What is a reasonable expectation for free labor from our fellow Mormons? It seems that different people have very different ideas of what is reasonable to request.
Now that we own a small business, I’ve also noticed that certain types of labor–usually lower skilled labor where the majority of the work is “manpower”–are considered a right rather than paying a company to do these things. In fact, when we opened our business, we joked that we would never have opened it in Utah where the main competitor was the Relief Society. Friends of ours had opened an elder care business there, and they found that the work their staff did was often in competition with wards’ free labor pool, not a great situation to be in if you are trying to grow a business.
Other types of free labor requests I’ve seen in Mormon congregations are things like yard care (particularly laying sod, general landscaping), construction clean up or debris removal, and of course, the dreaded moving. “Women’s labor” is usually just things like taking in meals, although with services like post-mates and door dash, this is also becoming less necessary. Occasionally, I’ve seen sisters be asked to do house cleaning for free for someone in need, although this has been more rare than other types of requests. But of course, much has been said about the church expecting members to clean the building rather than hiring janitors (as was done when I was growing up).
None of this is terribly surprising. We all do many different types of service in our wards, including all the volunteer hours we spend in our callings, and the old visiting/home teaching program that’s being ratcheted up a bit with the new ministering program. We are there to assist one another. We also believe in the law of consecration, although we don’t define it very well. Early Christian societies believed in sharing their goods so that there was less class distinction between them, a system that is socialism, except that we can’t say that or the right-wingers in our wards’ heads will explode.
Coach John Wooden really seemed to understand the right level of help we should give others. He was very focused on caring for others and teaching his players to care, and that character was more important than talent. He famously said:
If you can’t feed a hundred people, then feed just one.
And he exemplified another of his famous sayings:
Unless a life is lived for others, it is not worthwhile.
He was inspired by Abraham Lincoln who remarked that
The worst thing you can do for those you love is to do the things they can and should do for themselves.
It’s certainly a time-honored tradition within religious communities to serve one another’s needs on a voluntary basis, but there is still a wide variety in what is considered an “appropriate” request. Here are a few examples I can think of that I’ve either heard about from others or have observed firsthand.
Which of these do you think are reasonable? Which do you think are not?
- A wealthy retired couple requests that the Elders Quorum provide at least a dozen men to come do yard work for them while they are out of town attending to a family funeral. It’s during the heat of summer in Arizona. They own a large estate and can afford to hire a landscaping service.
- Two families request moving assistance: one is a family with physical disabilities moving from one small apartment to another. The other family is moving into a $2 million home and wants help moving in.
- A family is moving to a new city. The employer pays full relocation expenses, including a moving and unpacking service, but the family wants to pocket that money and asks the ward to do it for them.
- A couple wants to improve the resale value of their home by adding a full sprinkler system and laying sod. They prefer to use the ward’s free labor rather than pay for labor so that they are sure to get a return on their investment.
- An elderly widow can no longer drive and needs rides to the grocery store and doctor’s appointments. She has adult children living with her who are able to do it, but she doesn’t want to burden them, so she asks the Relief Society to do it.
- A woman requests help with her resume to help her get a higher paying job. She doesn’t take feedback, and has very limited computer skills. She wants you to make her sound better than she is by exaggerating her skills and doing it for her.
- A ward member buys a $15 silent auction for pet sitting. Her requirements are so onerous and specific, and the driving distance is such that it requires 21 man hours to fulfill the obligation.
Another type of free labor request that sometimes happens is when someone who does a type of service professionally is asked by the ward to do it for free or occasionally at a greatly discounted rate. This is probably not a big deal depending on the scope of the request: is it a one-time request? is it for the ward as a whole or for individuals? is it in direct competition to their paid business? do they mind offering their service for free, considering it part of their volunteer work?
On the one hand, wards should be communities that include some networking opportunities as well as opportunities to serve. That’s how communities work. But on the other hand, some services are more prone to be requested on a free or discounted basis. Consider the following types of professionals who might be requested to perform services for free or at a discount:
- Trades like electrician, handyman, pool care, landscaping, house cleaning.
- Higher end trades like restoration work, construction, or air conditioning / heating.
- Professions like accounting, legal advice, medical or dental advice or care.
- Individuals who do personal services like therapy, business or professional consulting or personal trainers.
Are some of these more likely to be approached for freebies? Are some of these more at risk of being done free by the ward, competing with local businesses?
Recently, it came to my attention that my current ward objects to providing service if it occurs on a Sunday. This surprised me a little bit because Jesus specifically taught that we should help others in need on a Sunday. Mormons refer to this as your ox being in the mire, although the scriptural reference doesn’t actually use those words:
Luke 14: 5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the asabbath day?
So, clearly it would be more scriptural to say someone’s ass is in a pit, not that their ox is in the mire.
Years ago, we woke up on a Sunday morning to find that our upstairs had flooded. The carpet went squish when we stepped on it. We were supposed to be teaching at church, and we had to run to the church to hand off and find coverage, but then leave again immediately to go to Home Depot and get some drying equipment. A ward member who owned a construction business had some equipment, and he gladly offered to bring it down and assist right away. He even patched up our ruined drywall ceiling, which we paid for, but we suspected was greatly discounted by him. Other ward members immediately rallied to come help with getting the water up. We were kind of clueless, so this help was very welcome. People put us at ease, and were eager to run out with us to help.
In another ward I was in years ago, one of the members of the bishopric came home after church to see that his neighbors were having a sod-laying party. They were providing beers to the workers, and had several people there helping, although it’s always a big project, and nobody will ever turn away more help. These weren’t great neighbors. They often had loud parties, came in loudly at late hours, and were otherwise irritating. After sitting in his house for a short while, the bishopric member started to feel his conscience get to him. He shouldn’t begrudge his help, even if it was Sunday, even if he wasn’t thrilled with those particular neighbors. He changed clothes and went out and helped anyway. As a result, this family (who turned out to be inactive LDS although he didn’t realize it at the time) changed their opinions of the local ward and decided to start coming back to church. They felt accepted and welcomed because here was someone willing to meet them where they were and serve them without conditions.
