Author Brian McLaren recently published a book, Do I Stay Christian? A Guide for the Doubters, the Disappointed, and the Disillusioned, that’s been under discussion in Mormon online spaces, and mentioned recently by Happy Hubby in his Wheat & Tares review of Christian Kimball’s new book, Living on the Inside of the Edge. Latter-day Struggles podcast also did an excellent series on the points in the book (here, here, here, here, and here), so I figured we might as well take a stab at it too. In the book, McLaren does a chapter on each of ten reasons to leave Christianity, and ten reasons to stay Christian. This post is not going to be a deep dive, although we could drill down into some of these sub-topics later on.
I’ll list the chapter header, but then explain a little more about how it might apply to the Mormon Church, not just the broader question of Christianity.
Ten Reasons to Leave
- Because Christianity Has Been Vicious to Its Mother (Anti-Semitism). This is one area where Mormonism’s failures differ from Christianity on the whole. Mormons are more involved in cultural appropriation than in any actual animus toward Jewish people. It’s one of the unique facets of Mormonism vs. other Christian sects, but it’s often been carried to weird extremes, like a Jewish convert who was told that he was now “adopted” into the house of Israel. Really? I have a Jewish friend who mentioned that he met a Mormon who greeted him as if Mormons are also Jews, but of course, to him, we are gentiles. It’s all a little benighted and even off-putting to actual Jewish people, even if it’s well-intentioned, but Mormon attitudes are generally not anti-semitic.
- Because of Christianity’s Suppression of Dissent (Christian vs. Christian Violence). Within Mormonism this is the oft-expressed concern that if you say anything someone doesn’t like, you’ll get hauled in to the bishop’s office by the thought police. You might be threatened with having your temple recommend yanked, losing a high profile calling, or even (depending on leader roulette primarily) being excommunicated for disagreeing with the party line. Many on this site have mentioned being released from a calling due to incidents like this, particularly teaching callings.
- Because of Christianity’s High Global Death Toll—and Life Toll (Crusader Colonialism). On the upside, the Church is a new enough sect to have escaped most of Christianity’s unsavory past, a happy accident of our fairly recent founding. Incidents like Mountain Meadows Massacre demonstrate that we’ve been just as willing to murder innocents in the name of God, or as McLaren puts it, Christians seem to be as willing to kill for their faith as to die for it.
- Because of Christianity’s Loyal Company Men (Institutionalism). This is a huge problem within the Church right now, one we’ve discussed ad nauseum (and witnessed ad nausemier) as discussed in my recent post, Mormon Simps. Apparently that’s not something you can easily escape by changing churches, but I suspect that Mormons are among the worst offenders on this one due to the structure of our hierarchy (vs. council-based churches that have democratic components that check some of these human impulses).
- Because of Christianity’s Real Master (Money). Oof, this one hits close to home. Applying the regressive tax of tithing across the board, implying the broadest definition possible (gross earnings!), and avoiding transparency, only to find that the Church has (through its wise investments/hoarding) amassed an unfathomable fortune, only a mere fraction of which goes towards charitable endeavors.) In addition, several of us spent 1.5 to 2 years telling people that the Church was true because unlike other sects, we had no paid clergy, only to find out that it was not true. Earing $120K per year until you die may not be Vatican-level opulence, but it’s unheard of for your average church member, those bankrolling these pensions through their contributions. Seeing the Church use contributions for aims that contradict our values like fighting aginst gay rights or protecting the Church from lawsuits by abuse victims whose abusers were protected is another problem on this front.
- Because of the White Christian Old Boys’ Network (White Patriarchy). Patriarchy feels like it’s being double-dipped on a few times here because of its tendency to go hand-in-hand with capitalism and institutionalism, but putting men in charge of everything and making women & children one (dependent) category significantly lowers the value prop of the organization. Mormonism also fares a little worse on this one due to the racist ideas in the Book of Mormon (about dark skin being a curse that accompanies laziness, idolatry, and bloodthirsty / criminal behavior). It’s almost like the Lamanites are being called welfare queens.
