While it is easy to list all the things that the Church has been late to the table on (civil rights, LGTBQ issues, etc), are there any items where the Church was on the right side early, or at least not behind everybody else?
When has the Prophet actual “seen around corners”? I’ll start with a couple and then you fill in some more.
First is the prohibition on tobacco. Even if the stories of Joseph putting tobacco in the Word of Wisdom because Emma was upset with cleaning up the mess that comes with chewing, it was ahead of most people on the health concerns. There was a few people in the 1600s who linked tobacco use to the same illnesses that chimney shoot caused. A few doctors in the 1700s saw a link with mouth cancer. But it really wasn’t until the late 1800s (long after the WofW), when the automated cigarette rolling machine was invented and people could buy rolled cigarettes and start to chain smoke the the detrimental effects of tobacco hit the masses. In 1920 a handful of doctors made the link to an increase in lung cancer. Putting on my TBM hat, maybe God, through Emma and her complaining about the mess on the floor, inspired the prohibition on tobacco use. But then he missed the mark on tea and coffee, so it’s really hard to put this in the win column as direct revelation from God, but there is no arguing it was ahead of its time.
Second is the emphasis on the Family in the 1960s and 70s. With the advent of Family Home Evening (which I’m a product of), the Church was early or maybe just in time to fight the culture wars, hippies, drugs, and the sexual revolution.
Maybe a third is the Church’s stand on immigration. While they won’t come out and say it explicitly, in my opinion they are very much against the MAGA immigration movement. I’ve seen talk (with no firm sources) that proponents of a Utah bill that would have denied benefits to illegal immigrants removed the bill from consideration when they learned the Church would be against it. (if any of you well connected readers have more info on this, please share!)
So can you think of anything the Church got right, and was ahead of the rest of the world? Or are my items above just an example of a broken clock being right twice a day?
Wheat & Tares 
I don’t know if it’s exactly what you’re talking about, but I always felt like the way the church embraced technology was inspired. Lots of institutions dragged their feet, or didn’t know how to effectively use new tech, but I remember streaming General Conference at a time where streaming was still a novel thing to do. And their web presence has always been strong, and classy (clean and formal, not overly flashy, etc) in my opinion.
While we all hate polygamy, there were a few issues on which the polygamy-era Church supported women’s equality.
This is from the Wikipedia article on Women’s suffrage in Utah:
Women’s suffrage was first granted in Utah in 1870, in the pre-federal period, decades before statehood. Among all U.S. states, only Wyoming granted suffrage to women earlier than Utah. Because Utah held two elections before Wyoming, Utah women were the first women to cast ballots in the United States after the start of the suffrage movement. However, in 1887 the Edmunds–Tucker Act was passed by Congress in an effort to curtail Mormon influence in the territorial government, disallowing the enfranchisement of the women residents within Utah Territory. Women regained the vote upon Utah statehood in 1896, when lawmakers included the right in the state constitution.
I also recall some anecdotes in which the Church supported sending the occasional polygamous wife back East for medical training while the other wives minded the children.
Well, seeing as LOTS of people were against those things that were addictive in the 1800s, I don’t think he was ahead of the game calling out the addictive stuff. And since half of it, the coffee and tea and wine have proven good for us, I don’t give any credit for seeing that people couldn’t stop using things like tobacco.
There were several health movements going on at the time. From suggesting more fiber in the diet to prevent masturbation and that bananas were poison to nightshade plants like tomatoes and potatoes were poisonous (and they are- ask my daughter) most of those movements were against alcohol tobacco, also. So, the fact that Joseph Smith adopted one of those ideas isn’t surprising.
Family has always been a “thing”, to conservatives, so I don’t give our prophets credit for jumping on that conservative bandwagon. That came with the feminist movement was was FIGHTING women’s rights to be human, so no, sacrificing women in the name of stay at home mother for “the family”, no that was backlash, not forward looking.
Ahead of the curb with $$$$$
The Kirkland bank fiasco predates SNLoans or the 2008 banking crisis.
Auto pay for tithing and being a leader in the subscription economy.
Having members funancially self fund service
Sport stadium (temple) anchored developments.
Consealing financial data from public and no financial transparency since 1959….now I find articles where corporate america is trying more of this.
Wall street is jealous and wants to know the LDS inc secrets
Here’s a quick that places the church ahead of the curve in theological terms:
The atonement covers little children automatically.
The atonement also covers people who live without law.
The vast majority of God’s children will be saved in a kingdom of glory.
To be a joint-heir with Christ means to become exalted like him.
The doctrine of eternal marriage wherein both men and women are exalted together.
The doctrine of eternal family and increase.
There are worlds without number created by God.
The doctrine of premortal existence.
The doctrine of intelligences.
The Godhead are three distinct individuals–and the Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bone.
The Savior is Jehovah of the Old Testament.
The restoration of the fulness of the gospel.
The restoration of the priesthood with living prophets and apostles and other officers.
The restoration of all charismatic gifts.
All individuals may become prophets unto themselves by virtue of the reception of the Holy Ghost.
The restoration and development of temple theology.
