I’ve been fascinated to review who in the church has been opposing the vaccine President Trump was proud enough about to suggest it should’ve been named after him. His followers continue to call it Trump’s Vaccine.
Is it Biden supporters who are insisting it is too dangerous, slipshod and a conspiracy?
Or is it Trump supporters who claim Trump’s vaccine is an act of treason and sedition against the United States?
In the LDS Church is it those who are in favor of prophetic infallibility or those who feel that isn’t really appropriate who take a similar tack with President Nelson joining President Trump in getting vaccinated?
What have you experienced?
Why do you think that is the way things are unfolding?
Do you think the backing away from Prophetic Infallibility is a good thing?
Do you agree with Brigham Young that unquestioning following of authority will lead people straight to hell, or do you think that every leader is entitled to absolute obedience, even when they are opposing current church policy?
There is definitely room for all sorts of positions. I’m not debating that, just curious where on the spectrum each group follows, especially considering yesterday’s post about a Civil War in the LDS Church.
“Preserve, then, the freedom of your mind in education and in religion, and be unafraid to
Hugh B. Brown
express your thoughts and to insist upon your right to examine every proposition. We are not so
much concerned with whether your thoughts are orthodox or heterodox as we are that you shall
have thoughts. One may memorize much without learning anything. In this age of speed, there
seems to be little time for meditation”
“When the Prophet speaks, … the debate is over” (Ensign, Nov. 1978, p. 108).
N. Eldon Tanner
“We do not have a doctrine of infallibility.”
Cecil O. Samuelson Jr.
“In this Church we ask for faith, not infallibility.”
Jeffrey R. Holland
Wheat & Tares 
The 15 Apostles are special witnesses of Jesus Christ and when they speak of Christ and his atonement, a TBM should pay attention. But what any of them has to say about vaccinations, immigration, LGBQT policies, alcohol policies, the MX missile, etc. is really irrelevant. Like the saying goes, they should stay in their lane. We are watering down the concept of revelation to include the most practical policy changes in the Church. And that kind of thinking is very damaging because if everything is a revelation, nothing is revelation.
If you happen to believe that RMN (or any of the other 14) are smart, experienced men whose wisdom you are interested in hearing, that is fine. We all turn to various sources of perceived wisdom. But to attribute this “wisdom” as coming straight from the Lord is another thing all together. I don’t think the creator of the universe has an opinion on 2-hour church or vaccination.
Note: Get vaccinated. It’s common sense
Stephen raises an issue that is absolutely crucial here. That issue is the failure of the masses to educate and inform themselves about Covid-19 so they can do their own thinking.
The great hordes of today have taken laziness and made it an art form. Instead of reading and researching the important issues of the time, they sit around in their sweatpants and crocs waiting for someone to tell them what to do so they won’t have to think.
This leads to blindly following a charismatic government leader. It was dangerous in the days of Kaiser Wilhelm II, a madman who led the world into warfare that essentially lasted the entire 20th Century. It is equally dangerous today to blindly follow government leaders.
With that being said, the obvious correct choice is to become vaccinated. However, the Church leaders are wise in not becoming a tool of the government in mandating that all members get the vaccine. If the government can compel obedience in good things, it will be all the easier to compel obedience in bad things next time.
I think the demonization of reluctant vaccinators and threats of mandates or forcible vaccinations have the opposite effect than what is desired (vaccination). By introducing those ideas, opposition to vaccination is no longer about relative medical benefits or global citizenship. Instead the issues are about who owns control of their own body, who has the right to dictate health care for others and when do the rights of the individual take a backseat to the will of the masses. Mr. Spring’s statement ” If the government can compel obedience in good things, it will be all the easier to compel obedience in bad things next time.” is absolutely correct.
The pillorying of non-vaxxers is counterproductive. Current vax rates are high (>50% in the US, >15% in the world). This is a remarkable achievement for such a short time. Getting that many people to do anything is amazing. Some folks just need more time to process risks. Let’s not make this a fight over civil liberties by mandating anything.
And I prefer slippers and sweatpants to crocs.
The church needs to make sure that it does not engage in the sort of nonsense that the CDC engages in. The CDC wants people to be vaccinated, but then wants the vaccinated population to mask up and social distance. This causes the unvaccinated to ask why they should get the vaccine. The CDC’s nonsense creates the impression that the vaccine doesn’t work and regardless, life doesn’t change for those who get it.
The church leaders should do better than the CDC. They should advise members to get the vaccine, but must reward them for doing so. No more masks, no more distancing, and no more bans from activities in the buildings for those who are vaccinated.
@squidloverfat, can’t help but notice how your arguments about the vaccination debate are the same for abortion. NOT looking for an abortion debate but I’d say my anti-vax contacts are very pro-life and don’t see any contradiction. (I know they’d argue abortion kills babies and not getting a vaccine doesn’t hurt anyone, but that’s not true. People reducing vaccination are and will continue to cause deaths of actual born and living humans.)
Which basically just goes to show it’s about ideology and not rational.
Personally I’m with Josh H. It’s fun to get mad about how the people who aren’t getting vaccinated are the same people who think I’m sinning by not opposing gay marriage or whatever, and that’s certain hypocritical of them, but it would be equally hypocritical for me to insist they follow the prophet. So I’ll stick with follow the science and follow Jesus (by loving your neighbor which I think includes not recklessly putting them at risk of serious illness or death).
I think there is a lot of merit to the idea that the church and Q15 should “stay in their lane.” However, in practice, they often travel far and wide and dabble in all sorts of issues. Their comments and positions on many, many issues are often taken as doctrine by many members of the church. I find it not a little ridiculous that they feel comfortable taking strong stances and the church even lobbies on more liberal issues like gay marriage, the ERA, socialism (on older demon), and marijuana, (all well outside the topic of Christ and His Atonement) but somehow have the self-restraint NOT to speak out strongly and directly in favor of people getting a vaccination – an issue more likely to alienate conservatives. Not to mention, a gay couple getting married will literally in no way hurt me, but unvaccinated people do actually put my higher risk 6yo in more danger. The church can lobby and mobilize the members against Prop 8 for months in California but the prophet will only post pictures of himself getting vaccinated during a pandemic? I am fine with the church/leadership staying in their lane, but then just stay there. Otherwise, I have to say I am not impressed with the issues they are choosing to get behind.
Ivy, the CDC has been criticized on all sides for communicating ineffectively, but to call what they’ve done “nonsense” is a step beyond. The unvaccinated should be able to see that getting the vaccine is a common good because the data shows quite clearly that the vaccinated rarely get sick enough for hospitalization and almost never die. The CDC has not created the impression that the vaccine does not work by asking people to mask up again because variants. The truth is that the more unvaccinated people the virus has to frolic about in the more variants–and the more virulent variants–we will have to deal with.
The church should advise members to get vaccinated, but the organization is in no position to offer rewards for anything. When case numbers fall and variants disappear because people are vaccinated, that will be the reward, and it will not be dispensed by either the CDC or the Mormon church.
In a nutshell, the delta variant is far worse. People should get the vaccine because the data shows they have a vanishingly small chance of being hospitalized and dying if they do come into contact with the virus.
People should get the vaccine. But it is absolute nonsense to promise people that if they get the vaccine, they will not have to mask up or social distance, but then refuse to honor that promise. Both the CDC and President Biden expressly did so. Those of us who got vaccinated will hold them to that promise, especially since the chance of the vaccinated being hospitalized or dying is minuscule.
JCS is right that church leaders should stay in their lane and not become tools of the government. Members should be vaccinated, and the church leaders should be an example. But the church should not get into the business of mandatory vaccines for attendance.
The church should encourage vaccines, and then fully reopen its buildings and services. The vaccinated are statistically safe—they have a greater chance of being killed in a car crash than they do of catching Covid at church and dying from it. As for the unvaccinated, they accept the risk of their behavior. And if masks really are effective, no one is stopping anyone from volunteering to wear a mask.
