It always surprises me when talking to very TBM friends when they say something very “non-TBM”. It seems even the most orthodox among us have some gripes with the Church. The idea for this post came from a non-religious discussion on a reddit thread where people listed things the didn’t like, but are almost universally agreed upon that they are good. Things like the sit-com “Friends” made the reddit list.
I was once talking to a very TBM friend of mine who had recently been released as a counselor in the Stake Presidency. We were talking about some aspect of church history which I don’t even remember what the exact subject was. I explained something to him about the subject, and he said “oh, that makes us sound like a cult!” He didn’t refute the fact, just that it was very cult like.
There have been many posts here at Wheat&Tares on the subject of “cafeteria Mormons“. Like that, this subject of orthodox members not liking or agreeing with some part of the church was never more manifest than this last year, when even the most faithful among us rejoiced at not having to go to church due to COVID. No more fighting to get the kids ready. How about very TBM members refusing to follow the prophets counsel on wearing a mask or getting a COVID vaccine?
I had a very TBM member tell me he didn’t like going to temple. He thought it was boring and inefficient, and yet the Temple experience is the pinnacle of our religion, and universally praised as the most spiritual place on earth. How may “good members” do you see siting in the foyer or in their car during the 2nd hour?
Of course we could just chalk this up to the “Church”, which has its faults due the foibles of man. But everyone loves the pure Gospel of Christ. But how do you separate them?
So what are some of the surprising things you’ve heard your orthodox friends say? How did you react when you heard them say those things?
Wheat & Tares 
Had a Bishop tell me I couldn’t get TR if I drank green tea (which I did/do). However, herbal tea with a caffeine pill dissolved in it was perfectly acceptable. This is known in the vernacular as Drinking the Kool-Aid, and it seems the higher one rises in our beloved institution the more one must drink. Joseph’s penchant for magic & hocuspocus has easily survived into our day, attracting some interesting personalities.
What I really don’t like is that we have so many meetings led by people with no training in how to run a meeting. As a result, hours upon hours are wasted in inefficient meetings.
I went from a bishopric to stake clerk and things only got worse. Stake presidency meetings take a good 15 minutes to get started to wait for the personal stories to get over. Then the meeting itself is unstructured and half full of tangents.
This carries over into high council and stake council meetings. Week after week goes by with things not getting done because the meetings are so inefficient and ineffective.
The church keeps saying that it wants people to be with their families in a home-centered experience. And yet, more and more meetings get scheduled to take people out of the home to accomplish very little. I really don’t like that.
My most TBM friend has had 3 rumblings.
#1 The church preaches family as the most important thing. Yet leadership callings and meetings frequently require her husband or herself to miss important family events.
She resents it. And feels guilty for resenting it.
#2 With hindsight, she realizes she internalized YW teachings as essentially: “Don’t tempt the boys.”
She simply resents it.
No guilt there. She recognizes it as problematic messaging.
#3 TLDR- Ecclesiastical leaders require us to forgive but perpetrators are not required to apologize. My friend was shamed for feeling angry when her child experienced bullying.
Long story: The bully’s mother was a YW advisor and vocally homophobic. The mom spread false rumors about a few youth right before camp. The damage was severe. As a direct result of camp, three YW are in on-going therapy for anxiety and depression. This is what happens when a teenager screams in your face that you’re an evil lesbian and therefore a horrible influence she & her younger sister aren’t allowed to be around, per her mom’s instructions.
Since the bully’s mother is the one responsible for instigating it all, the victims’ parents asked that she receive leadership training or be removed from serving in YW. Our unit’s ecclesiastical leader declined to do either. The victims’ families were reminded they are commanded to forgive and were instructed to do so. The bullying family was encouraged to apologize. Which counsel they ignored. There were zero consequences.
Good news: shortly thereafter our unit split, so the bullying family left.
Bad news: the bully’s homophobic, false-rumor-spreading mom was promoted to counselor in that unit’s YW presidency.
And my friend?
Felt guilty for being angry and unable to instantly forgive as her ecclesiastical leader instructed.
I told her she’s allowed to feel angry and it’s nothing to be ashamed of. That it would be convenient for our leaders if people could instantly turn feelings off… but it’s a process that takes time. If the Lord can accept our humanness and love us anyway, we can be patient with ourselves in allowing some grace and space to work through difficult feelings.