Hell is remorse of conscience–and it won’t last forever.
“Here’s a quick list…”
Jack, what are your sources for “Hell is remorse of conscience”? I agree with it largely, so I’m not asking contentiously, I just can’t think of talks/writings where I’ve heard it phrased that way
Plastic surgery
Polyamory – practiced it well before it became “in” again in the 2010’s
Education (with a giant asterisk) – for men studying money making fields like medicine, law, engineering, business
Church as a lucrative business
bhbardo,
I’ve landed on this particular definition by culling various scriptures together from the Book of Mormon–not always the best method for clarifying doctrine. But in this case, at least, it seems to hold up pretty well–IMO: Alma 42:18:
“Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.”
And it seems that our remorse can be magnified through continued disobedience: Alma 5:18″
“Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?”
And then King Benjamin speaks of that remorse in more forceful terms and *likens* it to the pains of hell: Mosiah 2:38:
“Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.”
And here Jacob also likens such pain to the torment of hell suggesting that the “lake of fire and brimstone” is a figurative expression: 2 Nephi 9:16:
“And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.”
Jack,
While some items of your list are unique and Joseph Smith was “ahead of the curve,” others are not:
“The atonement covers little children automatically” is not. Many Christians believe infants are saved by Christ’s grace. Catholics developed “age of accountability” ideas informally; many Protestants rejected infant damnation. It was highly debated in the 19th century.
“The atonement covers people who live without law” is also not. Romans 2 and Christian inclusivism teach God judges according to light received. Eastern Orthodoxy and some Catholics hold similar ideas about invincible ignorance.
LDS rejection of eternal damnation for most of humanity is not totally unique. Modern universalism also possesses similar thinking, and it predates Joseph Smith.
Don’t forget that Eastern Orthodox theosis teaches that humans may become “partakers of the divine nature.” Early church fathers like Athanasius said, “God became man so that man might become god.” LDS doctrine goes further in literal exaltation and eternal increase, but I’m not so sure the Church is holding to that doctrine as much as it has in the past. I think some would prefer to stuff that one in a closet.
As far as “eternal marriage wherein both men and women are exalted together”… Some mystical traditions idealize eternal union, but LDS sealing theology is unusually developed.
As far as “eternal family and increase,” ancient fertility and divine family concepts existed elsewhere. Medieval and modern Christians have speculated about multiple worlds; Jewish mysticism and some Islamic philosophers did too.
Premortal existence was taught by Plato, some Jews, Gnostics, and especially Origen. The idea that intelligences are uncreated and co-eternal with God had loose parallels in Neoplatonism and some Hindu thought.
“The Godhead are three distinct individuals; Father and Son have bodies” is not distinctive, social trinitarian ideas existed elsewhere, and anthropomorphic views of God existed among some early Christians and Jews. But an embodied Father is strongly LDS as far as I can tell. But some LDS today minimize the material body aspect that Joseph Smith envisioned.
“The Savior is Jehovah of the Old Testament” would puzzle most Christians who identify Jesus with Yahweh/Jehovah in some sense. LDS interpretation differs from strict Trinitarians only in that the Father and Son are fully separate beings.
More denominations claim a “restoration of the fulness of the gospel.” These would include Campbellites, Adventists, Pentecostals, and others.
“Restoration of priesthood with living prophets and apostles” is unique only in combination. Catholics and Orthodox claim apostolic succession; Pentecostals an charismatic Christians claim charismatic restoration and strongly emphasize gifts of healing, prophecy, tongues, etc.
“All individuals may become prophets unto themselves through the Holy Ghost” unique to LDS teachings? Don’t say that to Quakers, Pentecostals, and various Christian mystics who all emphasize direct revelation.
“Hell is remorse of conscience and won’t last forever”: Universalists, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and some Eastern Christians rejected eternal torment. LDS spirit prison and temporary hell resemble restorationist universalism.
I think the church deserves some credit for development of its welfare program during the great depression. I acknowledge and agree with some of the critiques of how it gets administered by some local leaders, but it really has helped a lot of people.
In a lesson about 6 months ago, the teacher asked the class to share any prophetic things they’ve seen in the last few decades. The only answer the class had was the Proclamation. I had some things to say about that, mostly about how our current church RSP has had a successful career, but that part of the document seems to get ignored. Then it was just crickets.
I think the church has some practices that are supportive of immigration, and a little bit of rhetoric, thanks to Elder Kearon. But how can one be supportive of something if they are not willing to come out and talk about it openly? When so many members are moving towards Christian Nationalism, lack of agreement starts to imply agreement. There are parables about being watchmen on the tower. The watchmen aren’t sounding the alarm on illegal immigration, even if, in their hearts, they don’t like the trend.
Jack,
I think the plain reading of “see around corners” is a predictive one, not an innovative doctrine one. The whole context of that phrase assumes a single man’s gift of seeing and predicting the future to prepare the members for something coming down the pipe no one can see. The closest thing I can think of that possibly fits this is the home center, church supported Come Follow Me stuff dropping right before COVID hits and sends everyone home. I think in most other things, they’ve been generally lagging behind and eventually catch up to what “the world” does.