Ivy, while the risk to the vaccinated person is low, the risk to others is not. Vaccinated persons still can transmit the Delta variant unfortunately. Because of this, we are all advised to mask up. I do so as part of loving my neighbor (like Elisa said).
We all have our favorite talking heads that support our thinking, but I’ve really resonated lately with Leana Wen (a physician who speaks on CNN).
She believes that the CDC is currently doing the right thing asking us all to mask up again, but cited the wrong reasons for doing so. Her reality (and I agree) is that NO ONE is masking up currently. Yet we know that 50% of our country is not vaccinated. Because we don’t live in a police state and because vaccine passports are taboo currently, the only reasonable thing to do when faced with a more serious, more contagious variant, is to have everyone mask up again. Basically, because those not vaccinated are jerks and are not wearing masks, we all have to put them back on. I don’t love it, but I get it.
With respect to the OP, it doesn’t matter what President Nelson says or does. Even the most ardent TBM will discount him at some point. The most common argument I hear from my fellow Mormons who won’t get vaccinated is that President Nelson is 95 and they 30 or 40 or 50 something so President Nelson’s words don’t apply to them. Indeed we are all cafeteria Mormons after all.
Both the CDC and President Biden expressly did so.
I would not characterize what they said as a promise, but if it was, it needed to be broken. The science now shows (and this is new) that vaccinated people can spread the virus just as effectively as unvaccinated people, even if they don’t get sick themselves. So if you’re around unvaccinated people (and that includes anybody under 12), you need to mask up.
The thing I don’t understand is why those in the church who are the most prone to treat the prophet as infallible are often the most prone to be anti-vaxxers. Very puzzling. I think this all goes to show that the status of the prophet is actually dwindling among the rank-and-file believers. Trump and Q took over as new sorts of prophets for many in the church.
It has been very surprising that the church has taken such a fear-based approach to Covid. We would think that with an emphasis on the Plan of Salvation, the church would emphasize a message of hope. In other words: do not be afraid, continue to live your life in joyful association with others, and if death comes, go to your Eternal Glory in peace.
“Delta” is the weaponized variant.
Folks, we are at war. Trade blocs are combining and competing to out-vax each other. Each newly-vaxxed citizen serves the merchant corporations (Pharma) as a blanket of fresh smallpox.
Citizens are asked to vaccinate because we are threatened by the vaccine itself. The strategy is to create vaccines into oblivion, and quietly move them into food.
Why? Because the filthy food system–its production, processing and distribution (supply chain) is the critical control point for food-borne disease and virus.
SARS, Norvirus, and Covid are all foodborne illness. This means the virus is developed in food and transports in food. Google.
I empathize with, and respect anti-vaxxers because they intuitively understand they are being lied to; they are better patriots. But for safety’s sake, Good Patriots, accept that we are vaxxing ourselves because we are like Rome unleashing this sickness and death upon the rest of the world.
“By thy [pharmakeia] were all nations deceived.” Revelation 18:23
John W, I too am frustrated by the contradiction in the fact that the most gung-ho “follow the prophet” orthodox Church members are also the most likely to be anti-vax. I think it has something to do with a general lack of critical thinking skills that comes from spending their whole lives outsourcing their moral agency to an institution that demands loyalty above everything else, even above the Christian values it teaches. For generations, independent critical thought has been beaten out of us, and it’s a hard thing to re-learn if you have been living a comfortable life for so many years. For many, the image of Pres. Nelson getting a COVID shot was a source of severe cognitive dissonance. Same with the ancient Israelites in the OT who refused to look at the brass serpent on the pole to cure their snakebite illness, and then died. They claim that they are willing to do whatever the prophet asks, but when he actually asks them to do something relatively simple, they resist because “no one has the right to tell me what to do!” They purportedly would take a bullet for Pres. Nelson, but a needle jab is too much to ask.
And that, I think, is the folly of making a lifelong habit of blindly following a prophet or promoting the implicit myth of prophetic infallibility. Your oppositional defiance will kick in at the wrong moment.
I read comments like that from Travis and I realize we really are probably screwed. This is always so disappointing.
My perspective is maybe a little different on this one. It’s definitely counterproductive to shame people over the vaccine. I wish everyone would get vaccinated, but those who don’t are simply more likely to get Covid which will then give them immunity (although it will also continue its spread, including to vulnerable people, some of whom will die as a result). We can choose the easy way (vaccination with whatever unknown risks it may have in the long term) or the hard way (getting Covid with whatever unknown risks it may have in the longterm and an infection mortality rate to boot). The combination of vaccinated and Covid survivors will continue to push us closer to herd immunity, but those who aren’t vaxxed will give the virus enough room to continue to mutate, requiring annnual boosters like with the flu vaccine. I suspect we’re in this Covid crap for the long haul, in and out of mask mandates and lockdowns as it continues to mutate, but again, once enough have had it, we will see its reach diminish. And there will be casualties in the meantime. Right now the real shame is that the kids, who aren’t eligible for the vaccine, are the ones suffering.
As to the other virus, the ideological one in which Church members see Church leaders as a valid substitute for their own moral reasoning, well, that notion can’t die fast enough for me. Luckily, I’ve been vaxxed for that too. It’s called the Holy Ghost and/or having a conscience. I will continue doing the best I can to live a good life in which I attempt to treat others the way I would like to be treated and to make the decisions that I believe align with Jesus’ teachings. That’s the best any of us can do. The difference is that I’m not going to suborn my conscience to the arm of flesh (unless that arm is my own that is).
And to think that I visited Wheat and Tares today as an “escape” from the Covid 19 and “Deadly Covid Variant” 24/07 head warping drumbeat…..Sadly it’s not to be. I suppose I can just go watch some reruns of Seinfeld; or maybe The Road Runner. (And yes, my family and I have all been completed vaccinated – over a year ago. And, I encourage everyone to be vaccinated) But, I’d rather “have a nail driven through my head” than to continue to participate in the endless “crisis of the day” narrative….
Lefthandloafer, over a year ago? How does that work?
I think it’si incumbent on every freedom loving constitutionalist to refuse the vaccine and masking. They should also forego social distancing and handwashing. In order to show their conservative bona sides, they should also spend several weeks in Florida, Louisiana. or Southern Ohio. My body. My choice.
Here we are being told that 80% vacination is the point where restrictions can start to lift. So we are being shown a way out. But US is 50%, and Australia is 16%, India 9% Indonisia 8%. UK is 58%, which is too low to open up but conservatives, being more concerned about business than humans want to open up.
Australia manufactures Astra Zenica only, and was restricted to use by over 60, but now with the delta variant, it is for everyone over 12.
We have purchased pfyzer from America but it is in limited supply. We have few anti vaxers here just not enough vaccine, as is the case with much of the world.
The manufacturers of Astra Zenica voluntarily stated they thought it was immoral to profit from a pandemic so it costs the government $3 a dose. The makers of pfyzer charge $30 a dose, and billionaires are being made.
—I also tend to agree with the first comment from Travis.
—I work in an organization where I’m trying to formulate ongoing COVID policies. One thing that is clear to me is that there are a lot of thoughtful rational people in the organization, and as to vaccination and COVID safety, there are at least two different planets. I don’t observe the distinction as tracking what I would expect as their religious outlook, either. I’ve got no answers on that one.
—I’ve come to understand President Nelson’s approach to most any subject as reflective of his professional background. He was a surgeon. He’s highly confident in his approach. It all has the status of truth, whether it is doctrine, medical recommendations, personal advice, policies, or unstudied ancient languages. This is not suggesting he is wrong on any particular issue. It just seems clear that he believes he knows what he knows. It makes me wonder if some of the quick policy reversals of the last while is the organization learning how to deal with overly confident decision making.