Another bishop I had years ago came by the house one Sunday afternoon asking if I had a twelve-pack of Diet Coke for one of the sisters in the ward. I was a bit surprised by this request, but I went inside and grabbed one out of the drink fridge to give to him. He said he could tell she needed one, and that if anyone had one to spare, it was me! (Guilty as charged). It was a silly thing, but a thoughtful gesture that I suspect she will still remember.
Perhaps the objection is to helping people who really don’t need it, and the request just happens to be for a Sunday. Some folks have told me about situations in which the person requesting help is abusing the privilege through their own behavior, such as creating the need in the first place, expecting repeated help on something they should be able to handle with family members’ help, or simply not planning ahead. For example, showing up to help someone move, then finding that they haven’t actually packed anything yet or are still in the middle of doing so can be frustrating to the free labor pool. And the other issue that sometimes arises is people who are bossy and rude to the free helpers, an issue that I’ve unfortunately experienced directly as well as heard about from others. Some people simply feel entitled and ungrateful for the sacrifice of those helping them.
Finding the right balance between service and co-dependency in our volunteer church is a tricky one.
- How do you think we are doing overall at helping those in need without enabling abuse of the free labor pool?
- What are the worst examples of abuse of free church labor that you have seen?
- Does you ward object to helping someone on a Sunday who needs it?
- Have you ever been helped out of a tight spot by your fellow Mormons when you didn’t expect it?
Discuss.
There are several principles at play—
– the laborer is worthy of his hire
– we should be self-reliant
– love our neighbor
– be honest in our dealings with others
– and so forth
In any particular case, different principles may suggest different approaches. In an identical situation, two honorable people may make different honorable decisions about helping someone else. Each of us should do what is right, and allow all others the same privilege of doing what they think is right.
My point: Any service offered should be seen as a gift. If someone gives a gift, that is nice. If someone else does not give a gift, that’s okay, because no one has a “right” to a gift from someone else. Anyone errs who demands a gift, and anyone errs who thinks less of a neighbor who doesn’t offer a gift. We should not use guilt or other coercion to extract gifts from our neighbors. We should love our neighbors even if they don’t give gifts. If I want to help my neighbor, that is good. I may ask others to help, but I should not esteem less someone who does not accept my invitation to help my neighbor. We should not despise a neighbor who did not help when we asked for help — and most certainly, we should not despise a neighbor who did not help when we did not ask (when we felt entitled and expected help without asking). If I need help, I need to ask. I should love my ward members even if they don’t help. Every offering is a gift, and no one can demand a gift from a neighbor. Every gift should be appreciated.
We are in the midst of this and let me set the stage —- My husband is devout and I have left. We are moving.
We are downsizing. Our household goods will be in storage for a month or two while we renovate the new place.
I rented a large storage unit that is 1/2 mile away from our present house. We have moved all smaller household goods into that unit so that we can have access to them as needed during the 2 months of renovation. Everything that had been on the second floor of our home has been moved downstairs.
Refrigerator, washer/dryer, sofas, dressers, 2 beds and a table are the things left to be moved.
The local large moving company wants to charge us $2200 a month for storage. I think that is too much for what we want moved and stored. . The storage facility we already are using offers a free truck and our storage unit has room for our furniture.
The ward offered moving help. I’m not really comfortable with that. I asked the ward for the names of a couple young men that I could pay $30/hour to come load and unload the truck. I thought it would take 2 hours. Instead, the ward offered free moving help in exchange for food items I am known for.
An unemployed member contacted us separately. He is available to help at any time. I am expecting to use his help, load everything up, pay him for his time and then simply tell the ward “thank you” but it is all taken care of thanks to Brother Unemployed.
I don’t plan to mention the payment.
We want to hire help. We do not want to offend or alienate anyone. We do not want to pay the large moving company fees..
Well the church certainly encourages “self sufficiency” and I see no reason “moving” would be excluded. Very few people have an issue with helping those really in need or down on their luck – especially if the show their appreciation.
I think “how well are we helping w/o enabling” varies widely depending on the leaders and just how often help is requested.
My wife has been RS president a few times and she on several occasions she turned down people’s request for service as she felt the requests were taking advantage of others that were also stressed and stretched thin.
I am not sure it is worth my time to elaborate on several examples of people taking advantage of free labor, but I have certainly seen a few.
I would rather sweat through a few shirts helping someone on Sunday than sit through even 10 minutes of Gospel Doctrine when they are covering (cherry picking) the Old Testament. I recall reading that during a snowstorm in a heavily Mormon area the ward went out and shoveled the entire ward. One of the youth said to the bishop, “This is SO much better than church.” Out of the mouths of babes.
I remember as a kid we were not well off and almost never went out to eat. I remember when my mom was under the weather and I was excited that we might actually get some food from a restaurant. Then the RS would show up with food that often tasted odd and I wasn’t happy about it. I was too young and selfish to see the love and sacrifice being offered.
I also had a good friend that was just a bit on the well to do side and he said he would intentionally NOT request labor/repairs from Mormons as “you get what you pay for.” He didn’t want a member discount and a less than perfect job performed. A luxury that is great when you can afford it.
I do remember hearing a story told of I think one of the prophets when they were young. A beggar came to the door an their mother (I think a widow) gave them some sandwiches. They then saw the sandwiches being picked through as most of them thrown away. The mother said, “I am never doing that again.” A few years later some others came knocking at their door and the mother turned them away. She then saw something (I can’t recall) that made her realize these people were really in need. She said again, “I am never going to do that again” as in she was not going to turn away the needy. (Radio Free Mormon – please don’t shred this story – I actually like it even if it wasn’t 100% true.)
As was mentioned, it is a balance that isn’t easy to make and then feel good about afterwards.
