Let me date myself big time. As a kid I grew up watching “Fat Albert” cartoons and fighting over who could do the best replication of the, “Hey Hey Hey, It’s Faaaaaat Albert” theme song. The title probably wouldn’t pass the politically correct filters these days, but I have fond memories of watching it – especially once we got a color TV! I then remember some of his comedy “albums” he put out (some my parents prohibited me from listening to them). Then there were the Bill Cosby hilarious stand-up routines that came out on VHS tapes and his many Jello commercials. His ability to take any story and make you laugh until your cheeks hurt was famous. Then there was the family favorite of watching the Huxtables on The Cosby Show. It certainly didn’t dive into topics like Black-ish does today, but it was great to see an upper-class family that just happened to be black. After a few years I did hear some comments he made toward the black community. Some of these I agreed with a bit and some felt a bit harsh and missing the mark on what really caused poverty in the black community. Even though I found those comments bothersome, but I still had an overwhelming warm feeling for the master comedic storyteller.
Then came the accusations of sexual misconduct that he is going on trial for now. I was saddened when I heard the accusations and at first I wasn’t sure if that wasn’t just a lie as it didn’t line up with the picture of Bill Cosby that I had. Then as more accusations were made by many women I wondered how much were true and how many were made up, but it certainly seemed to me to fall under the saying of, “where there is smoke, there is fire.”
Fast forward to just this last weekend when I started listening to the podcast covering this topic called Cosby Unraveled. I assume this podcast series has a very limited run time as this story will probably play out shortly one way or the other.
Listening to this podcast I heard the magnitude of the claims. I have heard more of the accusations and even information about some of his previous testimony under oath that was made public. I heard previous fans say they can’t even listen to any of the old recordings of Cosby as it is just too painful. Now a court of law with some jurors will soon determine if the accusations toward him meet the burden of proof to charge him for the crimes alleged.
It really made me feel saddened by learning some horrible accusations made against him and that he might have committed these acts. It really put a damper on my mood the whole weekend as it was hard to see someone I looked up to so much have this deep flaw.
In the midst of this malaise it occurred to me that this parallels my feeling of the church. I was raised by some good loving parents and they were committed to the faith. I do think the church made them better people, but also put some harmful strains on them in certain areas. I can make a long list of things that I am so glad to have had the church in my upbringing and I have by and large very fond memories of the church from my childhood.
But I have seen and heard of the times and ways the church and leaders have hurt people and then pushes to treat these injustices as not important, to just forget them and move on. It was hard to imagine the wonderful church leaders and the church’s teachings were hurting people. A stake president went to jail. A young gay man about my age hung himself while I left on my mission. I struggled to reconcile the church I knew and loved was doing such things. I doubted something so good could be doing such bad. Then I started listening to podcasts detailing some of the historical issues and things quickly crumbled. Just as some of the previous life-long fans of Cosby can no longer listen to what used to bring them enjoyment, I can’t sit and listen to general conference.
I am not trying to draw clear parallels between the actions of Mr. Cosby and equate those to the church’s actions. There are some huge differences on many levels. But I am bringing up how they both made me feel. I have to say that the biggest betrayal of my trust in my life has been with my church. In thinking about it I probably have to say that is probably proof that I have had a nice life if that is the worst I have experienced. It is probably the case that some of these women may have suffered more betrayal at the hands of Mr. Cosby than I have suffered having my pretty little faith bubble popped.
So far I have dealt with this by becoming a picky and not-so-hungry cafeteria Mormon. I am not sure that is working for me. I can’t seem to unsee things that bother me. But I do fear throwing out the baby with the bath water, so I am trying to take it slow.
Even if Bill Cosby is convicted, can I still respect him?
Can I still respect the church knowing what it has and is doing?
How have others worked through this and other situations of feeling betrayed?
Wheat & Tares 
“I am not trying to draw clear parallels between the actions of Mr. Cosby and equate those to the church’s actions. ”
But you did. Since you felt like it.
Around the mountain – I was trying to point out that I am not saying the actions of the church and the alleged actions of Mr. Cosby are identical. I am focusing on being deeply let down and how do I move forward from there.
Thanks for the comment.
Excellent parallels in so many ways.
As a child, Bill Cosby was held up as a shining example of success, ethics, and a life well lived. The LDS church in a very similar way was held up as being as perfect as an organization could be.