When the temple ceremony changed, especially with regards to women, I was really relieved. Talking with a TBM friend, I was surprised to hear her say, “Well, I never really did believe they were doing the temple ceremony correctly before anyway. I never believed that “
p: glad to see another green tea fan. Dr instructed me to drink it due to unusually high C-reactive protein levels. I do decaf. Have not & will never share this with ecclesiastical leaders because it’s personal medical info and none of their business. I don’t need a person to mediate my relationship with God. All TR qs are superseded with the final one: do I consider myself worthy to attend? That’s btw me and the Lord. The man sitting in front of me is simply a well-meaning bureaucrat checking boxes.
Rudi: a businessman SP announced his regular mtgs would be resolved within 45 minutes. I wish you could serve with someone like that.
Rudi is right. Ward council especially goes around and around the circle asking unprepared people to come up with saying just to say something.
My favorite example was always the things about scouting – especially the annual Friends of Scouting drive/shakedown. In the stake where I lived at the time, a member of the stake presidency was on the local scout council and so he gave each ward a specific quota of funds to come up with. Each year there was a method given, such as that every member is given a donation slip and MUST return it, even if they marked zero as their donation. I was a bishopric counselor at the time and heard the rest of the bishopric go off yearly about how stupid it was.
As Ward Music Director, I learned that the Bishopric from another Ward in the stake only allows music in the Sacrament service to be congregation hymns or specials by the primary. Where do they get such weird notions; and how do they get away with it? (the questions I posed to their Ward music director)
Things I hear numerous faithful TBMs complain about:
—doctrines like polygamy, sad heaven, priesthood and authority, racism and discrimination (how many groups can we keep offending before most members are affected?)
—tithing settlement (I don’t pay in kind with chickens or tomatoes, please can I just check a box somewhere?)
—reporting/doing home or visiting teaching, now ministering (to this point I have only had 1 of those quarterly interviews with a member of EQP while my wife has had well over 10 and she’s complained about every one as being pointless)
—cleaning the church building (don’t be last to get started, the toilets will be yours)
—boring lessons, meetings, firesides (we really know how to hype up something and then make it regrettable to have attended)
—youth fundraising (I just love giving more of my limited time and money to allow the youth to do fairly meaningless activities that most of them seem unexcited about)
—speaking or teaching (some do enjoy this but most are either afraid or not very good, and even most who do enjoy it shouldn’t be doing it)
The reason it surprises me that so many TBMs complain is that much of the above and countless other quirks/structures of our religion, are pushed as being necessary, wonderful, from God. TBMs are so obedient, do not voice enough protest, and trained to just endure.
Agree with the OP, the COVID shutdown really really changed things for member participation. It will likely change my little family’s perspective/involvement at church forever (combined with a number of issues we have always had with the church experience) in that weekly attendance will not be mandatory, callings will need to make sense to us to accept, and our promotion of certain doctrines will not be automatic.
I have no training in how to run a meeting, but I still don’t think I would try to drag things out as long as possible.
Would love to hear the orthodox defense of the following: Poelman 1984 talk, RMN 1990 first attempt to define Satanic victory, true origins of Family Proclamation, Come Follow Me pilot program starting in 2014 and having nothing to do with “inspiration” received by RMN for the pandemic.
The problem is we don’t understand the gospel but cling to false traditions instead. The comment about the Temple being the pinnacle of our religion is patently wrong. The pinnacle is having our calling and election made sure as was clearly taught by Joseph and even taught in general conference in the 1980 s. Yet now it isn’t even on the “approved list “ of gospel topics. As the official doctrine changes with celerity and we break the everlasting covenants and routinely change the ordinances we have become as Paul worried “tossed to and throw by every wind of doctrine”
Remember when Oaks stated that he was never really comfortable with the priesthood ban on blacks? His retroactive expression holds little value to me compared to an expression given before 1978.
Oaks provides a template for how many members deal with changes in the Church. They express relief and joy at the changes but they were completely silent before the change.
So let me just warn those of you who will some day express relief that the Church finally allows member civil gay marriage. When you express your happiness I’m going to ask you what you said about it before the official change.
I remember when the leaders announced 2-hour church. About all the orthodox believers I knew rejoiced.
Before we broke up with scouts, most people my age didn’t like scouts and were just waiting for the inevitable breakup.