“Consider the following types of professionals who might be requested to perform services for free…:”
— professional or semi-professional organists/pianists asked or expected to play for funerals (or weddings) for persons/families they don’t even know
Has that one ever occurred to an LDS funeral planner?
The ward I was in when I first got married was, to say the least, not the most welcoming one I’ve been in. But when we had our first move as a married couple and realized quickly that we had completely underestimated our resources, I was very pleasantly surprised that the ward mobilized and helped us move and clean our apartment. I swore that I would always help out at moves whenever I could, and I have helped since then. I’ve helped families relocate after one member was jailed on drug charges, I’ve helped students and single people move into tiny apartments, and I’ve helped at least one family move into a house substantially larger and more expensive than any place I’ve lived. I felt good about helping in each situation.
Cleaning the ward building? That’s another story entirely. Granted, half of my bitterness is that I am currently a one-hour, 30-mile round trip from my ward, but still. The other half of my bitterness stems from when I *do* turn up and do my part, only to discover on Sunday that none of the other assigned families showed up. I’m never angry at them, more angry at the system that decided not to create a modest financial opportunity for someone to care for the buildings, and then turns around and complains on Sunday about how “we don’t respect our building enough.”
So many interesting dynamics, variables, and questions in this process.
We live in a ward of medium-sized houses. It almost seems like an unwritten rule that once a third child is expected it’s time to upgrade and move. Although I don’t necessarily agree with that idea, the result is helping countless families move in, only to help them move out again three or four years later. Overall, I don’t mind. My occupation prevents me from attending many ward activities and moving events feel like the next best thing for getting to know members. I also think that while self-sufficiency is important, the church’s counsel to save also comes into play somewhat. Within reason, moving is one area I’m willing to let other members save a little money on. Free moving from a company would probably no longer make it reasonable.
I can also recall a time in my youth when my dad was EQ President. A widow in the ward with two adult children and one teenager living with her asked if the EQ would paint the house. They had three incomes coming into the home. My dad refused. I think it was the right decision.
Personally, when it comes to home maintenance, I have almost zero skills. There’s a prideful part of me that wants to refuse help from ward members because I have no practical way to repay them or pay it forward. Part of me wanted to pay ward members for their help, but then I asked myself why I should pay them when I could pay a professional to do the same thing much better. When our dryer went out, our home teacher, who operated a dryer repair business, enthusiastically repaired it. We insisted on paying him. More and more, if members can reasonably do a good job, I’m willing to pay them for help and keep it about as local as it can get. Given my current situation, it’s the least I can do.
Depending on the circumstances and the actual need, I can’t see my ward refusing someone service on a Sunday.
When it comes to tight spots, I’ve been blessed not to be in a lot of them, but in watching others, fellow Mormons most often do rise to the occasion. I think it’s one of the more noble characteristics of LDS people as a whole.
I’d add social services to this list of skills abused. Both in terms of professionals (I have a friend who is a therapist. She gets asked by individuals and her Bishopric to get involved in difficult ward family situations) and leadership. Our R.S Pres has several sisters that she visits almost daily. I have no doubt the Bishop has the same.
I’d also add that tit-for-tat comes into play. When we moved, we didn’t want help. But my hubby went to every single move in/out and had done a whole ton of free fixing on people’s houses over the years. So when we moved someone got the move date out of one of our kids and 15 guys showed up to help. The hard part of this (and somewhat embarrassing as the individual posted about this all over social media) was that another family who’d lived in this town just as long as us moved out about the same time. That family specifically requested help, but no one offered or showed up because the family was known for being difficult.
My hubby has been endlessly asked to use his home repair skills. The worse abuse of that was a very, very wealthy family that finally hired him at a very reduced rate. But then they never bothered to pay, leaving us with a $1000 of materials we got to donate to their remodeled home. And this was early in our marriage where a $1000 was a crippling amount of money to us. The family never apologized and never even acknowledged the debt. They did however, eventually go bankrupt and lose their house.
On my end, I have some useful professional contacts and have any number of ward members want me to try to get work done for them low-cost or pro bono. People don’t seem to understand that I use up my credits with my contacts if I do this. One time, I felt the situation serious enough and the person needy enough to justify calling in a favor, but mostly I tell people that I can pass along a name, but they will have to pay themselves.
I will discount my own rates for friends/ward neighbors, but I had to learn the hard way not to discount too much because the moment people are paying anything at all they feel justified in asking me to do as much work as they want (and not always treating me well). This isn’t just church members though. I had the same problem with neighbors. I found that I have to charge enough (if not my full rate) to make it painful to the other person so they keep what they ask me reasonable.
My main experience with this sort of thing is as a participant in the WMC (the Ward Moving Company). Most of the time I’m happy to help and I don’t begrudge the activity. I’m turning 60 in a month and throwing moving boxes around is a younger person’s game, so I don’t participate as much as I used to, but even now I’ll do it occasionally.
But we’ve had a number of recent experiences where the people being moved were just completely thoughtless about it, and I have to admit that irks me. Someone has to think through the whole process from stem to stern. Boxes need to be packed *before* movers arrive. Maybe that is a separate work project that others can help with (on a preceding day, not moving day), but don’t expect your movers to first sort through and pack all your crap. Helping for two or three or even four hours is reasonable; expecting a bunch of people to devote 11 hours to your moving project is just flat out rude. Loading and unloading is plenty of work; don’t expect those same people to do packing or cleaning or unpacking or really anything else. If you need help with those things you need a separate dedicated crew for them, not the movers. Make sure your rental truck is big enough to convey everything in one trip. If you try to save money by getting a too small truck, you’re going to lose your moving help to attrition as the trips begin to multiply, and you’ll have no one but yourself to blame. If you’re moving items into a storage unit, for heaven’s sake make sure you rent one big enough to hold what you expect to put in it. Our priesthood does not give us the power to magically fit three rooms of furniture into a unit sized only to hold one room’s worth. And yes, have food and drink on hand for your helpers. And be grateful and thankful, don’t act all entitled about the whole thing.
