Introduction
Today’s post is about leaving communities with strongly defined beliefs, and how the former community member’s beliefs might change (or not). Some people leave because the community’s beliefs and practices hurt them personally. Some people leave because their values no longer align with the community’s values. What does it take to cause someone to re-examine their values?
LDS Regret
From reading years of comments here, I know many of us in the W&T community left the Church (or became nuanced or PIMO), at least in part, because it conflicted with our values. The Church’s dishonesty about its history and its wealth, the policies against LGBTQ people, the patriarchy, the hypocrisy about abuse, the racism and refusal to apologize, and so forth. These are values-driven reasons to leave the Church. Those of us who leave for these types of reasons are unlikely to return. We’ve lost our testimonies.
The Church likes to teach that people leave the Church because they got offended. These people exist. There are people who quit attending Church because something happened to them personally — a conflict with a leader; a bad experience in a calling. When someone in this category returns to Church, they tell a beautiful story and testify about forgiveness. Their values and worldview didn’t change; they always had a testimony; they just needed to process through a difficult experience. The Church makes the mistake of thinking everyone is in this category. (Perhaps it’s because the ones who leave Church for values reasons don’t return to testify so the faithful members and leaders don’t hear those stories.)
Of course, a combination of these two reasons happens too. Someone gets offended, leaves, and then that distance gives them some time and space to realize that the Church doesn’t align with their values.
During the early years of COVID, some people quit Church because President Nelson recommended vaccines and masks. I don’t know much about this group. Was that a ‘values’ reason to leave Church? Or an ‘offended’ reason to leave Church? Do these people still have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? Are they gradually drifting back into the fold now that President Nelson is gone? Or did their values change and they’re not coming back? I don’t know.
MAGA Regret
As the economy deterioriates and Trump goes to war in the Middle East, some of those who voted for MAGA regret their vote. Not everyone, but some. I want to compare MAGA regret to leaving the LDS Church. Is the MAGA regret based on a shift in the person’s values? Or is it because they got hurt personally?
Tucker Carlson has come right out and apologized: “I do think it’s like a moment to wrestle with our own consciences,” Carlson said on “The Tucker Carlson Show,” referring to the role of his and others’ support for Trump. “You know, we’ll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be, and I want to say I’m sorry for misleading people.” [source] However, he’s apparently still clinging to the Big Lie that the 2020 election was stolen.
Clearly, Carlson’s values have not changed. He’s just mad at Trump.
Much of the anger against Trump right now comes from the Iran war, the cost of living, and from posting a meme about himself as Jesus and lashing out at the Pope. These folks, like Carlson, are ‘offended’ by Trump’s actions. But I bet many of them are still conservatives and still believe in everything Trump campaigned on.
Reevaluating Values
Let’s change focus a bit to talk about the voters who got hurt by the campaign promises that Trump kept — they just didn’t expect those policies to affect them. These people might be the ones who could rethink their values; have a change of heart; leave MAGA and conservative values behind and become progressive.
For example, this woman:
[image id: a headline that says, “I nearly died! Where’s the pro-life in that?: MAGA mom horrified as doctors tell her she can’t terminate a fatal pregnancy due to strict new abortion laws.” end id.]
Is she now pro-choice because she realizes that government restrictions on abortion can cause real harm? Or is she just upset that the rules applied to her?
Or these people:
[image id: two columns of headlines. The first column is titled ‘how it started’ and has a headline that says that the Teamsters’ Union, which has traditionally supported Democrats, is supporting Trump. The second column is titled ‘how it’s going’ and contains three headlines about Teamsters losing their jobs due to Trump’s policies. end id.]
Do the Teamsters now feel empathy for all the federal employees who lost their jobs last year? Or do they believe that Trump should have personally made sure to protect their jobs, but they’re still glad that Trump fired all those federal employees?
Or take the MAGA voters who lost a loved one to ICE:
[image id: an Instagram post about a Trump voter who is dismayed that his wife was deported to Venezuela while she was getting her immigration papers in order. He appeals to Trump to help him bring her back home. end id.]
Does this man now believe that everyone deserves due process, respect, and human rights? Or does he still support what ICE is doing to everyone else, but his wife should have been an exception?
Change or Not?
