There is an old saying that goes: “A conservative is a liberal that has been mugged.” [1] The opposing saying is “A liberal is a conservative who’s been arrested.”
I sometimes wonder what the Mormon equivalent of this would be. I came up with a few listed below:
A progressive Mormon is a TBM with a gay child.
A TBM is a progressive Mormon with a child healed from cancer
An Ex-Mormon is a progressive Mormon that was shunned by their family
So what could you add? What causes a seemingly orthodox TBM to become a progressive, or even an ex-mormon? Conversely, what causes somebody who has left the faith to return to full belief?
For me it was a mixture of my inquisitive mind, linked with reading Sunstone magazine in our LDS Institute building. The Institute Director subscribed to it and left it laying around for the students to read. This was the late 1970’s before it was widely known. (nobody knew it was “bad”)
So one could add for me: “A progressive Mormon is a TBM that reads uncorrelated material”
What can you come up with?
[1] The original quote is “a neo-conservative is a liberal who has been mugged by reality” and is attributed to Irvine Kristol
Wheat & Tares 
I would add, humorously, a third definition from the “outside world “ that I think is clever: a conservative is a liberal with a teenaged daughter.
The Mormon examples that Bishop Bill offers are good, too.
I personally am not too fond of using the phrases “progressive Mormon” and “TBM,” because I feel that the phrase “TBM” is a bit condescending. Perhaps the cynic in me, but I detect a bit of snark in that label. I think that the people whom progressive Mormons call TBMs would prefer to be labeled as “orthodox Mormons” — but then, the problem for me is that many orthodox Mormons assume that their personal beliefs, and the prevailing beliefs of the larger Mormon culture, are orthodox, when they are not—they tend to be part of Mormon folklore. I am thinking particularly of issues like evolution and birth control.
I like the distinction between “Iron Rod Mormon” and “Liahona Mormon” that Poll came up with, years ago. Maybe we can refer to “Gospel-based Mormons” and “culture-based Mormons,” but the latter term is a bit snooty.
I think we are also all of us mixtures: some progressive in us, some True Blue at the same time.
My nominations:
(Humorous) a progressive Mormon is a TBM who realizes that his local church leaders can say crazy things and claim them as doctrine.
(Semi-serious) A TBM who will last in the Church is someone who does NOT accept everything from the mouth of every G.A. as always being true, and realizes that they can be contradictory—but this same TBM realizes that there ARE elements of the Divine in the Church that bless our lives, and that our leaders are trying to do their best and often do say true things.
Got to say that the title says it all! When something is in conflict with the truth there just isn’t a decision to make. You’ve got to go with truth. However you see that.
And I’d add I’m a lifelong liberal who’s been mugged (in college) and managed not to have my core beliefs shaken by the experience. It’s a mistake to let an event overwhelm a world view.
I hadn’t heard those original sayings before. If I may, I might add that a conservative could also be “A liberal who has learned he or she can love his or her neighbor far more efficiently than any government can.” I’ve seen a few examples of that in my life. I’ll admit many still struggle to live up to it, however.
I have mixed feelings about the word “progressive,” as I think many liberals have hijacked it. I see myself as “progressive” in the sense that I want to see the betterment and progress of mankind. I simply differ in the best way to go about it and what constitutes improvement. However, I understand its use for the purpose of the discussion.
I can think of a few additions for both perspectives, but they’re difficult to put in writing without coming across as snarky, so I’ll refrain.
I think the reality is that many members are a mixture of things (as TM mentionsed), and that some aspects almost seem interchangeable. For example, I know many TBM who seek to know the deeper mysteries of God through deep scripture study and studying the words of the prophets. I know other TBM who say “Read the scriptures, attend your meetings and the temple, but avoid pondering things that do not immediately pertain to you.” I consider myself in the former camp and a more conservative member, but some almost treat that mystery exploration as more progressive. I guess semantics is a part of it.
Some ways I might consider myself a more conservative LDS:
I believe the Church is what it says it is in every sense.
I believe, with few exceptions, Church polices have a sincere and generally divine purpose, even if we don’t immediately understand why.
Some ways I might consider myself more progressive LDS:
I believe Church leaders do make mistakes from time to time. They’re just as mortal as we are
and mortality is just as much a test for them as it is the rest of us.
I read uncorrelated material and occasionally even anti material (but I usually end up measuring them against the standard works).
I don’t shy away from extraordinary human acheivement. I think the world seeks to be godlike without trying to be godly. I think LDS try to become godly but sometimes shun becoming godlike. I think there is a ton a good that could be accomplished with the Savior’s blessing if more LDS sought to be both. Nephi got the sealing power and started a famine. We may not necessarily need the sealing power to accomplish the Lord’s desires on a scale such as that.