- Because Christianity Is Stuck (Toxic Theology). The inability and unwillingness to ditch bad ideas, including sexism, racism, and so forth, because throwing a previous leader under the bus is a dicey proposition is again compounded in the Mormon Church because our worst idea (polygamy) is an idea so repugnant that it is still following us around despite not practicing it for over a century (wink). I mean, blood atonement was not great either, but it didn’t have the staying power of polygamy once Brigham Young was dead. But nobody will disavow polygamy because of their not-so-distant ancestors and the hope that they too can have a harem in the eternities.
- Because Christianity Is a Failed Religion (Lack of Transformation). This theory is that Christianity has basically run its course, going through the stages of degeneration that all religions are prone to go through. I do sometimes see Mormonism doing things that the early Christian church went through (that didn’t go well), and wonder, do we just seem new and fresh because Catholicism is so much older? Is the Proclamation on the Family so different from the Nicene creed? (Locking us into an idea that may have bad downstream impacts, when it’s a document not grounded in the actual gospel). Given our doctrine about ongoing revelation, we should be able to avoid this problem, but we don’t seem to be getting transformative ideas that aren’t just policy changes (which every church has), or conservatism and hobby horses repackaged as revelation.
- Because of Christianity’s Great Wall of Bias (Constricted Intellectualism). We know this is a problem because asking questions at Church is not viewed with favor. It gets you the stink eye, and sometimes worse. We are so incapable of handling questions and doubts well that we are told to stick to yes or no answers in the temple recommend! This indicates a lack of trust that bishops and their counselors can handle more complex conversations appropriately. Contrast this with a much older religion, Judaism, which has a long history of embracing discussion and disagreement. While this varies depending on the flavor of Judaism (some are quite repressive and problematic), the fact that they embrace intellectualism is evident in the creation of the midrash. FAIR is no midrash.
- Because Christianity Is a Sinking, Shrinking Ship of Wrinkling People (Demographics). Well, that title just sounds insulting (I prefer wheezing fossils), but they have a point. While the Mormon Church has this problem, too, it’s actually not as bad as it is in other Christian sects. We still have enough families to run a Primary in most wards. Many sects literally don’t have anyone attending under the age of 55. Also, funny that they mention a ship…
Ten Reasons to Stay
- Because Leaving Hurts Allies (and Helps Their Opponents). This is the age old problem that if you throw a party and you invite everyone including white supremacists, the racists are going to eventually be the only ones at that party. When all the good people leave, the bad people suddenly think they are normal and start insulting the ones who left. Personally, all the best people I have known in my wards in the last decade or so have left. The ones who are left don’t really mind racism, sexism and homophobia; they might not be in favor of it, but they aren’t that uncomfortable with it, so long as the brethren are telling them it’s not a big deal.
- Because Leaving Defiantly or Staying Compliantly Are Not My Only Options. This is a shout out by the author to stay on your own terms, to take what works and discard the rest. Feels like we’ve had this discussion plenty. You might get sidelined, but as Julia Roberts says in Pretty Woman, “I say who. I say when.”
- Because . . . Where Else Would I Go? There was a GC talk with this premise a few years ago, and it’s a line from the New Testament (John 6 is pretty trippy). Jesus has been preaching about his disciples needing to eat his flesh and drink his blood, which is “an hard saying” and turns off a bunch of people who quit following him. Jesus asks the twelve if they will also leave him, and Peter says “To whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.” Applying this idea to a church rather than to Jesus is giving me E. Hamilton vibes, but if you consider the idea of leaving a community of disciples to be a loss, a community you know as well as you know your own family due to its familiarity to you, then yes, that’s hard to replace. As much as Mormons are weirdos, they are our weirdos, not like those Evangelical or Catholic or Methodist weirdos.
- Because It Would Be a Shame to Leave a Religion in Its Infancy. The author is saying Christianity is in its infancy, and Mormonism is 1/10th as old, so basically it’s an embryo. I suppose there is some interest in seeing where this thing ends up.
- Because of Our Legendary Founder. LOL, obviously I thought of Joseph Smith first, and then I realized oh, right, Jesus. I’m no stan of Joseph Smith (he’s a mixed bag for sure), but Jesus is pretty awesome. He’s like a more comprehensible Buddha. If those two did a collab, I’d buy that. The sayings ascribed to Jesus are full of interesting and contradictory thoughts, well worth a lifetime of ponderizing.