Folks, I don’t know if Trump voter regret is going to spur a national change in values or not. Probably the answer is going to vary. Some will have a change of heart; some will feel personally betrayed but still believe in the values that led them to vote for Trump in the first place. Perhaps the blasphemy Trump is committing will cause Trump voters to re-examine their values, even though personal tragedy and the suffering of others wasn’t enough to cause a deep change. (I’m fine with any reason if it brings Trump voters back to a worldview of respect for human dignity and a commitment to the rule of law.)
So what brings a person to examine their values and change them? As opposed to getting offended, but still holding onto their values? Is it the same in both the LDS context and the MAGA context?
I’m going to say that empathy is a huge factor. Does a hardship guide someone to see how much they have in common with everyone else? MAGA separates society into groups and teaches hatred and suspicion towards certain groups. Could suffering lead some former MAGA to realize that we’re all human beings? And EVERYONE should be treated as human beings? I know that while I was deconstructing my LDS beliefs, realizing that our Church wasn’t special, that it didn’t have all the truth, helped me feel connected to everyone else in the world as I gave up that belief in being extra blessed (superior).
Some harden their hearts during hardships though — their attitude is that other people deserve the hardship, but they didn’t deserve it.
Faithful Through Tribulation
Tucker Carlson has acknowledged some wrongdoing, but he still stands by his lie that the 2020 election was stolen. Perhaps, as he has time to unravel the lies he’s told, he’ll come to admit that lie as well. It was all lies. Everything MAGA said about immigrants, transgender people, gays, abortion, DEI, racial equality, feminism — it was all either an outright lie, or something that might have a kernel of truth was so exaggerated and taken out of context as to become a lie.
It takes time to deconstruct. I know my testimony came apart in chunks over a period of several years. There were some huge leaps while deconstructing, and then smaller things. As MAGA processes the betrayal so many of them are feeling right now, the changes may take time. Some may be angry only about the Iran war right now, but with time, they’ll see that Jan 6 was Trump’s effort to start a civil war.
What causes someone to cling to their values even though it hurt them personally? Church leaders, of every Christian denomination, teach that you must cling to your beliefs in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Believers are blessed if they hold onto their faith through a miserable situation. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped form; the evidence of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1. Religious believers are taught that the sunk cost fallacy is a virtue. Never let go of your beliefs. Never. The Book of Mormon is very clear that if you know the truth, and then you turn away because of trials, you’re in serious trouble (2 Nephi 31).
The piousness of MAGA voters would teach them to hold on through the difficulties. But Trump’s attack on the Pope, and that meme of himself as Jesus — that’s not just a trial of faith. Some are suggesting that’s an indicator of the anti-Christ. But thinking Trump is the anti-Christ is still looking at the world through a conservative and religious lens. Their values aren’t changing; they’ve just cast Trump in another role.
Questions:
- Do you know MAGA voters who regret voting for Trump? Are they changing their values? Or just shocked at Trump’s behavior while still believing in the principles of MAGA?
- Do you think empathy plays a role in changing values?
- Do you think Republicans will try to reinvent their political party to support the rule of law again?
- The LDS Church is especially eager to say people leave because they want to sin. If it’s sinful to support gay and trans rights and women’s equality, then yeah, I guess I’m sinning. If certain values are sinful, then is the LDS Church correct that people leave in order to sin?
- Did you ever persevere through a trial of faith? Were you afraid to quit believing because of the scriptures that teach severe penalties for abandoning your faith?
Wheat & Tares 
Most of the MAGA voters that I know about are in the camp of Katlin Jennings. “Oh, but it wasn’t supposed to be MY passport that got the wrong gender marker.” As if every other trans person can just suffer and SHE deserves an exception. She is trying to contact the president to ask for HER passport to be corrected, but still totally supports tRump.
My tRump supporting relatives just disbelieve all the bad stuff. Inflation is STILL all Biden’s fault. tRump was not convicted of anything and all the accusations against him are just hate because the libturds don’t like that he is saving America from destruction of having a “man” in the ladies restroom—so they send in real men to drag out an extra tall woman because they think she *might* be trans. Both political sides are just as corrupt, because Biden’s son was guilty of selling his paintings and tRump’s sons making a killing off the war daddy started is just them doing business like everybody else. tRump really believed that picture was him as a doctor healing the guy, as if doctors wear Jesus robes. The pope is just hateful. The war is totally justified because Iran was going to attack us? They just keep believing in spite of everything because they refuse to believe anything bad because THEY would never vote for a bad person.