What is the provenance of the adage that prophets see around corners? Did Sheri Dew start it, or did she adopt it from somewhere else?
I am a faithful Latter-day Saint, but I don’t see our prophet as one who often sees around corners. Rather, as see him as one who holds keys and is responsible for making decisions — in other words, the president of the church. He does his best to teach the people. In fact, it seems that me that while the church does try to plan ahead, and that is good, the fact is that the church is reactionary in that it responds to events that were not pre-revealed. The president of the church learns of happenings in the morning newspaper, so to speak, like the rest of us.
I know that Mormon folklore (we were called Mormons then) says the prophet got all the missionaries out of Germany before WW2 started, and how prophetic that was. But the thing is, EVERYONE who could read a newspaper knew the war was about to start, and they even knew the date. Really, the church waited way too long, maybe hoping for a miracle. But there was no miracle in getting the missionaries out — there was reaction and hurriedness, and I’m glad it was successful, but there was no revelation and no prophecy and no seeing around corners. At least, this is what the historical record shows
Quentin,
I agree that the LDS Church absolutely does deserve credit for helping a large number of people with its welfare program. However the origins of LDS thinking on that subject align with the Utopian socialists, including Robert Owen, which are early 19th century philosophers who perceived the inhumane excesses of the capitalism of that time period. The Church adopted at least of one of Owen’s conceptualizations, the cooperative movement. Do any among us remember “Zion’s Cooperative Mercantile Incorporated”?
Jack, you are answering a different question. You answered what doctrine is unique to the Mormon Church. That’s not what I asked. But I do give you credit for following the guidance given to missionaries to “answer the question they should have asked, not what they did ask”. This works great when the question asked has no good answers. Now, can you answer what things the Mormon Church has done or implemented before everybody else did that is now accepted by the majority as the right thing to do?
Nobody affiliated with LDS Inc created the cliche of seeing around corners. I am aware of at least two business management books with those words in the title.
“the prohibition on tobacco”
The Word of Wisdom actually says nothing about chewing or spitting tobacco. The body/belly proscriptions and prescriptions reflect contemporary medicinal uses that were being discussed at the time in newspapers. For the belly, it had been common to prescribe consuming a tobacco poultice to cause purging, and articles at the time began criticizing such a prescription. That the Smith family believed Alvin Smith died from medical malpractice after being prescribed calomel for purging, it would make sense that Joseph saw wisdom in this. For the belly, the WofW is obviously discussing topical medicinal use.
No account of Emma’s complaints exist prior to Brigham’s second-hand account over 34 years later, and I suspect he may have made it up to direct any blame at her.
The body/belly medicinal also best explains the hot drinks and alcohol. Drinking very “hot drinks” such as coffee, tea, and cocoa were being prescribed to restore balance to the body, and newspaper articles were condemning it, arguing that the hot drinks damage teeth, the esophagus, and stomach.
Anon,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree that there’s a fair amount of overlap between the restoration and other religious traditions–certainly Egyptians had a lot to say about some of the elements on my list. But I think what we have is something that is codified into unique doctrine through revelation and canonization. Maybe that’s not enough to create a real distinction in theological or philosophical terms–but even so, when we consider what the restored doctrine is with regard to (say) little children we’ve got a solid footing in commandments and ordinances as well as theological considerations. And so, while I’ve perhaps failed to adequately recognize other traditions, when I think of something like premortal life–I think what we have is a good case for the restoration being “ahead of the curve” by clarifying and expanding our understanding of certain realities. That is, rather than making the absolute first mention of them.
Bishop Bill:
“Can you answer what things the Mormon Church has done or implemented before everybody else did that is now accepted by the majority as the right thing to do?”
I don’t think I can. That said, while your question is certainly interesting–I don’t know exactly what it means. Yes, I think there are some things that the church does wonderfully well–but that shouldn’t be taken as proof positive of prophecy (though I certainly believe that the spirit of prophecy is at work in the church). The kinds of things that are uniquely instituted by the church tend be unimportant to most of the world–while the church often collaborates with other organizations in shared interests. So I’m not sure that we can get a good read on how well “prophets see around corners” — that is, without considering the kinds of things that typically go unseen by the world.
Jack,
If you aren’t seeing the “sees around corners” thing, then it sounds like it doesn’t really happen. And I’m not saying that to be glib. This “sees around corners” ability has long been considered a fruit of a real prophet. Prophets have always been viewed that way–or at least that is how their role has been taught. And yes, the world may not care, but the people that do very much care and should be able to see this fruit are the orthodox true believers–of which you are one (that is the impression I get anyway). I personally happen to agree with Richard Rohr when he says that a prophet’s role was mostly never to predict the future or “see around corners” like we’ve made out to be. But, we do love our magical thinking in the LDS church.
chrisdrobison,
I do believe that prophets can “see around corners.” It’s just that what they see usually isn’t the sort of thing that the world is looking for. And so as it relates to the OP’s question–I don’t think that the church’s apparent pattern of lagging behind is a big deal. I for one believe that temple sealings will literally save the world from annihilation. But the world has practically zero understanding or even interest in that practice. And yet–there it is–hidden in plain sight. And super innovative–for those who are interested the “mystical” elements involved in such a doctrine. And so, with that said, the real question is if such a practice is truly efficacious. Because if it is–then the church is way, way out in front of the world on that particular issue.