- Because Innocence Is an Addiction, and Solidarity Is the Cure. Essentially, the “innocence” referred to here is like the sin of certainty. It’s the innocence of keeping our blinders on, of seeing things in black & white, and of not really addressing problems by talking about them and seeing them for what they are; this “innocence” is to create “purity” which leads to a feeling of “superiority” and “Christian supremacy,” while avoiding dealing with the messiness of life. When we actually see the human problems in the world, the only way to tackle them is together. We only try to tackle them when we develop empathy, which we only do when we get out of our bubble and quit feeling superior.
- Because I’m Human. And Churches are human institutions full of humans. Basically, you need social groups to thrive in life. Belonging to groups of people for whom you care and who care for you is essential, even better if they are your neighbors, even better if you all have different perspectives and still love and care for each other anyway.
- Because Christianity Is Changing (for the Worse and for the Better). This is certainly true. Sometimes it feels like the improvements are too small and infrequent, but the pace of improvement is probably faster than ever. The reason it feels otherwise is that the bad ideas are also coming fast and furious, and their introduction and adoption is felt more strongly than overdue improvements that feel obvious to those of us who’ve been waiting for them.
- To Free God. If we leave religion (whoever we are), then Mormonism decreases its diversity, and God will continue to be defined in smaller and smaller terms, locking him into a petty vision that becomes increasingly dystopian to those who’ve left. There are amazing ideas, wonders to behold, and an expansiveness that is going to be a loss to humanity if we abandon God altogether. We can’t let God be whittled down to an idol for white supremacist patriarchy. Mormon case in point: Heavenly Mother. The last time I saw a wife imprisoned and silenced like this was during a production of A Lion in Winter.
- Because of Fermi’s Paradox and the Great Filter. Fermi’s Paradox is the idea that while the potential of extraterrestrial life is infinity possible with many worlds and galaxies out there, if they exist, where are they? The great filter is one explanation, that in order for a civilization to advance to interstellar travel, no cataclysmic event can occur that would “filter” them out from achieving it, and there are many such possible filters. Humanity is hurtling towards its demise, and religion is presiding over its funeral. Christianity could be helping humanity to lift itself out of its self-inflicted harms, it could bring people together to avoid these harms; it doesn’t have to be an innocent bystander to the end of the world.
Like a lot of these types of books, the author tries hard not to put a hand on the scale, agreeing with the books assumed readership that both leaving and staying are appropriate choices for people to make and don’t indicate moral failure. But the book does conclude with the reasons to stay and then gives methods to make it work. That could be the author’s actual preference, or it could be that people who are done with Church aren’t going to buy this book. I was impressed that most of the haters doing reviews were doing so because they saw him as anti-religion and anti-Trump. This isn’t a book for them, but it is about how they are ruining Christianity for the rest of us, so it looks like they got the message.
An unexamined, status-quo Christianity is not worth perpetuating. I cannot and will not stay Christian if it means perpetuating Christianity’s past history and current trajectory.
Brian McLaren
This discussion reminds me of the discussion about police reform. Is Christianity, as it exists today, redeemable, or are the changes that are needed so fundamental that it has to be burned down and started over from scratch? There’s ample evidence that adding more diversity to the existing police department structure doesn’t make a difference; it just changes the race & sex of the cops who commit murder (see Tyre Nichols’ murder in Memphis). Is that the situation in the Church? Given the percent of leaders who have been cultivated for decades based on their willingness to do as they are told and their conservative bona fides, I suspect it’s too late to reform it, and even if we did, who’s left to do that work?
- Do you find any of Brian McLaren’s reasons to stay or leave compelling? Which ones and why?
- Do you see other ways (than those I brainstormed) that these arguments apply differently to Mormonism than to Christianity at large?
- Do you think Christianity is redeemable or needs to be burned down and started over? What about Mormonism?
- Which of these reasons (pro or con) would you like me to do a deeper dive on in an upcoming post? (Pick as many as you want, and I’ll consider it)
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
Interesting ideas. I’m going to go off on a tangent….
I am somewhat weary in some respects of the whole identity/ appropriation arguments, which on the one hand are understandable, some of it recent and painful, perpetrated by European nations, and on the other seem only to divide..
If we take Europe, our tribal identities were stripped long ago by the inroads of Christianity, where religious festivals were replaced with Christian celebrations etc.. And now we see movements trying to regain those identities being seized upon by white supremacists for their own ends, which is far from good. Should we blame the Romans empire?
