One of the posts just a few days ago brought me back to a topic I had been thinking about writing on. That post was from Morgan2205 titled, “Is there anything you can do for me?” I found it very disheartening to hear the lack of being able to get some assistance in a time of need. I do hear MANY people that have walked away from the church say that they do miss the community aspect of church. I certainly think that being able to get (and give) help is a big part of what we lump into “community” within the church. I had already started thinking about the state of men and their relationships when Steve Evans wrote “Male Friendships” over at By Common Consent. I can recall my wife meeting someone at church and were immediately best friends and have been so for many decades now. I just have never had that happen. It always seems to me that such relationships take intentionality and time. It just seems to me that many women can make a connection quicker than those of us with more testosterone.
But back a few years I was already thinking about this and noticing that myself and other men around me didn’t seem have all that many close relationships. I was in charge of teaching in our High Priest group. I really resonated with a blog I saw titled, “WHY IS WEEKLY PRIESTHOOD MEETING THE WORST HOUR OF YOUR WEEK?” I got a bit upset and decided to bring this actual blog into the meeting and say that I felt this way – and I was one of the main instructors. I was ready to stir the pot a bit. We had a rather open and honest discussion on the topic. One of the improvements we agreed to try was to cut the lesson a bit short occasionally and have each member take a few minutes and really introduce themselves. It was really interesting to have these introductions and we all learned quite a bit about each other. I think it did help bond us together a bit better. It was a bit funny that almost everyone started out by saying, “I don’t think I can talk about myself for 10 minutes” and they almost without exception took the entire meeting time and we dispensed with the lesson. It was really interesting to find out so much about many of these guys that I had hung around for hundreds of hours, but never knew that much about them.
Just a few months ago I had listened to one of my go-to favorite podcasts, “The Hidden Brain”, and kept the episode titled, “Lonely American Man” as I was agreeing with much of what they said about men having a hard time connecting with others. When I listened to it again, I was really struck with one part. They discussed what is one of the longest surveys ever conducted. It was started as a survey called, “The Grant Study” of Harvard men by George Vallant. It has been ongoing now for approaching 8 decades.
Vaillant’s (the surveys conductor) main conclusion is that “warmth of relationships throughout life has the greatest positive impact on ‘life satisfaction'”. Put differently, Vaillant says the study shows: “Happiness is love. Full stop.”
In the podcast at about the 7 minute mark they said one of the ways they determined if someone had a good close friend was to ask the question, “Who would you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or afraid?” I had to stop the podcast when I heard that and I thought immediately of Morgan2205’s situation. I felt bad for him. Then I thought about myself. Outside my wife I only have a very small number of people I feel I could call to drive me to the hospital in the middle of the night. Actually very small.
The podcast went on to mention a few other studies that emphasize the need for close relationships. The first was one that showed those that are happiest in retirement are those that replace work colleagues with friends. Then it goes on to mention a study of commuters and how they enjoyed their commute more when they reached out and interacted with other commuters.
I have to admit that I have gone for decades not really seeing or admitting to myself how important male relationships are. But as I study it, I am seeing it all around and I feel it is really true. I am really enjoying the podcast series from Richard Oslter called “Listen, Learn, & Love.” A few weeks ago there was an episode where the parents of a son that died from suicide were on and talked about what they had learned. The entire episode is worth a listen (as are most every single episode), but the mother started talking at about the 57 minute mark on relationships and the need for connection as it relates to suicide prevention.
I read a lot of Brene Brown during that time. She had just written her first book and stated reading more and more of what she said. A lot of what she said made a lot of sense to me because she talked about how important connection is. This is not about something that some people need more than others. This is something that as human beings we are hardwired for connection and how important that is.
I since read a book that I think is outstanding. It talks about the same thing. It is called, “Why people die by Suicide” published by Harvard and written by one of the top experts in the nation. He talks about the same thing. The two biggest things that bring people to suicide ideation and wanting to die by suicide are not feeling valued or feeling they are a burden and not feeling like they belong. So this is super important. […] The Centers for Disease Control came to Utah recently to try and figure out why we have had this huge rise in youth suicides and connection was also one of the biggest things they also said.