Jack raises a good point. The prophet does not see around the corners that the world is looking for: advance knowledge of Great Depression, WWII, 9/11, earthquakes, floods, wars, inventions, consumer trends, environmental disasters, etc. When people like Sheri Dew say the prophet sees around corners, she intends, and people hear, temporal protection from worldly events, and this might be deceptive. The sun shines, and the rain falls, upon the just and the unjust, except in rare circumstances. There is little or no warning of specific events before they happen, and that is fine. What matters is how people act in whatever circumstance: whether (a) with faith, love, patience, obedience, and grace, or (b) with selfishness, hate, lust for power, and greed.
The president of the church holds keys to administer the organization, and those are great keys indeed. He can get assistance, wisdom, and direction as he leads the organization. That is powerful. I sustain Pres. Oaks there. But it is rarely advance knowledge of specific events. Every family knows this. We have goals and aspirations, but we spend most of our time responding: fixing the broken car, sick child, food on the table three times daily, taxes, school projects, unreasonable kinfolk, dog jumped the fence, gping to aunt’s funeral, lost job. We respond to the world as it happens to us, more than we know the future and plan accordingly. Even the counsel to wear clean underwear just in case we wind up at the hospital does not foretell anything specific, yet it is good counsel. Same with the wise counsel to save for retirement, but no one knows if the money will make it to retirement.
Scriptures are full of prophets seeing around corners. Noah built a big boat. Joseph created the food storage department. Nephi predicted murder. Jesus knew where a colt would be. (Ok, maybe He just knew where a guy with a colt lived.) There are plenty of examples. Of course, the scriptures are a collection of the ‘greatest hits’ over thousands of years, so it probably gives a false impression about the frequency of such events.
Our insistence of having 15 prophets, seers and revelators naturally gives rise to the question of what they have prophesied, seen or revealed lately, and just why it is that we have/need 15 of them. I’d personally be happy if we spent more time thinking of having a President of the church that acts like any president of a company or country, and apostles that act as witnesses of Christ. These roles describe what they are actually doing the vast majority of the time.
Sheri Dew gave her talk titled “Prophets Can See Around Corners” at BYU-Hawaii in November 2022 (https://speeches.byuh.edu/devotionals/prophets-can-see-around-corners). A talk with that title and purpose, given to that audience, should surely provide some compelling examples of prophets seeing around corners:
1. Smartphones for missionaries. Dew claims the Church’s missionary department was reluctant to give smartphones to missionaries because of the problems they would cause. “But Elder Nelson never wavered in his conviction that missionaries could be taught to use the internet righteously and that they should have smartphones.” Because of Nelson’s ability to see around corners, missionaries were equipped to continue the work during the covid pandemic.
2. Hinckley’s debt warning. In the October 1998 General Conference, Gordon Hinckley counseled members to get out of debt. Dew decided to aggressively pay off her mortgage and was glad to have it paid off when the 2008 financial crisis hit ten years later.
3. Nelson’s #GiveThanks video. In September 2020, Dew’s communications team pitched Nelson on a pandemic-era message of hope for Church members. He told them to develop it further. The next day he called them back and said the idea wasn’t bad but wasn’t right–overnight he had received the impression that the message should go to the entire world, focus on gratitude, include a prayer for the world, and he specified the exact release date, time of day, and length. Dew notes the team would never on their own have recommended a video that long, nor a Friday release. The video came out November 20, 2020, and (in her telling) had unprecedented reach beyond the Church’s typical audience.
Dew had months to prepare this talk. The title is literally “Prophets Can See Around Corners.” She’s trying to persuade thousands of young adults that their prophets have special abilities to see things others cannot. And…this is really the best she can do?
1. Smartphones for missionaries. The Church was late getting smartphones into missionaries’ hands. Maybe Nelson did successfully battle a conservative missionary bureaucracy to make it happen, but it should have happened much earlier. The fact that most missionaries had a smartphone by the time covid hit hardly seems prophetic when nearly every human on earth had one in their hands before LDS missionaries did.
2. Hinckley’s debt warning. Telling people not to get in over their heads in debt because they could be burned in a coming financial crisis–with no timeline given–is not prophetic at all. I qualify as a prophet if that’s all it takes, and so do plenty of “worldly” financial advisors. Hinckley provided solid financial advice, but this was hardly seeing around corners.
3. Nelson’s #GiveThanks video. This is probably the most “prophetic” of the three examples, but it still feels weak. Nelson shifted the message, the length, and the release date and time. It was still almost exclusively Church members who paid attention, despite Nelson’s reframing for “the whole world.” Maybe it helped some people at the time, but it’s been largely forgotten since.
If this is the best evidence for modern prophets’ ability to see around corners, I am very unconvinced.