And yet memories can be long… I recall a childhood holiday in Wales where my blond siblings and I were described as Saxons on account of our blonde hair…, my family tree as currently represented on family search has viking ancestry… inevitable once you hit royalty, and a large proportion of the population does.. my father had red hair, my mother’s was dark! We’re pretty much all mixed up by this point.. our traditions have become Christian traditions, that is what unites us culturally at this point…
I sometimes think everyone everywhere is suffering some kind of cultural identity crisis just at this moment, we all want to know who we are in a rooted ancestral sense, and there’s centuries of trauma for all of us if we only go back far enough..
Maybe our leaders are on to something when they emphasise our identity as children of God, and brothers and sisters, and if we can’t grasp that and let the rest go the world will fracture, as it is, and as we read in miniature in the BoM
And now I guess I am way off topic. But I think the Christian message can be one of unity (if it leaves space for diversity), but which long ago was employed for political ends..
The reasons you listed for leaving Christianity are very legitimate. They remind me of the reasons many members leave the COJCOLDS.
But as I have stated here many times, my reason for leaving the COJCOLDS is that I no longer believe the truth claims of the institution. And likewise, the reason I’m questioning Christianity now is because most of what I was taught about Christ came from the COJCOLDS. It’s pretty logical actually. If a person no longer believes in the COJCOLDS, that person may also start the Christian teachings of that institution.
For many of us, our beliefs have evolved from TBM to progressive to PIMO to simply Christian to agnostic. I’m not yet an atheist nor am I about to start worshipping Satan. But it’s very difficult to hang on to Christianity and Christ given the utter corruption and historical revisionism of Christian churches throughout time. I’m not even sure there was a Christian Church until that concept was invented many years after Christ’s death.
I don’t tell anyone what to believe or not believe because I frankly don’t know what I believe. I used to view that kind of thinking as a sign of spiritual weakness. I hope God (if he or she exists) sees it differently. Some of us are just seeking the truth and we can’t unsee what we’ve seen.
OP: “Personally, all the best people I have known in my wards in the last decade or so have left. ”
Where there is smoke there’s fire. After I’ve left the building and recovered from burns, smoke inhalation, and trauma maybe I’ll return to help put out the fire.
I like reason #2 to stay. Once I made the move to define my relationship with the church instead of letting it define that relationship, anxiety about all of the issues almost immediately faded away. I’m fine attending and saying yes or no to callings, requests and assignments as my heart and mind dictate. This is the “both-and” solution to the problems with Mormonism.
Reasons to Leave
1. I have a Rabbi friend who has been completely confused by LDS folks getting DNA testing and reporting to him that they are a certain percentage Jewish. He asked me “What do I do with a 20% Jew? I don’t even know how to respond to that!”
6. I’ll quietly point out that the patriarchy we are experiencing in the Church now excludes a significant proportion of the active LDS men. The Church no longer socially promotes older men by ordaining them high priests. They remain Elders. Older Elders tend to go inactive. It is not hard for them to conclude that many of the church opportunities for their retirement years will be diminished because of their lack of “leadership experience.” Being a greeter at the temple isn’t something most “hierarchically-minded” men aspire to. So they quietly leave. As noted below, I wish they’d stay.
7. LDS teachings could potentially reshape into something very positive for the 21st century, IF the institutional church allows it to happen. Some conservative LDS theologians now frequently engage in arguments which negate the possibility of future revelations. That is odd, especially when frequent modern revelation is the hallmark of LDS teachings and practices! It is almost as if they have it how THEY want it, so they have reached over and turned off the revelation faucet exclaiming “That’s enough, we need no more revelation!”
Reasons to Stay
IMO, staying on one’s own terms is a very positive option. You have to be aware there will be pushback (which is painful) from those who should be helping you stay. And I understand if you can’t stay or that once in a while you engage in another activity on Sunday, even visit another denomination. But seriously, the Church will vanish into the sand without those who stay on their own terms. And on the plus side you get to stay and annoy those who think so little of you! They certainly won’t miss you if you leave no matter how loudly you slam the door on your way out. Stay and build the community in ways YOU feel called to do. The power of people called by the Church is much weaker than the power of people called by personal revelation. I have a hope that the alchemy of people who are broader-minded will be beneficial to the LDS community in the long run. It also protects those who are vulnerable to the thinking (or lack thereof) and politics of those in leadership positions at this time.
