New videos recently published on FairMormon’s YouTube channel are causing a stir in some Latter-day Saint spheres. The apologetic[fn1] videos, modeled after news satire shows like The Daily Show with Trevor Noah or Saturday Night Live‘s Weekend Update segments, star Latter-day Saints Kwaku El and Brad Witbeck[fn2]. In an introductory video published November 26th, El explains that the series is “dedicated to comedically taking down Anti-Mormonism.”
The topic of the first set of these videos is the CES Letter. The hosts and director Cardon Ellis explain why they chose the target.
[Ellis] We chose the CES Letter because it is, honestly, the most intellectually dishonest and easy to disprove if you’re willing to put the work in and read.
“The CES Letter is Cringe. Lets Destroy it. :)” FairMormon YouTube Video
[Witbeck] It’s also extremely widespread, so we want to make sure that this gets out to people so that they don’t have all of these falsehoods and misdirection kind of leading them down the wrong way.
[El] So we’re going to point out the inconsistencies, we’re going to point out the manipulative language, we’re going to point out the total fabrications in the letter, but also give you evidence for the restored gospel and the Book of Mormon and strengthen people’s beliefs.
[Witbeck] So if you or anyone you know are doubting your testimonies because of the CES Letter, please, watch through these videos first.
The CES Letter
Below is background on the CES Letter adapted from a W&T post I wrote a few years ago. If you’re already familiar with the publication, feel free to skip to the next section.
The publication, CES Letter: My Search for Answers to My Mormon Doubts, is the latest incarnation of an April 2013 document Jeremy Runnells sent to a CES director (hence the original title, Letter to a CES Director: Why I Lost My Testimony). Runnells was raised in the church, went through the typical Latter-day Saint milestones and, like many others, got blindsided by disturbing church history facts around the age of 30. What sent him down the rabbit hole was a news article quoting Elder Marlin K. Jensen, Church Historian, about a modern-day apostasy due to church history concerns. Runnells went to Wikipedia for explanations, and from there he hit up both apologetic and critical sources of information about the church. The faith crisis began in February 2012, and by summer his testimony was gone.
After long conversations with his grandfather, Runnells was offered the opportunity in early 2013 to correspond with a CES Director. The director asked Runnells for his concerns, and Runnells opted to take advantage of an opportunity to get some official answers. He compiled a PDF of every critique he could think of and posted it on Reddit to get some feedback before sending it to the director in late April 2013.
The letter spread quickly on Reddit and made it’s way to the MormonThink website where it then went viral. The publication is credited with starting thousands (if not tens of thousands) of people on journeys out of the church and has inspired other “big list” compilations of arguments discrediting the Church.
There have been many apologetic responses to the CES Letter, including FairMormon, Michael R. Ash, Jim Bennett, Conflict of Justice, ChurchisTrue, and others.
The FairMormon Videos
The responses I’ve seen to the new videos are mixed. Some members like the humor, others feel the sarcastic tone undermines the arguments. Some feel the videos demean those with legitimate questions about the Church and its history, others are betting that the videos will have a Streisand effect and introduce even more individuals to the CES Letter.
Many people may not realize that this ascerbic humor is a return to an older style of Latter-day Saint apologetics. Who can forget Bill Hamblin’s classic “Metcalfe is a butthead” encrypted in a book review for the FARMS Review in the 1990s? Dan Peterson explained in 2011, while describing the twenty-two-year-old run of the FARMS Review, that the Review “always had an impish sense of humor and a penchant for irony and satire. This has offended some who have, I’m convinced, quite misunderstood what was going on. But it has entertained many, and, personally, I’ll choose dry wit over dry tedium any day of the week.”
The problem of “tone” has been a point of conflict between different types of Latter-day Saint apologists, and/or scholars for years. Ralph Hancock[fn3] wrote about the tension in his essay for the 2017 compilation Perspectives of Mormon Theology: Apologetics.
Another question that has been prominent in debates between Mormon apologists and advocates or practitioners of Mormon Studies is the question of “tone.” The latter have made the case for their own activity in part by declaiming against the alleged bad manners or uncongenial tone in the writings of the apologists….