In the Church, the vaccination debate is sounding an awful lot like the stupid arguments about caffeine being part of the Word of Wisdom. A random Apostle, GA, SP or combination of them opined about caffeinated sodas or “coca cola” and their idiosyncratic WOW opinions were followed and argued about by a lot of members. The Church could have stepped in at any point during the 1970s, 1980s or 1990s when this stupid debate was raging (at times, however, with real costs for the poor members whose Bishop or SP believed caffeine was against the WoW) and cleared things up. The Brethren had to know members were divided about caffeine but the Church stayed silent and let the madness continue until it became too embarrassing for them. The Church seems to be following the same pattern with vaccines. They could easily speak up and end the debate-one way or the other-at least within the Church. They have to know there is a roiling debate ongoing with both sides citing the Church for support. Only the vaccine debate is more important than the silly caffeine debate. It took 30 yrs for the Church to come around and acknowledge the basic reality that caffeine is not against the WOW. 20-30 years behind seems to be the Church’s speed, at least before the Internet age. Maybe they will catch up quicker with the vaccine than they did with caffeine. The stakes are much higher with the vaccine.
When should we follow the prophet? When they do prophetic stuff!
I believe we should have prophets as prophets.
If it is just a title you claim, it devalues the word/meaning.
Imagine if, like prophets of old, Pres Nelson had, in Feb 2020, told the Governor of Utah how to defeat the virus. And now Utah instead of 2486 deaths had 5 deaths. This would be noticed. His credibility would soar, people might follow him when he said get vacinated, or most anything where he behaved like a prophet.
5 deaths was achievable, before the virus got out of control. My state with population of 5 million has a total of 7 deaths from the covid. If we had enough vacinations we would be open. We have been for most of the time but are at present locked down because a person brought the virus in, and because it is delta we have had a 7 day lockdown so contact tracers can find all the contacts before it is spread too far. Today all those with the virus are in isolation, so we should open up again, with masks, and social distancing.
Pres. Nelson certainly showed the way by getting vaccinated and publicizing that fact — as illustrated in the OP. I wish they’d be more forthright in verbally encouraging all LDS to get vaccinated, but still it’s clear where they stand. I understand they don’t want to speak too candidly and alienate a portion of the large LDS Trumper anti-vax population, although I wish they would just Do The Right Thing and speak truth to ignorance.
But they have jumped the tracks with the LDS Reopening Policy, which in most places amounts to: Let’s pretend there is no Covid and just open everything up in church on Sunday: no masks, no distancing, plenty of singing. The next big test will be to reopen General Conference — which I suspect will happen for October Conference. I can’t imagine them requiring masks or asking unvaccinated folks to not attend or even skipping the usual verse or two sung by the vast congregation given how local wards are now operating. October General Conference Superspreader Event: All are invited to attend.
Really what the leadership is doing is shifting the cost of Covid from the institution to the individual. The institution no longer wants to limit attendance or its usual program or its revenue (I’m sure tithing went down as in-person church attendance was on hold) or its influence over members (which also was in decline with no in-person attendance). Instead, a lot of people get exposed, some of them get sick or have long-term conditions, and some of them die. The leadership thinks a few thousand extra dead LDS is a worthwhile sacrifice so Priesthood and Primary can resume their Sunday meetings. That seems like the wrong bargain to make.
Dave B is using an argument that is intellectually dishonest. The Church emphasizes teaching good principles, and leaving members with their agency. Dave B proposes that the Church adopt Satan’s plan and take agency away by forcing vaccine decisions on the members.
People should be vaccinated. But they should be rational as well.
Far more people in the US died of heart disease than Covid last year. Cancer killed hundreds of thousands. More people died of drug overdoses than of Covid in San Francisco last year. But those deaths get no attention at all. None.
And yet people like Dave B would let those deaths go unnoticed and still shutdown the church over a virus that poses no statistically significant danger to those who are vaccinated.
As the Delta variant is adversely affecting red states more, a few conservative pundits are encouraging their audience to get vaccinations.
Here’s another tool in that box:
Fewer jabs, fewer jobs: States with lower vaccination, higher COVID infection rates are behind in growth this summer
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2021/08/06/covid-economy-states-fewer-vaccinations-lag-jobs/5503963001/
One of the economists noted that the trend is small. It’s worth following.
Ivy, I get so sick and tired of hearing members spout the nonsense that any thing that slightly inconveniences you or requires acting in the interests of the public good is Satan’s plan. That is false and pernicious doctrine. That kind of thinking would have prevented the eradication of smallpox because that vaccination was mandatory. And if the mandatory elimination of smallpox is Satan’s plan, then sign me up.
I want to know when the idea of agency transformed into a libertarian nightmare.
IF there were a prophet today, one would probably do well to follow him/her…
I am vaccinated and believe that all should be. However, it must be noted that the FDA has still not given final approval for the vaccine. The CDC and Biden promised that if we got the vaccine, we would be done with masks, social, distancing, and shutdowns. Now they have gone back on their promise. There should be no surprise that the church doesn’t want to be a part of that mess.
I don’t think the church will have contributed toward helping people have a deep and meaningful faith if we do the right thing only for hope of a reward.
Masks, social distancing, vaccination, etc., are not punishments. They are difficult, but they are deliberate measures to reduce the devastating effects of a deadly virus. Each person’s choice is not a personal decision with only individual consequences – every choice has a ripple effect.
I see people conflating effect with cause during this pandemic.
It’s the pandemic!
Facts: Those who are vaccinated have only a minuscule chance of catching the virus at church and having more than the mildest of symptoms. The chances of spreading the virus to another vaccinated person in a way that causes a serious impact is even less. If masks really work, then those who are unvaccinated should be able to wear masks and be just fine. If not, then why is anyone wearing masks?
@Wayne, with regard to the heart disease and other deaths, assuming your numbers are correct, those numbers represent the result of accumulated risks and choices over a lifetime. There is no behavior that we can do or choice we can make this year that would suddenly save 600,000 people from dying of heart disease or cancer in the next 6-12 months. If there is, I’d love to hear about it. We did have, and continue to have that kind of choice for Covid. Cancer and heart disease are not an apples to apples comparison to Covid
@Dave B, my money is on another remote conference in October this year.
Ivy, it’s important to distinguish between individual decisions which have only individual consequences — and are more appropriate for libertarian arguments — and individual decisions that have consequences for other people than the decision maker. Like speed limits, for example. People don’t get to choose their own speed limits because that would put others at risk. “People should be free to drive at any speed they want to” is not a defensible argument. Regulating speed limits is not part of Satan’s Plan, it’s part of a reasonably regulated society in which individual freedom is balanced against social responsibility and public safety.
Choosing not to get vaccinated, or defending others who choose to do so, is like defending the right of a reckless driver to drive recklessly. It is terribly unpersuasive. You should rethink your approach to this issue. But you’ve made a good start if, in fact, this is true: “I am vaccinated and believe that all should be.” Good for you.
With regard to this, “ If masks really work, then those who are unvaccinated should be able to wear masks and be just fine”
I’m not a fan of the all or nothing thinking. Masks reduce the spread to some degree. That doesn’t mean they work or don’t work. They are a tool in the tool box. Other tools include social distancing, telework, washing hands, etc etc etc.
When I look at the trends in Utah communities, I think it’s time to pull out some more of those tools even if that isn’t popular. It would be nice if everyone was vaccinated, or if the vaccinations were 100% effective for life, but that just isn’t what we are seeing. There are lot of vulnerable people who can’t get vaccinated, or who may be on immune suppressing drugs reducing vaccine effectiveness.
From the CDC’ website for year 2019:
Number of deaths: 2,854,838
Heart disease: 659,041
Cancer: 599,601
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499
Diabetes: 87,647
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
Influenza and Pneumonia: 49,783
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511
Where are the mandates to prevent these 2.8 million deaths, Dave?
