In the larger Christian world, and to a lesser extent even in the LDS Church, prayer serves many purposes, including confession, thanksgiving, petition, worship, pleading for forgiveness, asking for strength, searching for purpose or direction, pondering an important life decision, glorifying God, begging for a miracle, searching for lost keys, and so forth. But in the LDS Church, special importance is placed on prayer as a truth device. You are all familiar with Moroni’s Promise at Moroni 10:3-5 and the Prayer Response algorithm outlined at D&C 9:8-9, which together are used by missionaries and by youth leaders trying to instill an LDS testimony in converts and youth. Let’s talk about prayer responses and false positives.
It’s More of a Problem Than You Think
First let’s talk about Covid tests, which have generated a lot of the current discussion of “false positives” lately, then get back to prayer. It’s easy to think of false positives as a minor problem, as a little bit of noise associated with a generally reliable Covid test. PCR tests are seen as the gold standard for testing, but still present a significant risk of generating false positives. Go read this short discussion in a published paper to confirm this is a real problem. A “false positive” is a positive test result for a person who does not (objectively) have Covid. A “false negative” is a negative test result for a person who does, in fact, have Covid, whether asymptomatic or not. “True positive” and “true negative” are, I think, self-explanatory.
Here’s the problem: In a low-incidence population, a positive test result applied to a large population (say as a screening test applied generally rather than a diagnostic test applied to a patient who is already symptomatic) may be very misleading. A test with only 1% false positives can nevertheless mean that a single person who tests positive has only a 50% chance (or less) of actually having Covid. Yes, I have had personal experience with this recently (a positive test, followed by three negative tests within three days, all from reliable testing outfits), which led me to investigate.
The statistics are straightforward if counterintuitive, and medical people, as well as everyone else, are largely unaware of the results. Take a simple example: a screening test applied to 1000 individuals, with a 1% incidence rate in that population and a test that gives only 1% false positive results (which would be a very good real-world test). Let’s assume no false negatives. So we get: 0 false negatives, 10 true positives (the 1% who have Covid), 9.9 false positives (1% of the 990 who don’t have Covid) round up to 10, and 980.1 true negatives (round down to 980). Which means 20 people tested positive, 10 of whom have Covid and 10 of whom don’t. If you test positive, there is a 50% chance you have Covid and a 50% chance you don’t. But screening procedures pretty much assume a 100% accuracy for a positive result. But the math is simple and doesn’t lie. Repeat the same analysis with a 1% incidence rate and a 97% accurate test (only 3% false positives), and a positive test gives only a 1 in 4 chance you actually have Covid. These results are terribly relevant for an asymptomatic person who tests positive under a screening regime. Instead of “oh my, I have Covid,” the proper response is “maybe I have it, maybe I don’t.”
There are real-world consequences: people who don’t have Covid but (because of a false positive with no immediate way of proving it wrong) can’t get on a flight, aren’t allowed across a border crossing, have surgery delayed, are forced to miss work for a week or two, avoid contact with family members or maybe with everyone for a week or two, and so forth. Some otherwise healthy and asymptomatic people may undergo serious anti-viral or anti-Covid medication regimes as a result of a false positive.
Let’s Get Back to Prayer Responses
Is there a false positive problem with prayer? It’s a little tougher to set up helpful examples because the mechanism of prayer is rather opaque, but let’s try, starting with a simple scenario. Someone is troubled by a serious harm they inflicted and at some point prays for forgiveness. A “false negative” would be where the Prayee thinks they get no answer when, in fact, God or His angels are attempting to metaphorically whisper into his ear, “You are forgiven.” Perhaps the Prayee is hardhearted. Perhaps he just can’t bring himself to even acknowledge the possibility of forgiveness before he first endures a good deal more suffering and anguish. A “false positive” would be when God or His angels have given no reply or have said, “No, you must suffer first, then maybe be forgiven later,” but the Prayee mistakenly has a sense of being forgiven. If you have a general sense that sometimes God answers prayer and sometimes He doesn’t, and that we fallible and easily misled humans sometimes hear God’s reply and sometimes we don’t — then I think you must acknowledge this scenario where there are false negatives (and people who suffer needlessly when God was trying to communicate His forgiveness) and false positives (where people mistakenly let themselves off the hook despite God’s ongoing anger, or at least irritation, with their prior actions and incomplete repentance).