Don’t ask me how I know about these types of issues….
My married daughter lives in an “inner city” ward in SLC area. Their Bishopric has set some guidance for certain types of help that are requested often (and sometimes abused). For instance, a lot of their members don’t have cars. The guidance gives some limits on how late/early in the day you should call for a ride, encourage advance notice/planning, and I think also have some expectation of using available public transportation if possible (buses and trains are available in her neighborhood) . “Moving day” guidance is that the family needs to have packed in advance. I’m sure that if an individual needs help filling boxes, their “ministers” and neighbors are willing to pitch in beforehand.
One house in our ward has had multiple problems with basement flooding stemming from poor lot engineering. Many people have helped out “in the moment” of the flood. Their insurance has paid for cleanup (ripping out carpet, etc.) and repairs. However, when the owner requested the EQ provide volunteers to fix the underlying problem, which would require extensive work, the request was declined and family directed to hire professionals to fix the grading/drainage issues. I appreciated that decision by the EQ Pres.
I’ve seen members with professional skills (electrician, plumber, etc.) volunteer their expertise, but generally in the case of emergency (to help stop a sudden water leak, etc.) or doing minor repairs, generally for someone elderly or on limited income. (Of course, I have no idea how many inappropriate requests those professionals might have received and turned down!)
In the examples given in the initial post, the ones that turn me off are the ones that seem exploitive, like getting money from the company to cover moving expenses but requesting free labor so you can bank that cash, or putting in sprinklers/lawn just to get ready to sell the house for a better price. Even so, we often don’t know the details of people’s situations, and erring on being generous with our time/service seems like a good idea (if a man take your coat, give him your cloak also).
I spent many years working as a mechanic and a roofer, so I was asked to donate my services frequently and spent countless hours doing so. But how can we give thanks for skills, talents, and abilities and not share them with others. Many people question the true need of a panhandlers, citing the urban legend of the beggar who lives in a mansion, but Chist didn’t say give only to those who deserve. He said, “give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee, turn thou not away”.
But it does chap my hide to have to pack boxes on a move.
Hawkgirrl, thank you for a not so negative post.
OK, Kevin, I won’t ask. I already know. Those are not unique experiences.
Bro. Jones, It can get worse — as in the time I was the only individual out of 3 or 4 assigned families to show up at 8:00am before a 9:00am stake women’s conference with a regional singles conference in the building the next day (the usual wards would be out at stake conference at a different building). The dedicated volunteer supervisor was there, pneumonia, heart condition and all. He vacuumed for a while before I sent him home and tried to make the rest rooms usable with inadequate cleaning supplies, before cleaning up the bowls of half-eaten food in Primary and YW rooms and the ice cream congealed all over kitchen counters from the irresponsible ward party the night before. (A stake presidency member showed up for the conference in his suit and helped with the food bowls.) While there can be some value in a group from the ward working together to clean the building, there is no value in the way such assignments have often worked and that one was the last for me. I will work with people; I will not do it essentially by myself again. The Church does not need such services from old guys with bad knees. Leaders scheduling Saturday 9:00am meetings would be wise to schedule their own backup cleaning crews for 7:30am unless they want to conduct their meetings in a pig sty.
@Damascene- Allow the ward to serve you.
I served as EQ president and I’ve experienced everything Kevin described. Very frustrating. However, I’ve also discovered that there are a lot of people who simply shut down when they get overwhelmed by something as big and stressful as a move, even when you’d think they were perfectly capable of planning better. I figured out that sometimes the biggest service I gave was to walk through the whole process as soon as they made the request and follow up/assist on their planning. Sometimes it helped them as much as the manual labor when the ward showed up, and certainly reduced ward members’ frustrations.
Damascene, I like your comment because you describe the issue from multiple angles. Some people just really want to help. It makes them feel useful and valuable, and we all want to feel useful and valuable. Some members also really want to fulfill and magnify their callings, for the same reason. It can actually be a selfish desire, more focused on one’s own fulfillment than actually optimizing for other results (such as the unemployed brother earning some money), but on a scale of good, better, best, I’d consider it a better motivation. But the need to feel useful and valuable is real. Sometimes accepting service is actually a kind of service itself.
I think my problem with the house moving thing is
a)should that not be factored into the price of a house move?
b)people need paid employment
c)would my time not be better spent serving where the need may be greater?
d)as non-professionals my lifting will probably result in injury
e)time spent may well result in neglect of the needs of my own household(this has unfortunately proven to be the case)
I spent twenty years of my life responding to move/meal/childcare requests, and my husband to any other way the church chose to use his time. We got old, hurt, and our kids got angry.
Of course one might argue that we just got the calls wrong, clearly we did, but it also wasn’t a two way street. When I became ill for some years there was one casserole, which moved me to tears.
I just got worn out by other people’s nonsense, and maybe lacked the skills to boundary all this. But I still don’t know how to do this.
And the pressure since ‘ministering’ got worse.
Happy Hubby:
I was in one of those wards that got hit by that Sunday morning snowstorm and we spend the morning shoveling snow. But it was more than a little Sunday morning snow. It was a lot of very heavy wet snow and the trees still had a lot of leaves so in addition to the heavy snow, we had a lot of fallen trees blocking driveways and streets. We also have a lot of elderly people in our neighborhood. For those who made it to church, a small percent, the bishop said that they would have the sacrament and then dismiss to get things done in the neighborhood. Everyone who could then took to the street digging people out and removing fallen trees from the road and people’s property. The best was just seeing people helping people, member, and non-member working together. Probably the best Sunday I can remember.
Now for the questions posted. “Finding the right balance between service and co-dependency in our volunteer church is a tricky one.”