The application of the Christian virtue of humility to intellectual debates is a complex question. Here I would simply ask whether on occasion some sharpness of tone, some irony and even some measured indignation would not be inherent in the task of rigorous intellectual engagement. An example, external to the intra-Mormon debate, that happens to fall before my eyes at this moment is this comment on the New Atheism from the fine Aquinas scholar Edward Feser: ‘Their books stand out for their manifest ignorance” of the Western religious tradition, he says, “and for the breathtaking shallowness of their philosophical analysis of religious matters.” Now, that seems harsh, you might well say. But is not the important question: Is it true, or largely true, and therefore substantially justified? Will truth be served by such verve and clarity rather than by diplomatic dodging? Transposing this question into the field of Mormon apologetics, I would simply ask: Have there been no writings by critics of Mormonism or by quasi-Mormon dissidents that merit the same kind of liveliness and directness that Feser applies to the New Atheists?
Ralph Hancock, “Mormon Apologetics and Mormon Studies,” Perspectives on Mormon Theology: Apologetics, p. 97-98.
While reading Hawkgrrrl’s post this morning, “Vampires & Consent,” I was struck by the idea of the vampire of “self-censorship” to keep things “nice.” In the post, Hawk quotes the lyrics of the song “Die, Vampire, Die” from the musical [title of show] about the air freshener vampire stifling self-expression: “She wants you to clean it up and clean it out which will leave your work toothless, gutless, and crotchless. You’ll be left with two tight paragraphs about kittens that your grandma would be so proud of.” This is essentially the same argument that Ralph Hancock makes, that an apologist should “accept the rules of the intellectual game one is playing.”[fn4]
To forbid such vigorous rhetoric by appeal to some standard of “humility” or “charity” would be to undermine the rigor and the energy of the very practice of rational investigation and debate…
To attempt to impose the lofty ideal of charity on the intellectual practice of the debate itself would be like expecting a competitor in a race to step aside and say, “after you.”
Ralph Hancock, “Mormon Apologetics and Mormon Studies,” Perspectives on Mormon Theology: Apologetics, p. 100.
The humor in the new videos isn’t my style. Admittedly, Gen X and Millennials aren’t the target demographic. Those who’ve read my old posts know I’m not a big fan of the CES Letter, but I believe many of its topics are worth investigation and discussion. When watching the FairMormon videos, though, I kept fighting back an urge to write critiques of their critiques.
The new FairMormon videos (there are thirteen as of this writing) are under ten minutes each, so they’ll appeal to the shorter attention spans of Zoomers. I can’t imagine anyone truly bothered by items in the CES Letter to find solace in the videos, but they’ll provide others with quick rebuttals in social media debates. The only link to further resources in the description of the videos is a URL for the page of FairMormon responses to the CES Letter (which is most definitely NOT designed for short attention spans).
Questions: Have you heard about or watched any of the new FairMormon videos? If so, what did you think?
[1] Apologetics derives comes from the Latin word apologia, which means defense. Those who defend religion using arguments based in logic and reason are called apologists. Fun fact: the “fair” in FairMormon stands for “Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research.”
[2] Kwaku El and Brad Witbeck are also among the hosts of the new StoneXVI podcast/videos.
[3] Notably, both Dan Peterson and Ralph Hancock are among the signatories of the new Radical Orthodoxy manifesto which urges “a soft-hearted temperament that rejects the spirit of contention towards those with different views, even while we vigorously defend the truth.”
[4] This is also, btw, the same idea driving some members of the Twitter vigilante group #DezNat. One DezNat member described it as “thunderdome apologetics.” The members of the group he called “The Vanguard” have the sole purpose of bullying Anti-Mormons. “This also includes the prog[ressive Mormon]s agitating against the church, or in general anything undermining to faith in Christ. These people [the Vanguard] are blessed like Phineas for their overzealousness, they are sons of thunder. They curse and swear and mock, they wield the sarcasm of God. This volatile element in DezNat comes under fire possibly more than the Clowns, because many believe 1) Defending the gospel should never be personal 2) swearing cancels out all good 3) offending people is always wrong 4) there is no actual danger.”
Update 12/2/20: Corrected spelling of Brad Witbeck’s name (previously spelled Whitbeck).
Wheat & Tares 
Thank you for writing it. In full disclosure I no longer attend after having read the CES Letter 3+ years ago. I’m kind of bemused with Kwaku overall who I thought may have killed the golden goose of being the digital face of young / hip apologetics with his no mask parties in the Fall.
