From Billy Joel’s 1977 song “Only The Good Die Young”
I’d rather laugh with the sinners
Only the Good Die Young, Billy Joel
Than cry with the saints
The sinners are much more fun
As most of you who regularly read my posts know, I enjoy humor, with some of it being quite biting or sarcastic. I have more fun with my non-member friends than with the few friends I have at church. If the Celestial Kingdom is anything like church here on earth, no thank you. I could have more fun sitting in my basement in sweat pants and clogs playing video games than going to church on Sunday. What happened to “and men are, that they might have joy”?
My mouth has gotten me in trouble too many times to count as a teenager growing up, and still does from time to time with my wife. There is so much more to me, but for you readers, you only get a small glimpse of me through me writing. So you might draw conclusions about me that based solely on my writing would be totally wrong.
I was reminded of this while listening to a podcast by Penn Jillette of Penn and Teller fame talk about the recent death of Bob Saget. Penn knew Bob, and understood that his raunchy adult humor was just jokes to get a laugh, and in no way related to what a genuine and kind man Bob was. Therefore the jokes did not bother him (and some of them were truly revolting) [1]. Penn said this was not the case of other comedians who he did not know well, like Andrew Dice Clay. Penn said he did not know him, so could not be sure his raunchy misogynistic humor did not reflect his true feelings for women, thus he did not enjoy his act.
This got me to thinking if some (or a lot) of you do not enjoy my posts because you do not know me, and cannot be sure I’m not the asshat I appear to be in some of my more sarcastic posts. I’m sure members of my ward that only know me as their former Bishop would be surprised by what I write here, just like lots of Bob Saget’s fans were surprised the first time they heard him tell a dirty joke. But that didn’t change who he was, just like my writing does not change who I am. I like to make people laugh, to think, and to maybe squirm a little when I teach a lesson on Sunday. I try to do the same here.
I write mostly for myself, and if any of you enjoy it, so be it. I can’t be this sarcastic in Church, so I tone it down. But here I can write to have fun. So sit back and laugh with the sinners!
[1] I was going to link to some of those jokes but thought better of it, as I did not want to offend the sensibilities of some of my more tender readers.
Wheat & Tares 
Speaking of “Only the Good Die Young,” I remember reading somewhere that that song being played at BYU led to BYU putting a stop to big rock/pop acts playing on campus. I might be wrong, I might be crazy.
As far as humor goes, it’s nice to not have any rules. And those of us who are post-TBM need to make sure that we can make fun of ourselves like we make fun of Mormons because we too have some real quirks.
It’s crocs, Bill, not clogs. Sheesh.
Tim, you may be right. And it just may be Glenn L. pace you’re looking for, as he wrote a Billy Joel rebuttal after seeing the Piano Man at the Y in the 80s.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1989/04/crying-with-the-saints?lang=eng
“I’d rather laugh with the sinners Than cry with the saints The sinners are much more fun”
I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately. I have some close family members who recently went from very active members to leaving the church and making some dramatic lifestyle changes. (Part of the reason I joined this blog is to better understand them and their perspectives). They are having fun indulging in any and all vices that they previously abstained from (often times just for the sake of trying it out). They report that they are very much enjoying themselves, and I believe them! Looks like they are having a lot of fun.
This has sparked the conversations between my spouse and me about what our lives hypothetically would look like if we left the church- and the answer of course is, “We don’t know.” At this point neither of us are highly tempted by the vices we are currently missing out on- we feel like the standards and lifestyle we’ve chosen have led to good outcomes for us and our kids (regardless of any spiritual consequences… if there are or aren’t any). But who knows if our minds would change.
We mostly think that we just wouldn’t attend church on Sundays, and our tithing would look different (and if I’m honest would probably decrease).
The trajectory of our lives has been pretty good and we like this path that we’re on. We’d like to keep the good parts of it whether we’re members or not. But getting rid of any pressure to do certain things/act in certain ways/fulfill certain roles and obligations would be nice. (We are doing some of that while remaining in the church). I’m grateful for the truths and overall good and healthy lifestyle I’ve inherited/chosen from the church, but there certainly are times when I wish I hadn’t been born into such a high-demand religion. Since we’re allowed to make jokes here….Maybe being Catholic might suit me nicely…
Strange and forbidden paths indeed.
Men are that they might hand joy. But joy is different than momentary pleasure that causes negative long-term consequences.
True joy is felt only after a day of hard work to maintain self-sufficiency. True joy comes only from working hard to perform service or provide for one’s family. True joy comes from making the moral choice.
True joy cannot come from mindlessly perusing the local honky tonks, Dairy Queens, and 7-Elevens. True joy does not come from stuffing one’s face with Irish nachos and German beer.
That is the problem today. Far too many have not realized that there are consequences to actions. The evidence of this failure is the skyrocketing rates of crime, substance abuse, and disease. That is not joy.
I was at that concert and enjoyed every song. And yes it was the last rock concert at BYU.
