If you are somewhat new to engaging with Wheat and Tares, you might be wondering who this new blogger is, but I was an active blogger in the past. Over the last few years I just can’t say I have had something I felt work writing about. Like many others during a faith transition, I had several years of really intense dive into many of the topics covered on Wheat and Tares. Many (most) of my posts were very therapeutic for me and very much helped me work through issues. I appreciate the Wheat and Tares group allowing me to participate.
In case it helps to know where I have landed about 10 years since I started questioning some of my beliefs, I think I kind of fit in the role of what is usually referred to as “PIMO” or physically in, mentally out. But even within the realm of PIMO there can be quite a spectrum of how IN one can be and how OUT one is. Maybe I need to trademark, “There is more than one way to PIMO.”
I am not all that “in”, but I do go to Sacrament Meeting and Gospel Doctrine as my wife appreciates not being there alone. She has graciously offered that I don’t have to go, but I told her I will let her know if I find it hard to attend. I asked not to have a calling. I have told the bishop that I no longer pay tithing to the church, but instead give to other organizations. I have known my bishop for 25 years and worked close with him over the years. To put it a bit self-serving, but he has seem me really sacrifice for some of the callings I have had and he respects that. He has read the book, “Bridges” by David Ostler after I suggested it to him. He said he liked it. When I handed over my recommend to him, he just asked, “How can I help you and your family?” Yep, I have not won the lottery (because I have taken too many stats classes and never buy any lotto tickets), but I did win big on the leadership lottery. We still can have discussions, but of course he isn’t interested in diving into each of my questions. I think I am still a bit “in” because of my wife’s desire to continue to be a fully active member. Otherwise I think I probably wouldn’t be attending.
And I am widely advertising the “mentally out” to ward members. With some that I have shared I have passed on one of the several copies of the book “Bridges” that I own. So far that has gone well. I think that book is great for LDS members, especially leaders, to better understand those that leave and how to respond to them. I feel it has been one of the most useful and important books in this area as it is written by what seems to be a very loving and highly credentialed LDS member (as in a former stake president and former mission president – and fully believing).
And just the last few days I think I have found a book that is impactful as “Bridges”, but focused on another audience. The book is “Living on the Inside of the Edge: A Survival Guide” by Christian Kimball. It seems in no way pushing the reader to stay in the church or leave the church as it isn’t about the validity or non-validity of truth claims or positions/teachings of the church being correct or incorrect. It is focused on helping those that are not all “in” the church, nor those that completely distance themselves from the church. It is for those that for whatever reason are not fully believing, but still are participating in some way with the church either due to an internal desire to stay somewhat connected to the church or being in a situation requiring it, such as a professional in Utah were not being seen as a member can impact your livelihood.
Being a bit of a space enthusiast, it seems to me the book is not for those who’s feet are firmly planted on planet Mormon or those that are far away, but those that are a satellite being pulled by the gravity of planet Mormon and also centripetal forces counteracting that and pulling away from that planet. And just like satellite’s circling the eartht, many people in this space are occasionally jostled into a different course by individual issues and large meteors coming close to the earth. The 2015 policy of exclusion dealing with how the church changed polices when the US legalized gay marriage nudged some to be more distant from the church and I could see a spouse doubling down with “you have to believe or I am leaving” could be a situation that pulls one in the opposite direction.
For those on the inside of the edge, the book does not make any value judgements on what particular orbit you might have, but is focused exclusively on giving advice on how to live with the tensons and defines a few potential paths one might follow. And on some paths it wars they are uphill battles. He does touch on some of the main reasons people stay and acknowledges these as viable paths, but does warn that some can lead to burnout and instead suggests focusing on changing your ward might have more success than attempting to change the whole church. But even then he warns that something like a new bishop or stake president can undo all of one’s work.
And if I can go off in a small tangent here, I would like to focus on those that stay to make change. I recently read a book called, “Do I stay Christian?” by Brian McLaren. This is a good book that gives reasons to stay and reasons to leave Christianity. It is surprising how much it maps to Mormonism. But McLaren also mentions the path of staying a Christian to help improve the church from within. He comments how many that leave Christianity fall into a “cult of innocence” where they leave and feel that them leaving they move into being fully virtuous for no longer being one of the “bad guys” as a member. But they have not done anything to help the situation and those around them. I found that quite interesting.
