I recently listened to a discussion on the At Last She Said It podcast with guest scholar & researcher Jana Reiss. They were talking about the current trend in which many more young women are leaving the church as they come of age, far more than in prior generations. The trend used to be that women were considered “more spiritual” because no matter how you treated them, they kept coming to church. Jana had pointed out what she calls the 3 Ps as reasons more women are leaving: politics, purity culture and powerlessness. Dave B also posted about this last month. While these are interesting findings sociologically, the ALSSI discussion added some color to the conversation. They particularly talked about missions being beneficial to women, but at the same time showing them very starkly that they are not valued on par with men in the church. That was definitely my experience, which I wrote about in my mission memoir The Legend of Hermana Plunge.

Another observation the three women made is that Gen Z women are aware of the compromises their mothers have often made in marriage, and they are unwilling to put up with half a life. They expect to be equals in their marriages. When I was a young woman, there weren’t many men in or out of the church who met my standards for equal treatment. Now that decades have passed, it’s more likely you will be treated as an equal if you date outside the church than inside the church, although there are plenty of people to avoid everywhere.

Women have long talked about how to avoid red flags in dating, but there are some uniquely Mormon red flags that are how problematic behavior shows up due to the culture. A “red flag” can be a bit subjective, of course. I may have less tolerance for being treated unequally, and my own needs may differ from someone else’s. We all have our own hopes and dreams for how our lives will be. With TikTok culture, women are much more aware of what others consider to be “red flags,” and are using these as criteria to avoid problematic relationships.

When I was dating, there were a few things I used to do to avoid men who did not see me as their equal (which was ironic since a lot of them were totally not worth my time). A few of my strategies were:

  • Light swearing. If he was missish about this or worse, tried to lecture me, forget that.
  • Referring to women’s body stuff to see how he reacts
  • Age gaps–this changes as we get older, but I was not interested at all in anyone who was more than 5 years older than me, particularly when I had basically no life experience yet, so what was I even bringing to the table? A blank slate he could write on, that’s what.
  • If he used the word “female” as a noun that’s a nah for me. What are we, lab rats?
  • Suggesting a date to the temple was a hard pass–that’s not a date. You are literally not interacting with each other at all. Plus, it’s not fun. Have a personality, my dude.
  • Being insufficiently outraged at polygamy. Men have various responses if you bring up the concept of eternal polygamy doctrine. Nearly all of them have the good sense to look like they just accidentally stepped on a landmine and are now afraid to move for fear it will go off. Some try to fob it off on “I don’t really understand that, but it sounds awful.” Obviously it’s a ginormous red flag if they are rubbing their hands together with glee at the prospect, but that was never enough for me. Either they see that it’s exploitative, or they can keep walking.
  • On my mission, while I thought some of the elders were great guys I would consider dating, I would not have dated anyone who was corrupted by leadership. Even if they started those roles humbly, they quickly started to get really full of themselves. Not everyone to the same extent, but enough of them did that it was a big turnoff.
  • If he talked about the future as if the role of “wife” could be filled by just about anybody, and he didn’t assume I had my own dreams and plans or simply didn’t ask about them or listen when I shared them, that’s not IMO a relationship. That’s a guy looking for a Plus One. Anyone can be your “plus one.” I’m more than that.

This last one is a huge issue in dating Mormon men, particularly since Pres. Benson shamed women for wanting careers and financial independence. Quite a lot of men have what’s called Main Character Energy. They see the other people around them as supporting players in their story. To some extent everyone does this, but in a relationship, both people have to matter or no thanks. At the extremes, men who think this way see their wives and children a possessions, under their control and authority, resources to them to help them in whatever their own goals are, but not fully people in their own rights. This is how domestic abusers and family annihalators think.

I also asked some other women who grew up in the church what “red flags” they experienced with Mormon men in their dating experience. Some of these apply to all men, and some are unique to Mormon culture. Here’s a starter list they provided:

  • Using his patriarchal blessing to try to manipulate you, claiming it is somehow binding on you (e.g. you have to marry him because it’s describing you).
  • The “spirit” told me–using this statement to justify what he wants, to add pressure to get you to do something or not do something.
  • Name dropping his church pedigree to add weight to his importance.
  • Speaking his mission language and claiming he forgets sometimes and just slips into it.
  • Bragging about his missionary leadership positions. To quote Jim from the Office, “Never has so little power gone to someone’s head before.”
  • Bearing their testimony unprompted
  • Praying in a restaurant
  • Claiming “revelation” to get you to do what he wants (including marriage)
  • Talks ad nauseum about his mission
  • Gives you a list of traits that would disqualify someone for marriage: tattoo, not being a virgin, short hair, how you dress, what you are studying, etc.
  • Wants to do scripture study together
  • Blames you for his sexual urges and takes no responsibility
  • Thinks he’s smarter than you, even in your area of expertise
  • Has no women friends
  • Is disgusted by women’s bodies, except as relates to his own pleasure (e.g. makes a face about periods or breastfeeding)
  • Uses violence against objects around you (this usually escalates to domestic violence)
  • Can’t list any women’s achievements he admires–except motherhood
  • Uses the word patriarch
  • Modesty shames you

