Today’s post has an international angle to it, namely whether the Trumpification of the LDS Church and its members in the United States has also happened in certain other countries. Read on for why this is a relevant question.
In one obvious sense it is certainly relevant, and that is that no one wants to belong to the Church of Trump or attend church on Sunday with a bunch of Trump worshippers. I am exaggerating a bit, of course, since there plainly are some people in the US who want exactly that, but there is a large chunk of LDS members here who want no part of that. Some have already left. Some will leave in the next year or two. Those who stick it out will find themselves increasingly alienated from the remaining Trumpo-Mormons in their ward and stake. And it’s a big open question what’s going to happen (that is, how LDS members in the States will react) after the 2026 midterm elections and the (hopefully) end of Trump rule in late 2028.
Here is the relevant international angle, and I am drawing from the dismaying book Disaster Nationalism: The Downfall of Liberal Civilization (Verso, 2024) by Richard Seymour. He recounts how the authoritarian renaissance we are living through is not just an American development. In particular, he shows how similar developments (intimidating or co-opting the judiciary; pressuring an independent press with threats, lawsuits, and sometimes simply murdering journalists; undermining rule of law and fair elections; disinformation campaigns powered by regime-supporting trolls; political violence quietly or openly encouraged by the regime; and so forth) have been and still are occurring in countries like India under Modi, Brazil under Bolsonaro until he lost an election in 2022, and the Philippines under Duterte until his arrest in 2025.
[Note: Part of the argument is that the downfall or removal of a particular authoritarian leader does not stem the movement toward authoritarianism. It’s a two steps forward, one step back process that is trending in the wrong direction if you oppose democracies turning into dictatorships. This is particularly relevant for American politics. Our problems won’t go away when and if Trump leaves office or dies in office.]
I’m not going to review the book in any detail, that would take too long. And I’m open to the idea that the author is exaggerating some of the developments he recites. But here is the Mormon question: Has the culture of the LDS Church in Brazil and the Philippines (not many LDS in India) and the thinking of LDS membership in those countries changed in the same direction? Has there been a move toward thinking hey, maybe authoritarianism and political violence aren’t so bad? Who needs a Constitution if our guys have the guns?
Maybe some readers have served missions in those countries or have family living in country. Ideally we have someone who is living there now and can comment. Of course, readers can also comment on their own experience in the US. I don’t have a personal gripe here — my ward and my local leaders during the Trump I and II regimes have been quite reasonable most of the time. But I know it has changed elsewhere. I walked out of a sacrament meeting while visiting family in Texas when the opening pray-er invoked God’s assistance and blessing on ICE thugs and never went back.
So what have you seen?
- Any direct experience or knowledge of what’s going on in LDS wards and stakes in Brazil and the Philippines?
- Any missionary stories, first-hand or second-hand, of what’s going on there? LDS missionaries don’t always notice what’s going on around them, of course.
- How about your own experience in wards and stakes in the United States since the political arrival of Trump in 2016? Better, worse, or no change?
- And for the rest of you readers in Europe, Australia, Canada, and elsewhere — what do you make of all this?
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Wheat & Tares 
I’m hearing my LDS Trump fans warning us about the dangers of the socialists who seem to be gaining influence in the Democrat Party. And I have to agree that many of their ideas indeed seem dangerous. But what I’ve tried to point out is that many of the voters who support these candidates aren’t actually advocating socialism (I’m thinking of my daughter who lives in Brooklyn and voted for Mamdani). They are just sick and tired of the status quo and are desperately looking for relief.
And what is the status quo? It’s MAGA White House + Republican Senate + Republican House + right leaning Supreme Court = K economy with 3% inflation and a war of choice we should have never entered. Reagan was the president for 8 consecutive years and you didn’t see the voters flocking to socialism in 1988. They chose Bush 41 because they wanted 4 more years. With Trump, voters are so desperate to dump MAGA they are voting for socialists. And yet my LDS MAGA friends think it’s socialism, not MAGA, that threatens the republic.