Rejoicing over two-hour church.
Even with two-hour church, I think most people still don’t like gospel doctrine / Sunday school and would have preferred we just do EQ / RS.
Stake conference.
Genealogy.
Callings in primary / nursery.
Cleaning the church.
Reporting HT / VT / Ministering.
High council Sundays.
Getting guilt tripped to share the gospel / do missionary work.
I’ve heard lots of TBM women say they don’t like the temple.
The D&C.
As someone who is pretty observant, but with a somewhat contrarian personality, (and I am hoping that things change on LGBT issues, particularly marriage):
There are two things that drive me a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y bonkers:
(1) The dreary sameness of Sacrament Service talks. I complimented a husband and wife in my ward for their SS talks, the other week. I told them that their talks contained original thought that actually made me ponder the issues that they raised, and that was a wonderful thing.
and (2) the LDS leeriness of reading non-correlated stuff (or of reading at all, for that matter). When I quote them Joseph Smith in the D and C (read ye out of the best books), their uneasiness only increases.
DC 93 teaches that the glory of God is intelligence, but we have reduced ourselves to pablum.
Call me cranky. Call me elitist (my daughters do). That’s fine. When I had my missionary interviews, my Bishop and SP made sure I was familiar with scriptures. Now, all they do is provide a box of Kleenex.
“So let me just warn those of you who will some day express relief that the Church finally allows member civil gay marriage. When you express your happiness I’m going to ask you what you said about it before the official change.”
Word-up Josh H. There’s a fairly good chance they were handing out VOTE YES leaflets door-to-door Sacramento 2008. True shame is rare amongst us Mormons unless it involves porn & masturbation. The oppression & disenfranchisement of an entire category of innocent human beings? – nah, not so much. We are not a spiritually mature Church notwithstanding some beloved exceptions. Lowell Bennion comes immediately to mind. Raising that bar should be Goal #1 for leaders & teachers. Mormons are good people. They/we will respond.
“It always surprises me when talking to very TBM friends when they say something very ‘non-TBM’.”
Should it though? My experience is that mostly (emphasis on mostly) orthodox members are just as diverse as less orthodox ones.
I have a hard time thinking of examples from others, but even as an active, believing member, I can mention a couple of my own.
I used to be slightly turned off by the temple. It wasn’t because of the temple process and rituals themselves. I’d go to try to be taught and feel the Spirit, while largely going out of my way to make myself mostly unnoticeable to others. Yet, almost every time I went, a temple worker would point out something I or my spouse did that might detract from the sacred nature of the temple visit for someone else. Generally, thought I know they meant well, I failed to see how that was the case, and they did it often enough that I concluded it detracted from my own sacred experience. I was about to write the temple president a letter (though this problem went beyond one temple), but my last three or four temple experiences have been phenomenal. Perhaps they got the message in some way.
Another I struggle with slightly is the disparity between some active members when it comes to temporal and spiritual. There was one businessman in my hometown who ran a very successful factory. He raised some phenomenal kids (went on a date once with one of his daughters), became a bishop, a stake president, and later a mission president. He also taught a couple of university classes certain semesters of the year and even some institute classes. In many ways the guy was a giant teddy bear. I still can’t help but like him. But I did feel some of his business practices left of a lot to be desired. My neighbor had worked for him for twenty years and had only received one 25 cent raise. He also reportedly stated in one of his university classes that employees were like tools. You use them until they’re worn out or dull, then get new ones. I really have difficulty reconciling that with being a disciple of Christ. I do feel that’s a compartmentalization of life where there shouldn’t be, and is present in far too many members. The compartmentalizing example he and others set was a huge factor in the decision my wife and I made to homeschool. Discipleship is not a Sunday thing only. I hope to raise kids who can be leaders who can flawlessly blend administering and ministering, not just one or the other, and be a disciple in all aspects of life.
Many things others have mentioned have gotten to me from time to time, but as Covid has taught me that I go to Church more out of concern for others than I do for me, it’s made much of that stuff more inconsequential.
I was working on a research project with a BYU professor regarding cult practices. He suggested a go find a particular book that described the recruitment methods of cults, such as ‘love-bombing’, indoctrination, cutting people off from friends and family, and etc. Then he grinned at me and said, “sounds a lot like the MTC, doesn’t it?” And we both laughed.