I mentioned that a lot of Gen Z women are discussing these red flags, not just in the church, particularly since toxic masculinity is really having a renaissance among many men thanks to the rise of the manosphere which has been embraced by the political right. While Mormons are generally less problematic than Evangelicals, the difference is in degree, not in kind. They are on that same spectrum culturally. You can’t really have one spouse “preside” in an equal marriage. Sorry, but that’s not a thing. That’s a hierarchy, not equality. Here are some red flags that Gen Z women seek to avoid:

  • He sees the husband as the “leader” of the wife. He sees disagreement as disrespect. He claims women are happier with this arrangement.
  • Women’s pleasure is not on the radar. Sex = p in v with male orgasm, and anything the woman experiences is either a bonus or irrelevant.
  • He talks about a woman’s role in marriage, but has a hard time articulating his own obligations. That’s entitlement, not equality. He assumes childcare and housework are “women’s work,” or doesn’t know how to do things like laundry, cooking, cleaning or changing diapers. He doesn’t understand or value the amount of time and work involved in these tasks. He expects gratitude for pitching in at all or wants to be told what to do to help.
  • He sees his career as more important. If he needs to move for a promotion or transfer, that’s a given. If she does, that’s just silly.
  • He believes that earning money gives one more power and authority in the relationship. This is a transactional approach to marriage that results in lack of respect for the work done by the lower-earning spouse.
  • He makes jokes about “allowing” you to do things, but doesn’t like those same jokes about himself.
  • He has a double standard about sexual behavior. Women have to be controlled, but men can’t control themselves.
  • He expects to be appreciated as provider and protector, and you show that appreciation by obedience and supportive actions, not by having your own opinions, contributions and goals.
  • He never apologizes or admits being wrong. He gaslights or blames you for any disagreement.

Most of the ex-Mormon women I’ve talked to say that you should avoid Mormon men altogether, and that ex-Mormon men are just as bad. They think never-Mormon men are a better bet if you want to be treated like an equal, but you still have to be on the lookout. Since people often misrepresent themselves in dating, women know to watch for things like how men interact with or talk about:

  • female servers
  • female employees
  • women in positions of authority
  • female contractors or mechanics
  • their mothers
  • ex-wives or ex-girlfriends (“She was crazy” isn’t hitting the way men hope it will)
  • women who disagree with them or tell them no
  • women he finds unattractive
  • older women

It’s easy for a man to claim he’s a feminist or that he sees women as equal, but the test of that is watching how he really sees them. He can say “my wife doesn’t work for me, obey me or belong to me. She’s my partner. We make decisions together.” The real test is when he doesn’t get his way. Does he still behave like they are equals or does he revert to domineering behavior or childish tantrums?

I have certainly been fortunate in my choice, but many have not, and boy oh boy did I dodge a bunch of bullets at BYU. The majority of Mormon men I dated were not going to be good partners for me. The idea that any two people can make it work (Pres. Kimball said this) is pure tosh. Why should we make it work with someone who thinks we are on par with the family pet, if the family pet could bear children and do dishes?

Beige Flags (!)

My daughter who is Gen Z also explained to me that in addition to Red Flags and Green Flags, there are Beige Flags. These are things that are quirky habits that raise questions but aren’t deal breakers. Here are some examples:

  • Eating the same meal every single day
  • Setting phone alarms for unusual numbers like 6:27 instead of 6:30
  • Leaving half empty cans or bottles everywhere
  • Refusing to follow GPS instructions because they think they know better
  • Having a dating profile that is based on generic phrases like “I love to travel” or “fluent in sarcasm” revealing little about the person
  • Slipping into random accents when excited or ranting
  • Never closing things completely, leaving food containers and cabinets slightly open

I mean, a lot of these sound like OCD to me, but who knows. It’s probably not serial killer behavior, but it’s a little off, right? Whatever you can say about Gen Z, they are certainly full of interesting insights about the human condition. The amount of crap we Gen Xers put up with is kind of crazy when you think about it.

Do these red flags in dating apply to the church, and if so, does that explain the exodus of Gen Z women? Possibly. On the one hand, I have higher expectations for a life partner than I do for any organization to which I belong. I also have higher expectations of people my own age or younger than I do for those who are from older generations. When I meet someone who is sexist or racist, I certainly feel differently about it if they are Boomers or older than I do if they are in their twenties. I generally assume young people should know better. But that doesn’t mean someone gets a pass for their bad behaviors either. It just means I expected them to have bad views.

  • If you have sons, how have you raised them to see women as equals?
  • Have you experienced any of these red flags in others or even yourself?
  • Do you think Mormon men are better, worse or the same as non-Mormon men when it comes to dating red flags? Does this vary by generation? How much does family influence this?
  • What red flags have you looked for in dating? What about in friendships or when you just meet a new person?
  • Have you seen beige flags? What were they? Are there any uniquely Mormon beige flags you can think of?

Discuss.