What you describe raises a much broader question than the politics of any single leader or country. From a strategic perspective, authoritarianism is rarely created by one person alone; it becomes dangerous when political loyalty gradually replaces institutional loyalty, and when people begin to accept political violence, intimidation, or attacks on the rule of law as normal.
The international dimension is especially important. Similar patterns can appear in very different societies, but they do not necessarily produce identical outcomes. Religious communities, civil institutions, local leadership, and historical experience can either resist political polarization or become part of it.
The most important warning, in my view, is that the departure of an authoritarian leader does not automatically restore democratic culture. Institutions may survive while the norms that sustain them continue to erode.
That is why experiences from Brazil, the Philippines, the United States, and elsewhere are worth comparing carefully—not to draw simplistic parallels, but to understand how political movements reshape communities from within.
In my neighborhood, the Mormon MAGA cultists are not exactly the type who engage in critical thinking. Perhaps it relates to their lack of education or personality disorders – or both.
Problem is, when the pendulum inevitably swings toward normalcy, they will take time to step down from their platforms of hate as espoused by Dear Leader. The transition could be painful.
josh h wrote: “And I have to agree that many of their ideas indeed seem dangerous.”
Such as?
I have no data to share but yes this would be extremely interesting to understand.
I think most of the “dangerous” ideas of the democratic socialists are not so much dangerous as impractical, and therefore they won’t happen. I’ve seen a few friends hand-wringing over these “dangerous” ideas and I just kind of roll my eyes at it. For example, the wealth tax for billionaires. They are billionaires because they know how to get out of being taxed, and so yes, it might cause a brain drain in some states temporarily as billionaires flee Silicon Valley to new estates in the Ozarks (I’m just making up a solution here), but that’s not really going to bring down society.
Well, maybe there is a good side to the so-called democratic socialists — if a few of them get elected, what’s the harm? They will have to work within our pluralistic system, and they will have to use persuasion to get anything done — they’ll have to persuade other Democrats and even a few Republicans, and the American people as a whole. What’s wrong with that? I think we will benefit from the exchanges and dialogue and conversations and compromises — certainly, I think it will be better for our country than the present Republican Party embarrassment.
I have historically voted more conservative, but for 2026 and 2028 I hope for more liberal wins as a needed balancing and to save our republic, our constitution, our institutions, and our democratic norms. Pendulums swing, as they say, and I think ours has swung too far in one direction — I am hopeful of swinging the other way for a while.
Chadwick: I don’t really want to debate with you the pros and cons of the DSA platform. I suspect many folks on Wheat and Tares are comfortable with many DSA ideas and getting the government more involved with our lives and choices. Not me. But MAGA sucks too. Can we just find a moderate Democrat (think Sam Nunn from the old days or even Bill Clinton) or moderate Republican (Romney / McCain)?
Josh h
You can’t share even One dangerous idea?
No critic ever wants to be specific, that I have seen, because they don’t want the possibility of a valid refutation of their opinion.
This is also the exact MO of most church apologists!
Here’s a cut and paste directly from the DSA platform that I’m against:
“Public ownership: Social ownership of major industries, utilities, banks, and infrastructure”
LoudlySublime: I’m not Josh H, but here’s what Google says the DSA confirms it is proposing:
– Abolishing the Senate (it’s undemocratic due to disproportionate representation), replacing the presidency (how? with what?), and altering SCOTUS to make it subordinate to Congress
– Industry takeover of some energy and utility companies to remove private profit motives
– Defunding the police and dismantling the prison system
– Anti-Zionism. Boycotting, divesting, and sanctioning Israel
Now, having read all that, I can see some kernels of things I find appealing there, but on a more limited scale. Frankly, if you had told me utility companies were already under the government, I’m not sure I would have known the difference. I would totally support getting rid of “for profit” prisons which are corrupt as hell. I would also support demilitarizing the police. If we looked at what police wore in the 1980s vs. now, let’s just say one looks more like a postal worker, and the other looks like they just stormed an apartment building in Fallujah.