That is one of the hardest things; our ward has horror stories about people we have tried to help. And all they expect is that we keep helping them. For example; we had one lady who expected the ward to pay her rent month after month. The ward helped to get her schooling to be nurse assistance, so she could make better money and be self-sufficient, took a year or so to get her the training she needed, and helped her find a job. She lasted three days. Quit and told the bishop it was too hard and that he needed to keep paying her rent or she would be thrown out and had no place to go as her adult children did not what to have anything to do with her. She stayed in the ward for a couple of years before a new bishop cut her off and she was kicked out of her apartment. She was also running the RS president ragged with requests for help, drive me here, need help with this, etc.
From my observation we tend to have a large pool of people who leach off the church. They move from ward to ward, never adding anything to a ward but taking all that they can.
But there is a lot of good service being done by a lot of people that is not really noted by people. A lot of one on one help that no one hears about, nothing big or fancy, but real help and real Christ-like service.
I remember receiving a phone call from the bishop, asking me to go “check” on a ward member. A relative had phoned, concerned that she might be experiencing complications from a recent heart surgery. For background, I was an RN, who worked exclusively in the newborn ICU. No adult “competencies” whatsoever. I grabbed my stethoscope & went over, but mentioned to my husband that this was totally outside my skill set, & probably not covered on my malpractice insurance. Turns out that the woman was anxious, because her anxiety med as due – period. I suggested she take it. Recommended to the family that if they had further concerns, they phone the on call RN for the heart doc. Came home to find out that the hubs had phoned the bishop back, & given him a short but firm tutorial on malpractice insurance, & how his request could have put my license at risk. The next time I saw the bishop, he apologized. Sometimes I think people mean well, but just don’t understand what they are asking.
I have a daughter who is a physician. Requests to treat for free within ward boundaries are surprisingly frequent, & apparently not limited to LDS, since this was covered in their last year of med school. They were advised that before they could give an informed medical opinion, they needed to examine the patient, so the request in the aisle at church was met with “take off your clothes”, which you can imagine did not go over well. The requests stopped.
Martin, excellent point. If someone has requested help with a move, don’t just assume she’s got her ducks in a row, but sit down with her and go over the plan together first. I suspect that most of the time there will be aspects of the project she simply had not considered. A little preplanning will go a long way towards a successful experience.
I love my current ward’s approach.
Damascene—more people should be like you.
A few thoughts, probably none of them unique:
I lived in a ward in Las Vegas that had a checklist people had to follow to get help for a move. I showed up about ten minutes late for one move, and they were sweeping out the apartment. Everything else was done. I have a testimony of pre-planning.
I have often given free legal advice to ward members at the request of the bishop. Usually, it is to a young mother whose marriage has fallen apart who has no clue what to do next. I have helped fill out do-it-yourself divorce, custody, and child support payment paperwork.
I don’t mind being the organist for a funeral. I remember my father’s and wife’s funerals, and how grateful I was for the help I was given, and want to pay it forward.
I appreciate the Elder’s Moving Company, but don’t let them move my heavy stuff, especially the piano. I love the brethren, but they are not licensed and bonded. Professional piano movers are.
I have had a move where I completely underestimated how big a move it was, the last before my wife died. I worked for weeks packing and moving smaller stuff into a storage unit, but we had more stuff than I imagined. And while we gave them pizza, donuts, and drinks, I am still grateful for the extra hours people gave us.
I think when we assist people who shouldn’t really need it, we do harm to the person we are helping (co-dependency) and we use up some of our time that could be put to better use. I would like to see more do-gooder projects for members and non-members in developing countries.
I love the idea of a pre-moving checklist. It sounds like a great way to help those who really don’t have a clue and to avoid some frustrations. I also haven’t really minded helping people, usually with professional advice based on my own career. The only times I haven’t loved it is when they are ungrateful or rude and demanding about it. That certainly makes it rough, although I have generally found that their reputation precedes them in a ward. People know who the stinkers are, and it becomes a pretty open secret that they are going to be prickly.
Scott J, bishops do correlate on welfare issues to address ward hopping welfare recipients. It’s one of the less fun things bishops get to handle and not something I envy them.
Hmm.. Mixed feelings and experiences on this one. Worst experience was as a relatively new counselor to an RS president who had to take time out to have a baby (fair enough), where I was assigned to take over the wedding (!!) of a relatively new member – this didn’t involve too much I was told; organising a cake and drinks and hiring glasses. I have no idea why she’d agreed to this, or how it came about that RS appeared to be organising the wedding, except her expertise was in catering, mine wasn’t and this was completely outside my then experience. Anyway, I rang the sister involved and the first question I asked was to check she and her fiance (a non-member) had visited the registry office the requisite number of weeks before the wedding to post banns (only CofE get to read them out to the congregation). Turns out they hadn’t. What was more, fiance was now away on holiday until one week before the wedding, so they grabbed an appt when he got back, but it transpired they were too late to get a license as well. It was left to me to let the then bishop (who also happened to be the registrar for the chapel) know that there would be no wedding, and cancel the hire of glasses. Seems the RS president had bitten off more than she had realised, and communication had clearly gone awry since it had apparently been assumed RS were doing everything (we can’t actually do the legal bit!). But still, I didn’t have to worry about cake and hiring glasses anymore! I did attend their wedding a couple of months later at the registry office.
One of my VT ladies gave me nightmares for several weeks when she asked me to paint her kitchen a good few years ago now. She hadn’t seen mine… Her paintwork was pristine. I couldn’t see her problem at all, and she had family living locally. I never did paint it. On the other hand I was very happy to go over and write out clear instructions for her to follow using her computer.
I really dislike being assigned to clean the chapel. My husband and kids would go over and do it, but now the kids are off / or about to be off at university, I’ve had to go along. Usually I’m assigned vacuuming, but since I had to have my elbow strapped up for weeks the last time I vacuumed the chapel – not to mention the bruises on my legs trying to manoeuvre between pews that have unaccountably been screwed to the floor (we used to be able to move them), I will no longer vacuum the chapel. Vacuuming the classrooms involves hauling stacks of chairs around, and the vacuum is heavy. Now I don’t begrudge helping the guy with the calling who organises the rotas, he himself is old, not in the best of health and very dedicated, but for goodness sake, please can we go back to actually providing full-time paid employment for this task.