Brene Brown said: “Connection is why we’re here; it is what gives purpose and meaning to our lives. Belonging is in our DNA. It is an irreducible need just like love. We are biologically, cognitively, physically, and spiritually wired to love and be loved and to belong. When those needs are not meet, those needs are not meet we don’t function as we were meant to. We break, we fall apart, we numb, we ache, we hurt others, we get sick. We are profoundly social creatures. At the root of our desire is to belong, to be accepted, to connect with others, to be loved. A sense of social connection is one of the fundamental human needs.
My kids are all out of the house, but I know when I look at them I feel they spend a bit too much time with their face in their phones even when they are in face to face group settings. I have started seeing that it is making news such as here and here. I worry that this is an additional factor that might be a wedge that lessens the depth of connection they have with individuals. I have especially started nagging my sons to invest in some time/energy/money into a few male friendships and letting my daughters know they need to encourage the same with my son-in-laws. I am making sure they know as they get older they will find it harder to find those close relationships, so they need to take advantage of the ones they already have.
I see in some very significant ways that the church helps men get into a level of connection. There are many of times to rub shoulders on service projects and serving together in callings with other men. When I think of who I would feel OK calling for help I can only think of a few men that I have worked in callings for a while. At the same time, I have certainly felt that once I fulfilled my calling(s), done my home teaching, my missionary splits, did a bit of family history to reduce the guilt, attended the temple, signed up for the welfare farm, and spent a bit of time with my family along with some dates here and there – it was selfish of me to want to have some time to just spend with friends doing something like going to a movie or a sporting event with a friend. I look at the church in this area of men’s relationship a bit like the quote I gave from Richard Rohr back a few weeks ago of, “Mormon’s do first-half of life spirituality better than anybody else. And you have almost no second half of life [that is taught]”. In my experience it feels like the church has really helped some initial connections with other men, but then actually hindered me from moving forward in other ways. Only now that I am an empty-nester and no longer always says, “Yes” to every calling am I finally taking some time to really work on getting deeper friendships. The only disappointment I have found is most every connection I makes seems to move away within a year or so. I am either a bit unlucky or irritating enough that people will move thousands of miles away to get away from me.
What are other’s experiences in this area?
What are some ways the church helps men in this area?
Are there areas for improvement in this area?
Wheat & Tares 
I have made many good “acquaintances” or “associations” with other men over my many (65+) years in the church. Most were a function of working with them in church leadership callings (where there were many “leadership” meetings). None of my current limited number of good male “friends” are those I “served” with in callings.
My first reaction to the church’s changing Home/Visit Teaching to “Ministering” was that they missed an enormous opportunity. They should have named it something with the word “friend” in it.
[As an aside] I have long felt that the *primary* value (in pursuit of righteousness and happiness) of an organized ward, with meetings and classes and callings, is the sense of community that it can engender (NOT the sacrament, NOT lessons, NOT ordinances). In fact, the most damaging thing that our Stake leaders do…damaging to growing friendships, damaging to growing community, damaging to developing a sense of belonging, etc., is frequent boundary realignments. Those changes should be made with great reluctance rather than every 2-5 years as has occurred in my stake (and all but the first time 23 years ago were not due to growth in membership).
The anecdote the OP gave of men sharing their personal background is something that I think would be of outstanding value in helping us men better find friends among our “brethren.” Also, if we dropped the practice of using the titles “Brother” and “Sister” it would be beneficial to creating more of a sense of friendship and not whatever value there is in serfdom (as in “The *Kingdom* /Children of God).
Thanks for the comments fbisti. I agree with community being a huge part of their church expereince. Who knows – maybe it is the main reason for the majority of active members, but we are discouraged from stating that. I too have been through a few ward boundary realignments that really hurt people socially. Just a few years ago my ward was split in two and it was driven home just how much natural pressure is put to focus on those in your ward. Good friends that I had that are now in the other ward only occasionally come to my mind and I wish I would spend more time with them. Some are only a 4 minute drive away, but since the split years ago I have not been to their home nor them to mine. I need to go invite a few folks over.