Here are the 2020 stats for the USA from JAMA:
According to provisional data, in 2020, there were notable changes in the number and ranking of deaths compared with 2019.5 COVID-19 was the third leading cause of death in 2020, with an estimated 345 323 deaths, and was largely responsible for the substantial increase in total deaths from 2019 to 2020. Substantial increases from 2019 to 2020 also occurred for several other leading causes. Heart disease deaths increased by 4.8%, the largest increase in heart disease deaths since 2012. Increases in deaths also occurred for unintentional injury (11.1%), Alzheimer disease (9.8%), and diabetes (15.4%). Influenza and pneumonia deaths in 2020 increased by 7.5%, although the number of deaths was lower in 2020 than in 2017 and 2018. From 2019 to 2020, deaths due to chronic lower respiratory disease declined by 3.4% and suicide deaths declined by 5.6%.
Masks provide protection against catching an infection, but they are more effective at preventing an infected person from spreading the virus to others. Masking and social distancing work together to prevent the spread of disease. Vaccines vastly reduce the chance of becoming ill, and they are very likely to make a deadly illness less severe. But vaccines do not give 100% protection to individuals. The greatest power of vaccination comes when enough people get vaccinated that the contagion slows down and eventually stops spreading. That only happens, though, when enough people are vaccinated. Until then, all of us—both vaccinated and unvaccinated—have to keep taking other precautions to control the epidemic.
What all of these facts have in common is that they require people to work together for each other’s benefit. Of course, this pandemic tests our patience. Like Ivy, we feel the temptation to blame people for what we think are broken promises, even though the real enemy here is the virus. It’s the virus that dictates what we can and can’t do. Don’t let your frustration distract you from fighting the real enemy.
Perhaps our greatest test in the pandemic is whether we are willing to break through our anger and discouragement. If we have to keep wearing masks and social distancing even after we had hoped to be rid of those things, then we do it for the sake of our community. This is the sacrifice that our times require us to make. If we are willing to rise up and meet this challenge, it can be a noble thing.
Ivy, you have missed the point. I don’t catch cancer or diabetes or Alzheimer’s from a neighbor or coworker or fellow ward member. If that were the case, there might very well be legal requirements and social norms to control such transmission. Public health measures, including vaccinations, including requiring schoolchildren to be vaccinated as a condition of attendance, including requiring evidence of vaccinations to cross international borders, have been wildly successful at reducing sickness and death from transmissible diseases. Covid fits that category quite nicely. FYI, LDS leaders have referred to public health successes not as part of Satan’s Plan but as part of God’s willingness to bless us here on Planet Earth, either as part of the Restoration or just as a general nice thing to do. I think you have it all backwards. You should consider that you might be rooting for the wrong team on this issue.
Dave has missed the point if he thinks that heart disease, cancer, and suicide have no impact on anyone other than the person who died. It has enormous impact financially and emotionally. The cost to taxpayers from those who smoke, drink, eat too many cheeseburgers or eat too much sugar is absolutely staggering. Where are the mandates to save those lives and the resulting costs?
—Hawk, you nailed it.
—https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid-19-continues-to-be-a-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s-in-june-2021/. Covid 19 and Heart Disease have been much too close as a cause of death
—Jason, I sympathize.
—https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/us/politics/pfizer-vaccine-approval.html on final approvals.
—Sasso, nicely said.
—all. The number of comments was overwhelming.
—David B. You said it before I could.
—Rockwell. You are right. All or nothing thinking is a plague.
—Ivy. You are aware of the way cigarettes are regulated? The requirements for air bags and seat belts? The Food and Drug Administration?
Wow. I’m not sure why this seems so hard to understand. There is no such thing as communicable heart disease, and lumping all deaths together in one bunch is fallacious reasoning.
Ivy: “The Church emphasizes teaching good principles, and leaving members with their agency.” I wish that were so, but things like the SMCC and TR interviews make it clear that this is not so. If a random member tattles on another member to the bishop, odds are much higher than 50% that the one being tattle ON will be viewed with suspicion, not the tattler.
There’s a great OP at BCC that illustrates that basically the Church either really doesn’t care whether members vaccinate (despite RMN’s stance) or they know they don’t have the social capital to push it more. Trump’s lies have won their base. https://bycommonconsent.com/2021/08/04/grading-the-churchs-pandemic-response/
I have been following the comments on the By Common Consent post Angela linked above. They are deleting every single comment that disagrees in the slightest from their viewpoint. I understand they have the right to do this, but why are they so afraid of a differing opinion?
Chadwick: “Her reality (and I agree) is that NO ONE is masking up currently.”
That’s been my reality in Utah as well. And to further emphasize how different parts of America are functionally different countries right now: I was in Los Angeles last week. Nearly everyone was wearing masks—not only indoors but outdoors as well on busier streets. I even saw a few people masked up while walking alone on otherwise empty streets. Did I say different countries? Felt like a different planet.
For the record, I support masks and other public health measures to fight the pandemic. Covid is the enemy. Not our neighbors.
Kirkstall
I live south of LA in Orange County and it’s the same. People wear masks to go on bike rides, jogging, etc. I suppose extra caution is better than the alternative.
In stark contrast to this is my ward. Not a single mask in the building. The Mormons do not care about the pandemic. I expected more of my people and I’m disappointed.
I’m also in Los Angeles. We’ve been masking since the first advisories. There was a brief interlude when the vaccination rate was high and Delta had not yet hit us. We’re masking again.
It’s so easy. I keep masks near the door if we have visitors or deliveries. We have masks in various sizes in both the cars for errands and passengers. I keep one folded up in my purse as backup in case I forget. I make them for my family in appropriate sizes from double layers of comfortable breathable quilting cottons. They’re colorful and fun and also made from prints appropriate to the intended wearers.
This morning I read a story about a baby seizing from a Covid infection who had to be airlifted 150 miles to an available hospital bed. What is wrong with people who won’t voluntarily use an available means to protect others to the extent possible?
I completely agree with Kirkstall that the virus is the enemy but how are we supposed to trust others whose foolish insistence on their personal “freedom” puts others at a demonstrable risk?
Julianna, it take a lot to get deleted from Wheat & Tares, we don’t get as bent out of shape as BBC does.
If anyone wants a good mask pattern check this one out.
Easy to construct. Comfortable to wear. Can be sized to faces. I sew doubled over pipe cleaners into the top seam to mold over the nose. (zigzag over them to keep them in place before you turn the mask outside right) Clips for adjusting the elastic straps can be found online.
https://seekatesew.com/3d-mask-template/
Bishop Bill, you are very right.
Alice. Thank you.
Julianne, the policy there in this case is to delete any anti vax comments that are spreading misinformation.
A tale and then some commentary:
My wife and I were vaccinated in March 2021 when we were eligible. My wife has a serious autoimmune disorder and I’ve got some neurological stuff – we felt like we were fairly high risk.
July 3rd, my son’s fiancé (29) and an anti-vaxer came by. He had been exposed. Over the next several days, he and my son (27) tested positive. My daughter (34) dropped by and was at our house when our son’s positive test result came in. She and her four under-age-14-children, her boyfriend, his parents and daughter got it. The grandchildren’s father, stepmom, and three step-siblings all got it. All within 5 days.
My wife had to go to the ER – tested positive in spite of the vaccine – but was able to return home on oxygen which she still must use it at night. My 17-year-old daughter and I did not test positive but had some sort of flu that hit us for about 10 days.
13 people were knocked down by one guy who did not believe in vaccination and wearing a mask. No one died. That’s really good. But eight adults lost the ability to work for at least two weeks. Everyone is still not back to normal after over a month. My wife will be a long-hauler from COVID lung. It was expensive and it sucked.