I have been called upon to play the piano at weddings and funerals a few times. I didn’t mind that as I was available and enjoy playing. I don’t mind helping when I feel competent in what I’m doing. I have provided meals, though this doesn’t seem to be required very often, since I don’t drive, I can only do it if someone else can pick up/drop off unless it’s very local.
We were helped recently by a member who knows what he is doing, cutting down a dead tree in our garden, the roots were starting to rot and it was no longer safe. My husband put in the request specifically after an EQ lesson about how members need to allow members to help. Took a couple of hours, and was a big help.
Nevertheless, I share handlewithcare’s concerns about this new ministering thing.
I will never again clean buildings owned by the LDS Corporation; nor will I provide free labor “by assignment or calling”. This practice DOES NOT represent service; but servitude. The LDS Corporation has plenty of money and resources to have their buildings professionally cleaned. If necessary, they can certainly pull monies from their Real Estate division. I will simply focus on being a good neighbor and friend!
First ward as newlyweds, we were helping 3 weekends/month on moves for 2 years. When we moved out, we only had two ym show up (whom we had offered to pay). Never asked for moving help again. Rather pay a company our limited funds than be reminded of the limited value our friendships had. Recently had a flooded basement on a Sunday afternoon, when I texted 42 ward people asking for any help, I got ONE response, and that was offering to come the next day after the Sabbath was over. Again reinforcing limits on relationships. Between the 2 of us, we probably spend 5 -6 hours/week on service things around the ward unrelated to callings. We have just come to determine that part of Mormon life is learning from the Savior: He has given and given and there is no possible way to repay Him. Once I tossed the idea that my ward members might desire to “repay” any of our service I was much happier. I don’t anticipate asking a ward for help with anything again in my lifetime, simply safer for my heart that way.
I was asked to take a meal over to a pregnant woman that was “too sick” to cook and wanted meals brought in for about 3 months prior to the birth. They were having a party when I got their with my bucket of chicken. Never again.
I have done almost everything mentioned except shovel snow. It’s in my nature to help, and I enthusiastically assimilated codependent culture, which is encouraged, tacitly or otherwise, in Mormonland. Especially for women. I’ve never had a lot of regrets about people being unprepared or taking advantage, because I expect messiness happens sometimes, but I truly hated organizing funeral meals. In pre-smart phone days, that meant many, many phone calls, people declining, people dodging your call because they didn’t have the nerve to decline, many callbacks, and culling through the ward list for people you didn’t call the first time because you knew they didn’t have a lot of bandwidth, but you still needed another salad. I’ve come to believe that even the wimpy service projects are a net positive, because everyone is on a similar learning curve, but at different points and with differing gifts. At worst it’s like going to practice before the big game.
My favorite service I gave was as the RS compassionate service leader to a not-that-young couple just home from the hospital with their first baby. The VT’s has the meal thing handled, and I went because I wanted to hang out with a newborn, and because I could. The two parents were a little bit shell-shocked and there were no plans for grandma to come for a stay. I remember that feeling well, when I had my first baby, and how much it helped to see someone coo and fuss over and adore my baby. I held him for a good long while and showed them how to burp and walk with a fussy little one, and made sure mom had a good source for lactation advice. Dad was right there drinking it all in too. No messiness in that.
The best service I ever received was from an older woman in the ward. I had a troubled pre-teen, and I was hospitalized for heat-stress, and my family was pretty helpless without their codependent mom. This good sister, not even my VT, brought over a basic turkey dinner with potatoes, gravy, and stuffing. All the killer leftovers, and we were fed for a few days until I got back on my feet.
The pre-move checklist idea works. I used it when I was EQ President. I would visit with the people moving I would give them my speech. Which was “you will do the following… boxes packed, things that have to be disassembled need to be disassembled, moving truck out front, we can move an apartment worth of stuff, out or in, in less than an hour. You have us for one hour. We can pack boxes for an hour or we can move them out to the truck for that hour, you decide.” And I made a deal with the elders, you show up, and I will have you out in an hour or less no questions asked. If the family does not have their crap together you are free to go after that hour.
It worked. I would get a crew of guys. The job was done quickly, normally 45 minutes sometimes a little longer; never had a problem. It was all in the prep work. Our elders’ quorum moto was 45 minutes or your next move is free.
What are the worst examples of abuse of free church labor that you have seen?
Perhaps not the worst abuse, but definitely one that is memorable. Middle-aged single woman moving to another part of the state and wants help. Movers arrive, still a lot of packing to be done. Two or three Relief Society sisters arrive to help with the packing. MIddle-aged woman, standing around, starts berating and criticizing one of the most competent, sweetest, most generous and hardworking older woman in our stake for how she is packing. Next day movers arrive to load the truck. No truck. Someone has to go get the truck. My husband and a young man in the ward wait for the truck. Loading the truck begins. Middle-aged woman leaves to go to a hair appt. Ward member drives the truck to the new destination (2 hrs away) and then has to drive the truck back (2 hrs away) once it is unloaded.
I think the “moving services” in wards gets way overused. We recently helped our son, daughter-in-law and baby move from one house to another house.
They arranged and paid for 3 professional movers for 3 hrs to help them move the furniture. We helped them move all the rest. Help was not sought from the ward.
Of course, some people don’t have the funds and manpower to do it themselves. Everyone else should pay and and/or arrange for family/friends help.
Older people in the ward shouldn’t be risking their health–their backs–to help people move. Young fathers need to spend more time at home on Saturdays helping take care of their families.
When I was the compassionate service leader in our ward there were many volunteers happily willing to take a meal in for new mothers.
But for the chronically, “down and outers”? Nope. It fell on me. Which was fine except when I was out-of-town. I’m aware in two different wards I lived in of individuals turning to other churches for food assistance. (I was told once by someone at the nearest bishop’s storehouse that help is meant to be temporary only–which is usually, but not always, the case).