“What I really don’t like is that we have so many meetings led by people with no training in how to run a meeting. As a result, hours upon hours are wasted in inefficient meetings.”
I’ll take it a step further. Most meetings I’ve been in at church weren’t about efficiency or accomplishing something, they were about killing time or fulfilling an obligation to hold the meeting.
It’s not: We’ve got this 5th Sunday hour, what can we accomplish with it?
It’s: We’ve got this 5th Sunday hour, how are we going to fill it?
““It always surprises me when talking to very TBM friends when they say something very ‘non-TBM’.”
Should it though? My experience is that mostly (emphasis on mostly) orthodox members are just as diverse as less orthodox ones.”
They are very diverse. Perhaps it’s only surprising because it’s so rare for orthodox members to pierce the thick layers of outward conformity that culture demands. It can be a sick culture where people are fearful of being themselves.
I don’t like lessons that promote a prosperity gospel. This weeks lesson focused on D&C 130:21, and the discussion was largely “If you keep the commandments, you’ll be blessed in all sorts of ways- the BEST possible ways. The blessings always come.” When some members tried to point out that that’s not exactly what the scripture says, their comments were shot down by the teacher who reinforced the idea that the gospel is very transactional – obedience in, blessings out.
The TBM members of the branch who taught and drove the discussion really seemed to love it though.
What is a “TBM”? What does it mean to be orthodox? What is gained from using such labels?
Is slapping a label on someone else a form of name-calling? Is it better to just let each member be their unique self?
Eli, I have heard totally anecdotally that the nitpicking in temple sessions is being recognized as a problem. A friend told me that her brother attended a session where it was so bad that toward the end, no one would participate in the prayer circle. She said he’s a worker in that temple, so he was present in the subsequent meeting for all temple workers where the problem was discussed. Third hand, so take it for what it’s worth. This story was told in a group of women where I am the only “questioning” member who were discussing how much they dislike attending the temple.
Naismith, I’m open for suggestions on how to refer to people with different levels of belief in the orthodox teachings of the church. Or are you objecting to my post as a whole? The point is you can’t put a label on them, because it turns out everybody picks and choses what they like with the church.
I don’t see why we need to refer to people with “different levels of belief.” I think the idea of “levels” is even a bit misleading, implying a two-dimensional measurable phenomenon, rather than the twisty complexity of human experience. If someone wants to call themselves “orthodox” or whatever, fine, that is their decision to self-identify. I only question slapping a label on someone else.
And I am not sure that everyone is “picking and choosing” as much as they are simply following their own unique spiritual path. I see church membership as a vibrant mosaic, not a melting pot.
Maybe I am just paranoid about what ward members think of me, and what labels they slap on me. I’ve had members tell me that I could never understand their problems because I have such a perfect life. Um. That is a cry for sympathy, which I can offer and not argue with them. Even though I have had some significant challenges–they are looking at me and judging.
Which is what this question seems to be encouraging. Why not ask people what amusing inconsistencies they see in themselves? I would tell you that about how the only time I drink a caffeinated soda is when I am driving home from the temple (a rugged 2-hour drive).
I realize that Jane Austen famously wrote, “For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?” I just think that is not a particularly Christlike approach.
While I realize that short-hand descriptions are useful, they have their limits. As an observant but questioning Mormon, one who hopes to see significant changes in the Church, I have felt that the term TBM has a whiff of casual dismissal.
Much like the dismissal I felt when I told a friend I disliked a Fox News commentator, only to have her say, Oh, you‘re a liberal! My reply was no, I am a never Trump-conservative with libertarian tendencies. That was too complicated for my friend to wrap her head around.
Likewise, I feel that the phrase TBM overly simplifies. I am a limited-government old-fashioned Liberal in the European sense, which used to be called conservative, but I have never been a Church conservative.
I doubt that my feelings will much change our overall use of the term TBM, but I prefer the term “believing but still questing Mormon”
So-called “liberal” Mormons have already experienced far too much hurtful labeling by supposedly more orthodox members. Returning the hurtful labeling by using terms like TBM does not improve the situation, in my opinion.
The Church claims an inflated membership of 16 million people. Each member is at his or her own point on the belief continuum. I would like us to accept each person where he or she is on that continuum.