I think sometimes it is about taking the journey and enjoying it as Pres. Monsen admonished and becoming an explorer of first your own mormonism and reaching some levels of understanding about teachings and principles. Pres. Hinckley invited those who were not members to join us and bring all the good they understood and combine it with what we have to offer.
I began a study of what was involved in Judaism and found fascinating ideas. I was raised around Catholicism, I have been all over and am especially interested in greek translation and our scriptures….Bible…and Book of Mormon because they are intertwined in content. It has been very insightful to explore original meaning. There is a problem with historicity but it does not mean that there are not good truths behind the stories. I do not feel someone else should interpret them for us, however. It should mean what it means to personally.
There are things I have come to my own conclusions about on my journey..but they are mine alone, one in purpose is different than one or same in thought. I love Joseph Smith’s writings on the cosmos. They have helped me come full circle and look at things differently NOW. TBMormonism has been a great path to explore and has enriched my life and its teachings and verities are now engrained in my heart.
I have experienced the gay brother, children who have chosen not to participate, dealt with my own questions and have come to the understanding that questioning is at the heart of all learning contrary to counsel from the top down. Faith is a concept that is deeper than a belief. Faith is underlying..beliefs can fall away with experience and be replaced Knowing usually comes from the mindI I will tell you in your mind AND IN YOUR HEART. It is feeling that is usually ignored. Or we would be more Christlike. I have grandchildren growing up in Utah who are being ostracized because rhey are not at church…breaks my heart!
I have been an active tbm for 65 years and am now taking a perennial rest. I am hoping others will allow me that and not try to figure out if I am having a faith crisis or have been offended…else why would I not be in church? I still feel very blessed as is my family even though we have stepped away from the outwardness of “active”, we still have inward verities that have been learned and practiced. Perhaps we can just observe where people are and look at their lives as an example and not have to label….tbm, progressive, x, etc. If your light shines…it shines! Jeffrey Marsh quotes Joseph Smith in his book The Light Within as having the oldest book in his heart.
I, too, have been “mugged” by reality. ALL IS WELL!
,
As Alice says, the title says it all.
Years ago, my wife and I bought a copy of the latest edition of the National Geographic World Atlas as a Christmas present for our children. The last section had several beautiful artist’s renderings of the Universe. I remember the write-up that accompanied this part of the atlas: it said that the Universe is not only stranger than we realize, it is stranger than we can BEGIN to realize.
Same about “Truth,” I think. I think many TBMs and many progressive Mormons like to fit things into their own neat little constructs, and we become disconcerted and sometimes angry when the way we have imagined things does not turn out to be what actually is. The reaction of most people, IMO, is to double-down and insist on what has been discredited by reality. Changing our attitudes is hard.
Fortunately, God is some where in all of this messiness, and we are often lucky enough to discern Him.
My personal journey a few years ago; A feminist Mormon is a TBM who was told woman can’t say the opening prayer in sacrament meeting.
I somehow managed to get into my mid-50’s before I heard the term “progressive Mormon”. To me, everyone was on a sort of “valiancy” scale. Silly me.
In the 90’s I was introduced to the concept of the “cyber-year” – the notion that the accelerated rate of technological progression effectively shortens time. They thought that a cyber-year was about three months back then. It must be a matter of days now.
So how does a religious system that retains a 19th-century world view and espouses mid-20th-century white American family social structures, proclaiming them to be god’s own eternal truth remain relevant?
BYU started teaching evolutionary biology in the 1970’s. In 1987 I was an Elders quorum president counseling a student (biology major) in a faith crisis. Boyd Packer had given a BYU devotional denouncing evolution. The faculty wrote to the first presidency, who brought BKP in and admonished him to not speak on things that he did not understand. They instructed him to write an apology letter which was then read to the biology students. My friend’s problem: Why wasn’t the letter read to the other 20,000 students that were in the devotional? In the 1990’s, the religion department was finally asked to quit telling biology majors that they were going to hell for believing in evolution.
It would be a safe bet that one could find people in every ward of the church that still believe that evolution is wrong, the earth is 6,000 years old, that there was a global flood, and that the continents divided at Christ’s crucifixion. All things that could be set straight in under a minute in a conference talk.
Ancient cultures accepted LGBTQ+. Some even gave special reverence and prominence for these “blessed” among them.
So many “eternal-truths” become transient in light of understanding a broader view of human experience and history, a deeper look into a more powerful microscope, or further into space.