Regardless, I go back to my earlier comment that widescale changes just don’t really work in a democracy. You end up compromising. You have to persuade. I’m not afraid of introducing the more extreme ideas to the discussion because the right has already introduced the actual Handmaid’s Tale.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
josh h: About socialism (and I can’t quite figure out how we got to this topic from my OP). Some utilities are already publicly owned, probably water and sewer service you already get. Maybe your electric company. If not publicly owned, it is at least highly regulated. Banks are highly regulated. Infrastructure? You mean like roads and airports and schools? Publicly owned, government run. American political discourse and Americans in general don’t recognize or understand how “socialized” the American economy is because … well, most Americans are kind of stupid and don’t know much about history, politics, or economics.
How about American socialism for old people? Social security and Medicare have a tax structure that quite blatantly takes money from working adults (younger adults) and gives it to retired adults (older adults). So it’s you-lose capitalism for younger workers and we-win socialism for old Americans. Conservative and Trumpian attacks using terms like “socialism” and “communism” only work because most Americans (here’s looking at you, MAGA) are stupid. See what kind of reaction a politician would get if they announced, “Yes, let’s root out socialism from the American system, and let’s start by eliminating Social Security!” Americans like socialism, that is government spending and programs they benefit from, but they cannot abide an honest description of what it is and how it works.
“Public ownership: Social ownership of major industries, utilities, banks, and infrastructure”
On industries, I think we’ve seen the fruit of for-profit insurance. Cancer patients denied care and dying so shareholders can get a bump in their 401k. Cool I guess? Remind me again which President took a large stake in Intel?
On utilities, a quick Gemini search informs me that while electricity might be largely investor owned, most water, sewer, are public owned. So what is so scary on your water bill that’s not on your electric bill? Protip, most people complain about their electric bill. I hardly ever hear people run to social media screaming about their out of control sewer bill. But hey YMMV.
On banks, so what, like a credit union? Bruh. Those have been around since before I was born.
On infrastructure, like what, public parks, public libraries, public schools, public prisons, public roads? I wouldn’t have taken you as a big fan of toll roads and the University of Phoenix. Who knew?
Labels: do they really describe anything? Democrat, Socialist, or Capitalist are all misrepresented in most people’s minds. There are other questions we should ask as well. Do we really have “private” ownership? We say we own our home, but we usually don’t. It’s us and the bank. We say we have private ownership of businesses, but more businesses are corporations, franchises, or other forms of ownership that are removed from an individual. If it really is a privately owned business, it is usually small. Then what about the role of profit? Should people make a profit from education, health care, or basic utilities, or should they be necessities for the collective good? Yes, you’d need to pay something only to have it maintained to provide for our needs. For example, a water bill you get from the city. You pay a fee, but the city isn’t supposed to make a profit; they charge more than the cost of the water because things have to be maintained.
Another question: why is everyone so “worried” about a DSA platform? No one seemed concerned about Project 2025 yet here we are as a nation rushing to implement it. (Not me, but Trump and his MAGA loyalists; Trump even denied that it existed, and people believed him. It also took years to develop and years to get the country either so blind or worn down to let it happen).
Why do we get our talking points from the “other” side? Trump talks about DSA and what they are, and he defines us instead of ourselves.
Why can’t we look to government with the attitude of “What can it do for us” instead of what it’s going to take from us? For example, the post office was instituted as part of the Constitution as a responsibility of the government to provide communication for everyone regardless of their station in life or where they lived. Yet now Republicans talk about how it should be run like a business and make money, which casts mail delivery in a completely different light. I live in a small town that used to have a post office that was open from 8-5, but now it’s 8-12 because it didn’t sell enough stamps. Other little towns have completely lost their post offices. I’m a prime member of Amazon, but since I live in a small town, if I order something, it’s at least three days before it’s delivered, many times a week. Yet, if I order something for my daughter in Salt Lake or LA, it might even be there the very same day and for sure the next day.