My kids are not anti-vaxers (except my oldest who got COVOID before vaccines were available early in the pandemic). Two of them just didn’t get around to it. My other daughter and her four children got it from her husband (at a martial arts studio where he definitely was not social distancing) before she was eligible for the vaccine.
My wife and I took it seriously. I was spared COVID by the immunization and she got enough protection from her vaccine that she did not suffer much worse in her immunocompromised state.
The fathers of two families that I have known for almost 40 years died of COVID, each given to them by one of their anti-vaxer daughters.
Why in the hot-fiery-place can people not see how simple precautions can prevent so much suffering? Why do some of the religious think that it’s God’s job to intervene when they could just get a free vaccine and wear a mask? Members believe that grace kicks in after all they can do – doesn’t that apply to basic health? Why do the political think something so simple (and not unprecedented) is a conspiracy to unjustly dominate them?
To the question of the OP – when should we follow the prophet – how about when you study it out in your mind, free your thinking of unhelpful biases, make a rational decision, and see how you feel about it. Try it out and adjust as necessary. Works just as well for vaccinations as it does for the veracity of the Book of Abraham.
The church president strongly encouraged members to take the vaccine last winter when he took it. At the time, those who were eligible were the elderly and others with other high-risk conditions. The preferred vaccines in the US were over 80% effective in preventing Covid infections and 95% effective in preventing severe cases. At that time, this was a game changer in risk reduction for many people.
There has been a substantial change in the risk reduction since then. Perhaps the strong urging to take the vaccine has not been continued because of the changing nature of the conditions and virus. At this time, over 90% of the US population in high-risk categories due to age or other preexisting health conditions have been vaccinated. Many areas of the country are seeing a major increase in Covid infections. After reviewing the most recent data from my state, here are some big changes in the current risk profile:
The total number of breakthrough cases (Covid infections of vaccinated people) is surging in my state. Breakthrough cases are approaching 20% of total cases across the state. Around 2/3 of new cases in the state are of the delta variant. The current effectiveness of the vaccines in preventing cases is only 60%. The CDC is now reporting that vaccination is only 75% effective in preventing severe cases. The risk of severe cases among vaccinated individuals has gone up by 5 times since the winter. The prevailing hypothesis is that the Covid delta variant is the main contributor to both the increase in current cases and the decreased effectiveness of the vaccines. If these assumptions are correct, then the current effectiveness of the vaccine against the delta variant is under 50% for preventing infection. This data comes from tens of thousands of cases reported over the past few weeks in my state.
At this point most individuals in the church who have not been vaccinated are young and generally healthy. The vaccines are still effective in reducing severe cases, but they are not nearly so effective in preventing the spread of minor cases. It is no longer as clear cut a case that society as a whole or individuals within it benefit from one person getting the vaccine. The church’s stance on vaccination is likely taking these changes into account.
Our local stake presidency sent a letter out to all wards today. They emphasized that video streaming of church meetings and taking the sacrament at home would be continued, even though they had stopped sending the streaming link to every member. Also, that provision for distancing at in person sacrament meeting would also be provided (if attendance continues to rise, some schedule changes might be needed). None of these statements were changes in policy, but just reminders that we are not back to business as usual, even though we are having meetings in person for 2 hours. The biggest point of the letter was that we should follow prophetic counsel and prayerfully consider measures that will keep ourselves, our families and our community healthy and safe. We should treat each other as brothers and sisters and not mock or shame anyone who may choose differently when trying to protect themselves and others.
el oso: “The total number of breakthrough cases (Covid infections of vaccinated people) is surging in my state. Breakthrough cases are approaching 20% of total cases across the state. Around 2/3 of new cases in the state are of the delta variant. The current effectiveness of the vaccines in preventing cases is only 60%. The CDC is now reporting that vaccination is only 75% effective in preventing severe cases.”
Can you please provide a source for this? A recent CNN article noted that breakthrough cases would total tens of thousands of cases in the over 160 million Americans that are fully vaccinated. “For context, as of July 12, out of 159 million fully vaccinated people, the CDC documented 5,492 cases of fully vaccinated people who were hospitalized or died from COVID-19, and 75% of them were over age 65. It’s not clear how many of these breakthrough infections were caused by the delta variant, but that’s now by far the dominant variant in circulation.” I know this is only severe cases, not total cases, but still not 20%. I ask not to question you, but to read up and learn more.
I guess one last thing I’ll say is that I did NOT get vaccinated because the Prophet did. I had already made that choice. But it didn’t hurt my position.
Chadwick,
The source for my local information is the state covid tracking site and a good summary in this article linked here:
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/covid-19-15-000-cases-active-with-954-hospitalized-in-state-breakthrough-cases-have-killed/article_62f259d8-f527-11eb-a81f-9b302bff3de3.html
The CDC numbers were reported in several national news outlets. Since I posted, I have seen that the CDC has updated the estimate of breakthrough cases for the delta variant. They now say that the vaccine is 50-60% effective in preventing breakthrough cases of the delta variant. This is close to what I was estimating from the state data that was reported.
The overall issue in the church is that we no longer are listening to God but our leaders.
Yesterday I had a meeting with my Bishop about my “apostasy” and I asked him point blank if he would say something from the pulpit if he knew it was of God but against the LDS church.
He said he didn’t know.
This is the issue. We are a church that is following God not a church that follows the church.
Angela C, misinformation is such a loaded concept.
We are literally being lied to by the government, by businesses, by the media, and by the scientific and medical communities.
Then someone with a different idea is spreading “misinformation” by wanting to discuss it further.
Who determines what is truth and what is misinformation?
What if misinformation is actually truth and truth is actually misinformation?
Using the power of technology to silence your opposition is not going to end well for anyone.
Patrick: “Who determines what is truth and what is misinformation?” Agreed. I was just explaining what their moderation policy was in this instance, neither endorsing nor criticizing it. In the case of vaccine misinformation, there have been 12 sources identified by Facebook and the CDC as waging a deliberate campaign of misinformation against Covid vaccines based on non-scientific theories or beliefs, untested or disproven by the scientific community. Basically, I don’t know who made the mod decisions at BCC, but at other social media sites, there are experts evaluating what is information (based on scientific theory) and what is misinformation (not tested by science). I’m not a scientist, but I am less leery of the scientific community than I am of conspiratorial thinkers. Having said that, you’re right that sometimes the scientific community is wrong and sometimes the conspiracists are right. But I’m still not going to bank on it.
Certainly true. However many highly credible doctors are disagreeing with the narrative and they are being silenced.
The more I learn about the whole thing the more repulsive it becomes.
President Benson said the Book of Mormon is a conspiracy fact. There are forces that want to deceive and manipulate us.
A medical doctor is not necessarily a scientist. medicine relies on science but it’s a rare doctor who reads the original research which are. abstracted in medical journals. As for surgeons, like Benson, they’re more like mechanics: they might be able to patch your engine but they can’t build a new one that won’t recreate the problems
that wore it out in the first place.
Patrick 1.57. Is your last sentence confused.
There is one source of information you trust, it would be interesting to know who that is? The one who tells you not to trust others.
Who determines what is misinformation? On one level that has to be the individual, you are responsible to evaluate how trustworthy the source of your information is. Have they been right in the past? Did they say trump won the election? Is he in the white house, etc etc. On the level of society there are levels of government, and there are norms. You are concerned that you view is not given equal weight, in fact dismissed as lies. And that every time vacines are discussed your view is not rehashed. Because it has been established by society that your source is lying, their so called facts have been debunked.
So you are entitled to believe what you want, but that does not make it true, or mean other people have to listen to the lies you believe.
I may be wrong but I suspect your trusted source is of the right. It may interest you to know that the right of politics in other countries are for vacination, believe in the virus, are acting to fight climate change, and are not trying to undermine society or democracy, and that the right in America has gone rogue under trump.