So, I’m going to say “Mugged by the Cyber-year”. Mugged by holding on to notions and proclaiming as truth things that can clearly be demonstrated as not being true. When continued relevance depends on continued ignorance, you can say bye-bye in a generation of nearly universal information.
A libertarian saint is one who has compassion for people of all stripes, may have been mugged, may own a gun or six, cares not what a person does in their own life decisions as long as it doesn’t infringe on the rights of others, is a non- interventionist, agrees with progressives and conservatives on many of their individual values, is against the war on drugs and other countries, and may be too utopian for their own good. I ought to know.
Taiwan Missionary, yes! I should have said that first you’ve got to be sure that you’ve been absolutely fearless about looking for the truth with an open heart and then letting it take you where you need to be,.
Thanks for making that clear!
Thanks to BeenThere! Appreciate the anecdote about BKP and evolution, and the comment that so many “eternal truths” become transient in light of understanding a broader view of human experience and history.
The same comment applies to all the finally-now-disavowed theories about why there was the ban on African-Americans holding the Priesthood. They were finally disavowed, almost 40 years after the 1978 Revelation, but there are still a lot of Church members who still believe them, and will insist on sharing them. Don’t read what Mark E. Peterson wrote in the Deseret News about the civil rights movement: it will curl your toes in embarrassment.
Serious question: how do we as a Church move past things we now know are not true? Church leaders don’t want to contradict previous generations of Church leaders, fearing that by doing so, we diminish our claims that they were God’s spokesmen. So they just try to ignore the comments, and suffer through the periodic embarrassments that erupt when these past statements come to light.
I think that a cultural change would help, one that would allow Church leaders to more forthrightly acknowledge past errors, without worrying that that will undercut people’s belief in them as spokesmen for God. Such a change would actually strengthen MY belief in them.
One last thing: I am 67 years old, and have trouble coping with the pace of technological change. There is something that I think is called Moore’s Law, that says we are now completely reinventing ourselves technologically every 9 years. That means a lot more knowledge to process, and that a lot more theories currently in use will be discredited. I think Church leaders struggle with my same challenge.
Henry Eyring Sr. spoke of young people being taught a young earth as gospel, going to college, learning better, and “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.” He wasn’t blaming the young people for it–he was blaming those who taught scientific falsehoods as gospel truths. Unfortunately, an ex-Mormon is too often a TBM who threw the baby out with the bathwater.
Tim
I agree that it would be unfortunate for someone to leave the church over something as simple as old teachings of scientific falsehoods as gospel truths. I don’t think that would sway a TBM.
It is the practice and attitude of refusing to acknowledge or – gasp – repent of those false teachings that gets to a TBM. The list of things mentioned already above by commentators and in other W&T posts ([priesthood and temple ban, polygamy, massacres, misogyny, blood atonement, Adam God, B of A, etc.) that makes the bath water more than slightly soiled.
The stench of that fetid pool of bath water could be washed away by humility and fierce honesty on the part of leadership. With that, a questioning TBM could perhaps see a way forward that didn’t compromise their integrity and sensibilities.
As it is, the instinct is strong to save the baby from the bath water.
Tim, BeenThere, I enjoy the back and forth here. As someone who is best described by the term ex-mormon, I have to say that I don’t think I threw the baby out with the bathwater. I have kept many of the values and practices I grew up with in the church, Of course, I get that someone else will look at what I tossed and saved and think I tossed the baby out. And I also look at other ex-mormons and think that they have tossed the baby, even though I know they would say they only tossed the bathwater.
Which speaks to Taiwan Missionary’s question about moving past things “we now know are not true.” Part of the key is being really humble about what “we now know”. It’s going to change. Even saying that “we now know” something seems almost prideful, given how many things have been changed, discarded, disavowed. It’s a fascinating conundrum for a church built on the idea that we can know, by personal revelation and by churchwide revelation to the prophet, what is true.
And so, for me, I love speaking with other open minded people connected to Mormonism (TBM, ex, progressive, whatever, etc.) about what they believe and why. It’s one way I try to get closer to the truth.
TW, thanks for your comments. The current leaders have had no problem throwing Brigham Young under the bus. Their statements and actions regarding Adam-God and priesthood (along with many other issues) have fueled my faith crisis. Makes me wonder if the leadership in 50 to 75 years will do the same thing to RMN and DHO about LGBTQ, “Mormon”, etc.
@Taiwan Missionary 12:55
“Fortunately, God is somewhere in all of this messiness, and we are often lucky enough to discern Him.”
Thank you for this.