But back to Christian Kimball’s book. I think the main thing that I got from the book was the reader pushing for those inside the edge to “grow up” a bit and deal with the church not as a parent/child relationship, but more of somewhat equals. He strongly and repeatedly pushed for someone to be differentiated in their relationship with the church. The author mentions that he knows that adamant “ex-mo’s” are probably going to put his book down quickly as he doesn’t push to confront the church on it’s “wrongs”, but he focuses on how individuals inside the edge can better live in this space by being an equal level with bishops and other leaders. These leaders are a human and you are a human – yeo equals. You don’t have to bow down and grovel to a bishop because you no longer believe, but neither should you disrespect or attack leaders just because they are part of the church. I absolutely agree with this advice. It can take years for someone to be able to like the author does and tell the bishops, “I don’t sit ‘interviews’, but if you want to chat sometime that would be great.”
There are several times when the author describes a situation in a technical way and I fully expected for more specific examples or scenarios to be given. But I sense that Kimball doesn’t want to do that and I am OK, but I do wonder if some others might be able to make the suggestions more applicable with a few more examples.
Kimball gives quite a few descriptions of how the church works that to me are spot on. Someone growing up in the church one might subconsciously know these, but calling them out is helpful for someone contemplating staying inside the edge. One that he really describes well that most anybody (including believers) would recognize as the of the role of the stake president. I agree with Kimball that the buck stops there and you as an individual have very little recourse if you are at odds with your stake president. You can be someone that wants to keep a temple recommend or if you are OK not having a recommend, but he suggests you manage that relationship well. Because if the stake president feels you have crossed a line or are not towing the line such as having a certain declared belief, things can go sideways for you – and there are not many avenues for challenging a stake president.
The book is well organized and the first few chapters are generally what you would expect from the titles: Working with Yourself, Working with the Institution, and Working with the Culture. These are chalked full of wise words on how to navigate inside the edge.
Kimball calls out several times that he has privileges that others don’t. He is a professionally successful white male with a grandfather that was a president of the church. He acknowledges that others will have different challenges on the inside of the edge and gathers several essays from others for perspectives from women, singles, LGBTQ+, Black members, and then several dealing with families.
I was listening to this book* and didn’t catch who was giving the woman’s perspective. It really hit me that as much work as I have done trying to better understand how women must feel, the essay really impacted me. Then I went back to the book and realized it was given by Susan Meredith Hinkley. I was a little less surprised as I LOVE listening to her and Cynthia Winward on their “At Last She Said It” podcast.
I was also touched by the last essay by Kajsa Berlin-Kaufusi as she talked about her “all in” father and how they got to a place where they can respect and love each other without having to believe and feel the same on every item. A model for “differentiation” from both of them.
So if you feel you are in the position of not fully in nor fully out of the church, there isn’t a better book to help navigate being a satellite on the inside of the edge of planet Mormon. It is no wonder that it has achieved the rank of Amazon’s “#1 Best Seller in Mormonism” category! It is a testament to both how good the book is AND just how many people there are “inside the edge”. Kudo’s to Christian Kimball on the wisdom he has learned over the decades and his willingness to share that via this book.
*This book is (currently) offered in Kindle or Paperback. But if you buy a Kindle book (or borrow from a library) you can use Alexa to have it “read” the book to you. I have tried the Alexa app on my iPhone and a Windows PC (both free to load). There are a few times it trips up on some homographs, such as the word “live”. In often verbalizes the incorrect word. The difference being “live on stage” (verb with short ‘i’) “live your life” (adjective with a long “i” sound). Even on the second case, it pronounces the verb form. But I have found this very helpful as I can mow the lawn (not mentally taxing) and listen to a book.
Wheat & Tares 
Christian Kimball here. Thank you! Nice review. If you get a chance, PM me about places where you’d like more examples. The book is already long enough, but that’s all worth thinking about.
The real reason for a comment is to say there’s an audio version coming. That’s a different process on a different schedule than print publishing. We’ve targeted mid-February. I have some hope of beating that.
Thank you for this thorough, heartfelt review. I believe David Ostler has an interview with Chris Kimball on his (David’s) podcast this week. I’ve been intending to listen to it, and it sounds as if you might be interested as well.