With that being said – I cant honestly believe that the FairMormon youtube channel put these videos up. Take the polygamy one for example “Kwaku – Helen being 14 isn’t troubling at all”. Really?
It frankly reeks of desperation and about as un-Christlike as I can imagine. Can you imagine any other mainstream religion putting up videos with this tone?
For me – it cemented that my decision to leave was the correct one – they can’t be honest, they won’t be honest, they will gaslight until the end of time. I honestly don’t wish ill will on the Church. I just wish our relationship was different
Wow! These seems like a huge mistake. The videos are flippant and cherry pick information. Most importantly, you don’t expend this much energy trying to “kill” something that is supposedly obviously false on its face. People who have never heard of the CES Letter will now go find it. Jeremy may want to thank these guys for the publicity.
So I watched the FairMormon video on the Book of Abraham. I am appalled. I can’t imagine why FairMormon endorsed and embraced this project. Talk about damaging the brand.
Thanks for your report, Mary Ann. I always appreciate your research. I think I can skip these videos.
Nothing in your report here surprises me except Dan Peterson’s characterization of the FARMS Review. It seemed to me quite a bit more varied than what he mentioned. “[I]mpish sense of humor”, irony, satire and “dry wit” do not include what I remember as the penchant of some of its writers for ad hominem arguments, personal attacks, and downright mean-spirited nastiness. Thankfully FARMS did a lot of great work, including some humor and wit, in addition to its descents. It has seemed to me that some of those writers (and their editors) were the ones who misunderstood what was going on in their writing, if not their intentions.
I haven’t watched all of the videos because I can’t stomach them. A misogynistic culture that is dismissive of critics and of genuine concerns is one of the things I like least about the Church, so pretty much don’t want anything to do with these two guys that embody that culture. But I’ve watched parts & followed the comments on the polygamy one closely.
I think it’s fine to make light of topics like peepstones. Peepstones never hurt anyone. Yes, people may be hurt and betrayed when they find out about peepstones, but peepstones themselves never hurt anybody and maybe Mormons could lighten up a little bit about some quirky things in our past. Fine. (Personally, I find the FAIRMormon personal attacks super distasteful; I get the point about intellectual rigorous debate, but when you’re trying to defend what you claim is Jesus’s church I think you sort of have to take the high road. By their fruits etc. etc. And if you have to resort to attacking the critic instead of engaging with the criticism, that just tells me you don’t have a great substantive argument. But again, on topics like peepstones, maybe that’s effective for some people so whatever.)
But … the polygamy video. No. It is NOT OK to make light of a practice that wounded and continues to wound so many women. It is NOT OK to make light of Helen Marr Kimball, Fanny Alger, Emma Smith, and many other women’s pain over the practice of polygamy (both historically and the remnants that remain today). It is NOT OK to discredit these women’s testimony about what happened to them (hate to go there, but that’s rape culture). It is NOT OK to pretend that these relationships were consensual (prophet and flaming sword and threat of damnation and all that). It is NOT OK to pretend that if a husband or father consented to polygamy, that made it consensual (because spoiler alert, women are not the property of their husbands and fathers and can’t be given away by them). Is is NOT OK to pretend that any arguments critical of the practice are “presentism” – how intellectually dishonest, given that men and women AT THAT TIME objected to and were hurt by the practice, including Emma herself.
I am really, really angry about the polygamy video and I cannot believe that FAIRMormon allowed itself to be associated with it. To me this is on the level of doing videos making light of the priesthood ban or exclusion policy. You can make light of peepstones. You can’t make light of policies, practices, and teachings that harm people.
Based on the comments, the only people who like this video are (1) men and (2) Hanna Seariac. The other comments, from TBM and post Mormons alike, are overwhelmingly negative. If someone who upset about polygamy came to this video to try to get some understanding or comfort – this is the furthest thing from that. This video will ONLY appeal to people who already agree with these guys and don’t have a sensitivity to ego and misogyny. It will not help people who are sincerely questioning or hurting. It puts on display the very very worst that the Church has to offer.
I have watched a bit of some of them, but it seems nothing more than the same back and forth arguments – just with two youngish faces on camera with dismissive attitudes. To me it is “move along, nothing new to see here”. I am sure some will be excited about this, but to me it is more of a yawn. But then again, I am not the target audience. I have already read the CES letter (and 90% of it was “old hat” for me), and read the Fair rebuttal, and the rebuttal to the rebuttal. I don’t even remember if there was one after that.