I don’t mind the Brother/Sister if it is generally combined with first names. I routinely make up nicknames for people in my ward and I even call them such. They are usually a bit of a complement and humor mixed together. I too dislike us being so “formal” and always referring to people as Brother/Sister ‘lastname’.
I read through all the comments on the similarly themed BCC post when it came out because it was the first time I’d seen my husband’s problem addressed. He’s always wondered if it’s part of being Hispanic and foreign, but it sounds like it’s largely a guy thing. It hasn’t helped that we’ve moved a lot.
I love what you’ve done in your high priest group, and I think that has more to do with the purpose of church than any lesson.
I do think the church provides a lot of opportunities for community building through the now ministering programs and socials and even the new “council” teaching method. We’re great about having new people speak in sacrament meting as a way to get to know them (although it sometimes feels like a Sorting Hat for what kind of calling you’re going to get). I’ve heard some progressive Mormons say the way people introduce themselves at the beginning of talks “drives the spirit away” because it’s not about the Savior, but I disagree.
Things that don’t help:
I don’t know that this is emphasized much anymore, but the push a few years ago to make pre-sacrament meetings “reverent” didn’t help. I think fellowshipping each other IS reverencing the Savior, so….
We once received a lecture in Relief Society from one of our presidency (I think that’s what she was, anyway) about our not inviting non-members to socials. The way she put it was that these socials were “not for us”; they were supposed to be missionary opps. Well what are we, chopped liver? And looking at socials that way kind of reduced them to some sort of beer commercial, with lots of happy people hanging about enjoying being Mormon. Or a Potempkin Village, if you will. Or just plain bait.
One thing I’ve noticed about moving a lot is that it’s something of a death sentence for ward friendships. If all your social needs are met within the ward, there’s no need to put forth the extra effort to maintain a long-distance (as in, a few more blocks away) relationship.
But even within wards, some callings lead to close friendships, and others isolate you. Being a Primary teacher or a Nursery leader (not stereotypical man-callings, I know), for example, kills your ward social life. I feel like, if a ward has the manpower, they should assign those callings to multiple people who can alternate Sundays. Not sure how realistic that is, though, with the new team-teaching policy. I do think more visible callings are correlated with a better social life. More people knew me when I taught RS, for example.
I’m talking generally, because I guess being a girl I can’t think of things specific to being a guy. I do get the impression that guys are lectured more often about spending time with their families, because it’s assumed that we ladies are already spending all our time with our families. I do think SAHMs, in spite of our overall isolation, have an advantage in ward socializing because we can use our kids to make connections. It’s a lot less scary for me to suggest we “get the kids together” than to do lunch, which almost feels as intimidating as asking for a date. I think guys have the extra barrier of not wanting to appear to be gay. Whether or not I should have, I’ve suggested to my husband that his more physical shows of affection might not be welcome among other guys in U.S. culture. But now I’m getting into male culture in general, not so much LDS male culture.
I feel like, as a mom, I need to do better teaching my boys it’s OK to talk about their feelings, to show emotion and affection, and that friendships require work but they’re worth it.
…I should have said, “as a parent.”
Good post. I’m acquaintances with many men in my ward, but if I moved away, I doubt I’d ever contact more than one or two (who I consider friends) again. The problem is, I think, in part that everyone is running around fulfilling callings, doing their duty, etc. and after all that, likely working full time and needing to spend time with family. I also believe the way the LDS Church views gender is incredibly harmful. I’m not a “typical” guy, I like music, roses, creative writing and the ballet. I think that there are a lot of baseline assumptions about men as a group that are simply incorrect. And I, personally, resent the proclamation on the family in part because it suggests that men aren’t as empathetic and caring as women are and that we are essentially supposed to be beasts of burden and just earn a paycheck. I find I can’t relate to a lot of the men in my ward because they think exactly that way and buy into the Mormon (and American) guy codes, which I never have. And I certainly don’t make friends when I take on the proclamation or other nonsense in Sunday school. Speaking your mind in this church has enormous social consequences, and that affects both men and women.