I would definitely help someone out on a Sunday on an emergency basis. So far, I’ve not experienced anyone needing help on a Sunday.
We had a couple of close ward friends help us move out of our apt to a house. Since then, 2 more moves– we’ve had professional help.
Back in my single days, I was the only one in my YSA ward with a pickup truck. I was asked to help people move A LOT. I would have resented it, except for the fact that it gave me a chance to get acquainted with every young lady that was newly moving into the ward, before any of the other guys did. First impressions matter.
In the military, I saw numerous instances of people eligible for relocation entitlements use their fellow ward members to do the heavy lifting instead, then pocketing the money they saved. Not cool. I call BS on it whenever I see it. Making a personal profit by taking advantage of your good-natured friends and neighbors is behavior worthy of getting a temple recommend taken away, in my opinion. Most of these people weren’t greedy opportunists, though; they were just regular Mormons who didn’t know any better, because they grew up helping people move for free and now expect it everywhere they go.
Later in life, when I had to move my family cross-country on my own dime with limited funds, I deeply appreciated the volunteer help I got. The few times I’ve had to use the EQ Moving Company I made sure everything was packed and prepared, I didn’t make excessive demands (no pianos), and I provided refreshments.
Son was a Bishop ‘s counselor in South Carolina. They got calls asking if they were the people who helped others move. Interesting comments on how Church should afford to pay for chapel cleaning. I worked in the Church Office Building on Temple Square and observed cost saving practices first hand. It is a lovely building, but recently they eliminated live plants in the public areas and replaced them with not as nice artificial plants. This saved many hours of hand watering and maintenance. The Church is very careful with their funds and I don’t need to know where the money is going, I am just grateful they ARE careful.
The Sunday I was called as EQP in a small branch, I hadn’t even been set apart yet, a branch member came up and started telling me about how her car wouldn’t start and how she needed me to fix it for her. I asked if she had a phone. (She did.) I asked if she needed the number for a reliable mechanic. She was, of course, offended because the previous EQP would have solved her problem for her. I realized that my calling was inspired to tell people no… A LOT.
During my second tour of duty as EQP, this time in a large ward, we quickly established a rule about moves: we would help anyone moving into the ward, no questions asked. (It was usually medical students and there wives who had neither a lot of money to pay for movers nor a lot of stuff.) We refused to coordinate moves out of the ward. If a ward member didn’t have enough friends in the community to call on to help them move out, well… I guess they weren’t good members of the community. (The rule for single sisters who weren’t as connected to the quorum: their home teacher coordinated for them.) This system worked great because quorum members realized that helping members move in bought goodwill for when they moved out.
I was disgruntled when our ward YM were asked to remove a members’ front lawn. The purpose was that the members wanted to sell the house and felt that the weeds in the lawn were decreasing their home’s marketability. They wanted the old grass out and to replace it with the rolls of perfect, new grass that give you an instant lawn. So the Bishop and young men and I chipped away the grass down to the dirt. In the words of one of the young men, they dug up ‘perfectly good grass’ and ‘made their lawn look like crap’. The member then wanted free labor in the form of the young men returning again (before weeds sprouted up in the freshly uncovered dirt, to install the new turf, but the Bishop did put a stop to that and directed them to hire an underemployed member of our ward to do that work. Their plans changed and they didn’t move. I drove by that house on the way to church for many years looking at how the new grass looked no different than the grass we wasted time digging up. Eventually the house was sold, and it was sold with the lawn in that condition.
MTodd your story about the phone reminds me of my experience as EQ. We had a young family that was particularly taxing on the Bishop with needs. The Bishop decided to have this family work with me first to help screen their requests. First time I got the call I went over to their home. Husband tells me they don’t have a working car so they need people from the ward to drive his wife to work. I ask if he has a ward roster. He brings one to me. I hand it back to him and ask who he should call on that list. He looks at me dumbfounded and asks you mean you expect me to call!? I told him he could call as well as I could. What he wanted was to abdicate his responsibilities and put them on others. I wasn’t about to go along and use my position to make someone feel they were being asked or given a church assignment to take this on. I had no problem with him asking others for help, but that was to be between him and them.
The last time I helped someone, they were a young couple in an apartment. Three women showed up. There weren’t adequate cleaning supplies and the husband was gone for about 2 hours getting boxes. Meanwhile, the wife did nothing but roam about and tell us what to clean! Near the end of my patience, she asked me if I had cleaned the room in the bathroom with the toilet and tub. I told her no but I had cleaned the sink area. She then asked someone else, who I had warned, and she was told that she needed to clean her own private spaces. When the husband returned with an inadequate supply of boxes and packing material, he also offered no help but managed to get in the way. They expected a maid service where they were only required to give orders. I will never clean anyone’s house again unless they are physically unable to do it themselves (or in a bad situation.) Especially in apartments where the reason for cleaning is to get back a deposit for themselves. And for the life of me, I do not understand why able bodied people, absent special circumstances, can’t pack their own stuff, especially when they have known for months they are going to move.
MTodd, sometimes telling people no is what is needed to help them grow. I like the idea of move in help without question, move out is on your own. A while back in a World Wide training, wasn’t it Elder Oaks who made the remark that as along as the elders quorum was moving people, they wouldn’t have time to do what was really needed, & that perhaps that needed re-evaluated?
When I was compassionate service leader, I came to the realization that not a few young coupleshave no clue how to clean a house. They are good at whatever sport they played – basketball, soccer, etc, – but somewhere along the line, no one taught either of them how to clean. Sometimes the planning help is more important than the actual cleaning help.