That scenario seems quite plausible, given that in entirely secular scenarios there are people who are far too demanding of themselves, thinking they have done wrong when they haven’t and being unwilling to forgive themselves for small infractions. And then there are people who never find themselves at fault or who too-rapidly forgive their own infractions and transgressions, however serious. Given these human predilections, it’s hard to see how a “please forgive me, God” prayer would not be subject to the same difficulties and have false negatives and false positives.
What About “Is the Church True?”
The set up is trickier if we look at the Mormon employment of prayer as a truth device. Using the standard if oversimplified Mormon formulation, the questions “Is the Book of Mormon true?” or “Did Joseph Smith truly see God in 1820?” or the simpler “Is the Church true?” are either objectively true or objectively false. If true, there are false negatives but no false positives; if angels are whispering “Yes, indeed” to every prayer query, then there are no false positives. If false, then there are false positives (people incorrectly thinking God has answered their prayer in the affirmative) but no false negatives. This isn’t like a Covid test, where there is an underlying condition that may or may not be present. The “always true” scenario is more like one of those audiology tests where you try to hear the beep at various frequencies. There’s always a beep. Some people can hear it, others can’t. The “always false” scenario is more like seeing figures or faces in the clouds. There aren’t any really any images placed in the clouds. But some people nevertheless detect them (projection?) while other people just see clouds.
Always True. In the first scenario, if you assume that the Church is true and there are no false positives, every positive response, even a questionable one, is a true positive. The challenge is to explain false negatives. The usual explanations (for all those people who can’t get a positive reply when using the standard Mormon prayer-as-a-truth-device approach) is they are hardhearted, sinful, not asking with sincere intent, and so forth. In simpler terms, if you don’t get a “Yes, it’s true” response, then there is something seriously wrong with you. It’s not hard to see that this leads to an elitist or Pharisee-like perspective among those who get a “Yes” regarding those who can’t get a “Yes” (or who get a “Yes” but stubbornly refuse to admit it).
Always False. In the second scenario, if you assume the Church is simply not true at all or that the issue is so complex or nuanced or poorly formulated that even God can’t properly give a “Yes” response, then there are no false negatives. If there is no God, then there is no response at all. If God just doesn’t think you deserve a reply, or flat out says “No,” then false negatives aren’t the problem; false positives are. How would someone get a “Yes” if there is no God? How would someone get a “Yes” if God declines to answer or if God or His angels metaphorically whispers, “No, not really”? That’s really a psychological inquiry, not a religious or epistemological inquiry. But it’s not hard to accept the idea that people often fool themselves about what’s out there in the world and about what’s going on inside their head.
For adult “investigators” I suppose wishful thinking would be at the top of the menu of possibilities for a false positive under the “always false” scenario. For those raised in the Church, I think a discussion of indoctrination is what’s needed. We generally give ourselves and our fellow humans far too much credit when it comes to resisting false or misleading claims in propaganda, in advertising, and the like. Most Russians think that Russia is truly somehow threatened by Ukraine and Russia’s attack on Ukraine is fully justified. Most Republicans think Trump actually somehow won the 2020 election and that some nefarious scheme somehow resulted in a miscount of millions of votes. So it’s no surprise that churches, like all of them, manage to persuade most or many of those born into and raised in that church that its particular truth claims (however established or verified) are valid. False positives are no mystery.