This brings me to my last question. Is government supposed to be for us all, or is it for the richest people and those who supply their needs? Public schools are for everyone. Vouchers are for the well-to-do because they can afford the remaining tuition because they paid for it before. Now they have government support (welfare), and they don’t even need it. We have the best healthcare in the world, but because it’s not universal, our country also has the worst healthcare in the world. Not only that, we force companies to pay for their employees and then compete in a world market where other countries provide healthcare universally. So we both limit healthcare and have a system where huge profits can be made because we don’t even have a direct market, but have a system where we have an employer pay and an insurance company to pay the bills of employees who get services from a doctor who is told what they can charge by that same insurance company who also limits which doctors they will work with and tell people which doctors they can go to. There is no private ownership in healthcare, only corporate greed.
“Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy” Winston Churchill.
I hate to consider the possibility of some legal American Citizen ultimately becoming an enemy; through their hatred of and contempt for the freedoms we enjoy in this country. But, I have to admit that if there is anything (aside from killing the unborn) that would compel me to view a fellow citizen as an enemy it would most probably be through the embracing of Marxist doctrines – and the pushing for Socialist/Communist policies to be broadly applied within the U.S.A. It is an anthema to me and a Cancer that once planted – becomes something far beyond what was promised as part of the collective. Thank God there are millions of Americans who feel as I do; and will never bow to this garbage.
@josh h
I don’t buy the marketing for a second that conservatives are working to get the government less involved with my family’s lives and choices, although maybe I just haven’t learned to appreciate my new freedom to eat diarrhea lettuce yet. Conservatives have started a goal to eliminate people like me from public life and have detailed plans they’ve already started executing. I feel like not being allowed to leave my house is in fact getting involved in my life and choices.
My state has already passed a law getting involved in my children’s choice whether to have puberty blockers, which is a very intrusive and consequential imposition. Other states have even forbidden teachers to tell children like I was that other kids like them even exist. It’s pretty hard to argue that forbidding knowledge isn’t getting involved with people’s lives and choices. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
The interesting thing to me is we already have a lot of socialism in the US:
– Public Utilities & Infrastructure: Government-provided services like roads, bridges, public transportation (trains and buses), water, and electrical services.
– Public Services: Institutions that serve the public good, such as K-12 public education, the US Postal Service, fire departments, and police departments.
– Worker Protections & Labor Rights: Protections won over the years, including the 40-hour work week, minimum wage, unemployment insurance, the abolition of child labor, maternity leave, and the existence of trade unions.
– Social Safety Nets: Programs designed to help citizens, specifically pointing out Medicaid.
The only major thing we don’t have that everyone else seems to have is socialized medicine.
We don’t have these aforementioned things because of capitalism, we have a lot of those things as a response to capitalism run amuck. With this AI craze, capitalism has again set us up for another massive economic crash that other ideologies will have to come in and bail out just like last time. In addition, communism is not socialism–not even close–yet conservatives keep using them as if they are interchangeable. They aren’t. One does not lead to the other. In fact, I don’t think that anyone on the right using these terms even remotely know the difference anymore–they are just used a thought-stopping scare words. I just don’t get the hate on Mamdani. Pretty much everything I’m seeing is that he’s make the gov’t work for the people to make things better for everyone in NYC. Shouldn’t that be what gov’t is for? Isn’t that a core tenant listed in the preamble–promote general welfare?
