Sometimes there are some really strange stories in the Bible. We learn in Samuel 28:3 that the prophet
3 ¶Now Samuel was dead….
Yet King Saul apparently want to talk to him, so he asks for a witch to conjure up Samuel:
7 ¶Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at En-dor.
The witch gives Saul a vision of the dead prophet Samuel.
15 ¶And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
Samuel goes on to say
17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Remember that according to Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live:
How did a witch conjure up Samuel to prophecy of Saul’s death? (Note this was a true prophecy–Saul died in that battle.) I thought the power of God could only be wielded by (1) a member of God’s chosen people, (2) a male.
Furthermore, I’m not clear about this reference to polytheism in verse 13:
And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
For more information on polytheistic gods, check out Mormon Heretic’s post on Canaanite Dieties.
How is a witch able to summon a prophet, and a true prophecy? What do you make of this strange story?
Wheat & Tares 
Can’t wait to hear what Jared and his “strong foundation in the scriptures and prayer” have to say about this story.
I agree. This is a weird story.
There are other stories in the Bible where the men go to a woman whether the word for her is translated witch or prophetess. That is because the people of Isreal believed in the idea that God had a wife and this Goddess had priestesses who worked right alongside of the priests of what we translate as Jehovah.
So, how I interpret this story? That the Mormon church needs to figure out who the Goddess is and have priestesses who serve our Mother in Heaven just as the male priesthood serves Jesus Christ and Father in Heaven. Perhaps we fail to understand this story because we do not have the full truth.
To paraphrase Shakespeare, clearly there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy.
Some definitions of familiar spirits in the Old Testament seem to imply that those spirits used satanic powers to allow dead people to communicate with the living. Yet, the gift of prophecy also implies that the prophet or prophetess may be able to access power from beyond the veil to foresee the future and to even access the dead, as Joseph Smith did with John the Baptist, Moroni, Peter, James and John. Since Moses said “would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets” (see Numbers 11:29), I wonder if some have the power to commune with the dead for good and some for ill. Perhaps we may misjudge another when we assume that their prophetic gifts are inspired by Satan, and perhaps we put too much trust in some who profess to be perfectly prophetic on every issue. It requires discernment to distinguish between those who are drawing from good and evil sources as they profess to prophecy. Surely, by their fruits (and their words) we can and shall know them.
MH–Wait no longer.
My thoughts on this subject are based on what is presented in scripture. Following are my thoughts. I invited others who use scripture to present their thoughts.
1. Question: are witches prophetesses?
2. Question: Is Samuel in the spirit world at the beck and call of a witch?
3. Question: Does Satan have power?
1. Answer: No. The standard works do not present doctrine that support the idea that witches, sorcerers, and the like operate by the power of God. They do operate by the power of Satan.
2. Answer: No. There is no reason I know in scripture that would lead one to believe witches can call forth the spirits of the righteous.
3. Answer: Yes. Satan has power. One example, Satan had power over young Joseph Smith when he enter the grove. It wasn’t until God delivered Joseph that Satan’s power was broken. The Book of Mormon teaches that Satan and those who uphold his work have power to deceive. They make evil appear good, make darkness for light, and bitter for sweet (2 Nephi 15:20).
Altered scripture is also a tool Satan uses to deceive. From the Book of Mormon we learn:
“…because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.” 1 Nephi 13:29
Thus, the reason Joseph Smith was instructed not to join any church. He was given authority to start a restored church, bring forth the Book of Mormon, and many other things to prepare for the second coming of Christ.
I can’t answer your questions, but Joseph Smith had issues with this story too. Reading from the JST published by the RLDS church (these changes won’t be in our KJV Bible) the story is a little different:
verse 11: Then said the woman, THE WORD OF whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, bring me up THE WORD OF Samuel.
verse 12: And when the woman saw THE WORDS OF Samuel, she cried with a loud voice; and the woman spake to Saul, saying Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
verse 13: And the king said unto her, Be not afraid; for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw THE WORDS OF SAMUEL ascending out of the earth. AND SHE SAID, I SAW SAMUEL ALSO.
verse 14: And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said I SAW and old man COMING up covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped, his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
verse 15: AND THESE ARE THE WORDS OF SAMUEL UNTO SAUL, Why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up?… (The rest of the chapter is unchanged.)