Conclusion
So maybe we need to push back a little on prayer as a truth device. Maybe we need to be a little more skeptical about “answers to prayers.” There is a pragmatic and worldly bent with Mormonism that often counsels against prayer and the like, instead just rolling up ones’ sleeves and doing something to solve the problem or accomplish the task at hand. This is reflected, perhaps, in the counsel to “study it out in your mind” before using prayer as a truth device. Maybe we need more study and less prayer. Maybe we need more sleeve-rolling and less petitionary prayer.
What do you think?
- Do you have a good “false positive” prayer story?
- Do you have a good “false negative” prayer story?
- Has a Mormon missionary ever told an investigator that their positive prayer response, however unusual or misguided, was perhaps not valid?
- Has a Mormon bishop ever told a member that their negative prayer response showed anything other than personal unworthiness, sin, stubbornness, insincerity, or some similar personal fault?
- Do you have a different approach to the problem of prayer responses and how Mormons (or any other group) explain them, whether positive or negative?
Dave B.: Great post, however, I need to push back a bit on the notion that medical professionals remain largely unaware of the profound implications of false positives and false negatives. Your description encompasses the well-documented concept of a “confusion matrix,” a subject well-covered in medical school. Because different tests of, say, the same underlying medical condition exhibit different profiles of false positives and false negatives, doctors will often order up different, but overlapping tests that exhibit different sensitivities to return “false” results. The same reasoning holds for repeating tests over time.
Further to your original point: doctors, as well as those seeking divine guidance, do well to rely on multiple data points.
Have you ever wanted something to be true so badly that you talked yourself into it? If you’re an LDS teenager seeking the truth and you see that everyone around you “knows” x is true, don’t you want to fit in by “knowing” too? And so you go pray about it, wanting a specific outcome. And sure enough, you get the answer you wanted. Likewise, a troubled investigator whose life is in disarray wants the missionaries to be telling the truth because this could be an answer to life’s difficulties.
Contrast that to someone who is truly neutral about truth. Someone who doesn’t care whether something is true or not. They just want to know. Church members (like most of society) are so full of confirmation bias that they simply can’t assess the truthfulness of LDS truth claims. That’s most of us. As for investigators…there’s a reason the Church is barely growing outside of Africa.
This is a deep post.
I can still recall my personal experience wanting to know if the BoM and Church were true. Nothing special happened. While I didn’t expect what JS claimed to see, I expected something. I really got nothing. What follows was my mind (thinking it was God at the time) telling me that I already know it’s true and I don’t need to ask anymore. I’ve since learned from discussions with others this was a common experience.
Well my entire life experience growing up in the Mormon heartland was that I never seriously doubted to begin with because I didn’t know anybody really who didn’t believe. And those few were who didn’t believe were fringe folk that were easily othered in the 1980-1990 world I inhabited.
I now look at that experience as nothing more than confirmation bias to belong to my tribe. And that’s ok; I love my tribe, even if I no longer view my prayer for truth the way I once did. (similar to Josh h’s comment above).
“Has a Mormon missionary ever told an investigator that their positive prayer response, however unusual or misguided, was perhaps not valid?” My mission in Hong Kong led me to teach a lot of immigrants, mostly from the Philippines. My experience is that these people are quite visionary. It was very very common for them to have dreams about God, the missionaries, the Book of Mormon, etc. I wasn’t sure what to think, really, but usually these dreams led them into the church so my 20 year-old self allowed them their experience without too serious of reflection.
“Do you have a good “false positive” prayer story?” I could probably write a book about false positive experiences on my mission. And I doubt I’m alone.
“Has a Mormon bishop ever told a member that their negative prayer response showed anything other than personal unworthiness, sin, stubbornness, insincerity, or some similar personal fault?” I think this was the MO until perhaps 2-3 years ago. Now there are too many members with a negative prayer response to denigrate effectively.
“Do you have a different approach to the problem of prayer responses and how Mormons (or any other group) explain them, whether positive or negative?” I try to provide personal examples that don’t fit their mold. Facts without emotions. Food for thought. Just to remind them that a vending machine approach to God really isn’t fair.
Your post misses a whole bunch of possibilities. How about blessings of healing when the person dies anyway, or praying for rain that doesn’t come, or any of thousands of other kinds of prayer.