Conservatism clearly isn’t working. It has never made us fiscally responsible, the liberals have to do that when they get into office. Conservatism seems to frequently start wars that cost us a boat load. I just can’t think of one thing conservatives have platformed and delivered that have actually made life better for everyone.
josh h
“Here’s a cut and paste directly from the DSA platform that I’m against:
“Public ownership: Social ownership of major industries, utilities, banks, and infrastructure””
This is already a thing isn’t it? The trump admin has purchased large gov’t stake into major US corporations. Utilities should be gov’t run and operated. Infrastructure is already owned by gov’t. Why shouldn’t this be the case? We already have examples of privatized utils extorting people (Texas storms) or causing major fires because of lack of maintenance (PG&E) where gov’t (at least in PG&E’s case) has to intervene protect the people.
”… view a fellow citizen as an enemy…”
That is the same rhetoric that President Trump uses, and that the German führer used. No, grizzerbear55, please allow your fellow citizens to vote, and please respect the outcome — that’s how things should work in our republic. If you feel strongly one way or the other, please try to persuade your neighbors, but don’t view them as enemies.
@grizzerbear55
Capitalism promised me freedom, a nice job, and a few fun toys, and instead I got my neighbors getting kidnapped by anonymous armed masked men for having the wrong skin color or speaking the wrong language and forced to live in inhumane conditions, rivers running dry and states I love literally catching on fire while it gets harder to fulfill my family’s basic needs every year. Something about stones and glass houses when it comes to promises.
Conservatives are using the words socialism and communism to conjure up boogeymen in people’s minds while they march towards “Authoritarianism.” Authoritarianism has been fascist, as in Nazi Germany; socialism, as in Venezuela, Communist as in the USSR; and countries that call themselves Republics like North Korea or Red China. As a matter of fact, if you read the Communist Manifesto, there is a huge difference between the Communism portrayed there and what ended up happening in the USSR or in Eastern Europe. The Communist Manifesto was more about workers’ rights in their fight against the upper bourgeoisie owner class of people. I heard today on the radio that there are more individuals in the Trump administration making over 100 million than there were in the last four presidential administrations combined.
There is also a huge difference between ownership and regulation. Most government ownership is at the local level (roads, water, sewer systems, and even some electrical generation). There is some state ownership, like highways and parks. The Federal Government owns buildings. It doesn’t even own the Interstate System, which is deeded to the individual states even though the Federal Government paid for most of it. What upsets people about socialism is regulation, not ownership per se. The funny thing about regulations is that so many of the ones that upset citizens are the local ones, not the Federal ones. Building codes, setbacks, zoning, and traffic laws are set by local areas like cities and counties, with the state maybe setting some overall guidelines. There is also a difference between personal and private property. Like in Red China, you can own your house permanently, but not the land, and you can use the land for agriculture or manufacturing.
Also, there was a question about direct experience in the Philippines, Brazil, Australia, Canada, or some other “socialist” country in Europe. When I’ve talked with people who have had “experience” with other countries, it’s usually an exercise in a blind person telling me about an elephant. They see what they’ve seen but usually not the whole picture. I have a friend I graduated from high school with who moved to Canada because of his job. He has dual citizenship but will never move back to the US because his healthcare is so good. It’s not the horror stories those on the right like to tell.
Finally, we have an arrogance in the US about the Constitution. It was a huge step in governance and a model for many other countries. It’s not perfect, though, and reflects many issues from its time. There are more modern Constitutions from other countries that take into consideration issues not tied to the past, like slavery and its corresponding civil rights for us today. Many of these countries have been called socialist, but they are also very democratic. They also have better health, higher incomes, more free time, and are happier, like Scandinavia. Individuals also have a greater degree of freedom because they don’t have to worry about healthcare, housing, or a job even if they are female. After all, they don’t have to depend on an employer or another person, a spouse, for that matter. They are recognized as a unique individual and are more truly free.
I’m not holding my breath, but would love to see a MAGFA movement: Make American Government Function Again. In my dreams it would included electoral reforms to reduce polarization and weaken the 2-party system. Less politicization of government agencies. Adopt any policy that benefits 80% of Americans as long as it doesn’t infringe on the rights of the rest. And so forth.