I suspect you still trust your supermarket, your fast food supplier, your fuel supplier, the airline you fly with, the supplier of the car you drive, the people who put the signs on the highway, the bank you have your money in, in fact everyone you actually deal with. Now if you think about it these thing are all your dealings with the bodies you have been told not to trust, and they have been trustworthy.
The big problem with this concept that misinformation may be coming from the CDC, and all the government bodies that set standards, and those who abide by those standards. That viruses, vacinations, etc, climate change, are no more trustworthy than fox news, or trumps party, are that what is being undermined is society, is America. If you get to a point where more than 25% or some tipping number, no longer believe in the system it will collapse. If you are trying to fight the virus you need at least 80% vacination rate, or it will continue to spread and possibly mutate to a more deadly version. If more than 20% refuse to be vacinated obviously you are stuck until they die off. So 25% can undermine the system. So how many Patricks are there?
The UN came out with an update on climate change last night. That is assuming that the words leaders will collectively work to save the planet. I would bet that the people Patrick believes, do not believe in climate change, in spite of the fires, floods, and unprecidented weather around the world. If 630,000 deaths can not convince them the virus is real, and that very few vacinated people are dying even with the more virolent delta strain, that the vaccines work, they are not people who deal in facts.
The world is pleased that you now have a president who will join in to address climate change, lets hope he is not undermined too badly, or America collapses.
My understanding of the report is that we have already passed the point of return, that what we collectively do now determines how bad the new normal is.
You are personally attacking me and saying I am a delusion right-winger?
Very rich.
Thinking there is even a left or right is part of the problem. Both parties want the same thing which is abuse of power and control. Clearly there is a problem when “public servants” exit politics as multi millionaires however you and me seem to have a much harder time making money.
Do you honestly believe any meaningful election in the last 50 years has been fair? Why would the controlling powers leave their future to the “unwashed masses”. It is laughable to even entertain the thought.
Trump is just as much a part of the problem as Obama was. If he truly thought the election was stolen from him then he would have done far more than call people to the capitol, gave them a pointless speech, and then told them to go home. He would have literally stormed the capitol building. That is why they are treating the peaceful 1/6 protestors as criminals and why they are treating the BLM criminals as saints.
Do you seriously believe the medical industry is interested in curing you of anything? We are now paying more for medical care than we ever have in history and it is not helping us to be healthier. Doctors are our false gods. You literally can’t disagree with the establishment on the big tech platforms otherwise you will get silenced. This is open and honest scientific dialog? Oh right. The science is settled because the pharmaceutical companies are perpetually making billions in profits from their prophets now. Saying your going to kill your grandma or your neighbors grandma is just plain silly when the survival rate is 99%. China has got to be laughing at us. Do you remember how they were force testing all foreigners with anal swabs? Bend over to take your pointless PCR test that will find anything.
Climate change is also a contrived fallacy. Certainly climates change and certainly we are part of the problem. However do you really think we can do anything short of a nuclear winter that could really alter the planet. We were told in the 1990’s that a global ice age was upon us and we only had a few years left. Then we were told that global warning was going to flood the world unless we gave Al Gore billions of dollars. Then we were told that all businesses need to implement extremely pointless changes to destroy the American economy so we can watch China produce almost all of the world pollution. Climate change is not about saving the climate it is about making someone a lot of money. The ruling class in the world are very effective at making you think you are doing good while they are maniacally laughing.
Believe what you will however I wish there were more “Patricks” in the world. We would then stop believing all the lies of the left and right and then actually fix the problems.
Patrick, apparently all the “Patricks” in the world would only fix the problems they choose to acknowledge, as every other problem simply doesn’t exist. Lots of zero-sum thinking in your posts, friend.
Also, Patrick, your posts clearly paint you as conservative biased, despite your protestations. I mean, the “1/6 protesters” and the “BLM criminals” is, in your own words, “rich.” As if there wasn’t any middle ground; as if only you see the correct way through nuance (by denying it); as if everyone is morally deficient in total without the ability to also have positive motives; as if past mistakes negate any future information. It smacks of arrogance, pride, and fragility to the upmost. Beware the tendency to subscribe to the “above it all” ideology that libertarianism often includes that so coddles some egos into its own form of manipulation.
Not everyone, friend, (including yourself, I presume) is as simple-minded as you painting both them and yourself.
I thought this was the place to logically discuss real issues. Instead it has devolved into an attack on conservative principles. The whole place screams of being a liberal echo chamber which I was hoping it wasn’t.
The whole system is the problem. The LDS church is reflective of the broken system and cultural.
BLM is literally burning buildings and taking over cities. 1/6 protestors were almost exclusively peaceful and went into a building that the guards let them. There were so many lies about the 1/6 protestors while the media literally standing in front of a burning building saying the BLM protests are peaceful. Lunacy at its finest.
You also never acknowledged any of my valid points. However honestly as quick as I came I am just as quickly leaving.
This blog is really interesting and I hope the LDS can become God’s people once again.
Patrick, my comment isn’t meant as an attack on conservative principles, it’s meant to suggest that perhaps you’re comments aren’t as ‘unbiased’ or ‘unbroken’ you might think they are. Your assumptions about people here reveal the same concern that you claim only belong to the other side. That’s not really a way to have a goodwill conversation. My comments are meant in the hopes that, after seeing your own comments how others see them, the conversation might indeed be more fruitful. That we can then get somewhere. I have a soft spot for people willing to question the status quo, my comments are not meant as an attack on you. It’s a hope that you continue with the questioning outlook that led you to where you are and not let your new outlook become it’s own damning dogma that so many people make of their politics. Sorry that you took it so hard.
Alice, someone over at LDS Freedom Forum took issue with your post: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1163450#p1163450
Dylan: I am a front-line Healthcare Worker. So, my family and I were first in the queue to be vaccinated. Frankly, I’m proud that we took the leap and got the vaccine. My wife received the Pfizer vaccine and I received the Moderna; two doses each.
Dear Patrick, when you make a valid point, I will discuss it.
Patrick: “BLM is literally burning buildings and taking over cities.” You wrote this on 8/10/2021. Name one building that has been burnt or one city that has been taken over in the last month. The global George Floyd protests against police brutality have died down, even though police brutality remains a serious problem with far more casualties among people of color.
” 1/6 protestors were almost exclusively peaceful and went into a building that the guards let them.” So, over 80% of the insurrectionists were NOT peaceful, and 16% of the people with them were not committing violence. Sure. Got it. I think we all recognize that those who participated in the insurrection had different levels of complicity and violence, including some insurrectionists who were police or military. The testimony of the Capitol Police is really something that can’t be unheard, though, and I hope you’ve listened to their testimony. There was real danger to their lives and the lives of congress persons. I assume you would also find it appalling that a black officer was called the “N” word and shouted at with slurs and anger beause he voted for Biden. I watched Ashli Babbit’s fatal wound as they broke the glass in the door. She was not behaving peacefully in those moments.
As you said, over 80% of them were violent, and rather than protesting police brutality, they were protesting election results, when several of them later admitted they didn’t even vote. None of them at the riot were willing to admit that their preferred candidate lost (because he was also unwilling to admit it). That doesn’t make this a “liberal echo chamber.” This partisan extremism is detrimental to both the Church and the country.
Patrick, You claim to want to logically discuss real issues. You do not discuss. I asked about your sources, no response just another statement. That is not discussion.
These conservative principles you claim are being attacked? All you said were a list of conspiracy theories based on paranoia and lies. If these are conservative principles, the republican party has no principles. Can America be a democracy if only one party believes in free and fair elections?
Second what Angela said.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/health-care-workers-compassion-fatigue-vaccine-refusers/619716/
We have been told. Apostle Renlund said he was speaking not as a doctor but as an apostle when he said we need to be vaccinated. Pres. Nelson asked do we know how to determine Truth and get an answer to a prayer because the time will come when we won’t be able to continue on if we don’t. Yes, people are now dying because their misinformation led them to be unvaccinated.