Thanks Christian. I will probably need to run through it again to get some specific spot where I was thinking, “OK, so now he is going to give an example.” I don’t see this as a significant drawback, but just something that came to my mind while reading it. I will get back with you.
And let me just say again how excited I am for this book to be out. I have worked (and thought) through several issues.
I already heard you on MormonLand and Listen Learn and Love podcasts as well as Jana Riess writeup. Glad to see you are getting some “press” coverage.
@beth T – Did you mean RICHARD Ostler’s podcast? David’s brother? Richard does the “Listen Learn and Love” podcast. I heard the episode with Christian and Richard and it was a good episode. If David Ostler also has a podcast I would be interested to know the name as I just tried to search for it and came up empty handed.
The Christian Kimball also appeared on the MormonLand podcast. Jana Riess also wrote about the book. I think there will be others reviewing this also as I can’t say enough about how good this book is – at least for those that it applies to.
Regarding David and Richard Ostler, they are both friends and I am happy to be associated in any way. Richard has the Listen, Learn, and Love podcast. My conversation with Richard was published yesterday (January 31). David Ostler’s “Bridges” is important and valuable and comes at much of the same territory from a different direction.
I’m only part way through the book, and I’m enjoying it. I’ll agree with the OP’s comment “There are several times when the author describes a situation in a technical way and I fully expected for more specific examples or scenarios to be given. But I sense that Kimball doesn’t want to do that”.
I don’t have a specific place where I wanted an example- just in general I thought it was going to be more of an autobiographical book like, “This is how I Mormon, and maybe that will be helpful for you.” But it’s a different type of book. To me, it’s more of a technical book like “Here’s a different way of looking at your relationship with the church- and here are some good questions to ask yourself as you navigate it.” If Christian were to write another more autobiographical book called “This is how I Mormon and so can you! (Or you can do it your own way because there’s not just one right way to do it).” I’d be interested in buying that book.
(P.S. Due to my Mormon upbringing which ingrained in me a desire not to offend, it’s very anxiety provoking to write a review that the author is going to read. No offense intended Christian 🙂 Thanks for sharing your wisdom and writing this book! )
aporetic1, Im sorry it’s anxiety provoking but I do understand the culture and I’m not offended AND I’m not intending to back out because my being here might be difficult for others. :-). That’s all consistent with the book.
I tried very hard not to write a “here’s how I do it” book and tried to insert myself only where it seemed clear that I’m a work in progress, walking the rocky road myself.
Frankly, I’m a little surprised that anybody would be interested in how I do it. But then every interview and presentation I’ve done has included a lot of quite personal questions, so maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.
If Chris(tian) Kimball is reading these comments, I just wanted to thank him and his Dialogue co-conspirators for the Dialogue Sunday (School) Study webinars, which is the closest thing to “Mormoning” I do nowadays, even if it’s only once every couple of months.
It was an important part of my Sunday morning during the early months of the pandemic . And it still reminds me of what Mormonism could be if real Christians (pun intended) were creating LDS curriculum and leading class discussions.
I am hoping to read the book. I am more on a just outside being inside orbit than a just inside being outside orbit, but I am curious how one might navigate staying at least nominally inside in the current environment. That’s not for me, it would be dishonoring my LGBTQ son to give any allegiance to the current institution, but hard to completely disavow my Mormon heritage and 50 years of being deeply embedded.
Excited to see this review and the author’s comments here as I am almost done with the book and can’t put it down. I read an eclectic array of religious/spiritual stuff (Richard Rohr, the Givens, Michael Singer, Adam Miller, religious texts like the Baghavad Gita and Dhammapada) and then I return to my own faith and relationship to the institution and get discouraged, like “now, what?”
This survival guide is exactly what I have needed for years. Somebody not telling me what to think (I get enough of that from the Authorities) but HOW to think. I am waking up to how much my parent-child relationship to the church has stunted my growth as a millennial Mormon woman. Time to grow up and I so appreciate the inspiration to do so!
@christiankimball, Thanks for being here and engaging in conversation. I love it. I can understand your hesitation in making the book about you and the way that you do things- the whole point of the book is that each of us has to figure it out for ourselves. With that being said, I thought the most interesting parts of the book were the real life examples you used from your life, like, the chapter on raising kids. It was fun to see a window into what you did and how it turned out for you, but it in no way felt prescriptive. I think that you and your experiences are more interesting than you think.