But so the sake of going with the original post, I will just stick to the subject of lis the church true” with examples in my own life. I prayed and prayed about the BOM. No answer. So, I switched to was JS a prophet? No answer. I finally got fed up with God and demanded an answer to was JS a prophet. And very clearly the words came to my mind of, “It doesn’t matter.” Well, after I tried to argue that it does matter and got no explanation, I mentioned to a very wise bishop. He stopped and first said, how could it not matter? Then after thinking it over, said, no. If you don’t like JS, then it is more important that you accept Jesus than that you do JS. So, the answer is that JS doesn’t matter, only Christ.
I stayed in the church at that point, because that was my connection to Christ. But years later, I decided that the church’s perfectionism was repeating the emotional abuse I got as a child and that the purity culture was still sending me messages about how damaged I was by the sexual abuse. I decided that I had to protect myself even if it meant that I lost a community connection to Christ.
Interesting post, I’ve never thought about prayer in this way. On a sort-of (maybe??) related note, I just finished a book about evolution of humans. The book explained in stark terms that humans are like all animals and how we will likely go extinct quickly in an evolution timeframe. In fact we may already be in a state of extinction debt – irreversibly headed there but unaware. It was also interesting to hear that humans interbred with Neanderthals. So much for a literal interpretation of scripture or the existence of a benevolent God or that we were created in His image.
I guess my point is that applying logic to spiritual matters is counterproductive in my opinion. If there is a God, I believe His ways have to transcend our minds and if there are errors it’s because our spirits aren’t mature enough to hear the correct message. That’s why it’s important for the spiritually minded to be vigilant against hubris and overconfidence: it seems that prideful spiritual leaders are probably more subject to misinterpreting spiritual answers – ie false negatives or false positives – than the little guy looking for lost keys. Certainly the impacts are greater.
If you has the humility to ask yourself, does this answer make sense given the larger context of Christ’s teachings, you may be ok. Or like one of the other comments said, maybe we need to apply another statistically independent test to verify the real answer.
Sometime ago I had a CES employee claim that the scientific and historical methods were “imperfect” while revelation was a “perfect method” of discovering Truth. I nearly choked. His hubris made it impossible for him to appreciate the struggles of others or the wrinkles in our own doctrinal development and history.
The religious will likely always accept the possibility that revelation and inspiration occur. But I agree with those who suggest that epistemological humility is warranted. A friend, a Jewish Rabbi, suggested that valid religious experiences occur with great thought, time and scrutiny. He actually makes potential converts to Judaism wait for several years, testing their situation, before conversion. I wish we would give potential LDS converts time to grow into our faith community, to gain experience and wisdom.
Interesting post. I certainly practice prayer but more often than note it is more like – “Lord this is what I think I should do. I’s sure appreciate some help.” On some rare occasions I have felt that help and others, I didn’t have a clue. As a bishop I had people tell me that the Lord had told them such and such and I had to say, “Nope he didn’t, that was you, don’t blame the Lord for a bad decision you are about to make.” As a MP I had some profound experiences in placing missionaries with certain companions as I prayed about transfers. They were very rare which made them all the more stunning. So in summary I’m pray and go do 95% and 5% wow, where did that come from guy. No question that there is a lot of confirmation bias in the practice of prayer with some LDS and beyond.
For me, God is not out there stirring the pot. Man (and Woman) are on earth to make our own decisions, solve our own problems, find our own keys. Asking God to solve our issues is mostly futile.
One function of prayer that was not mentioned is meditative. A time out from life, if you wish. A time to review the day’s accomplishments. Think about priorities. Review blessings. Or maybe just relax and clear your head. Step away from the problems in your path.