The JST version creates and interesting problem. Reading Jared’s response, it would seem from an orthodox perspective that the entire story is either fake or from Satan. But if JS used Priesthood Power and spiritual gifts to correct the story to what God wanted it to be, then how does one (Jared? – although I don’t mean to pick on you) overcome the problem of a woman being the mouthpiece of God towards someone who under current understanding of authority would be ‘over’ her (at the very least)? Is JS’s translation (via Priesthood Power) also under the influence of Satan? Fun stuff.
Iron Age beliefs seeping through into the text. The OT is a product of Iron Age people and I would expect to see such superstition and myth working itself into the text.
Consider this approach by Joseph Fielding Smith. The powers of darkness do have power and abilities as explained here.
“‘But,’ it is argued, ‘the prediction uttered by the spirit which was manifested on that occasion was literally fulfilled. Israel was delivered into the hand of the Philistines, and Saul and his three sons and his armor bearer and the men of his staff were all slain. It was therefore a true prophecy.’ Admitting that as perfectly correct, the position taken in this article is not in the least weakened. If the witches, wizards, necromancers and familiar spirits, placed under the ban of the law, did not sometimes foretell the truth there would have been no need to warn the people against consulting them. If the devil never told the truth he would not be able to deceive mankind by his falsehoods. The powers of darkness would never prevail without the use of some light. A little truth mixed with plausible error is one of the means by which they lead mankind astray. There is nothing, then, in the history of the interview between Saul and the woman of Endor which, rationally or doctrinally, establishes the opinion that she was a prophetess of the Lord or that Samuel actually appeared on that occasion.” (Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:108–9.)
Jared, interesting that you posed your own questions which were easy to answer, rather than the questions in the post, which weren’t easy to answer.
I have to agree with orangganjil on this one. There is a lot of Iron Age superstition going on here. The fact that a witch conjures a true prophet and then prophecies something which turns out true wouldn’t have been seen as a problem among polytheistic peoples. However, later Jews and Christians would hold to what Christ said in Mark 3:
So I have a real hard time believing that God is going to obey a witch and send Samuel to Saul when a house divided cannot stand.
Now, for polytheistic peoples, they didn’t hold so strongly to lines of authority that we do. They wouldn’t have had a problem with the story, but it would have been a testimony to them that even witches recognize a prophet. Yet for us moderns, this story is EXTREMELY problematic. It makes no theological priesthood sense at all.
I appreciate Ranae bringing up the JST to the story. That’s a valuable perspective. Even still, the JST doesn’t solve a problem of why a witch is conjuring up a true prophet. The story is only slightly better, but whether Samuel was an angelic appearance (as the Bible implies) or more of a revelation of words (as JST implies), you’ve still got someone outside the priesthood line (a female no less!) communicating with Samuel. Our theology simply doesn’t allow for this, JST or not.
It’s a weird story, and has been debated for over 1000 years by Jews. See http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-witch-of-endor/
Interesting to bring up Joseph Fielding Smith. I have had several conversations with Margaret Young, and she completely rejects Smith’s curse of Cain rationale (also in that book) and repudiated by the Race and Priesthood essay. So while I appreciate you trying to turn to a prophet for an answer, that book in particular is known to contain stuff we have theologically repudiated, so I wouldn’t rely on it as authoritative to rationalize this strange story. (Besides, if you truly understood the scriptures, you wouldn’t need to rely on JFS anyway. Just fast and pray and Help always comes, right?)