Just before the 2024 election I hosted some members from Brazil. Political discussion in the US was all the rage at that time. Mostly they didn’t seem too tuned in to US politics. But then again, how could they be? They spoke some English but the content they listened to was all in Portuguese. They didn’t listen to English news, let alone English podcasts. Portuguese news, like English news, needs viewership and it is most likely to get that by focusing on issues affecting Brazil. So my guests knew all about what was going on in Brazil. And we talked about that. We didn’t talk directly about Bolsonaro or Lula, but I got the sense that they weren’t big fans of Lula. They criticizes the main news and TV station Globo for being “esquerdista” (leftist) and talked about how the current government wanted to pursue “everything that is wrong in this world” from abortion rights to LGBTQ rights.
I have a lot of Spanish-speaking friends. Those who speak good English and feel comfortable listening to English content are more attuned to the topics du jour in American English media. Those whose English is not so great are less aware of the political issues in English-speaking America. They’re mostly focused on migration and generally hate Trump for his immigration politics. Some Latino contacts are somewhat more supportive of Trump but not in the same way that white English speaking maga is.
Lastly, I have a subscription to the NYTimes and sometimes read the Spanish and Chinese versions (I’ve been studying Chinese on and off for the past 8 years). Even though it is the same newspaper, the coverage varies by language. The Chinese NYTimes covers China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong to a very large extent and features news relevant to white English speaking Americans much less.
grizzerbear55: I’ll see your Winston Churchill quote (which isn’t about democratic socialism, BTW–it’s about authoritarian socialism) and raise you an MLK quote: “This country has socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor.” Martin Luther King, Jr. There are many, many examples of this, but I’ll just point out an obvious one. Why were the large financial firms deemed too big to fail, but the sub-prime mortgage owners were deemed too small to bother helping? How is the TARP bailout not socialism? The government is picking winners, usually their donors and cronies. We now have a president who is enriching himself and his family by making direct deals with American corporations.
I fear democracy far less than I fear authoritarianism, so I don’t fear democratic socialism.
On those fearmongering about socialism in the US. I have bad news. It’s already here. And has been here for a long time. The US government has engaged in social spending since the 1930s. Now there are different types of spending. Spending on welfare and entitlement programs largely aimed at helping the poor, which were overwhelmingly popular among US whites until they found out that spending was being used to help non-whites. Then a number of the US whites started getting angry at that aspect of socialism.
Then there are more recent instances of cronyist socialism such as the Trump administration spending over $10 billion in order to acquire ownership stakes in companies. It has corporate vetoes and imposes price controls. Trump has also mimicked some other negative aspects of socialist experiments in other countries by deploying propaganda, legally harassing political enemies, harassment of the press (even though he hasn’t taken it as far as other socialist dictatorships).
When right-wingers fearmonger about socialism and big government, what they’re really saying is that hate that Democrats are in power. Why Democrats? Largely because Democrats are more racially and ethnically diverse, welcoming of non-white immigrants, and supportive of LGBTQ rights. When Republicans are performing acts of socialism, authoritarianism, and restrictions on humans freedoms and rights, there is radio silence. Libertarians came of out of the woodwork and started preaching left and right during the Obama and Biden years. But with Trump in power where are they? Where are these principled crusaders for individual rights and free markets? It couldn’t possibly be that libertarianism was all a massive charade?
I see many on here decrying the loss of freedom during the Trump presidency, yet they never said anything during the much more restrictive policies in place during the Biden years. Can you google search the policies you dislike from Trump and get dozens of different results discussing the flaws, abuses, or frustration with said policies? Of course. Certain Biden era policies were not discussed freely and results of many searches, social media feeds, etc. were restricted viewpoints. That was a massive repression of the “press” and the free exchange of ideas. Nothing Trump has done comes close. In most ways, the Biden presidency was much more authoritarian. Most left leaning people liked or ignored the restrictions, many of which did not apply to them or their preferred views. Also, President Biden was so mentally deficient that no one could imagine him as an autocratic dictator, even if most democrats refused to admit it publicly. Instead, we got authoritarianism by committee.