@Jack, these are the kinds of examples the OP is soliciting. Unique or unusual Mormon theology might possibly be “ahead of its time,” but there’s generally no way of proving Mormon theology is correct, and it’s certainly not the case that other Christian denominations have admitted they were wrong and the Mormons were right on any important theological issue. If you’re going to provide examples of prophets seeing around corners as the OP requested, your examples need to meet two criteria:
1. Counterintuitive teaching. The prophet taught something, or directed the Church to do something, before the need or correctness of doing that thing was evident.
2. Evidence the teaching was correct. Later events or shifts in public perception provide clear evidence that what the prophet taught really was prophetic.
Dew’s examples meet both criteria–well, she makes the case that they do. Nelson got smartphones into missionaries’ hands before covid hit, so he must have been seeing around corners. Hinckley knew some members were getting into too much debt, and his advice was vindicated when the financial crisis arrived. Nelson gave seemingly bad advice about a social media post and was proven right when it succeeded.
Your examples, on the other hand, mostly fail criterion #2. LDS prophets do teach things many other Christians perceive as incorrect, so I’ll grant criterion #1. But none of your examples meet criterion #2, because they’re purely theological and nothing has changed since to prove them correct. Believing Mormons embrace them just as they did when they were first taught, and pretty much no one else does. For your examples to meet criterion #2, you’d need to see other Christian denominations adopt the Mormon positions (which hasn’t happened) or solid evidence to emerge that the Mormon positions are “true” (which essentially never happens with theological claims, from any tradition).
What you’re really doing is moving the goalposts. You seem to acknowledge that prophets aren’t able to see around corners in the way Sheri Dew claims they can. You then dismiss her framing as something “the world” demands–as if that makes it bad or incorrect–and substitute a completely different question about unique aspects of Mormon theology.
But it isn’t “the world” making the claim that Mormon prophets can see around corners in the way Dew and this OP describe. We hear that message repeatedly from the Q15, local leaders, Sunday lessons, and Church publications. It originates from the Church, not from the world. Substituting unique aspects of Mormon theology as “the real” answer to the OP’s question is disingenuous.
mountainclimber479,
I think I’ve admitted to moving the goal posts–though perhaps I wasn’t clear.
To clarify: I believe that prophets do see around corners–but generally not in ways that are seen by the world. And certainly not in a way that will be understood by the world as miraculous. Many Latter-day Saints (including myself) believe that the proclamation on the family has become quite prophetic over time. But the world generally sees it as anything from an outdated statement on marriage and family formation to merely good advice on the subject–but nothing that they would view as “seeing around corners.”
And so while I agree with Sheri Dew–I think we have to understand that–as I remember–she was trying to bolster the faith of believers and not attempting to prove to the world that prophets have inspire foresight.
@Jack,
I appreciate you acknowledging the goalpost shift. But I think you’re still doing it.
I genuinely cannot see how anyone could read Dew’s talk and conclude she “was trying to bolster the faith of believers and not attempting to prove that prophets have inspired foresight.” Those aren’t alternatives in her talk–the first is being accomplished by means of the second. She titles the talk “Prophets Can See Around Corners,” grounds the claim doctrinally in Ammon and Amos 3:7, offers three case studies as evidence, and closes with “I don’t just believe this. I know it. I am an eyewitness to it.” The smartphones, debt warning, and #GiveThanks examples aren’t decorative–they’re the proof. In each case, a prophet allegedly foresaw the future, gave practical counsel, and was vindicated by events. The implication, which Dew makes explicit, is that wise people will follow the prophet because the prophet will keep doing this.
It’s also worth noting that Dew’s debt example collapses on inspection. In the very 1998 talk she cites, Hinckley said: “I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future.” He framed his counsel as general prudence rooted in current consumer debt levels, not foresight. Dew turned a prophet’s explicit disclaimer of prophecy into evidence of prophecy. That’s not a minor detail–it tells you something about how the foresight narrative gets manufactured.
Maybe you don’t find Dew’s examples persuasive. Maybe you can’t think of modern prophets seeing around corners in this way. But there’s no doubt that many faithful Mormons believe this is what prophets do–routinely, practically, in ways the world should be able to see. Mainstream Mormonism doesn’t restrict prophetic foresight to some private spiritual realm invisible to outsiders. That’s the framing you keep retreating to, and it’s not the framing the Church itself uses. The Q15 are sustained as “prophets, seers, and revelators” every six months, and the scriptural definition of a seer (Mosiah 8) explicitly includes knowing “things which are to come.”
That’s what makes this post interesting. Many Mormons strongly believe prophets regularly provide useful, predictive information–yet when anyone tries to produce examples, the supply runs dry almost immediately. Dew had months to prepare a talk built around the claim, and her three best examples included one where the prophet himself denied prophesying. That gap between the rhetoric and the record is the point of the OP, and reframing the question as “what unique theology have Mormons taught” or “how prophets routinely prophesy in ways the world isn’t interested in” doesn’t close the gap. It just changes the subject.