At this point in my life, I am grappling with uncomfortable facts and history about Bill Cosby. There is an entirely different set of facts and history surrounding the LDS church that I am also struggling with.
Maybe it is a generational thing. Cosby and the LDS church were both held up as above reproach.
Is there good in Cosby? Yes. Is there good in the LDS church? Yes. Both entities have also had terrible things occur that they were actively involved in. Those need to be addressed.
For me, the shine is gone from both.
There is a difference between the church, individual human beings which represent the church, and the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’ve become a lot more concerned with the last, and much more reserved about the second. The first is what the other two make of it.
We lose faith/admiration of a person who turns out to be not as virtuous as we thought. Well, sometimes. If the negative issue was not previously alluded to (Cosby’s case) its appearance is quite shocking. What if the issue is presented, denied, and then proven correct (Bill Clinton)? Many rationalized it away; and his popularity is still high among his admirers.
Herman Cain had a similar issue against him as Cosby, but once he withdrew as a presidential candidate, the issue was no longer given attention. Had the (unspoken) goal been achieved?
As far as the comparison to the Church and its Leaders, I have to ask:
“…the church and leaders have hurt people…” or is it that people have let themselves be hurt by something in the church?
“Can I still respect the church knowing what it has and is doing?” That’s an unfair discussion question without specifics that
you must be willing to share.
“I can’t sit and listen to general conference.” If you’re admitting that there is absolutely NOTHING positive that you can glean
from Conference, would you feel better standing outside Temple Square protesting?
Could some of this be described as the “Simonds Ryder reaction”?
I related very much to your struggle. I’ve worked though most of my issues so that I’m no longer outright angry or carrying around the betrayal on my shoulders. In most ways I feel a great deal of peace about where I am in my life and my relationship with God. I hate attending church though. And it isn’t because of the teachings (which as someone with a love of history come off as mythological to me, but I’ve learned to live with it), but because of a subtle, unending pressure from the other members of the church. The pressure is to be like them, shape my faith like theirs, see the world through my Mormon-Glasses only (a phrase used in a 5th Sunday lesson that caught on it our ward), fit in, don’t do/say anything to rock *their* boat.
I can’t unsee what Bill Cosby (or JS, etc.) did. And I find trying to pretend that I do both exhausting and unnerving. And yet unless I want to leave the church and really, really mess up my marriage and family, I am stuck.
Markag – Thanks for the reply.
I don’t know if I will “answer” the questions you posed, but I will at least comment on them.
“…the church and leaders have hurt people…” or is it that people have let themselves be hurt by something in the church?
I can’t quite tell if you are asking if the church/leaders are actually doing injury vs people just being easily offended. See my next answer if you want to see what I mean by harm.
“Can I still respect the church knowing what it has and is doing?” That’s an unfair discussion question without specifics that you must be willing to share.
I think if you spend much time in the bloggernacle you can find some rather common themes, but if you can’t feel this can be discussed without me being explicit I will just throw out 2 items that come to mind.
The first would be that a young lady is date raped and when they go to discuss this with their bishop they are for all intent and purposes told, “you are at fault since you didn’t resist until death and now you need to repent” while the YM in question is given a much lighter grilling.
The second would be of a friend of mine growing up that was gay. The church was clear in its teachings at the time that being gay was a sin. It was also taught that you could overcome your gayness with prayer and also that this “burden” would be corrected in the life after. I honestly believe my friend hung himself so he could move to the “next stage” where he would be transformed into a heterosexual post-mortal being.
“I can’t sit and listen to general conference.” If you’re admitting that there is absolutely NOTHING positive that you can glean from Conference, would you feel better standing outside Temple Square protesting?
I have heard a good message or two per 12 hours of talks, such as the one 2 conferences ago about helping refugees. It is just that there are so many that I just find frustrating that I can’t sit over conference weekend and listen to them all at once without getting quite frustrated.
I have zero desire to protest outside of temple square. I would be fine to just have the option to never go to temple square again. I would like the option to step back and figure things out a bit. Who knows – I might even want to come back. But just like the commenter Anony, if I were to take that stand I would be sitting in divorce court in short order.
And I hope you have learned that there is evidence that Symonds Ryder didn’t leave JUST because his name was misspelled. There are possibilities he was concerned that if he were to leave on the mission he was called to serve that his property would be confiscated and put into the United Order. He also didn’t leave when the misspelling occurred. It was some time afterwards. Like much of history it isn’t 100% clear, but it seems to me that this is one of many stories that only 1 side is told or given any credibility in order for many to say, “I am not THAT petty and unrighteous”.