Do I like every policy detail from the past 2 years? No. But I do enjoy the much more open exchange of viewpoints, the freedom of the lowest violent crime rate in over 100 years and several other big increases in freedom.
el oso,
Let’s not do the “Biden was actually worse” dance. You already know what’s happening now is different in kind, not just degree — that’s precisely why the strongest thing you can point to is search-result restrictions instead of anything Trump has actually done.
On the “free exchange of ideas”: Trump’s own FCC chairman has spent this year publicly threatening broadcasters’ licenses over coverage he doesn’t like. NBC/Comcast, ABC/Disney, NPR, PBS, and the BBC have all gotten formal letters or public threats. Jimmy Kimmel got pulled off the air within hours of Carr calling his monologue a “very serious issue” for Disney — Trump praised the move. In March, Carr threatened every broadcaster’s license over Iran war coverage, right after Trump posted complaining about it. Trump himself has said networks covering him negatively should “maybe” lose their licenses, and that the call would be Carr’s. That’s the head of the government’s media regulator, backed by the president, directly threatening the operating licenses of news organizations. Whatever your gripes with search rankings under Biden, none of it involved the government threatening to pull stations off the air.
On “nothing Trump has done comes close”: Alex Pretti (Minneapolis, Jan. 2026 — shot by CBP agents while filming them), Renée Good (Minneapolis, Jan. 2026 — shot by an ICE agent), and Ruben Ray Martinez (Texas, March 2025 — shot by an ICE agent) were all American citizens killed by federal immigration agents. There are over 170 of more documented cases of US citizens detained — including elected officials, veterans, and Navajo citizens. US citizen children, including a 4-year-old mid-chemo who wasn’t allowed to keep his cancer medication, have been illegally deported to Honduras and Mexico. Meanwhile ICE detention itself just had its deadliest year since 2004 — worse than the COVID year. None of that happened under Biden.
On the debt: total federal debt crossed $40 trillion this week. Across his two terms combined, Trump has now added about $11.5–11.6 trillion to it — more than any president in American history, more than Obama’s full 8 years ($9.3T) or Biden’s 4 years ($8.4T).
And that “lowest violent crime rate in a hundred years” you’re citing as proof things are fine? That happened in 2023 and 2024, under Biden, before Trump was even sworn in again. You’re giving credit to the wrong administration.
If the worst thing you can dig up from the Biden years is a vaccine mandate meant to keep people out of the ICU, and the best you can say for this one is that its FCC hasn’t quite pulled a license yet — while it’s shooting American citizens in the street — that’s not a defense. Wake up.
el oso,
And another correction: the Dem party did call out the admin for Biden’s mental state. They were called out over and over again. And the party heads refused to go a different direction. Let’s compare that to Trump who clearly has dementia which thousands of medical professionals in the US have attested to–are you capable of admitting the same thing about Trump, that he’s mentally deficient? I mean, the GOP won’t even move to replace McConnell and he is clearly unfit now.
And all of this doesn’t even bring up the children killed in a school we bombed and the thousands that have died and will continue to die because we removed their SNAP benefits. MAGA has true reached sick levels of mental illness to be so grossly unaware of what is clearly happening around them right now that they still are what-about-Biden-ing to sooth themselves.
chrisdrobison – bravo!
Hawkgrrl: I decided long ago to not take any counsel from men who repeated cheated on their wives; i.e. MLK. Sorry, I won’t be taking his counsel (nor yours for the most part) regarding the state of Politics in our country.
Chrisdrobison: With your dripping contempt of the U.S. – when will you and your loved ones be moving to Socialist Paradise somewhere else in the World; for there are so very many, many to be found.