I think it’s “have joy” not “hand joy” but I do agree that what is meant by joy deserves a deep discussion. Nevertheless, I don’t think this is what this post is about and I do agree that we could certainly lighten up a bit (maybe a lot) more in church. We appear to have a God that weeps. I sure hope we have a God with a sense of humor too, one who even laughs, or else I am in serious trouble.
Interesting Marriott history…….always follow the money……I suspect the concerts started to produce are a revenue…once ended ( there was 1 more concert after billy joel), the church had to find new revenue. Or ask alumni for more donations, on top of tithing.
School president Ernest L. Wilkinson (who would retire in 1971) decided there would be a contest to name the new arena. First prize, for a “name that most accurately describes the building and its various functions,” was set at $100.
But before the contest got rolling, a generous donation, well in excess of $1 million, came from J. Willard Marriott, and the name controversy was over. Marriott, albeit advertently, had won the contest.
The first official name was the Marriott Activities Center. But when abbreviators — newspaper headline writers especially — shortened that to “MAC,” and, soon enough, to “Big Mac,” the arena’s middle name was quickly and officially deleted. It was one thing to be nicknamed after a double-burger with special sauce on a sesame seed bun; it was yet another that Marriott’s food service empire was in active competition with McDonald’s.
@ aporetic1, a friend of mine once told me he’d done an experiment before leaving the church—six months of full activity/doing every right and six months of no church whatsoever. His aim was specifically to find out if church was helping or hurting his depression but I thought you might find his results interesting. He said the depression didn’t change either way and that, in fact, the only difference he noticed in his life was that when he wasn’t going to church he had more time and more money.
Mormon humor is an interesting thing.
There’s the stuff that comes over the GC pulpit (meant to set the speed limit for the church at large, I think) which is usually quite vanilla. The bar to evoke a laugh in an otherwise dry meeting is low. At best, the jokes serve to humanize the speakers (like Uchtdorf needling his own obsession with aviation or Monson wiggling his ears). At worst, they amount to “isn’t our brand of sexism cute?” Ziff, you ever done a Best Of GC Humor?
Then there’s the humor that makes it into church media and publications like the cartoons in the now-defunct New Era or the comic relief in a JS Memorial Prestige Film. Again, very tame. The common thread seems to be the fear of loud laughter and otherwise being too flippant with sacred things.
Then there’s the run of Mormon comedies from the early 2000s like the Singles Ward et al which I, as a kid, really enjoyed but older adults mostly found stupid and irreverent. These weren’t institutionally made so there was more wiggle-room for actual humor, but the main joke was, “Yep, we’re weird.”
And then there’s the recent train-wreck of an attempt at humor that was FAIR’s “This is the Show” that differed from other Mormon humor in that, instead of being self-deprecating, resorted to mean-spirited mockery of critics of the church (and the legitimate grievances of victims of polygamy). Also its acronym is the bawdiest joke the church ever unwittingly funded.
“True joy cannot come from mindlessly perusing the local honky tonks, Dairy Queens, and 7-Elevens. True joy does not come from stuffing one’s face with Irish nachos and German beer.”
Actually it does, and if we’d just admit this the average Mormon wouldn’t be so miserable. They think there’s something wrong with them, when the truth is it’s very very difficult to be happy without German beer. Sometimes it’s just impossible.
My husband and I recently had a similar conversation as aporetic1, with pretty similar results. However, I did tell my much loved, cautious, conservative, traditional Mormon husband that we are going to start having more fun. Even if I have to drag him kicking and screaming. However, to make it easier for him, I have made it a written part of our goals. LOL
We’re all sinners. And we’re all saints. So feel free to laugh or cry as needed no matter what company you’re in.
I think whoever wrote Ecclesiastes (chapter 3 pasted below for those interested) was probably onto something with the whole “time and season” for everything, right? Yes, service and hard work is good. And yes, so is fun and play and laughter.
One thing I wonder if others think is – look at the Q15 when they speak. Does any of them look all that happy or joyful (despite claiming that they are)? I mean, who wants to be Bednar when they grow up? He looks full on miserable and so does his wife. Shouldn’t he be like the happiest person alive cause he’s so darn righteous? I’d say the same for many of them. With few exceptions, they aren’t people I’d enjoy spending time with or being. So that sorta makes one wonder about Church claims regarding what really makes us happy.
***
Ecclesiastes 3 – which is, btw, am absolutely fascinating book that’s quite Eastern (Buddhist) in many ways:
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
In my experience, eating nachos, drinking beer, and patronizing establishments by themselves are really not fun. What makes them fun is that these activities easily lend themselves to a group dynamic. That’s where the fun is at: eating, drinking, and shopping with friends.
Contrast this to the church experience: you can’t sit with your spouse in the temple, you can’t have a discussion in sacrament meeting, and all the extracurricular stuff was de-funded decades ago.
Pass the beer.
FWIW, I love your posts bishop bill and feel they’ve given me a little glimpse into your lighthearted, kind, friendly soul. We may never meet but you are a kindred spirit.
Chadwick, if you are ever in Sothern California, give me a holler and we’ll go to lunch, or I’ll take you surfing!