@naismith, fwiw I don’t interpret any of these comments as mocking anyone else. Just people listing stuff that even the most active, all-in of Mormons tend not to like. And I think many would agree that labels in general are overly simplistic and that everyone is on their own spiritual path but that is a little beyond the scope of this exercise which employs them as a heuristic that is necessary to facilitate this discussion. Certainly the Church itself commonly refers to people as active, less active, inactive, and apostate ;-).
Being somewhat label-resistant myself, I definitely think Naismith’s suggestion merits discussion. I hate it when other people decide who or what I am, stick me in a box and slap a label on it. I would prefer them to actually spend time getting to know and understand me.
I also like the image of a mosaic that Naismith suggests. I would wish such ideas get more traction in our religious communities.
I have to confess, I was disappointed in the Temple experience. Like when I was 8 getting baptized and told how wonderful it would be and how wonderful I would feel, I didn’t have those feelings.
I didn’t feel different. I felt the same.
For one thing, I learned in the Temple,I was still secondary to men.
As the church spends so much money building temples, I wonder why those ordinances couldn’t be done in more modest buildings? Maybe add adaptions to Stake Centers? Or do we need the lure of a “special” place?
Just some thoughts…
The main things I have heard from people I assumed were more orthodox than I feel like I am (avoiding any labels here, because Naismith’s right that we really are just assuming what others are thinking based on the limited exposure to them we have at Church): 1) almost nobody likes garments, and the smallest percent of those liking them are women. They really don’t work for most women, 2) a lot of women (and perhaps smaller percentage of men) don’t like the temple, 3) the majority of women I know at Church do not believe that their husbands “preside” without torturing that word beyond meaning, and a whole lot of them think that as women we just have to humor the men by pretending they are “leaders” because men are basically insecure and status-conscious in ways women often are not. It’s one reason that Relief Society is usually better (but not always!) than the other meetings. The other thing that seems obvious to me is that even when people insist the Q12 can’t / don’t make mistakes, they can all point to things that they clearly believe were mistakes, even if they are unwilling to call them that.
Here are the things that have surprised me, coming from people that I consider more orthodox than I am (and perhaps they are actually more orthodox than I am; perhaps they are not):
(1) Everyone my age misses the fun side of Mormonism. The roadshows, the pot lucks, the chances to just get to know each other;
(2) I’ve definitely noticed a downward trend in recent years in people attending tithing settlement, for a few reasons (1) they already declare their tithing status in their TR interview; (2) it’s a huge waste of time and energy to have to go back to the church building several hours after church for this 10-minute rubber stamp affair; (3) members seem to be more guarded about their time nowadays. As a stake auditor I have to discuss tithing settlement with the Bishops in January and they all seem so frustrated that they sit at the church all day on Sunday in December but nobody is coming in.
(3) Many members have expressed frustration with the current funding for the youth. Like, where did all the money we used to spend on scouts go? In order to equalize the budgets between genders, we reduced the male budget instead of increasing the female budget.
(4) Why does President Oaks only ever talk about one thing?
(5) Younger families would rather spend time together than in the temple, not necessarily because they don’t like the temple, but just think there are more urgent matters in life than temple attendance;
(6) Our stake boundaries make no sense. Our stake covers 3.5 high schools and the families in the school that is cut down the middle are frustrated. I’m noticing people just going to whatever ward they want between the two stakes and the SPs seem powerless to the situation, as these families just don’t care about the reasons why they can’t attend church where it works for them. They see not being allowed a calling to just be icing on the cake =).
One I totally forgot is that a whole lot of Church members fully support gay rights, do not believe that being gay is a choice, and support gay marriage. Many express their support because of empathy for family members or friends, and they just assume the Church hasn’t caught up yet. It’s not 100%, but I’d bet that Jana Reiss’s study was right, that it’s north of 50% at this point.
I was also pleasantly surprised when a former RS president schooled a Gospel Doctrine teacher about abortion rights, including that the Church’s stance acknowledged a woman’s choice, and that the black & white anti-abortion stance he claimed we had was not accurate.
I have always wanted Church to mean something to me. I want to be challenged. When was the last time I was given “homework” in one of the meetings?
I have been listening to a local non-denominational church’s YouTube feed. I can’t say I agree with the pastor 100% (especially around Biblical literalism), but he gives them an applicable challenge each week. Something that is actually tangible to do. There is something to be said for people who are trained and know how to lead.