HH: Thanks for a good response to my reply. Let me add a little .
Your 1st specific case. A discussion of that nature should always be in confidence; so I wonder who broke that confidentiality? If the bishop did, he should’ve been removed from office. Confidentiality in church matters is something highly emotional to me after seeing the policy abused and corrupted in my former church.
What happened to your friend is tragic. Whoever “counseled” him would have difficulty getting my support, at least for a time No one likes to be told that an aspect of their lifestyle is sinful (against Church beliefs, etc.) The phrase that annoys me is hearing that something “doesn’t invite the spirit”. My individual likes/dislikes in music would elicit it, but your friend suffered far worse.
Of course you have the option to never go to Temple Square again. We all do. Hopefully those who make similar decisions are perceptive in how they are effected from that time on.
Ryder may have been a bad example, but I’ve known some who let things blow out of proportion until it’s too difficult to backtrack; but I don’t think you’re one of them.
I don’t think of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a criminal organization, as Mr. Cosby is accused of being a criminal person, so your comparison doesn’t work for me. But assuming, arguendo, that you are disappointed that the Church and its members haven’t measured up to your expectations, will you forgive them?
I have to say, I had not thought of the parallel until this post but I see it now. For many years, I saw the Church through a prism that only let in correlated, faith promoting material. Once the luster started peeling off just as with Cosby, my eyes were opened. Does the Church still do some good? I would say yes. It also has done some horrible things in the name of religion.
“You don’t get to have me” is one of the great lines in cinema history, and also happens to be a healthy response to discovering that the LDS church is something completely other than what you’d been led to believe. Grosse Point Blank, a must-see for Mormons on their way out.
Happy Hubby, thank you for this heart wrenching post and being willing to share a deep part of yourself. I think I appreciate what you are trying to do here: mourn the loss of a hero. Even if the specifics don’t match up perfectly, the feeling of disappointment will have a similar echo. I recently watched the film Wonder Woman and not to spoil anything I will just say the film presents a fictitious scenario that I think would bring up similar feelings. Having the dreams and ideals of childhood tarnished is my least favorite part of growing up.
I can tell by other comments here that others also have these feelings. If I may be a little transparent myself , although I’ve had disappointments and although the Church has disappointed me, it sounds like it has not to the degree that you feel or that other commenters are feeling. I still really do look up to the church and find joy in being a member. I don’t say this to brag or tell others how to feel, only to puzzle over the problem of how people can have such different experiences with the same organization. (It is also attempting to be honest with myself that I don’t think I can really answer your question “How have others worked through this and other situations of feeling betrayed?” because I think my experience is so much, well “smaller” for lack of a better word. My experience would not present the big answers I think someone whose feelings of betrayal are bigger than what I experienced.)
“So far I have dealt with this by becoming a picky and not-so-hungry cafeteria Mormon. I am not sure that is working for me.”
Regardless of where the future of your faith takes you I hope you find something that does work for you. Thank you again for sharing a bit of yourself.
Thank you, Happy Hubby. I can relate to your feelings of shifting from seeing an individual or organization in shining, rosy colors to suddenly seeing that their actions have been much more complicated. In a way, this shift happens to a lot of us with our parents, when we mature and realize that they aren’t perfect, they don’t know everything, and they can’t solve every problem.
As others have commented, it is difficult to make comparisons between individuals and institutions. But as you said, the experience of having a very idealized view of Bill Cosby/the LDS Church and then having to deal with the disappointment of discovering that that view was naive and incomplete, and that Bill Cosby/the LDS Church are both responsible for considerable harm, is a difficult experience to manage.
Ji – I have tried to be clear that I am not saying that the church has committed equivalent misdeeds. I am saying I feel quite sad and let down by both. And I do feel on many fronts I have “forgiven” the church for things that I see it did wrong, but there are things (especially on-going) that I have to say I have not and I am not sure it is right for me to let those go as I see them as injustices or causing harm.
Miguel, I do agree the church does some good. So does the Unitarian church a few blocks over, so does the Salvation Army, and even the Scientologists do some good and have events where they volunteer service to the community. I still LOVE my ward. In fact that is probably what keeps me from severing ties. In fact most of the ward would shocked if they know how I feel about the church as I have held most callings except the bishop (but I have been a counselor in several bishoprics). I have loved every ward I have been in except one and I didn’t dislike it. It was more just “meh” for me.