Oh yes–I admit that my shifting the goal posts changes the subject. And the reason for that is because I don’t think we can gage how inspired a prophet is by the way his message may or may not line up with the wisdom of the world. And on top of that I think we have to be careful not to assume that because the world may embrace a particular virtue without the need for prophetic foresight (as they suppose) that that makes the counsel of prophets irrelevant.
Someone mentioned (above) Noah’s Ark as a clear example of prophetic foresight–and I agree. But what I find interesting is that (according to the Book of Moses) what Noah preaches to the people is the doctrine of Christ–that is, rather than going around telling everyone that he’s going to build a boat in order to save those who believe.
That’s the sort of thing that I believe is happening with the Kingdom today. That is, the church preaches the doctrine of Christ–that’s what the world needs to hear. All the while the ongoing establishment of the church throughout the world serves as a place of refuge for the saints–an ark of sorts. Now *that’s* a product of prophetic foresight hidden in plain sight–IMO.
@Jack, “Oh yes–I admit that my shifting the goal posts changes the subject.” Perhaps consider saving your insights not related to the OP or any of the comments to other blog posts that are more relevant?
Perhaps–but I wanted to take a crack at getting folks to look in the direction where I believe the “see around corners” phenomenon is most visible. And in order to do that I had to shift the orientation of the playing field.
@Jack
I never thought the authors of the proclamation saw the future because they never saw me. I wasn’t even “around a corner,” I was a living, breathing human being at the time it was written!
Let’s compare that to what someone who saw nonbinary people around a corner could have said. A few possibilities:
– That people like me exist! A handful of gender specialists knew we did at that time but they kept that knowledge from the general public pretty well.
– That the consensus view of experts that kids like me didn’t need HRT was wrong and we would have better mental health outcomes on average if given a low dosage.
– That it’s not a sin to feel masculine if you were assigned female, feminine if you were assigned male, or both or neither in any case. Likewise it’s not a sin for your body to tell you that very specific gender-related changes would be good.
That’s just scratching the surface of what I would have expected.
Georgis, Jack,
“The prophet does not see around the corners that the world is looking for: advance knowledge of Great Depression, WWII, 9/11, earthquakes, floods, wars, inventions, consumer trends, environmental disasters, etc.”
I don’t know why we keeping say the world is looking for these things. I honestly don’t think the world frankly cares one wit about this. What they care about is orthodox religious believers taking these kinds of things to extremes and causing great harm (e.g. conservative Christians taking us all the hell right now because they think God chose Trump to usher in the second coming). These predictive features are very much what TBM members are looking for from the prophet. Especially here in Utah, orthodox members are obsessed with this. Visions of Glory was a massive success here precisely because of its predictive undertone. There is a massive end-times culture here myopically focused on what prophets have predicted. Pres Nelson was so focused on the second coming. The whole temple building craze is precisely because of this second coming obsession.
“To clarify: I believe that prophets do see around corners–but generally not in ways that are seen by the world.”
Ok…..but, if this is really true then it is the members that should see it. You said, “I don’t think we can gage how inspired a prophet is by the way his message may or may not line up with the wisdom of the world.” But, you have to gage somehow. That is fundamental to the “by their fruits, ye shall know them.” And pretty much every scriptural analogy on fruits judges the goodness by how well something thrives. The data is pretty obvious right now–we are not thriving. I bet if we could study what is actually causing the growth in African membership we’d find that it is actually the welfare (i.e. jobs, money, food, education, health code, structure) and community part that is having the real impact here. We’ve got to stop redirecting to “the world” as it seems obvious to me that TBMs (and the church institution in general) really don’t know what “the world” really cares about other than the vilified imaginary tale of it constantly force fed to us. It’s a boogeyman at this point used rhetorically to keep people in and not a great reflection of reality. So let’s focus on the “in” crowd because that is who should be seeing real “see around corners” results. And it sounds like you, Jack, don’t see any, but just assume they are there because you are being told it should exist and as a true believer, it your duty to make that work absent any evidence.
The Noah’s ark example is a bit silly because, 1) if we’re going to talk about it, let’s talk about the original text here, not a JS revision, because we actually have source text for this and variations anciently we can look at 2) in the “original”, Noah said absolutely nothing to anyone 3) overwhelmingly in the OT, prophets were focused on calling out injustice, vulnerability, poverty, and inequality–not faith, repentance (as we understand it now), baptism and HG. The doctrine of Christ (I’m using the Nephi definition) didn’t exist at all, that is a modern innovation. Even Christ himself in the NT was way more aligned what the OT prophets cared about. Religion has always done better when it has been focused on lifting people, helping them thrive in real life and providing a community as opposed to building opulent builds that only the most faithful can enter, because that just creates inequality and perpetuates a class system the ancient prophets decried. 4) where is this actually happening in real life.
And I supposed we’ll just have to disagree on the family proc being prophetic. I think there are *some* good things in there, but a lot of it, like so many things declared by prophets of our church, haven’t aged well. Go back far enough and you have Pres Taylor saying polygamy is eternal and we can’t be saved without it. That was, in effect, an earlier proclamation on the family. Guess what you don’t need any more to be saved–polygamy.