Old Man, I love your statement on staying on your own terms. Thank you!
The insight from McLaren’s book that really hit me is the idea that there are more options than:
1. Staying compliantly.
2. Leaving defiantly.
I decided to stay defiantly. To me, this doesn’t mean being ornery or combative, but I can speak up when the spirit moves me. I can be, like Christ was, an activist. I don’t have to quietly accept all teachings, policies, and doctrines.
The first step in my staying defiantly was to follow Emma Smith’s example and I took a copy of D&C 132 and through it in the fire.
I can agree with the good parts of The Proclamation on the Family and reject the damaging patriarchal parts.
I can stand firm in my dedication to equal rights and reject teachings, scriptures, and policies that promote sexism, racism, genderism and other isms.
I can develop a relationship with my Mother in Heaven and pray however I want.
I can respect those who stay compliantly and those who leave defiantly.
hawkgrrrl, not to evade your questions, but I’m a little surprised McLaren didn’t list historicity as a reason to leave (though maybe it sorta fits into reason to leave #9). That seems to be even more of an issue for Mormons than Christians at large given how recent Mormon history is, but if one doesn’t believe the basic Christian narrative about God, heaven, Jesus, sin, and atonement, that may be enough to convince someone to walk away. My impression after reading the list was that it presumes at least a basic level historicity to basic Christian concepts such as the existence of God and heaven and the ability of someone to atone for the sins of mankind, but maybe I’m reading into it something that isn’t there.
This is my personal experience only and I recognize that everyone’s experience can be different.
I do not see a way for me personally to stay in order to be an effective ally. As someone who is known to be a nuanced believer in my faith community, my platform disappeared. My family is no longer asked to speak in sacrament meeting (including my teenage kids, go figure), we aren’t called to teach, and essentially our mic was cut. When we come to church, we are passive participants only. All this despite having never gone on any sort of angry tirade or said anything controversial at church. I suppose it’s possible this is all coincidence but I doubt it.
Not everyone gets to be a Charlie Bird and maintain the privilege to keep their platform and enact change. And sometimes I feel those telling other people to stay either are oblivious to the privilege disparity or are trying to shame people to stay to help the hypothetical while neglecting that those leaving may also have left to preserve their own mental health. All that to say, I dislike #1 (and tangentially, #2) as reasons to stay.
Not a Cougar: To you point, I don’t see a lot of people leaving other churches because Noah’s Ark is a fable, or the Tower of Babel is all made up. But people do leave Mormonism when they find out the BofA is all made up.
I have read Brian McLaren’s book “Faith after Doubt”, which is the lead in book to “Do I Stay Christian” . I am now reading Christian Kimballs book. The themes of those books is well summed up by Old Man’s point of staying in the the church on your terms. I am whole heartedly in agreement with that sentiment. Old Man’ observation about older Elders in the church I can identify with because I fit that category. I am also realistic enough to to see that I will not be able to change things in the church. As a result, I started to doing church activities on my own terms. I am content to as Christopher described it, being a backbencher wearing a blue shirt with no tie.
Bill, yes, no disagreement there. My personal opinion is that historicity impacts Mormons more simply because we have a lot more truth claims that are necessary to make Mormonism function, but how many Christians remaining practicing Christians if they fundamentally don’t believe that the basics of Christianity are real? I don’t really have any insight into that.
Probably what resonated with me most with McLaren’s book is the suggestion that the best place to be in a religious institution is often somewhere on the edge. Of course, my perspective in Community of Christ is quite different from those of you connected to the COJCOLDS. But especially after retiring from church employment back in 2009, I’m much more at home on the inside edge of the church.
I like to think of myself as having a prophetic voice in my congregation, although I’m quite sure some just view me as a troublemaker. Whenever I preach I know there’s a good chance two members of the CofC First Presidency may be seated in the congregation (or at some point watching the online streaming, live or archived). Anyway, I haven’t been chastised or excommunicated yet, so I take that as a hopeful sign.
