There are many critics of the LDS Church’s wealth. Is the LDS Church guilty of serving God and Mammon? I asked Dr. Michael Quinn that question, and I think you’ll be surprised by his answer.
Michael: The accusation is there, but typically it comes from people who don’t recognize that the church makes no distinction between God and Mammon. The church is a money making operation, but it plows the money into the building of the Kingdom of God on Earth, which is a Mormon phrase that most members, even disaffected ones, will recognize. A member of the church, whether former member or current member in good faith, may feel uncomfortable with this huge portfolio that involves billions of dollars a day in transactions over the computer with only one of its investment houses.
It may be [that] members of the church and devout members and certainly ex-members of the church are uncomfortable, or may be uncomfortable with the commercial real estate that produces and the commercial investments in mines and oil, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which would be fossil fuels. For people who are concerned about that. And the Church has heavily invested in fossil fuels. Nonetheless, it’s a part of building the Kingdom of God.
We’re going to talk about the City Creek Mall. The LDS Church paid $1.5 Billion dollars to make it. Michael Quinn says that this enormous income allows the church to spend enormous sums of money to support LDS Church growth. It’s not just in poor countries like South America and Africa. Quinn says that the LDS Church has deficit spending even in rich countries like England.
Michael: In 2006, the LDS Church headquarters gave a cash supplement to the church in the United Kingdom of nearly half a billion dollars, $450,000,000 and change. And that was in one year to one of the countries in which the church has had a significant presence since 1837. It is an industrial country. It is not a third world country. Its members are generally thought of as being comfortable. This is not the case in any country. Mormons can be poor even in the United States and there are poor members of the church who live on government welfare and church welfare in the United Kingdom. Well, the tithe payers in the United Kingdom couldn’t pay all of their responsibilities, all of the building and the maintenance and the missionary work and everything else, the aid to the really poor that occurs in the United Kingdom. And so in one year the church gave nearly half a billion dollars. I mean, I don’t know the total number, but I know it’s more than 100 countries throughout the world the church is in.
In third world countries, and there are at least 50 and there could be far more than that. The church, and I have the reports to demonstrate this, is paying 90 to 95 percent of their expenses are being paid in cash from church headquarters on a year by year basis in the developing country or what in during the Cold War used to be called the third world. The church could not do this if it didn’t have billions of dollars, not only of tithing, but of commercial income from for-profit businesses, which the City Creek Mall is intended to be for.
Is it true that the City Creek Mall is subsidizing churches in poor countries?
GT: So let me ask this question. I’ll phrase it this way. Would it be accurate to say that the City Creek Mall, and maybe even Victoria’s Secret, is subsidizing some of these buildings in Nigeria?
Michael: Without question. I mean, in the book, I lay out those that I’m aware of through the Internet. And there is a remarkable openness on the Internet to the Church’s investments in a variety of areas, whether it’s land where the produce is primarily going for the welfare program. But what they can’t use for the welfare program would spoil if they didn’t sell it to the general public. And that’s for profit. So there are profits that even Deseret Ranches of Florida, which is a welfare outfit in its original definition, it’s also for-profit and it’s making millions, maybe billions.
Dr. Michael Quinn has noted that church members no long pay building fund, ward budget, and many other expenses due to this large income. Is there enough income to support a paid ministry? Is there a scriptural prohibition against paid ministers?
Michael: Even though the 19th century church frequently used the insulting phrase “hireling priests” for Catholic and Protestant ministers, the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants which maintain these “thus sayeth the Lord” documents that Joseph Smith provided during his lifetime. They provide for a paid ministry. They say the laborer is worthy of his hire and that could justify having a thorough paid ministry all the way down to the local level. However, there has always been this discomfort with providing for the living of the leadership of the church, whether it’s general leadership or the local leadership.
How much money does the LDS Church spend in foreign countries?
Michael: In 2006, the LDS Church headquarters gave a cash supplement to the church in the United Kingdom of nearly half a billion dollars, $450,000,000 and change. And that was in one year to one of the countries in which the church has had a significant presence since 1837. It is an industrial country. It is not a third world country. Its members are generally thought of as being comfortable.
Could/will LDS income ever support a paid local ministry? What are your thoughts that the LDS Church is “a money making operation?” Is the LDS Church serving God and Mammon?
Wheat & Tares 
Michael Quinn fascinates me. He understands Church finances better than anyone outside of the Church accounting department (and arguably better than some in that department) and probably has as much reason as anyone to malign the Church, and yet he doesn’t spin that knowledge to paint the Church as a greedy or otherwise nefarious institution,
On the broader topic, I think the Church’s investments will allow it to do things we haven’t seen the Church do before. This financial success is relatively recent, but I think the Church has built up a big enough reserve to start taking on new missions and programs soon.
As others have argued before, I see much of this as a hedge against the increasing stagnation/diminution in developed country Church growth, both in new members baptized and in lower birthrates among the LDS faithful. Tithing just ain’t gonna cut it going forward.