It appears the church is finally now setting up processes to start giving money to important humanitarian orgs regularly. Maybe this is the start of getting back to what Jesus really cared about.
@Jack,
Patrick Mason is perhaps one of the Church’s most effective apologists these days. Here’s what he had to say about people who try to tap dance around difficult issues by attempting to “shift the orientation of the playing field” rather than honestly and directly addressing the issues:
“I prefer a straightforward approach rather than tap dancing around unpopular or difficult issues, and believe that we gain more respect by being honest and confident than shifty and defensive.” (https://fromthedesk.org/10-questions-patrick-mason/)
I believe that you have repeatedly done the opposite of what Mason is encouraging. You love to tap dance around the issues: you continually attempt to move the goalposts, you use intentionally vague or obtuse language, you fail to disclose early in a discussion that there is no chance that you can be persuaded on an issue because of your firm belief in prophetic infallibility, you bear your testimony, etc. in order to try to defend your positions here. Many, many people who leave the Church have stated that these types of explanations/apologetics actually caused or accelerated their departure from the Church. In other words, your attempts to have people “look in (another) direction” may be hurting your cause (to save people’s faith, I guess?) a whole lot more than it’s helping it.
I guess all I can say at this point is that I believe prophets do see around corners–just not always in the way we think they should see around corners.
Jack, thanks. I sustain our president of the church, too. For me, the question isn’t whether you “believe prophets do see around corners–just not always in the way we think they should see around corners.” For me, the question is, when Sheri Dew and others say that prophets see around corners, do they intent to convey to others that prophets will see catastrophes before they happen? will they see war before it starts? will they see pestilence or famine before it begins? The reason some people teach that prophets see around corners is to persuade them to listen always in all things to what the prophet says, as if every word from his lips is the warning from the watchman in the tower. But history seems to show that our prophets have not seen a lot of world events, and if they have seen them they have not warned about them. So would you agree that when we say that prophets see around the corners, we should also teach people not to wait for prophets to warn us if impending danger? That when the danger comes, the prophet likely won’t know in advance, and we should not expect any warning? In other words, the prophet sees around corners in long-term, spiritual matters, but not in temporal dangers or threats? They can warn of impending tragedy, but LDS history shows that we don’t get warnings on temporal things like war, terrorist attacks, earthquakes, floods, drought, economic depression, etc.
Yeah, Georgis, I agree that prophets tend to warn of cataclysmic events more generally than specifically–though they can be very specific when need be–but that’s pretty rare, IMO. IMO, when they “see around corners” it typically has to do with keeping the Kingdom moving in the right direction–as when the church published the Come Follow Me curriculum–a home centered study guide–just in time to help the saints stay on track through Covid. That was definitely a product of prophetic foresight–even though (as per the OP) it would be difficult to categorize as something that the world didn’t come up with first.
Could someone explain to me the miraculous transformation that is the Come Follow Me curriculum? And specifically, how is it different from the scores of previous lesson manuals put out by the Church? Yes, it moved every single church lesson onto the same schedule. But beyond that . . . .? To me it is just another lesson manual with even less material in it. If COVID had happened before Come Follow Me, all it would have taken is a letter from the bishop that says, ‘here’s where you can find lesson manuals. Church is cancelled, but we can all still study the gospel at home.’ (Not that it should even take a letter from the bishop; they’ve literally been telling us to do exactly this for my entire life.)
Tobacco: So, the Church got it on smoking. It’s still ridiculous that coffee and tea are no-nos but soda and anything else sugary get an A+.
Also, the Northeast was ripe with this exact same health code in the 1830s. Sylvester Graham, the inventor of the graham cracker, was preaching the Word of Wisdom prior to it being the Word of Wisdom.
Families: You’re right. Emphasis on families: keep the wife and mother at home; the less heard from her the better. And, if anyone in your family is even close to gay, it’s as good as incest and bestiality. Families CAN be together forever, but please see our list of caveats.
Immigration: What I’ve noticed is those in other religions like the Pope, Bishop Budde and many other clergy speaking out against the Trump administration’s policies while the LDS Church cowers in the background, so Trump doesn’t treat them like the U.S. government did back in the polygamy days. And the Church calls for treating immigrant humanely, but does not open their buildings to them, choosing ICE over immigrants. Jesus called for action, not words. The Church tells its members not to make political statements in their talks, but Jesus was political. That’s why the Romans crucified him.
I’m sorry. Imagine patting your church on the back for getting smoking and families right, while they completely shit the bed on civil rights for decades. Hey, I know LGBTQ members have committed suicide in droves over the Church’s policies, and women and children are still suffering today because our first two prophets’ wife-having was insatiable, but we say treat immigrants right, which is in the Old Testament it’s so ahead of its time.
Let me put it this way. I made a friend a few years after the proclamation came out. A member of the Church. They were one of the kindest and most empathetic people you’ll ever meet.
I don’t think either of us were prepared mentally for the possibility that we’d ever meet someone like us. It was pretty shocking, really. The way they explained what gender was like for them was just exactly like it was for me, and that made my jaw drop. I was speechless.