Sorry. I said I wasn’t coming back and I have to reply. The sheer level of ignorance here is astounding.
To sum up the conversation, conservatives lie about everything and liberals are enlightened thought leaders.
Asking for a verifiable act of BLM violence in the last month is a strawman argument since BLM has been around for almost 10 years now. No?
George Floyd has nothing to do with BLM since BLM was around long before. No?
80% and 16% are numbers you just pulled out of your what? No?
The officer said the “N” word was shouted and he was assaulted however there is extensive video evidence of him not even interacting with people at all. The escorting officer even testified he never heard the word. No?
Ashli Babbit was not violent, had no weapons and was in a building she helped pay for. She was literally right next to a tactical officer who didn’t seem to have any issues with her. No?
80% of them were violent. I never said that. No?
BLM and 1/6 protesters are orders of magnitude different. No?
Politicians are afraid when the people have power and can’t be controlled. No?
Committing election fraud and not voting are different. No?
My comment which triggered the enlightened ones was about doctors disagreeing with the herd mentality, which is correct. No?
There are significant amounts of studies saying masks don’t work. No?
The creator of the PCR test has said using it for covid detection is just plain wrong. No?
The creator of the mRNA technology said the vaccinated are creating the variants and we should have only vaccinate the most vulnerable. No?
Spike proteins through the mRNA vaccine are causing blood clots in healthy people and are concentrating in the ovaries. No?
Saying ‘wearing a mask is how we love others’ is dumb in a religious setting. No?
The President of the LDS church and Apostles can be wrong. No?
People in a religious setting can be so sure of an answer they don’t bother asking God. No?
Getting an unproven vaccine, which Dr’s cautioned against, for a sickness with a 99.9% survivability is dumb. No?
Israel which is 80% (fully) vaccinated has mask mandates however still has hospitalization surge. No?
Something is not adding up. No?
Some people may not be able to find information as easily as others so I will list it here.
Princeton University studied BLM between May 24 and Aug 22 2020 to show they were peaceful.
However they found 570 violent demonstrations across 220 locations.
Reporter says “Fiery but mostly peaceful” while buildings and cars are burning in the background.
BLM is estimated to have caused over $1 Billion USD.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2020/09/08/new-study-shows-majority-of-blm-protests-turned-violent-n2575801
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/blm-riots-caused-over-241-billion-of-damage-yet-media-says-theyre-mostly-peaceful/ar-BB198RTB
We have studied masks for many years and found that they just simply don’t work.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/do-masks-actually-work-the-best-studies-suggest-they-dont/ar-AANfurl?ocid=uxbndlbing
This is not an echo chamber however I am literally the only one saying anything remotely different.
I then am attacked because I am supposedly a conservative.
I think people are afraid of open and honest discussions because it challenges their views.
I like the concept of the blog. I really do.
We should be free to ask questions like the blog does in a religious setting.
It is sad that bringing up valid questions in church will get you labelled an ‘apostate’.
To quote from a friend’s recent essay:
“This week in “you can’t always get what you want, religion version”: the LDS Church issues a statement calling for vaccination and mask use, to the chagrin of anti-vaxxers.
And a day or so ago, a prominent church leader declared “At a time when diversity is earnestly sought and greatly praised, the restored Church opposes the popular definition of diversity in its organization and composition.”
Those two statements are not in logical opposition to each other, but they are likely oppositional in terms of the groups who will respond favorably to one statement or the other (some, a minority I would argue, will love both statements).
I recognize that the demographics of anti-vaccine groups are a bit more complex, but there it is.
My point is that rushing to use one church statement or another as a religious bludgeon against another churchgoing member is a tactic that will sooner or later backfire against you.
There’s always something the church advocates that you’re not going to like.
When you start gleefully pointing out that your cultural enemies aren’t following the prophet, get your karma diapers on because it’s going to come back around.”
Just figured out where “the great is coming from:
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-says-we-know-who-he-is-officer-killed-babbitt-2021-8
You can watch the video and tell me how peaceful this looks:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2021/01/08/ashli-babbitt-shooting-video-capitol/
Patrick, so you have one link to an MSN article (which is really a mask, pun included) for a City Journal article by someone not even remotely connected to the field of virology as your evidence against masks that ignores many studies of their effectiveness, instating focusing the hairdresser situation? Sound reliable. Putting looks of rhetorical questions with as yes/no black/white answer? Yes, that will, of course get throwback. Not responding to anyone else’s refutations of your claims? Doesn’t particularly show an interest in engagement. I don’t think it’s as much ” anti-conservative” pushback that you’re getting, but something else. Rigor, perhaps. Unless, as has been pointed out, what you are doing is emblematic of conservative dialogue. Then yes, it’s anti-conservative pushback. But, honestly, we’ve seen plenty of conservatives here, including very outspoken libertarians who don’t get the pushback you are getting. There is a reason why.
Are Mormon anti-vaxxers capable of chagrin? I’ll believe it when I see it.
Patrick: Your rhetorical style is irritating and confusing. No? I am honestly not sure what you are getting at with a bunch of it and/or that was stuff I wasn’t involved in discussing before, so I’ll stick with the BLM and 1/6 stuff.
– To the 80% / 16% point, YOU said 1/6 of the insurrectionists were non-violent. The flip side of your statement is that 5/6 were violent. I was just restating your numbers. I have no idea what percent of the insurrectionists were violent, but their aim was to prevent Congress from doing its job. We’ll let the courts figure that one out. Those pleading non-violence and getting caught up in the moment seem to be getting reduced sentences.
– Ashli Babbit was non-violent? Puh-lease. She was standing ten feet away from a door that her fellow rioters broke the glass of, and she was shouting along with them. She didn’t say “Hey, we shouldn’t be doing property damage, guys!” When black people who are clearly being killed more frequently by the police break glass, white people lose their crap over property damage. Which is worse? Whining because your candidate lost a free and fair election or whining because people who look like you are literally being murdered all the time by cops and nobody cares?
– If you’re talking about BLM pre-George Floyd, you’re talking about something quite different indeed. BLM wasn’t doing much (recently anyway) until George Floyd was murdered, and then Trump and the police waged open war on them. The GOP lauded Kyle Rittenhouse for opening fire on protestors. George Floyd is what animated the movement in recent memory and got it back in the news and spread this to a global protest. If you’re claiming that BLM protestors overtook cities (which was hyperbole after George Floyd) BEFORE George Floyd, I would like to see some receipts.
– “BLM and 1/6 protesters are orders of magnitude different.” The differences are of *kind* more than magnitude. The January insurrection was just that, an insurrection. Their cause was not just, whether they knew it or not. But yes, their protest was large, and yes, property damage happened in both cases. The police seem to be (on the whole) more OK with white supremacy than they are with protecting black people. Gee, what a surprise.
This is another strawman attack. You are not attacking the studies I linked however are now attacking the link I linked.
Seriously? The source data comes from the CDC itself.
By your logic no one can reference anything on this site unless it is entirely original research posted no where else.
Then you attack the journalist who wrote the article. Seriously?
I have to have an advanced degree to link to others research?
I say unless you have an advanced degree in every liberal cause then you are not qualified to speak.
Of the RCTs the link references 3 show no statistically significant link and the other 11 show masks are either useless or counterproductive.
This is before covid made masks politically charged.
I see. Ashli is guilty because people near her are guilty. Makes sense.
I think anyone who believes elections can’t or won’t be stolen is not capable of critical thought.
If someone had the ability to steal an election then seriously why wouldn’t they?
Lastly 1/6 means Jan 6. Sorry for the confusion. I saw it almost everywhere as 1/6.
If we want to talk about percentages then 1/6 protesters are honestly more like 99% or 99.9% peaceful.
Again you ignored my reference of 570 violent protests and $1 billion damage.