Once when a woman in my Relief Society was (justifiably) criticizing our Utah ward for not being very friendly, she said she understood the situation better when she realized that most people here have tons of family in the area and they don’t need friends. That certainly seems to be the case for my husband. His parents and brothers all live nearby, so why does he need to invest in new friendships? I wish he would, though. I don’t think it’s a healthy social life, even for an introvert like him.
As a man in the church, I try to reach out to people, make friends, be friendly, etc. When I was EQ pres, I knew everyone and felt like I made and fostered many true friendships. The funny thing is t hough, most of my friends and some of my closest friends are not LDS. Most of my really good friends and my best friend are my cycling buddies. I just feel comfortable around them. We’ve spent 1,000’s of miles together on bicycles in heat, cold, wind, rain, racing, sleeping in crappy hotels, etc. We all have a close bond. Closer than the guys in my EQ for the most part. I think if the members of an EQ had more of a common bond from some activity that they regularly participated in together they would feel more united. It is tough though with work, family, callings, etc. The one elder in my quorum that I’m closest with just happens to bike bikes with me on a regular basis.
Robert, Were I to generalize your reported experience and my observation of changes in Church culture since the 1960s, I would say that many of us do not need callings, we need friends. I’d say, in addition to the perennial cultural problem reported by Brother Sky, that the change from large wards with wide-ranging, diverse activity programs to small wards with essentially no activities in which adults get to know each other (yes, I know this varies from ward to ward) has, for many, ended the Church as a reliable source of community and friendship — partly because it is difficult to find such friends in a small group of people determined by the geographical boundaries of their residences and subject to change at any time without input or choice by members, and partly because a result of such small wards is members’ time being so overburdened that there is little or no time for friendship, and partly because the overlapping 3-hour blocks of time for 3-4 wards meeting Sundays in a building leaves little or no time for a Sunday social hour. At this point, having built a multitude of small buildings that cannot accommodate large wards and having encouraged members, even if inadvertently, to find activities, social connection, and community elsewhere, I doubt that the problem can be fixed But if an EQ were bent on getting acquainted and being supportive instead of doing Sunday book reports on relatively substance-less general conference talks or harping forever on “ministering” instead of doing it, the situation might be improved.
Great post. Thanks for plugging the Hidden Brain episode. That one meant a great deal to me. Though I rarely attend local ward functions, I have to say I think the Elders Quorum specifically and ward leadership in general do a very good job of using email. There is a steady, but by no means incessant, flow of email messages. These invariably point members toward upcoming activities and in-person projects.
I’m a bit envious of anecdotes where men bond through callings. My faith crisis happened on my mission, and except for a brief stint as a singles ward choir director, I never got that bonding opportunity. I do think some of the struggles of male bonding in adulthood are probably inherent to our gender and aggravated by cultural norms. Where I have had opportunities to bond with other guys, its always been a choice requiring effort. Honestly though, I haven’t had a close buddy in many years and am not holding my breath on it happening again. Adulthood is just too darn busy and close friendships, like romance, simply aren’t a given.
Virtually all of my guy friends were made through church in one way or another. I hike, mountain bike, run, work out with male church friends. In that regard the church has been an excellent way for me to make solid male friendships.
My challenge is not making friends but having the freedom and time to spend with those friends. The first time I went on a 4 day backpacking trip my wife and it seems half the women in the ward assumed I was leaving my family. There is definitely an expectation that men spend disposable time – which means time not at work or at church – with the family, not some temporary and non eternal relationship with a running partner.
At 70 active all my life the only friend I have is my wife. For a few years in my thirties I thought of the bishop I was first councilor to as my friend, we were in a small ward an hours drive from the next ward, so spent time talking about everything, going to meetings. I tried this later with a different bishop, and he tried to ex me because I was for gay marriage.
Since the new elders quorum we have been having a person a week tell their story. Not one yet who has hobbies or interests outside church and family, except one divorced brother.
I think the preblem is we don’t discuss real life in any depth for fear of offending someone. How do you get to know someone by giving primary answers to any question?