They are some of them actually changing their values to match tRump’s because they cannot stand the cognitive dissonance of realizing he is against their values. I have relatives tha have become LGBT hateful when they were not before because they just worship everything tRump and they must agree with him.
They are doing exactly what cult members do as their prophet, oh, say, introduces polygamy. How many early Mormons changed their values to accept polygamy when they were at first horrified. Instead of saying, “this religion does not match my values,” they changed their values.
So, instead of leaving the tRump cult because it does not fit with their values, they are changing their values.
I’m much more interested in the LDS discussion here than the political one. I’m a 40-something and what I see from long-time friends is increasing discomfort with a church that doesn’t seem to be interested in the values that we hold, and the confusion we feel because we thought that the church was the *source* of those values.
We grew up with “Jesus said love everyone, treat them kindly, too,” and somewhere in entering into adulthood we seem to have reached that radical conclusion that we should actually do that. My wife likes to say that it’s not a ‘faith crisis’ but a ‘confidence crisis’. I no longer trust the organization of the church, particularly senior leadership, to do the right thing and let the consequences follow. It’s not truth claims from 200 years ago that cause the problems, it’s the present day behavior of the church that is inexcusable.
Excellent post, Janey!
The ever increasing amount of excellent biblical scholarship, as well as scientific and archaeological evidence, has made need for any kind of “restoration” a fiction. It also makes all “restoration” scriptures irrelevant in terms of restoring anything ancient. To me, it makes anyone who claims to speak for God or claim authority to speak for others, highly dubious!
Definitely a misalignment of my values for all the reasons stated in the OP and more.
I am well aware that this viewpoint, is not shared by millions of believers.
I don’t know any MAGA supporters except my John Birch brother, who is near impossible to talk to. The only MAGA supporter viewpoints I’ve seen are the ones being interviewed at a rally by Jordan Klepper- he was incredulous- so was I !
I was going to relate what I said about tRump supporters back to the church, but then my hubby needed my help and it was a choice between continue later, and big chance of loosing what I had already written, or just come back later and start a new comment and I went with new comment.
So, I mentioned that I see tRump supporters who actually change their values to stay “good MAGA supporters”. As tRump gets crazier annd crazier, they keep andjusting their thinking. And I have seen the same thing with the church. People change their values to stay with their group. Well, some 70-90% of them do. We Wheat and Tares people are not that 70-90%.
DaveW above said that we all grew up with, “Jesus said love everyone. Treat them kindly too.” Well, the same rule of cognitive dissonance hold true for religion. When you identify yourself as Mormon, and are taught the prophet speaks for God, 90% of people will align their values to the church rather than stick to their own values. It is just how we do cognitive dissonance. It works just like those psychology experiments where they have the different length lines on the chalk board and have two conspirators and one guinea pig in the room. The two conspirators say all three lines are the same length, and the guinea pig changes their belief of what their eyes tell them to agree with the conspirators. They actually will say later that the lines were all the same, when clearly they were not. They change what they believe to align with the group.
So, no matter what you grow up being taught in primary, when the church comes out saying to change how you treat your child who is gay, the biggest group of members change that “treat them kindly” into “treat people kindly UNLESS they are gay.”
People normally change what they believe to go along with the group. That is the “rule” of how cognitive dissonance works. So, people who grew up with “vaccines save lives”, get around a bunch of yokels saying “we should get to decide what we put into our bodies. It is our RIgHt.”” They will change what they believe to go along with their group.
But when it comes to abortion, suddenly “my body, my choice,” changes into, “no abortion kills, so you don’t have rights.” Because their group is against abortion. They never think through that “my body, my choice,” should apply to all people, they just listen to their group. It is not really a value, and going along with the group overrides their thinking.
Most people never really think through their values. They just go along with their group and if the group changes, they do too.
But us Wheat and Tares people are that 10% or so who think through our values and really THINK about what *we* think and value. We would be those odd people who stick up to the conspirators and say, no, I think that one line is shorter. The nature of our discussions here says we are the odd people who think through our values and go against the group.
The more of us there are voicing the idea that we can disagree with the prophet, the easier it gets for others to follow along with us in rebelling.