On another note: you good Democratic/Socialist folks who are “all in” and have embraced this nonsense so fully – have a really big problem on your hands. This is that the body politic is just about split in half on this stuff; which means you’ve got tens of millions of American Citizens who think (and view) the Cancer of Socialism exactly as I do. And, they’re not going to simply roll over for it. So, if “push comes to shove” (Let’s hope that it doesn’t) I know which side of the line I’ll be standing on; and I think we have a better chance of surviving it all.
grizzerbear55
You conflate the GOP for the US. My contempt is focused on the party running this country into the ground and the people like you who sit by and explain it all away as if some self-invented imaginary boogeyman is worse than the reality we are living in now. Surely you have higher quality contributions than the tiresome “why don’t you move”. The cognitive dissonance for you and conservatives must be deafening right now to resort to such low quality things. I find it rich for you to say you won’t take counsel from men who repeatedly cheat on their wives yet the leader of your party is a serial adulterer and then some. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but you those 10 of millions of Americans are benefiting right now from policies deemed as socialist. SS, for example, is one of these most popular policies in America. So I guess you and those other millions will be donating your check back to the gov’t then when you retire? As surely you wouldn’t want that socialist cancer to spread. It easy for you call it a cancer when you benefit from it every single day here.
“So, if “push comes to shove” (Let’s hope that it doesn’t) I know which side of the line I’ll be standing on; and I think we have a better chance of surviving it all.”
Hopefully this isn’t a vailed reference to participating in another armed Jan 6th moment. If so, you’ve completely lost all credibility in remotely standing for anything moral or democratic. At that point, not taking counseling from men repeatedly cheating on their wives is the least of your problems if you think it’s okay to shoot people you don’t agree with–that does seem to be the conservative trend right now.
grizzerbear55: “Chrisdrobison: With your dripping contempt of the U.S. – when will you and your loved ones be moving to Socialist Paradise somewhere else in the World; for there are so very many, many to be found.”
The good news (for me at least, perhaps not for you) is I don’t need to move anywhere. The US is a socialist paradise! To wit, public highways, public libraries, public schools, government run mail service, government run healthcare for the elderly (Medicare) and infirm (Medicaid), government run retirement program (social security), public city parks and hiking trails, national parks, free school lunch and community college in my state, government subsidies for families with children (child tax credit), government subsidies for charitable giving and home ownership, programs that feed children like WIC and SNAP and house families like TANF, community-funded emergency response like EMT and fire departments, community-funded peace officers, community run utility companies, government oversight for investment in public companies, government-run guardrails for public safety, unemployment insurance and workers compensation, public transit, public museums, US military, unions, state-sponsored home insurance as the big dogs take our money and stop insuring us, I could do this all day.
My dad was disabled my entire life. My mom worked as a HS teacher and my dad received social security disability payments. My family survived this unexpected life event thanks to the American people, including (I presume) you and your parents. So thank you. Truly.
History does work in circles. grizzerbear, all this talk about your neighbors as enemies, calling them a cancer, wanting them to move from the country, is scary talk with precedents in recent world history — and if push does comes to shove, I suppose you’ll be doing the shoving, right? Your rhetoric is frightening, yet I believe your devotion to your cause is sincere. You are not alone, as I know some people near me who would love to re-enact the old SA or Einsatzgruppen days right here in America, with liberals and Democrats as the targets.
I prefer the traditional American model, where we engage in the public square, vote, and then abide the outcomes in peace with our neighbors. I prefer a more charitable approach, along with truth, justice, and the American way mantra. One can call for conservative values without demeaning or threatening his or her neighbors.
ji:
If only you had the capacity (or even the desire) to apply these same rules of conduct to your “Morally Superior” Democratic Party……But (Unfortunately) you clearly don’t.
grizzerbear55, I’m not a Democrat, and I have voted for far more Republicans than Democrats in my life. But I cannot join you in your hatred of other Americans. I hope the upcoming elections help slow or change the pendulum we seem to be on.
ji: Not hatred. Realistic pragmatism.
👍