My TBM parents went on a bus tour of Europe years ago. They were the only LDS on their tour. One night in Italy they were in a restaurant with their group sitting around a big long table. My parents were the only ones not drinking, but there was laughing and singing and they said it was so fun. Then my father noticed another tour group sitting next to them that was very quite, and nobody was drinking wine. He said they did not look like they were having much fun. So as they got up to leave he went over and asked where they were from. He was not surprised when they said Utah! That night my very TBM parents laughed with the sinners!
Regarding the claim that we don’t know you simply by reading what you write, what of these Bible verses?
Matt 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Matt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he
From OP: “So you might draw conclusions about me that based solely on my writing would be totally wrong.”
All of us are multi-faceted people and nearly impossible to know very well without living together 24×7. But from your writing, we should all be able to see at least one facet of you. Some of us like it, others don’t. A question for you to consider might be, “Does God like it?”
From OP: ” just like my writing does not change who I am”.
I agree with this. I would say your writing *reveals* who you are.
Bishop Bill, if you are fishing for compliments, you hooked me with your Billy Joel – branded lure. I for one, have always enjoyed your posts as I’ve dived in and out of engagement with w&t. As far as Mormon humor goes….I guess Napoleon Dynamite was funny in a cringy, campy sort of way. The problem with group-specific humor is that members of that group have to a) have the self awareness to realize that all of the norms, beliefs and values of said group are worthy of challenging or ridiculing, or at least poking fun at in some way and b) not fear retribution for saying any of those things out loud. That does not happen in Mormondom. I always thought Pres. Hinckley had a healthy, self-aware, kindly grandfatherly sense of humor about him. Monson was a great story teller (before his mind started to go) with great comedic timing, I thought. He sometimes would throw in a Jack Benny-esque look to the side and pause before the punchline, if I remember right. The problem is, the congregation would laugh so hard in relation to the joke (as in “oh my gosh, our Dear Leader is the funniest man alive!”), it ended up being really cringe-worthy. I’ve know some really funny Mormons over the years. When I was growing up, we had home teacher (he was the “junior” companion, though probably in his sixties) who would derail the lesson with constant wisecracks while adjusting his tie like Rodney Dangerfield (ok, maybe I only wish that last part were true). But in terms of Mormon-specific humor, or humor within church meetings …. Not so much
Robert Kirby has made a living out of satirizing Mormon culture. There is much to laugh at.
https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=54003962&itype=CMSID
I think ya’all are missing the fact that the greatest humorist contributor of them all is none other than the erudite John Charity Spring. His oft-used cutting-edge references to honky tonks, Dairy Queens, and Seven Elevens as dens of iniquity absolutely cracks me up. The only thing he’s missing is not including Professor Harold Hill’s tirade against pool in “Ya Got Trouble” from The Music Man. I imagine the man or woman who writes under the name JCS smiles every time he dupes someone into remarking about his diatribes or giving them a thumbs down. All I know is that where I thought the concern in popular music over the last 30 years was with Gangsta Rap or Death Metal, it was actually with Bon Jovi. How dare he tell people to keep livin’ on a prayer. Long live John Charity Spring!!!
Only the Good Die Young has long been one of my favorite Billy Joel songs. I’m also a big fan of Italian Restaurant. I had heard that story about a bunch of stick-up-their-butt whiners in charge cancelling concerts as a result, and I just rolled my eyes, but I’m not rolling them so much anymore. They’ve inherited the Church.
When Billy Joel sings about the saints, though (very alliterative), I have to assume he’s thinking of the Catholic Saints like Agatha of Sicily who cut off her breasts which definitely doesn’t sound like fun. Elisa’s right about there being a season for everything.
I have to say, though, that I’ve had a lot of fun with non-LDS and LDS friends. We had dinner with some former ward friends on the weekend and we had everyone doubled over in laughter over some old travel stories of ours. We have had fun with other couples playing games, or going out to dinner. The prohibition on “loud laughter” is best ignored. I think the real issue is that it’s hard to make friends as an adult. You have to find ways to make it happen, and life doesn’t make it easy. Most of my friends are people from decades ago, people with some kind of shared history we can reminisce and laugh about. The other problems with hanging out with *some* Mormons is that there is sometimes a performative element going on. They feel they have to pretend to be perfect or pious or something like that, and they can’t just relax and enjoy themselves and others. And lastly, as a friend pointed out regarding some Mormon restriction (I think it was garments), God wouldn’t want our religion to be an Opus Dei hair shirt, an unpleasant thing that is designed to remind us of our wretchedness by inflicting constant lowgrade pain and discomfort. But, boy howdy, are there some folks out there for whom that shiz is mother’s milk.
Such a great topic BB. It’s such a paradox to me that while I’ve been told all of life that true joy can only be found within the boundaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (for me over 60 years)….I don’t recall a single instance of feeling true, overwhelming joy – within the confines of “the Church”. But rather, almost in spite of it…..and being away from it. Curious indeed.
There is double entendre (recent post) in one of the comments here…and I feel like a sinner for laughing