I’m a bit late here but thank you for a great post. Close friendships are quite rare and I’m grateful for those I have. Now I’m going to go give my friends a hug.
Having a sport or hobby you share with other men will act as a catalyst to form those deep friendships. I have a group of about 7 guys that I surf with, some LDS and some not. After having spent literally 100’s of hours together sitting in the water together , talking about every subject while waiting for the next wave, I’ve got to know these guys very well. We’ve been through marriages, births, deaths, divorces, all while waiting for a wave. We’ve also been there in life threatening situations in big surf, helping in each other, and then telling stories making it bigger than it really was. I can call any of these guys in the middle of the night for help.
Loved the post. I have found that some of my blog and facebook interactions help me feel more close to others than those that reside in my neighborhood.
As a man in the church, I have also experienced this isolation. My wife and I made the effort to reach out to new families in the ward and invite them over for dinner. They would never reciprocate. Maybe they were just intimidated by our clean house (my wife is a neat freak)? Maybe I’m even weirder than I knew?
Even when my wife hit it off with one of the ladies in the ward, she would then expect that I would automatically be friends with the woman’s husband, especially if he had remotely related interests. It was couples dating, but only the women were really into it while I (we?) felt kind of forced into it. Not putting any effort into it was more about asserting my independence and choice than anything else. Why did I have to be friends with him just because my wife liked his wife?
Maybe it’s just that I can’t shake off my training as a youth, but I was taught to always refer to adults in the church as Brother or Sister Last Name. Often, I just can’t bring myself to only use their first name.
I also get the sense that time away from home is frowned upon. There are a few acceptable excuses, mainly having to do with sports (church ball, reasonable exercise), otherwise, my time belongs to my wife first, children second, me third. And that’s without mentioning God, callings, work, community, etc. Who has time for friends?
Before I was married, I had a married friend. I would often go over to his house and hang out, talk, watch TV, and play games. But there was always this sense of I was a friend “coming over to play” coming from his wife, like what we were doing was juvenile rather than it being a normal adult friendship. If I were to ever want to go hang out at the house of another EQ member / friend, I would get pushback from my wife, especially if I did it with any regularity. If I have free time on my hands, why am I not doing something productive? If they had kids who were the same age as mine, I might be able to get away with it if I took the kids, but then it would be a play date for them and limiting for us in terms of male bonding.
Even my friends from when I was a YSA, they all moved away and we don’t often interact. Usually it is me making the effort to preserve the friendship. Even the ones that all moved to the same area apparently rarely interact, unless they are in the same ward or stake. The first time they had gotten together in years was when I organized a BBQ with them all when I was visiting from out of state.
At times, some men seem like we have a common interest, but then we don’t. “You play video games, too? Have you played the latest Half-Counterstrike/Halo/Fortnite/etc.?” “No, but I have played the latest entry in the Final Fantasy series and several MMOs…”. “Oh… are those on XBox? Do you have XBox Live?” “No… I’m a PC gamer.” “Huh.” “Yeah…”. I mean, we could talk about some things generally, but it’d be like someone who loves soccer and hates football trying to be friends with someone who hates soccer and loves football. They’re both sports fans but it wouldn’t necessarily do much to help them build a friendship.
That said, our EQ had a very successful EQ social with food, video games, and card games. But then when we tried to have a follow-up board game night, hardly anyone showed. (Maybe four people, two of whom organized it and one who was just passing through on unrelated business…)
As for talking about anything truly significant… I have maybe had two or three friends like that my entire life. It would feel weird bringing up some of that stuff and it has just gotten worse since being married because I’m supposed to confide everything in my wife and I’m also not supposed to talk about our relationship with anyone else. Opening up to anyone else besides a therapist about relationship issues — arguments, sex, money, other relationship or family concerns — would be a violation of trust rather than a necessary outlet that could actually help our marriage.
When I have expressed interest in inviting people over for dinner that I think I can build a friendship with in spite of different interests, again, it’s couple dating and unless my wife feels it’s a good match for her (same stage of life), it becomes difficult to do anything.