@Christian on your comment of “But then every interview and presentation I’ve done has included a lot of quite personal questions, so maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.” When I was listening to your interview on MormonLand, I was a bit frustrated at the start where they were probing for you to describe more about yourself, I was thinking – “It isn’t about Christian and his exact path, it is about the subject he wrote on and the wisdom in that – so get on to that more important topic that the book focused on.”
How well does the book take into account the challenges and perspectives of those living outside of the US?
I have started reading the book and am really enjoying what Christopher is saying. I can fully identify with author’s faith journey. I am looking forward to reading the rest of the book. Christopher, if you are reading this, My mother served with your father in the Netherlands Mission in the late Forties and she thought highly of your father.
@Canadian Dude
I don’t recall specifically any references to “outside of the US”, but there were some points about how if you are out of the Mormon corridor (is Alberta the northernmost tip?) things can be a bit different. I would assume some of these will be applicable if you are in Canada.
I’m really looking forward to reading this, and I loved Christian’s interview on MormonLand. It squeezed my heart to hear his reaction to listening to hundreds of TR interviews. It’s honestly hard to imagine how anyone can move up in the organization and not have their faith tested. The older I get, the more obvious some of these psychological pressure tactics become, and the more clear the rifts between the gospel Jesus preached and (gestures wildly)… this.
Happy Hubby: Glad you mentioned the Brian McLaren book as I’m working on a post for next week about his 10 reasons to stay / 10 reasons to leave. His arguments are about Christianity in general and don’t need much re-interpreting to map neatly onto Mormonism, although there are a few things that Mormonism does differently (better or worse) than Christianity does more broadly which I’ll point out in my post.
Canadian Dude: I thought Alberta was basically the Mesa of Canada. (Mesa is the Provo of Arizona).
Alberta = Mesa? Certainly not in temperature – especially if you quote it in Fahrenheit vs Celsius!
@ Happy Hubby
While I may or may not be within that specific corridor in the US/Canada, I find that too many of these kinds of books have problems of applicability outside the specific sociocultural circumstances in which the authors themselves lives and operates.
But I don’t admittedly know that for sure as I haven’t read anything suggesting it mentions or even deals with Mormons/Mormonism/Mormonism faith crises outside the United States.
Where I live there are a number of cultural similarities between here and many ‘liberal’ parts of the United States- but even ‘here’ there exists substantial sociocultural differences as to to perhaps dull that applicability, and we’re probably one of external areas that would be mor, rather than dissimilar to the most of the authors’ contexts.
Different constitutional frameworks within society; different kinds of government institutions; differing societal contestations and consensus views re: issues such secularism; the role of religion within society; and more.
No text is universally applicable nor can be tailored for everyone’s specific problems or issues, but so just haven’t heard who and where most of the essay-writers and authors are/from.
In some countries or specific geographic regions the church is relatively new, a respected minority, with a growth-positive sociocultural context – its membership might even be tempted with privileges, status, and connections from powerful state or societal actors that may see the church and its members as ‘natural allies’ against perceived enemies and/or ‘harmful influences’.
In other parts of the world the church might be a minority or a strong minority with flagging public status as state and societal actors increasingly associate the church (rightly or wrongly) with traditional conservative values and policies now considered harmful.
Mormon kids and young adults in AB Canada,
(with their Gender and Sexuality Alliances, and education on Canada’s Residential School history) is gonna to look at the church and its member’s activities elsewhere a little differently than those in other sociocultural contexts. We are a people that, like any other global religious group, are going to have different insights and blindspots often peculiar to our different contexts.
Then there are those rare places where we have been the majority for a long time (albeit through settler-colonialism) but with a rapidly growing minority population with a diverse multitude of different faiths, sociocultural practices, values, etc.
These are just three kinds of vastly different kinds of contexts within which Mormonism operates. They are generalizations and nowhere near the width nor breadth of all the many possible contexts within which members live.
I just would like books more like these to be more explicit as to their likely demarcation of applicability and relevance.
Canadian Dude. I think the book is more general and there will be some work needed by the reader as to “how to apply this to my life”. If you want to get a feel, go look up the book on Amazon, click on the “look inside” and you can read a bunch of the introduction.