Sorry, I know that last thought was a cheap shot, but I’m just trying to illustrate that fasting and praying doesn’t always give answers as you stated in that previous post about temple prep. Glad you’re studying non-scriptural books to try to explain this though. And thanks for trying. I enjoy these posts on scriptures, even if there are no devotionally satisfying answers, and I appreciate you chiming in on a good post on the scriptures Jared. It seems these types of posts get ignored and discounted far too often.
In the Joseph Smith translation there is a note at the bottom regarding this saying that this cannot be a bona fide situation where a revelation is received through a spiritualist medium.
MH , et al,
It was fun. Currently, my life is unusually busy. I haven’t been able to come by as often as I would like.
Clarification about my earlier statement on fasting and prayer. I never intended to convey the idea that every time I fast and prayer I receive help. I should have said, every time I fast and pray about trails, afflictions, and difficulties that weigh me down I have received help. Heavenly Father is merciful. If we will do what we can to draw close to Him, he will support us in our trials, troubles, and afflictions.
I see the same thing in scripture. For example, Nephi says,” receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do” (2 Nephi 32:5).However, this verse by itself is misleading. In D&C there is a companion scripture that provides insight, “the Holy Ghost, which manifesteth all things which are expedient unto the children of men” (D&C 18:18). The word “expedient” is essential to properly understanding the workings of the Holy Ghost.
My rule to properly understand scripture is to not read a verse in isolation. There generally is a companion scripture that provides greater understanding to the subject at hand.
I agree that books by prophets and GA have errors and incomplete information in them. That is a given. They do the best that can at the time, but being fallible, occasionally fall short. The doctrine of fallibility is essential part of Mormonism. We’re taught that there is opposition in all things. But, we need to be careful about throwing the baby out with the bath water. Joseph Fielding Smith’s books have evidence of fallibility, and at the same time contain very valuable contributions.
Jared, I appreciate you hedging here, but there was no hedging when you wrote
“I fast weekly and pray at least three times a day. Help always comes.
I go to the temple weekly. The temple is not confusing or a mystery to me.”
It would be nice for you to be more humble in your prescription for others. There was absolutely no hedging there.
So MH clarified what I was getting at, but haven’t seen an answer to, from an orthodox perspective. Why would God respond to a female witch (possibly under the influence of Satan)?
Ugh. Lehcarjt = ReTx. My phone gets confused.
I wouldn’t try to read any heavy doctrine from or into the witch of Endor story. Sometimes, it is best to read a story as a story.
lehcarjt,
I do think Jared quoting Joseph Fielding Smith is as close to an orthodox answer as you’re going to get. Just remember Smith was wrong about other things in the book. So, I think that we hold fast to the things which are good, and reject those things that are bad (such as his explanations on the race based ban.) Still, despite Smith claiming “the position taken in this article is not in the least weakened.” I reject that statement. “There is nothing, then, in the history of the interview between Saul and the woman of Endor which, rationally or doctrinally, establishes the opinion that she was a prophetess of the Lord or that Samuel actually appeared on that occasion.”
Smith’s only answer then is to reject the Bible story as wrong, so he’s tying himself in knots trying to rationalize the story. It’s a theologically unsatisfactory story, despite Smith’s claims to the contrary that “the position taken in this article is not in the least weakened.” Smith’s position is absolutely weak.
I find this kind of thing interesting to think about, but I often don’t engage because when I used to try to make this kind of story fit into the contemporary Mormon school of thought I would often find myself either shrugging my shoulders and giving up or inadvertently making up my own explanation, a proof-text that didn’t fit in the original context.
So my understanding, which admittedly doesn’t fit well into conventional mormonism, is that that the story looks like a Hebrew folk tale of sorts, in Hebrew tradition, that may involve some mixing of other local cultures. It may also have been changed over time. Either way, it looks to me like the culture this sprang from believed that Samuel really could convey a message from the dead through a witch/prophetess (the difference between the two may not have been as clear back then). I have little doubt that those who carried this story in oral tradition, then wrote it down and transcrbed it, believed the vision to be valid. I see no biblical reason that God’s power should be limited to men, nor even to righteous people. Presumabley, God’s power was also shown to Balaam through a talking ass (which I also consider to be a folk tale).