7 or 8 years ago, I was frustrated with God regarding prayer. The whole “Ask, and it shall be given you” idea wasn’t working. I had been fasting, I went to the temple, I felt like I was getting close to the “4th watch”, but no recognizable answer to my prayer was coming. I decided I wasn’t going to ask for anything for the foreseeable future in any prayer I offered, just express gratitude and maybe share with God what I had done that day, that I loved Him and that I loved my family. I figured that since the things I asked for in general, and the specific thing I wanted divine guidance for was not coming, I must not know how to ask or what to ask for.
I remember there were some instances in public settings (ward party, ward councils, etc.) where I was asked to pray, but still no asking was done. This went on for several months. Since this experience, I am more careful about what I ask for. My asking turned more into what Dave described “Lord this is what I think I should do. I’d sure appreciate some help.”
Some talks about prayer and some scriptural references indicate that we should pray about nearly everything. I don’t necessarily want to disagree with this idea, but I think God wants us to get busy doing stuff on our own and use our own best judgment. One of my favorite phrases in the D&C is “it mattereth not unto me”. It is used a few times and the Lord is basically saying that He doesn’t care how a particular job is done, just that it gets done. It’s His nice way of saying, you don’t need to ask Me that, just get it done using your own best judgment.
`z’A family member was in the temple last month and someone prayed for rain. When they left the temple, it was raining. Voila, You might ask yourself, does it frequently rain there in June but that wouldn’t be faithful.
Hello Everyone,
I’ve been following this forum (which I absolutely love and respect) since late 2019, when I began researching the murder of my beloved uncle, Charles Vallow. He was a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and had been married to my now, former Aunt, Lori Vallow-Daybell for 14 years. So, my uncle was “killed” on July 11, 2019 but my family & I didn’t find out until the next day (July 12, 2019) when Lori allegedly text my cousins (Charles’ sons from a previous marriage) to let them know their dad had “died”. This was the day my life would forever change.
My parents, Kay & Larry Woodcock, were desperately trying to track Lori down so they could ensure that Lori’s two children, Tylee (who was 16)
& JJ (who was 7 & on the Autism Spectrum) were safe. It turned out that they were NOT SAFE. In fact, they were BOTH FOUND DECEASED ON CHAD DAYBELL’S PROPERTY & were UNEARTHED FROM THE PROPERTY ON JUNE 09, 2020.
I’ll reference an article from this forum “When Good Mormons Go Bad”. I believe that’s the title name but I could be off a bit.
I could write a book jam packed with factual details up and to this point but I would really appreciate any feedback regarding the type of “prayer” ALLEGEDLY performed by other ACTIVE members (and held/hold Temple Recommends) of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have been asking and have even begged for active members of the church to help me understand this better. I have researched scriptures, doctrines, multiple mortal probations, energy healing, and other controversial issues for three straight years now. I literally spend every single day of my life studying and researching the “Mormon” culture, “Mormon Speak” or “LDS Talk”.
I feel like I have been extremely fair and humble in my approach when asking Latter-day Saints what their thoughts are regarding this entire situation or their thoughts about the use of “prayer” by this group of “like-minded people”. I care about all people and love everyone on this planet. But I am just a little more careful and respectful to all members of the Church. I am seeking the thoughts, insight, and advice, that everyone has to offer. Anonymity is held in the highest regard as well.
***Anyone who doesn’t have knowledge about these cases can google “Chad Daybell and/or Lori Vallow Daybell” and you’ll find plenty of information about the duo***
Justicefortyleeandjj JusticeForTammyDaybell JusticeForCharlesVallow JusticeforJosephRyan justiceforbrandonboudreaux and as always #LoveAlwaysWins
Sincerely,
Kresha Kay Easton
(Thank you for being such a balanced and informative forum. I absolutely admire and respect everyone here who contributes to this community).
@Kresha Kay Easton
Your comment is powerful.
I cannot even imagine what you and your family members have gone through. Are going through. Such a difficult ordeal.
You have a constructive approach, and an amazing attitude. I wish you well, and sincerely hope you find helpful answers.
Virtual hugs to you ♥️
Revelation is personal – don’t make us choose between unconditional love and the “covenant path.”