I too am a current EQP. I agree with what has been said about moving. Lately in our ward we’ve had people request help that day or for tomorrow and you’re like you didn’t know a week ago or two week ago? One lady moved from Florida to here in Canada, called the night before. One lady and her family moved from BC, asked the war for help in addition to hiring a moving company and the next day they went to Disney World. We have a brother who lives in very wealthy area ask the night before if people could help him put in a new fence, um no? That’s something you have to know what you’re doing or have someone there who knows what to do. The other thing is with all these moves and fence building in rich areas, is the liability. What happens if someone falls and hurts themselves and can’t work or can’t work for awhile, what happens then? So, we are cautious about situations and we are not afraid to sorry but I can’t get 10 guys to help you move 2 hours from now.
Interesting you mention therapy as one of the services. Offering therapy for free to a ward member would bring the potential for lots of ethical dilemmas. It could even lead to loss of professional license, depending on the situation. Most therapists’ ethical guidelines say not to enter into a dual relationship, like being neighbors/friends/ward members and therapist-client. In some small towns it’s unavoidable, but in most of the US it would be possible to find a referral to another free or low-cost therapist who wouldn’t have that potential. One alternative that I know of is for the bishop to work with LDS Family Services—he can ask them to hire that therapist, and then the Church can officially offer free therapy. It’s that therapist’s responsibility to manage dual relationships, still. It works best when clients are referred from the next ward or stake. It’s often still close enough to be practical, but far enough to reduce risks.
I’ve had ward leaders ask for professionally-informed opinions about problems in the ward before, and I see that a little different from agreeing to therapy. These are more about coaching the leader, educating them about a problem and ways to work with it,m. It doesn’t have the same risk of power imbalance or abuse. It’s easier to keep opinions vague or focus on things I’m qualified to say. It’s easier to make it about using experience and knowledge to help a friend instead of exploring someone’s life in a deep, intimate way.
For me, it comes down to the primary benefit for the recipient. If the main thing they’re getting is financial gain, it’s inappropriate. Mind you, financial gain is different from financial subsistence.
So in the question of the elderly woman who needs rides and has adult kids at home, I’m ok if the relief society steps in sometimes, because giving her kids breaks from elder care is a quality of life benefit, as is helping her feel like less of a burden to them. But I wouldn’t ask the RS to take her to medical appointments.
Same goes for helping people plan out the moving process — a little planning can help save their sanity. But if they’re in an financial position to pay someone to lift the stuff (professional movers or fifty bucks each to some college kids), they should. If you’re 97 years old on a fixed income and a tree blows down in your yard, I’m there. But if it’s about resale value of the house, you’d better split the increase with me to get my help.
I have mixed feelings about free music for weddings, funerals, and other events. Funerals are pretty last minute, and if I can show love in your grief by providing organ music, I will. But lots of funerals are on weekdays, and I can’t miss my actual paying job for that. Or cancel my vacation. Or drive six hours each way to the town you’re holding the services in. Or play a song that you don’t have written music for, especially if it’s one I’ve never heard of. Weddings and other events that should be planned in advance I always decline with a warm recommendation for a someone they can pay.
I’ve noticed that parents are far too willing to volunteer their children for service than may be warranted. For example, we sometimes are away for a couple of days and, rather than board our dogs, would prefer a neighborhood kid to come feed them. Parents think their kids would be happy to do this as a free service. We’re saving $60 a day in boarding fees and think that’s silly. We use the ploy that paying these kids will help them learn about tithing. No parent has argued back on that point.
On the other hand, I’ve learned not to expect any real help from ward members. We once spent 18 years in a ward only to have no one show up to help load a truck when we moved. (Maybe they thought we were inactive since I’d had stake callings the whole time) Two years ago my wife suffered heart failure. For nine months she was unable to even drive and needed to be at the hospital twice a week for therapy. I was working 10 hours a day, six days a week keeping a business business alive and taking care of the housework and meals when I was home. Luckily a friend volunteered to take my wife to therapy and to arrange for others to drive when necessary. The RS was completely absent. My only request of them, made at least monthly, was that my wife get some contact from sisters in the ward during the week since the doctor has told her not to attend church. It took 18 months for her visiting teacher to call. People are busy and they have other concerns. If you act like you can take care of yourself, they’ll let you.
Current EQ President. My Stake President has said that we have to get out of the moving business. In a PPI working with our 2nd Counselor in the Stake Presidency who twice a year interviews the Elder’s Quorum Presidents in the stake at the direction of the Stake President, we came up with a plan. Our plan is we have a list of brethren who agree to help others move in or out. When contacted we share the list with the member, if they are a move out, be they part member or all active doesn’t matter, we share the list of names and phone numbers with the member and invite them that they need to call the brethren and arrange for the help they need. We have their ministering brethren follow up with them within a couple of days to ensure they have made the calls and gotten the support they need. We make an announcement of the move in opening exercises of Priesthood as well.
This places responsibility for organizing the move on whomever is moving while allowing for us to give them the resources to do so. It is self-reliance, they do something for themselves and that fulfills President Oaks call in the 2010 New Handbook discussion where he stated:
“The roles of elders quorum presidents and high priests group leaders are significantly enhanced in the new handbooks. These leaders and their counselors have increased responsibilities to help individual quorum or group members, both spiritually and temporally. Handbook 2 directs them to “encourage quorum and group members to fulfill their priesthood duties, especially their duties as husbands and fathers” (7.3.2). They are also directed to work with their “counselors and with home teachers … and others in reaching out and ministering to those in their organizations and others who need assistance” (4.5.1) In order to accomplish these vital ecclesiastical responsibilities, these priesthood leaders will have to delegate extensively and may need to reduce some temporal service demands, such as helping members move.” https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/worldwide-leadership-training/2010/11/overview-of-the-new-handbooks?lang=eng
Under the new ministering guidelines we operate under, I would say this counsel is even more appropriate today. We feel our solution reduces the Elder’s Quorum Presidency’s temporal service demands, yet allows for a member who requests aid, to be their own advocate and organizer, fulfilling a self-reliant role, to those who have willingly agreed to help. Harder to say no to a member calling you then t o a member’s of the Elder’s Quorum Presidency also. We update our moving list each quarter so if anyone wants removed or added they can be based on individual circumstances.