MH makes the suggestion that “we hold fast to the things which are good, and reject those things that are bad (such as his explanations on the race based ban.)” I think this is wise, but I also think it is a bit of circular reasoning. Religion/scriptures/prophets are supposed to help us know what is right, but we actually end up figuring out what is good or bad and then re-interpreting the stories to match.
There are several interesting things about this story. Saul had essentially lost all legitimate avenues of communication with Jehovah, so he resorted to a method that he previously banned. I personally don’t think it inconceivable that Samuel may have responded in this situation (in the Jewish Study Bible, Samuel is the “divine being” the woman sees rising from the ground in verse 13 – there aren’t any other gods), but I also see as plausible the argument that it was an evil spirit impersonating Samuel. As for the intermediary being a woman, the bible makes clear this was an unapproved method (there are other women listed as legitimate intermediaries elsewhere – Deborah and Huldah, though they do not practice necromancy). The writers could’ve indicated the witch was a prophetess or priestess of Jehovah, but it’s important to the story that Saul has fallen so low as to stoop to something illegal.
Would God allow a woman to communicate with a dead prophet that way? Not sure, but in my ward I get to hear “out there” stories on a regular basis. The witch of Endor story is far from the weirdest.
I have to admit this is one of many stories in the Old Testament that I cannot accept as written. It doesn’t really bother me so much, because these stories are so old and preserved by scribes who weren’t necessarily inspired. Also, much of it was clearly “written by the winners”. This doesn’t mean the Old Testament doesn’t have value, but my faith really doesn’t rely on it much and is only mildly shaped by it.
This story seems to suggest to me that I’m not sure I will ever have the time or capacity to understand it. And there are many other things in the scriptures to focus on for me. This is my weakness. I pick and choose, or proof-text what is meaningful, and just accept it is what most of us do.
However…when I hear things like this: ” If the devil never told the truth he would not be able to deceive mankind by his falsehoods. The powers of darkness would never prevail without the use of some light. A little truth mixed with plausible error is one of the means by which they lead mankind astray. ”
…to me, it sounds like a completely biased view of things is being made and presented as if it is simple and clear fact, when it can’t be.
It is like saying:
1. Prophets have all the light and truth and can be trusted always, and if they are sometimes wrong (like Joseph Fielding Smith) about some subjects they weren’t speaking as prophets at the time, but with further revelation they will be clarified and corrected, and the human errors will be made corrected by revelation from God. The scripture is perfect but according to the understanding of prophets to receive and write the scripture which may lead to human error.
2. The devil is sometimes mixing in untruths with truths and can never be trusted. The human errors are by design from the evil one. They are philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.
It just becomes a circular argument when you say the prophet is right except when they aren’t, and those things that are wrong are of the devil and are wrong even when mixing in plausible error to look right. Because if you stand back and look at it objectively….sometimes the magicians in Pharoah’s court did magic, sometimes Moses did magic…we all just make up stories around them to cling to the lessons we want to teach through stories to try to promote what we think is good or bad.
I think it is a weak argument to just use “the bible as far as it is translated correctly” for the problematic stuff….but still hold on to other parts of the bible you like and say, “that stuff was translated correctly and it still stands today and God is unchanging and perfect”.
I accept that we do not not have all answers to the scriptures, and the versions we have now are problematic at times. It allows for study and personal revelations, and I have let go of notions that everything is meaningful to me and my relationship to God. Some stuff isn’t.
The witch of Endor might as well be on the planet of Endor in my mind, and the spirit of Anakin speaks to the living Jedi Luke in hopes of good fighting evil.
They are stories. In all honesty…I think this one is kinda cool to me. It doesn’t prove anything to me on how we converse with the spirit world today.