Compare the videos and tell me which is more violent.
Yours: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2021/01/08/ashli-babbitt-shooting-video-capitol/
BLM: https://youtu.be/eW63RUzYwVE
Again I made perfectly valid points which you are dodging and then you blame me for dodging.
Honestly I have seen that anything a liberal accuses someone of they themselves are guiltily of.
Makes me think when we found out that the Hillary Clinton campaign paid for the dossier which accused Trump of peeing on prostitutes. No?
Patrick: the question isn’t whether it’s *possible* to steal an election, The question is whether is *plausible* that this one was. 62 failed lawsuits say no. That’s a lot of evidence that it was not.
Thanks for the clarification on what you meant by 1/6. I definitely don’t agree that on the whole the insurrection was non-violent. Many BLM protests also involved violence and property damage. My kids marched in BLM protests here, and the only violence they saw was police intimidation. By any rational standards the protests they were in did not involve any violence at all. It was a group of people walking from a park to a police headquarters in one, and in the other, walking from a school to a park. That was it.
“I have seen that anything a liberal accuses someone of they themselves are guiltily of” Projection is a psychological phenomenon not restricted to political party. All humans are prone to this error.
Patrick, honestly, what you think is happening is not what is happening. I’ve only engaged our mask stuff here because it’s all I have time for, especially because, seeing how bad it is, I don’t feel a need to proceed any further.
First, you don’t link to an actual study on the effectiveness of masks, you link to commentary that is obviously biased and not current. Second, yes, the venue of the commentary and the person writing it absolutely matters. Third, current studies of the effectiveness of masks reveals the opposite of what you are purporting here. Do you really need links for this? Do a search. (I get that you might argue that it’s all a conspiracy or something, but that doesn’t change the science.) Finally, I’m not making a strawman attack. I’m not even sure you know what one is. Perhaps you mean an ad hominem?
Look, I can believe you think you are making valid points, but that doesn’t make them so.
And did you really write “I have seen that anything a liberal accuses someone of they themselves are guilty of?” No qualifications on that? Do you really mean every liberal? Every time? Willing to apply that same claim to all conversations? I’m not. That’d be lazy and factually wrong.
Honestly, again, if you were to apply a little more rigor here, you’d get better responses. As it is, you seem to much rather huff and pout, call foul, dig your heels in, and make weird, inaccurate blanket statements that don’t reveal logic, but regurgitation of talking heads . Perhaps that’s all you’ve been trained/modeled to do. I can firmly get behind blaming our educational system for that.
Again you ignore my data because you don’t like it.
You may be unable to follow links so I posted it here: https://www.qeios.com/read/1SC5L4
However I would recommend you learn how to follow links because there are a lot more studies linked in the article.
Implying I am not smart enough to know the difference between logical fallacies is actually an ad hominem attack.
Saying my link is not valid because it is not “official” is a straw man attack.
Police brutality is real and I have seen it first hand. I was maced from about 4 inches away defending an unarmed woman that police grabbed by the throat.
My last statement was anecdotal and obviously not true. Mostly an attempt at humor.
However I do wonder about Hillary and prostitutes.
Did you know that her and Bill were frequent flyers on the Epstein Lolita Express?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7748467/Bill-Hillary-Clinton-frequent-guests-Jeffrey-Epsteins-New-Mexico-ranch.html
Patrick:
https://www.kxan.com/news/coronavirus/do-face-masks-work-here-are-49-scientific-studies-that-explain-why-they-do/ (go follow all those peer reviewed studies if you’d like. Great overall source.
Some other tops hits showing effectiveness of masks.
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6549/1439
I don’t ignore your data because I don’t ‘like it.’ I ignore it because it’s not current. Or consensus.
Note the Supreme Court has kind of weighed in. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-rejects-challenge-indiana-university-s-vaccination-requirement-n1276714?fbclid=IwAR0QUtAnia0PvEDTs-taw8uXIFcLtY8hBqXLp2T6XKnXGYKeg1AqHaojutg
Patrick. I believe a lot of harsh things about the Clintons. I’m just leery of National Enquirer level sources which the Daily Mail is.
Supreme Court rejecting suit means what?
The LDS church cannot be God’s one and only church when the ward houses in its epicenter are filled with people like Patrick.
Finally realizing this after January 6 is what wrecked my shelf.
foxinhikingshorts– I’m so sorry.
You mean people who question the narrative?
I asked legitimate questions and raised valid points and now your response is to literally denigrate me.
What a joke.
This whole endeavor has been an exercise in stupidity.
Thank you for the amusement.
Patrick , of those studies which say masks “don’t work” please pr0vide a random sample of sources, including author, publisher, and funder, and perform independent probability statistics on the reported results. No? Additionally, please compile a literature review and provide abstracts of each article. Did you critique each article for logical fallacies, cognitive distortions, inaccuracies, and follow the trail of references and an analise them in the same way? No?
Then I will continue to regard you as a guy with a laptop living in your parent’s basement.
I see. The burden of proof is significantly higher on me than you.. Even though I was the first to actually reference scientific studies.
You are very sure of your position so it would best if you do that exhaustive analysis first. We can continue the discussion then.
Attacking someone that disagrees with you makes you look mentally weak. No?
Patrick, I posted a link to 49 studies that show masks work. Again, the current consensus across relevant disciplines is that they work. In the real world (as opposed to the world of the conspiracy theorist, where the inverse it true), the burden of proof against any prevailing theory is augmented with each new study that supports the prevailing theory. In this case, that would, indeed, fall upon those arguing against the effectiveness of masks. Being first to post a link does not negate this. Perhaps you simply missed my post, but the evidence is there. Also, you keep claiming that you raised valid points even though they have been addressed and corrected. We aren’t dismissing you or ignoring you. We’re demanding rigor. There may be some truth valid points contained in an overall claim of yours, but that does not make your overall claims true.
The scientific consensus almost universally pre covid was masks were for medical personnel to stop the transmission of large particles. At the start of covid medical personnel almost universally said don’t wear masks they are ineffective.
Of course they changed the narrative because they were “short on masks”. However this is not plausible at all. Fear porn is far more probable.
Post covid now masks are effective and anything contrary is heretical. If they were so effective then why is covid still a problem in countries with almost universal compliance? Oh right. That one guy who doesn’t comply made the numbers shoot up not the ineffective masks.
Approximately a 65x reduction in flu last year with an increase in a new unknown flu like sickness that is most certainly not flu is strange, no?
Patrick, with Covid, the spread of COVID-19 occurs via airborne particles and droplets, not the individual virus. Masks work well against particles and droplets of respiratory fluids that contain the SARS CoV-2 virus. I’m not understanding the point you are trying to make about masks. You just said that masks are only good against “to stop the transmission of large particles” which is exactly what they are being used for in this situation.
Forgive me if I’m not understanding the point you are trying to make.
No.
Patrick: Having lived in Asia, I don’t understand why masks for people who are experiencing illness or in any time of breakout are not the social norm here. Oh, right. ‘Murica and freedumb. I keep forgetting where our real priorities lie, and it’s not for the health of the community, hence our terrible healthcare system in which you must be employed to get care, and you must pay whatever the for-profit insurance companies dictate, and even still they will weasel their way out of paying any which way they can.
The CDC’s tactic to reserve masks for healthcare professionals by claiming they were ineffective was criminally stupid.
Freedumb is actually funny. 😀
I really don’t care about masks however mandating them for healthy people is frankly nonsensical.
Sick until proven otherwise?
I fully agree about the terrible healthcare system. I think a large part of the issue is the insane profits they are making especially during a global sickness.
Another part of the issue is the whole idea that healthcare should be so expensive in the first place.
In the past we didn’t have to refinance the house just to pay for medical bills however now we do.
I would love to see a world where we could go to the hospital for free and receive good preventative healthcare.