I make no explicit reference to anything outside the U.S. nor am I qualified to do so. One of the included essays comes out of Sweden but I doubt you’d know it by anything in the essay. On the other hand, my personal experience within the U.S. ranges from Wisconsin to the East coast to Utah, and the included essays range even farther. To the extent it matters (opinions vary; there’s a decent argument the principles and applications are general enough that it doesn’t matter; but that’s surely an eye-of-the-beholder question) this book is U.S.-centric but not Mormon corridor-centric.
I’m Canadian also (as is Di, if I recall, who lives in Calgary).
Here’s a brief, flawed, geographical/sociocultural overview of Mormonism and Alberta, with some mentioning of other provinces..
Alberta is 1.5 times the size of California, so LDS populations are variable. Southern Alberta around Cardston is very Mormon. And it’s all small towns, so I’ve heard it feels like small-town Utah. Lots of people there send their kids to the BYU’s for school, politics tends to be very conservative, lots of farmers. (My Dad grew up down there and noped out as soon as he could.)
As you go further north to Calgary and Edmonton, cities of about a million each, you’ll find stakes that have been solid for generations. I was an adult before I heard the phrase “mission field” and the idea that we never have church leaders from the mission field called to high Church positions because “in the mission field they desperately need all the leaders they have” is complete BS. Some people have ties to southern Alberta, but not all, and things are more progressive, especially in Edmonton. Very few members send their kids to the BYU’s. Edmonton has a long-standing Institute that draws YSA from across Canada, started in the 50s by N. Eldon Tanner, branch president at the time.
If you go east to Ontario, which is where most Canadians live, church is similar to the East Coast of the States. Expect to hear some rousing, intellectual discussions in Sunday School where people know the thornier parts of church history. Our East Coast is the maritime provinces, with small populations and small church populations. I’ve never been to Winnipeg in Manitoba (our version of the Midwest), but I hear it’s an established area.
I live on the West Coast now and I’m still trying to figure out WHY my current ward is so rigid and B&W. It’s truly strange – the Canadian equivalent of moving from Utah to California and discovering the members are way less welcoming of nuance. I’m in hippie-land with the most dogmatic members I’ve ever met.
It’s an interesting thing being a Canadian church member. I can do that my-ancestors-are-in-the-D&C thing just as well as anyone, but there’s an outsider quality to watching how the Church reacts to US politics. When gay marriage was legalized in the States, the church called for a special 3rd hour meeting to talk about it, and insisted that we do it in Canada as well. Except gay marriage had been legalized years before for us, so the whole thing felt bizarre. Way too many US Saints think of us as the 51st state….. we don’t appreciate it.
Christian, I absolutely love that you included other voices in your book. If you ever do a 2nd edition, how about an international perspective?
Sorry, it looks like I was typing at the same time as Christian, so I missed that one of the invited voices was Swedish.
I haven’t read the book yet (although I plan to), but it sounds to me like it is also applicable to international members.
Margot, et al, I already get “what’s next?” questions and I want to beg off for a year-long nap. But one of the most obvious and most likely to actually happen is a book that is almost entirely contributed essays in the style of what’s in the current book, from all over the world and all variety of circumstance. I’ve already received one (well done, but not a particularly good fit, in my opinion) and encouraged a few more. If that sounds like “how about you” to anybody, take it that way.
Thx @Christiankimball, @Margot, and @Happy Hubby
I appreciate each of your commentary, though truthfully I’m still confused by the book’s methodology and how one can be confident of its relevance to church audiences globally.
Alternately maybe I’m using the wrong set of criteria meant for a different kind of book; albeit I think there’s a need for more books on Global Mormonism; and how to negotiate one’s practice/relationship with the faith (staying or leaving) with advice that’s more socioculturally and regionally specific.
Yeah, @Margot I know of those small towns and other AB Mormon geographies pretty well, though I’ve never lived (as a practicing member) in the provinces mentioned. One day we’ll have to get together and do a Canadian Mormon sociopolitical series of blog articles on here.
MARGOT – I truly appreciate your in-depth spotlight on Canadian Mormonhood. Would you please consider submitting a Guest Essay to this page – on any topic you choose? It would be super-well-received, I am sure.