I can get behind the critique to not flippantly label members or non-members, whether that label is TBM, active liberal, anti-Mormon, etc. There is a strong chance I mis-label people often, with far too little information, and for self-serving purposes.
Having said that, I will give commenters here the same grace I hope others give to me by assuming that in commenting under this particular topic, they are thinking about people who check the boxes that the church has defined as being important to membership and general happiness/salvation. Regular church attendance, holding a temple recommend, holding a church calling, advancing through the various organizational paths (or having their children do so) and generally espousing a positive view of the church and its claims of exclusivity and revelation through leaders from God/Christ. It is this category of person who I was thinking about in making my earlier comment.
To add one additional thought, perhaps we should consider Jana Riess’ book and research for The Next Mormons as containing several surprising findings for how people who consider themselves active members or TBMs deviate from characteristics or beliefs that such a label would have been though of just a decade or so ago.
After reading many insightful comments in this post, the moral of the story here for me: the church and the Gospel are distinct for most (even if only in practice but not in states belief), and people get to define for themselves just how wide that crescent overlap is between those spheres.
My own anecdotal take on this topic is that orthodox members often have the same complaints and dislikes about Church stuff as unorthodox/nuanced members do. However, the orthodox members are much more likely to keep their complaints to themselves, swallow their pride and do those unpleasant things anyway. They don’t say no to time-consuming, soul-sucking callings even when they should. They show up to clean the chapel when no one else does, and consider themselves “blessed” for doing so. They watch every session of general conference in their Sunday clothes, pay tithing first when they can barely afford it, and wear garments when it is impractical or unsafe to do so. They put up with domineering, abusive leaders for fear of “speaking evil of the Lord’s anointed”. Many of us grew up internalizing the idea that self-sacrifice, personal inconvenience and even misery brings blessings (whatever that means). I don’t mean to be critical of such people; if anything, I feel sorry for them. Many of those people are slowly dying on the inside, still trying to convince themselves how wonderful their lives are. I know because I used to be them, and was secretly depressed and miserable until I learned a more nuanced way of being.
Top TBM complaints I’ve heard:
1) Annoyed/hurt by stupid, cliquish, lazy, chauvinistic, blissfully unaware of problems, and/or inept local leaders.
2) Annoyed/hurt at the men always getting their way. Annoyed/hurt by fellow members doing mean things.
3) Anti-vax hate toward RMN for being “controlled” by the government. (Big eye roll here. I’m stunned that TBM have been so anti-prophet of late. Wait, let me re-phrase that- have chosen other prophets above RMN.)
4) Annoyance at “liberal” tendencies in the church (they are throwing darts at a small handful of Q12).
5) Being stuck in nursery or Primary too long and not getting to socialize w adults.
6) Real burn-out cleaning the church. We all know that only a handful of families end up doing it. They’ve been humble and helpful, but those 3-5 families in each ward are (after all these years) burned.out.
7) Frustration at having wings clipped. There are few opportunities to engage with the community, and internal things like potlucks, roadshows, big events, bazaars, dinner study groups, parties, etc. have all been cancelled or are so correlated that people are simply pawns instead of meaningful contributors.
8) The church is so big…. Many TBM feel forgotten, left out, disconnected from SL, part of a machine.
9) Curricula being too simple, too vague, irrelevant, chauvinistic, blindsided, boring, etc.
Here’s my embarrassing confession: It’s been a very long time since I’ve been a fan of scripture reading. Anymore, I feel like any practical or emotional insights I glean from the scriptures are eisegetical and could be drawn more readily from thousands of other works. But as a church member, I’m supposed to treasure these leatherbound texts above everything else available in the world’s libraries.
Robert,
FWIW, many of the GAs study from modern versions of the Bible instead of the KJV. Reading the NT in your native language (so it flows like a story instead of your Shakespearean homework) is a whole new world. (See general conference talk references to find out who is using modern Bible versions.) It burns my biscuits that the GAs study with the NIV and other revised bibles, when they are all highly educated and have access to multiple universities, experts, each other, etc., and the basic member struggling to get by has to read a form of English that is over 400 years old. It is poetic and beautiful, but not if you can’t understand it. – what’s the point? Most members would equate reading the RSV or NIV, the Septuagint or other versions as heresy.