Great post! Well, they all deserve deep dives. But in terms of deep dives I’d appreciate, under 10 Reasons to Stay, I think 6 & 10 kind of go together and merit further discussion. Fermi’s Paradox is a great rationale for solidarity and seeing our species and this planet as precious. I’d also very much appreciate a deep dive on 9, “To Free God.”
I don’t understand the Christian need for an Atonement.
I don’t understand the Endowment. Going through the temple for the first time began my serious doubts about the Church.
Work for dead is also problematic. We have existing earthly problems that are so much more critical.
Why do we need chapels that are empty 95 percent of the time? Empty buildings seem like a colossal waste of resources.
I’m 100 percent in on tithing. But not how it’s currently being spent. For example, why do we need McTemples? Individual members should be allowed to allocate the money themselves. Ironically, the Church leadership doesn’t need our tithing money.
Both Christianity and its subset Mormonism are problematic for me.
“But nobody will disavow polygamy because of their not-so-distant ancestors and the hope that they too can have a harem in the eternities.“
Do NOT underestimate the appeal to males of endless sex with multiple (i.e., a kazillion) wives in the Celestial future. Heck, boys, there prolly won’t be time for nothin else! This is the LDS equivalent of a beer commercial: have another one! After 27 beers you won’t remember the first 20 – IOW this concept is not woman-friendly.
I am currently reading this book, I loved his book Faith After Doubt.
I find all of his reasons for leaving and staying compelling… but only a couple of them match up with the reasons that I consider leaving, or the reasons that I choose to stay, and they miss some of my biggest reasons for staying.
The ones that hit closest to home are staying reason #2 I can stay on my own terms. And #7 Because I’m human and I benefit from belonging to a community (and this is the community that my ancestors belonged to, that I was born into, and that my whole family belongs to.)
But the biggest reason I choose to stay is that I think being raised in the church led to great outcomes in my life, and I think that raising my children in the church will lead to great outcomes in their lives. I recognize this is not the one and only path that leads great outcomes, (and that this path doesn’t lead to great outcomes for everyone in every situation) but I think that for me and my family, it is a valid path that leads to great outcomes. The church teaches great values, and if I can stay on my own terms and keep the good while disregarding the bad, then great. If someone can show me a better path that leads to equally good or better outcomes, then open to listening. But so far, this is the one that I know, that I’m comfortable with, and that works great for me and my family. (As I’ve mentioned in previous posts, this may be due to privilege- but that’s where McLaren’s reason to stay #1 comes in- Because Leaving Hurts Allies and Helps Opponents).
I stay because I know it’s true–that’s the short answer.
I disagree with Jack on a lot of things but I admire his sincerity of belief.
——
What does it mean to be a Christian? Or to be a Mormon? We don’t always mean the same thing. It could mean a statement of belief in certain things, a commitment to behave in certain ways, or membership in a club, or some combination of those things.
I’m terms of belief, I realized a few years back that I can’t directly choose to believe in things. I can control my information I take in and only listen to certain sources, which will certainly influence my belief system. If you want to know how that’s going, well what do you think I’m doing here at Wheat and Tares?
In terms of commitment to certain behaviors, I think I’m largely still Christian. Maybe even more Christian. I’m no longer concerned about who drinks coffee or tea. I think I’m less hypocritical than I was as an active member, less concerned about what others think of me.
The “club membership” seems to me to be the least important aspect of the whole thing, but it also seems to be the most important to “The Church”. It also seems to be what a lot of those 10 reasons to leave or stay focus on.
Like others above, I think the truth of the beliefs is an important consideration, especially in the Mormon church. The general membership of the church and correlated materials generally insist on a literal belief in the doctrines of the church and scripture stories. People make decisions based on these literal beliefs. They choose their career and education based on whether God wants them to be an stay at home mom. They make decisions about politicians based on whether god wants people to have children. They worry less about the environment because the second coming is imminent and the world is going to be burned or maybe celestialized into a sea of glass anyway, so why stress about a little climate change. It really does matter whether people hold false beliefs or not, and I think the church encourages people to use unreliable methods to form their beliefs.
I’m thinking Jack has no idea, like the rest of us. Then again, it’s a strange universe.
Jack,
What does “it’s true” even mean?
I tried.
Rather suddenly, unexpectedly, and unwantedly, I didn’t believe in God anymore. As I regrouped, I read much, thought deeply, and tried to figure out what attributes were of a God I could worship. I kept attending church, trying to support my still believing family.