What’s going on with the MAGAts—especially LDS MAGAts—isn’t mysterious in the slightest. As other commenters have already noted, they’re not actually repenting of their viciousness and cruelty, but only lamenting because that exact same viciousness and cruelty is now hurting them as well. Make no mistake: If they could still magically confine their cruelty to others without it splattering back onto them, they totally would.
I know it’s not going to be popular here to quote the Book of Mormon unironically, but, well, the book really does describe these LDS MAGAts to a tee, and that description has obviously sailed clear over their heads:
12 And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their mourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would again become a righteous people.
13 But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin.
(Mormon 2:12-13)
Unfortunately, I don’t see a lot of repentant MAGA people. The ones I know will back him to the end. They ignore facts. They ignore consequences. Even when one of them *nearly* had a family member run afoul of immigration due to some errors in paperwork that were not their fault (the lawyer made some mistakes), they were very worried, but when nothing happened to them, they continued to believe in “the cause” as much as ever. There’s a whole lot of drinking propaganda from a hose, strawmanning what those godless evil libtards are up to, and ignoring the increasing evidence that they’ve been lied to over and over by a grifting conman.
One thing I’ve noticed over my 70+ years is that when you change the meaning of words or ideas, you change behavior. Here’s just a sampling of words or ideas that have changed. Liberal, woke, diversity, equity, inclusion, democratic, empathy, and even Christian. Some ideas, we’re a Christian nation, it’s good to be a Christian nation, Jesus is my Savior, and Trump is my President, we’re a republic, not a democracy, or we need to run government like a business. Some words and phrases conjure up terrible images that misrepresent people, such as welfare mom, soccer mom, immigrant, drug-infested, or war on drugs. We’ve gone from faith, repentance, baptism, and the holy ghost to the proclamation of the family as the center of our gospel. From seeking out of the best books to only talking or teaching about the latest conference talks. I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that what used to be a simple gospel has now become clouded. Not remembering our history or where we came from has allowed many to change their direction. I think the whole thing can be summed up with people clamoring to get the Ten Commandments posted in schools and public places, but calling the Beatitudes “woke” or a sign of weakness. Finally, loyalty or obedience has become the measuring stick of righteousness, not the scriptures, or “truth” from the best books about history, science, and the arts. Even people who have left the church or are disassociating with the MAGA movement are characterized as intellectually lazy when, in reality, it’s been one of the hardest things any of us has done. It truly is the last days when people call right wrong and wrong right, saying loe here or loe there, or proclaiming (posting) false Christs. Arrggggg, it makes me sick.
Aw damn. :(((
Do you think there’s any chance? Even if the MAGA crowd never becomes kind, maybe they’ll at least stop voting.
I have talked with quite of number of people who have left the church. Overwhelmingly, the church simply became a place where they just didn’t feel right anymore. It could be because of historical issues and they just can’t unsee what they’ve seen. It could be over cultural issues and Mormon culture simply feels too suffocating for them. It could be over LGBTQ rights and the church appearing outdated and homophobic. But what ties all the ex-Mormons together is that the church is simply not somewhere where they feel at home and cannot feel that way no matter what they do.
I’ve been continuing to attend church as a non-believer for a decade. I’ve felt like an imposter for that entire time. It is difficult wanting to connect with people but knowing that situations may arise where I have to define a boundary and have to decline something and in which they will think that there is something wrong with me. Some secret sin I’ve been hiding. I feel ultimately I can’t be me.
As for MAGA, you’re only realizing stuff about Trump just now?
Friends, I’m a Californian, born and raised. Mormon on both sides since they wagoned and hand carted to settle in Utah. Family came out to California in 1905 and 1931. My parents used to take us to Griffiths Park after church or the Hollywood Bowl for a concert when we lived in Southern California, or to Sigmund Stern Grove in Golden Gate Park for a concert after church on Sunday sometimes missing the third church meeting in the afternoon for better family time in a beautiful setting.
My point is that I would hazard (literally) a guess that most of you that have commented, have, for many years lived in Utah, where the church is everywhere. Sometimes a blessing, sometimes not, and due to the membership in Utah being right of center politically you hear about their political leanings, because they deem it safe to do so in the that community.
I don’t see the church in my California location being driven by Trump loyalists. People tend to keep their political ideals to themselves and interact with members in our ward because they like each other regardless of political thoughts.