Jason B – Thanks for the love-filled comment. Oh how I wish that more individuals would have this perspective, both in the church and those that are not quite or even out of the church. I just feel love and respect from your post. Made my week!
Joel – your comment made me wonder why I can look at my parents and I see their flaws plain as day (even can clearly recall getting the snot beat out of me, but that was 40+ years ago), but still have DEEP love for them. But I can’t say the same for the church. My first blush answer is that my parents accept me and we are more like peers. We respect each other’s opinions. It feels to me the church does not want to hear of my concerns and I shouldn’t even mention them or I am going to be punished. The church does not want to hear about any of it’s flaws or shortcomings. It just doesn’t feel like a healthy relationship to me right now, but instead feels like a relationship with a person that is very demanding of my loyalty, but is overly sensitive of any criticism.
There is the church as a soon to be 200 year-old organization with the shifting view of past proclamations of enlightenment and current proclamations that put members and friends of the faith in challenging theological dilemmas, and there is the church that is taught in individual homes and ward buildings, providing opportunities to bolster and serve the one. I grew up in a home that was a solace and fortress against the evils and day to day difficult realities of childhood. My wife grew up in a home that was a warped façade of the LDS ideals of the church with first hand abuse and neglect. I have done evil things in my life that I hope are never known to the world and that I can strive with devotion to adhere to the ideals of the LDS faith and be one who can serve and bolster others. My wife learned that the kindness of LDS individuals in her life that reached out to her were evident that the evil perpetrated in her own home was not representative of the highest ideals of the LDS faith. She still has difficulty in reconciling those quotes her parents used from the church in the name of perpetuating falsehood, but feels a great debt to those who did something to bring her light during a time of darkness.
I am not sure how to reconcile the life of Bill Cosby yet within my mind. I was never a big enough fan that I feel like I have to give up something based upon the fallout. I have found comments and actions of individuals and the institution of the LDS church that I felt were somewhat warped in view of being a body of Christ, but I try to pick the highest ideals out of General Conferences and let those that miss the mark, in my opinion (i.e. ‘ponderizing’) fade away from memory. Is that being a Cafeteria Mormon–or adhering to Article of Faith 13? There is that one quote about never letting a program to be run become more important than a person to be loved–or something to that effect. That is among what I have taken as the highest ideals.
I really enjoyed the “becoming aware of parental flaws” and LDS Church comparison. A lot depends on relationship, transparency, and forgiveness. There is also a difference between abuse and flaws. Flaws are more easily overcome with relationship, transparency and forgiveness with coresponding trust building again. Abuse may be forgiven but trust never restored..never truly overcome. So a lot depends on the parents/church and the experiences had with them. It is also different if you’re the one abused or you’re the sibling that finds out about the family/church secrets later.
Happy Hubby.
Good question: How does one balance the “good” Cosby did against the wrongs he “allegedly” has committed–and the same question
for the Church.
I’ve not experienced the personal tragedy of losing a friend related to church teachings as you’ve had. Certainly it would be harder to be philosophical
in your case.
I would characterize my feelings toward the church at a minimum as disillusionment–like finding out Santa Clause isn’t real. The thing is we–leaders included–speak/spoke (past and present) with such certainty regarding truthfulness and accountability. We place ourselves above all other religions. We claim to have all the answers, (yet it is obvious we don’t even know/accept all the questions). The church places itself as a moral authority–and as such it ought to be held to a higher standard. The Prop 8 campaign was a disaster for my family’s involvement in the church. (and we didn’t even have the personal experience of a family member or friend being affected by these policies). What we saw is leaders presenting misleading and untruthful information and the demonization of people. Yes, I too am more selective as to the level of and type of involvement I have in the church. My spouse–little to no involvement. I had quite innocently discovered (not on the internet) a more true picture of church history long before Prop 8–and it definitely shifted the foundation below me. But Prop 8 campaign was, by a large margin, worse.
So why do I maintain (any) contact with the church? Largely habit I suppose, and for those members of my family who are still involved. It angers me that our leaders teach about acknowledging and “righting wrongs” but then do nothing of the sort individually or collectively. I keep hearing that part of church history where Joseph Smith heard “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me,” and wonder which camp is the church in?