It was never enough. Over the years, it became apparent that if I didn’t believe the same way they believed, then to them, I was bereft. There wasn’t a place for me on the edge.
For my own emotional and mental health, I left.
In practice, the 11th Article of Faith is difficult for believing members to apply to members whose beliefs change.
Jack, I want to know what “it’s true” means too.
I have explained to my 18 year old who is struggling with deciding about a mission, that it’s just something we say to signal we are part of the group.
I explained that if he wants to serve a mission he can respond to the recommend questions with “I hope”, “I believe” or “I have faith”. No one really is certain completely of anything even if they say “without a shadow of a doubt”. People that have no doubt have no faith and no critical thought.
I think the way our culture uses black and white true or false language, is harmful to our children. All or nothing thinking is deeply harmful to relationships, mental health… and to testimony.
I have an autistic son who struggles with abstract grey concepts. He doesn’t say much. He attended church as we told him to until he was 18. Then he said he prefers not to attend church because he can’t believe in a God that would order genocide. That was the end of his involvement in our community (no matter how I tried to help him see things in a more grey way).
The biggest loss is to my son though he can’t see it. As a person with autism he needs a social community to direct him in his social activities. Without it he has no one but us.
In my opinion, the more we teach our children to see that the church is neither completely true or completely false the better we can prepare them to make good decisions based on real information, rather than setting them up to feel betrayed and choose to leave our community because they can only see us as false and hypocritical.
They see right through us getting up and saying “it’s true”. It sets them up for 3 choices:
1. Decide it’s false and leave.
2. Decide they are defective when they pray and don’t get an answer.
3. Pretend they got an answer and say it’s true to go along with the group.
I prayed and had an affirmative answer at that age. But my children don’t seem to think like I do. They can’t seem to get answers like I did. And they are too honest to pretend they know like my sister tells me she did at that age. My heart hurts to see them leaving an organization that I know could be a great support for them.
I ask those who care about our youth to change your language. Don’t say “it’s true”. Leave room for people who don’t “know” to stay with us.
To me, at least, only propositions can be true or false. The null hypothesis is either confirmed or not. A book can’t be “true,” though it might contain statements that are true. A church can’t be “true,” although it might teach some truths. Joseph Smith might have seen Jesus: that can be true or false (though incapable of proof either way). But “church” isn’t a statement: it is neither true nor false.
A limited but useful metaphor:
My wife and I just celebrated our 35th anniversary. After so much time and experience living with her I can happily say, “it’s true.” In other words I can say with full confidence that I know she loves me and that she knows I love her. Now is that the kind of knowing that a mathematician has in solving a simple equation? No–but it’s real knowledge nonetheless. Even so, that kind of knowledge — as sweet as it is — doesn’t tell the whole story. There’s also a kind of knowledge that is purely subjective–and yet even more real. And that is: I can say with even greater confidence that I *know* I love my wife–and no one can shake me from that conviction.
Jack,
You come in here and make correlated claims of knowledge and testimony in a regular basis.
You do this knowing that your claims will be refuted by the vast majority of commentators at W&T’s.
I am not suggesting you shouldn’t comment, on the contrary, I find the threads where you make your assertions to be the most interesting.
My question is: what do you hope to accomplish? From my perspective it appears that you know your own beliefs are tenuous and you hope to shore them up.
That, however, is not fair because only you can vouch for your own beliefs and motivations.
Perhaps you believe the old canard that testimony will change minds. That however doesn’t seem to be working out so well for you.
Maybe you really are a troll and you just like to stir things up.
I am truly curious about your motivation, and would appreciate you being open regarding that and how you perceive your results.
Maybe the permanloggers could give you the opportunity to write your own post and explain yourself in greater detail.
Robert Monson,
I have a couple of reasons for participating here. One of them is that I’ve had some good conversations–there are a lot of thoughtful commenters who frequent this blog. Sometimes things can be a little unpleasant — and certainly I’m partly to blame for that — but overall the positive outweighs the negative. And of course, on occasion there are things said here that (to me) constitute “fighting words.” And so it’s hard for me *not* to chime in. Also, there are the lurkers which I assume far outnumber the regulars–and I went them to know — depending upon the discussion at hand — that there are other valid points of view.