Mormonism, if only viewed as a life style, produces a well being in its adherents that is extraordinary. As a group, Mormons measures at the top for quality of life in all the important areas measured by social scientist.
The fact that the church is financially successful is part of the American dream. Of course, anti-mormons don’t want the church to be successful by any measure.
Regardless of Michael’s “spin” on this….I still find the practice really distastful and “two-faced”. I don’t recall reading in the New Testament and learning that in addition to Christ teaching and ministering throughout the land…that he also ran a fleet of fishing boats, and a bakery for making bread; all in an effort to generate monies to assist him in his efforts.
My parents struggled all their life, and had just enough money to pay for needs. They always paid a full tithe. I can’t help but wonder, had they been counseled to pay on net or surplus tithing and save the rest how much better their retirement would be, and how so many burdens and stresses would’ve been alleviated. As it is now, their situation is grim. We will be caring for them completely. It’s difficult to not see the wealth of the church as robbing the poor to…build more extravagant temples for a few people far away.
I must say that I was a bit surprised to hear Michael say there is no difference in the LDS Church between God and Mammon. On the other hand, I’m familiar with quote by Brigham Young saying that “all things are spiritual.” It is an interesting point of view that I can’t say I’m totally comfortable with.
I was also interested to hear what Quinn said about global warming, and fossil fuels. He said there is no scriptural prohibition against doing business in fossil fuels, but he wishes the church would divest from that and treat it like they do tobacco stocks.
God AND Mammon?
Mammon. No question. None.
My family recently experienced first-hand an example of what the Church can do with adequate resources: touring the historic sites in Nauvoo and viewing the two Pageants. Buildings and property are being continually restored, and the Pageants were wonderful to see; all free of charge.
That costs a lot of money, and I, for one, am glad the Church has the means to bring it about. Sadly, many “progressives” only look to the Church’s history to denigrate it.
For me…LDS History “just is what it is”….and finally the truth of many things are coming to light. That reality doesn’t make it good or bad – but people will internalize what is being learned and make their own judgements as to how they are going to change their views; or not.
Not a Cougar, and there is more to the story. Most of the Church’s growth is happening south of the equator in developing countries. This growth requires substantial financial support. Thus, tithing payments will plateau, and support activities will continue to increase. Completely changing the Church’s financial dynamic.
I’m okay with the Church being prudent in financial matters — indeed, I much appreciate it.
Another changing dynamic — in the “rich” USA, fewer members are retiring with guaranteed stable pensions — so fewer members will be financially able to serve senior missions. I don’t know if Church leaders are aware of this changing dynamic, but I hope so.
I’m ambivalent towards the City Creek Mall and other businesses. While I agree that aspects of the mall are distasteful and that it’s impossible to imagine Christ as directing business ventures – I do see the need for money to run church operations and I understand the desire to keep downtown SLC clean. If tithing doesn’t pay the bills, as a church we may have to make some difficult decisions. I like nice church buildings and temples, and I like that my kids can get a decent and inexpensive education at church schools. I like that the LDS church doesn’t seem like a fly-by-wire worship service meeting out of high school cafeterias.
Ji – that’s an interesting thing to point out. My ward has a good population of retired couples, and none have served missions outside the local area. We also have a large population of retired but still working. It will be interesting to see if any of them will be in a financial position to serve a mission once they retire. I can think of one couple in particular that I know would love to do so, but they’ve been very open about their difficult financial situation. This is probably a topic for an entire different post, but I wonder what others are seeing in their wards.
It is sad to me that it all comes down to money.
A more fundamental issue is the lack of financial transparency. Church financial details are no longer disclosed in General Conference as they once were. Where does the money come from to fund Kirton McConkie, the LDS Church’s main legal firm? From Church-owned business profits? Or from tithing? What about out-of-court financial settlements with abuse victims, with NDAs? Money can be used for many wise purposes, but the love money is the root…
I think Dr. Quinn’s work on this issue could’ve been more believable/dependable had he partnered with someone with experience and background in corporate finance.
I always come back to D&C 78:6. “If not equal in earthly things, one cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things…”
If Mormons and Utah do well on socioeconomic indicators, it’s because of the Gospel. But if Utah’s youth suicide rate tripled in the years since Prop 8, it’s obviously because of the altitude.
I don’t necessarily approve of all the ways in which the church spend money, but that a non-profit uses profitable business to subsidize its work doesn’t bother me. Luke 8 tells us Jesus’s ministry was financed by “certain women.”
Anne
Many in Europe pay on net ….many.
I don’t think tithing was ever designed to “ rob the poor” I think the scriptures support this idea.
I have always wondered how much tithing was effected by American economics in forming the idea of net payments…..many countries do not get a tax benefit from paying tithing at all.
And European socialist countries like Denmark and Sweden have very high income tax, VAT, property tax, etc.
Hey Jewel Fox, what is prop 8?
What does a California proposition about dialysis have to do with this?