I like the suggestions in the linked article for how to jazz up EQ, although judging by our ward choir, there’s not much musical talent in our men, except for in instruments that aren’t church approved (something besides the piano, organ, harp, flute, violin, cello, or viola).
The lack of openness and vulnerability starts with rule #1 of Mormondom — admit generic weakness and faults, minor sins, but never, under any circumstances except in the bishop’s office (or even then!), admit to watching porn, masturbating (whether with porn or not), violating the law of chastity before our marriage, or even being tempted to do any of these things. We’re all supposed to pretend that no one in the congregation did / does any of this, even adult converts, so we can all be properly horrified when some poor soul gets found out and the whole ward can tsk at him and give him a proper shaming to run him out of Zion. I’ve heard in some wards there are busybodies that feel it is their responsibility to report every minor violation to the bishop. You can’t have vulnerability in an environment where the least sign of imperfection gets discussed in committee. I was absolutely floored a few months ago when the instructor in EQ admitted that he had a porn problem “in the past”. Successful doctor, kids, pretty wife, former EQ President. He said he trusted us and that we would handle the information sensitively. But you could tell people weren’t sure how to handle the revelation. We kind of moved pass it and to my knowledge no one has ever mentioned it again, although I suppose they may have done so in private.
Statistically, we know the Saints are not perfect, but we sure like to pretend we are and punish non-comformity. This hampers our ability to form meaningful friendships.
EDS, your 4th and 5th paragraphs sum up the problem as I’ve experienced it. I know that some EQ (the former groups of mostly younger men) have had some quorum specific activities but I have never experienced that. The only priesthood social activities I’ve ever known have included my wife and/or my children. The message to me has always been, both explicitly and implicitly, that my time should be spent on work, church and family. Spending time with just the guys is indeed seen as juvenile, selfish and just wrong. It’s interesting that women in the church, in my experience, have been given the opposite advice. All RS activities in wards I’ve lived in have been only for the RS and girls nights out and even girls vacations have been quite common and accepted.
What I hear from SAHMs is that they’ve spent all day with the kids, therefore it’s the husband’s job to not ever leave her alone with them when he is not at work. This is why on Mother’s Day, the dad is supposed to give his wife a day free of kids, but on Father’s Day, the dad is supposed to spend quality time with the kids… again giving his wife a day free of kids.
The SAHM diminishes the value and benefits of being a SAHM and being so close to your children as they grow up, while simultaneously imagining that their husband’s day is one of relative leisure with no down side. It is assumed that all of the husband’s need for adult relationships is taken care of by his work — which is an utterly ridiculous assumption.
Since the SAHM expects to never be left alone with her children outside of her husband’s work hours and, sometimes grudgingly, his church service, this by necessity requires that he have no social life outside of work or people directly related to his calling.
Now maybe this is a bit of a stereotype or caricature, but let’s be honest. During the week, she needs her “off-duty time.” On the weekend it’s callings / Church service, chores / honey-dos, and family events. If she doesn’t recognize his need for male association outside of this, then he’s not going to get it unless he’s willing to fight about it — and remember that contention is of the devil and everything in our culture tells us we should be devoting everything to our wives and family. It’s much easier to give in than make a case against the context of our culture about a man’s emotional need for time with male friends and the negative consequences that accrue over time if it isn’t met.
I stumbled across this talk: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/04/priesthood-responsibilities?lang=eng
Although it doesn’t necessarily have to read as though it is in descending order of priority, I think that is the natural way to read it.
1) Family
2) Employer
3) The Lord’s work
4) Ourselves
In the section of the talk about “ourselves” — one paragraph near the end — only spiritual growth is mentioned. It would seem we should have no responsibilities to ourselves outside of that.
My first best friend I made in second grade and he was my friend until he died in upper middle age. He took a different road through life (which in part is why he died sooner than he ought to have).
Two other friends I made in middle school I still regularly correspond with; they are much too far to visit except for the rare opportunity. I also made many friends in my Navy career and keep up with some of them.
Marriage put an end to most friend activities and only the strongest friendships can live on infrequent contact.