I could tell the proclamation caused them pain. They stifled a cry the time we talked about it. They had a hard life growing up, full of trauma and not having anyone they could trust. They really didn’t need any extra pain added to it.
It just seems to me like someone who saw around corners would have chosen to leave the 99 and minister to my friend with their writing instead of writing something that rubbed salt in my friend’s raw wounds.
@Former Nonbinary Sunbeam and @Mike make good points. While we struggle to think of examples of where prophets truly saw around corners in tangible ways like Sheri Dew claims they do, it is really, really to think of examples where prophets claimed to see around corners, but didn’t: Family Proclamation, priesthood/temple race ban, polygamy, coffee and tea, birth control, “I’m a Mormon” versus “victory for Satan”, the POX etc.
I agree that a prophet can see an immediate danger and give a warning, but that is relatively rare. Here’s my problem with Sis. Dew and her book she is selling: corners usually represent immediate potential dangers. Teaching that a prophet sees around corners conveys the message that we should listen to the prophet n all things because we all have many corners immediately ahead of us, and he will warn us of any and all dangers, with specificity. That simply is not true most of the time. Instead, he warns of dangers generally, and the wise will listen and they will make decisions on how to proceed as they approach the corners in their lives.
I think that “prophets see around corners” can mislead people, because some (too many) people, when one says corners, they think of the corners in their immediate proximity, not high-level long-term destination, and they think of real-life threats behind those corners like criminals, and car crashes, open manholes, and other physical dangers. At least that is how the message rings in my brain: corners connotes immediacy, because I turn corners all the time. I am leery of cult of personality, and I am leery of individuals not thinking and working through their daily problems with prayer, Holy Ghost, scriptures, faith… I am thankful for a prophet, but I think that some church members almost worship him more than God, or at least seem to. As church president, he holds those vital priesthood keys, and he keeps the organization moving forward, for which I am grateful. For the specific corners in an individual’s life, where dangers may lurk, the Holy Ghost might be a better guide. But then is the purpose of life to avoid calamities, or to respond with love and faith when they happen?
I am not persuaded that the president of the church sees around corners. He is a man, an old man but a good and wise man, who tries to teach the people and who makes decisions to guide the church organization. He acts in his president-of-the-church office far more than in his prophet office. He can (and must) act in his president-of-the-church office nearly every day, but he can only act in his prophet office when our God gets directly involved with revelation. In my mind, I differentiate between revelation from God and inspiration from the Holy Ghost, and think these should not be conflated.
I agree with Elder Stephen L. Richards, who used these words in his April 1932 general conference address (my emphasis in bold):
“The Church believes in new and continuous revelation, and ever holds itself in readiness to receive messages from the Lord. To that end the people sustain the President in particular, and others of the General Authorities, as the media through which God’s word may be delivered. A
revelation to our living president would be as readily accepted and become as much a part of our scripture as the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph.
“In the absence of direct communication from heaven, however, the Church and its people must be guided by the revelations already given and the wisdom and inspiration of its leadership. I have great confidence in the wisdom of the presiding authorities in all departments of church service, first, because they hold the Holy Priesthood, and second, because I know them to be good men. There is virtue in the endowment of the Priesthood. It brings to men who receive it and appreciate it an enlarged conception of iife and an altruism that is Christlike in character. It brings spiritual knowledge and power, and the judgment of a presiding officer holding the Priesthood is generally an inspired judgment. It is the product of noble motive and fervent prayer.”
DaveW,
“Could someone explain to me the miraculous transformation that is the Come Follow Me curriculum?”
There wasn’t a huge transformation to the manual in terms of content. The church sought to create a Sunday School manual that would be more family friendly–and so the changes involved had to do with formatting more than anything else. And I can see how that would’ve been a great blessing to folks who were stuck at home teaching Sunday School lessons to their families–especially with small children–during Covid. And so the real miracle is in the timing of its publication–2019.
When I was growing up the church published family home evening manuals which were much richer and with more content than the Come Follow Me manual.
Ah yes, The Miracle of the Improved Formatting. I hope the missionaries are telling everyone that the Prophet of the Restauration was followed up by the Prophet of Indenting and Typeface.
oof. “Restauration”? Did Joseph open a burger joint? (I wouldn’t put it past him, he tended to be involved in everything.) But clearly, that should have been the Prophet of the Restoration. I hate it when I ruin a good joke.
One could draw several conclusions about the implementation of Come Follow Me – here is a summary from the Church News 28 AUG 2019 – the development of this gospel study program started with the new Sunday School general presidency that was called in 2014. They were assisted by church curriculum writers and each lesson was reviewed and edited and then sent out to be tested in stakes worldwide. Also involved were employees of the Priesthood and Family Department, General Authorities, and other general auxiliary officers before it was tested by stakes around the world. Brother Brian Ashton from the Sunday School presidency said of this project “I feel gratitude that the Lord allowed us to participate…hopefully [this] will help bring people in the Church closer to the Savior.”
At what point do aging prophets cease to see around corners?
See the recent Salt Lake Tribune article regarding ideas that Apostle Hugh B. Brown had about this.