I have come to realize that I was essentially raised a nuanced Mormon and have participated in church activity my entire life as such. My wonderful parents (rip), raised us to love and interact with many different types of people regardless of race or creed. Their upbringing of me and my siblings prepared me to endure a mission president and his looney GA cousin and their ridiculous “added missionary rules and doctrine” in Sydney in 79-80, because my parents had taught me by the Saviors most important directive “love,” and I learned pretty quickly that my local mission leadership was “rubbish.”
My experience from my mission and the rest of my adult life has caused me to always keep the Gospel and the church separate. “Ya gotta keep em separated.” Otherwise, you allow “The Church” to run your life. I continue to participate in the church because I love the people, mostly, but know that I can tell them to “back up” when they are, on rare occasion, getting into my business.
So my overall thought is that perhaps, those living in Utah, that are here, reading and participating in W&T discussions, are feeling a little “surrounded?” I am interested to know where most of our W&T crowd live.
Please feel free to “Flame Away” with some of my assumptions above.
Cheers Friends
I live in Northern California. The vast majority of members in my ward and in my stake are loyal, dedicated Trump supporters. They do not hesitate to bring up politics at church, and I would wager they think Trump’s shenanigans are just fine. (In fact, based on their radio silence, I would wager that many, if not most, Church leaders also think Trump’s shenanigans are just fine.) What a colossal disappointment all around.
It felt like mental torture when I quit my church (The First Church of Christ, Scientist). Twenty years ago. I deconstructed false loyalty to a personality to build up loyalty to God, Truth. I deconstruct blind faith in dogma to build up faith into practical spiritual understanding that reveals Christ-spirit. I wrote in Science and Spirituality: Celebrating the 150th anniversary of the first edition of M.B.Eddy’s Science and Health,
“Humans can pray or practice mindfulness. Humans can train or be trained to toughen themselves against physical and mental reactions. Humans can try to control the image other people have of themselves.
Humans can adjust their sensibilities. But these techniques come with the risk of doing, or seeing others do, awful things and being afraid to call out the wrongdoing. More alarming is the subtle complacency that believes the awfulness is natural, normal, or undefeatable.”
“The best songs resonate with a readiness to leave the useless for the useful. The best sermons inspire us to stop practicing wrongdoing and practice right doing in mind, body, spirit. The best individuals tell the truth and do not hide any wrong done. The best science confirms that creation does not own or control but borrows intelligence and substance from infinite mind.”
Part of deconstructing LDS beliefs is being exposed to other beliefs. Other people. Other lifestyles. And then drawing our own conclusions about how those different value systems line up with our own values. The MAGA tunnel vision doesn’t see other people, beliefs, experiences. It’s like my LDS world before the Internet. I literally didn’t know anything else.
I suppose the most we can do is continue to speak out against MAGA values. It won’t sway the most dedicated. The ones on the fringes, though, the ones that start to question. They need to see that there are other viewpoints. Nothing could have gotten through to me while I was at my most faithful and most LDS, but once I was ready to see, knowing there were other resources out there went a long ways towards validating and encouraging my deconstruction.
MAGA’s stranglehold will continue for as long as the propaganda machine keeps going. The Constitution guarantees freedom of speech, but there are limits on speech. You can’t yell ‘fire!’ in a crowded theater, for example. There are limits on commercial speech — like truth in advertising laws. Slander and defamation aren’t a crime, but the person slandered and defamed can sue the speaker. There are some precedents and ways to limit harmful, malicious speech.
I suppose (in some small way) that I should offer a minor salute (certainly not admiration) to Janey, Dave B and a handful of others – who by all appearances and by the words, phrases and declarations they deploy – live in a perpetual state of Victimhood 24/07. I simply don’t understand it and surely don’t want to live this way myself; but I suppose one must admire someone who is entirely saturated with offense, aggrieved to the maximum, affronted at every turn and yet somehow continues to minimally function. MAGA or not, LDS or not, what a monumental waste of time and life. The outrage radiates off of you folks in waves (to such a degree) that I can no longer even feel pity for you. Rather, you have become bloviating caricatures; who don’t even seem entirely real. Normally, I’d simply say “Geez, get a Life” – but, I think you might even be beyond that.
@grizzerbear55 If you are an active LDS member, then you have just confirmed what many of us now see. Many members of the LDS church do not follow the teaching of Jesus at all. In word only, but not in practice.