The videos are shockingly bad and the ones I’ve seen are only going to make Mormons look more weird, more intellectually lazy and more quick to judge than they already appear to the rest of the world. This is, from a PR perspective, a disaster. If these are the best arguments hardline apologists can come up with, they’re merely digging themselves deeper into the hole of faux scholarship, twisted logic and straw man fallacies than they already were.
I agree with Elisa that especially the flippant take on polygamy is absolutely terrible. The blithe dismissal of real concerns about the practice itself, Joseph Smith’s predatory nature and the demonstrable harm the practice did/does to women are reprehensible. I don’t know who thought these videos were good ideas, but as someone who works with young people who are the same age as the apparently intended audience of these productions, I have to say that most young people, LDS or not, will see right through these videos since they lack both any kind of cohesive argument and any sort of true cleverness or humor. They feel as if someone was trying to parody what Mormons would come up with to explain deep and troubling things about their religion. And they nailed that aspect of it, anyway. What a shame.
@Brother Sky viewing this as a parody of how Mormons explain tough stuff is spot-on. I could probably stomach it that way!
@Happy Hubby I am wondering if I should be just as angry at the polygamy gospel topics essays as I am with this video. You’re right that it’s a lot of the same arguments. But the presentation in these videos is so much worse.
I wasn’t interested in the videos in the first place. Reading the OP and the comments here just confirms my earlier decision.
I think I’m seeing two things:
1. A Streisand effect in real time. I think that’s bad for all concerned.
2. A disturbing definition of audience. It’s as though the purveyors of the videos are saying the people who actively like these videos are the only people FairMormon has answers for. Based on reactions here and elsewhere, that’s a small subset of the audience I would wish for..
The video I watched seems to be doing *exactly* what LDS apologists have been complaining about for decades in LDS critics: constructing straw man positions to attack, and selecting the weakest points in an opponent’s argument to critique, while ignoring more serious issues and arguments. Plus the Abraham video I watched focused narrowly on the CES Letter, not really engaging with the larger issues of the Book of Abraham.
Truly the dumbest crap I’ve seen on the internet. The CES Letter is amateur, sure. Jeremy Runnells didn’t have experience writing at an academic level. But many of his critiques are solid and FAIR has never produced a good answer for them. The CES Letter turned me from a NOM to a full-on skeptic. While his arguments weren’t original, his juxtaposition of all of the issues was. And that was what made it effective. It wasn’t just the lack of horses in the ancient Americas (or whatever issue that believers were asked to put on the shelf), it was all of these other issues. In it, you could see a clear pattern of con-artistry on the part of Joseph Smith and an environment of superstition and delusion among his followers. Furthermore, Runnells writes a much lengthier Debunking of FAIR’s Debunking in which he is much more articulate and solid in his critiques (which FAIR doesn’t take much time addressing).
What I’m interested in, especially in this age of Trump, is how money and social pressure shape narratives, and not only that, but help propagate bad narratives. Runnells constructed his initial narrative with no money. He did it on his own. He was running against every social norm in his environment in so doing. The CES Letter is most certainly the product of sincerity. This doesn’t make something inherently right or true, but it is important to note. On the other hand, there is a vast incentive and financial structure for Mormon apologetics. There are dozens and dozens of jobs available through the BYUs to academics who are given all kinds of incentive and environment to write and defend the church. Of course, if they say anything that can be construed as an over-the-line critique of the leadership and its core teachings, they’re axed, for sure. BYU is a pipeline of new unsuspecting students who are required to take religion classes while there. Many encounter apologists along the way who introduce them to their research, push them to continue down the academic rabbit hole, and incentivize them to become just like them. Many students fall for this and join forces with the apologist community and become a source of cheap labor to continue to put forth bad arguments and feel like they’re part of a tribe and doing something useful. Some are suckered into going and getting PhDs with the hope of going back to BYU and becoming just like the apologists. I know of many who are desperately waiting to get a foot in the door of BYU to get a job, for the knowledge they’ve acquired and the stuff they’ve written is useless anywhere else. This sucks for the students. But it is good for the church. More people who’ve written articles defending the church with an incentive to get a cushy job at BYU to keep up this ruse. And once you’ve written something that has been published and have your name attached to a position, the harder it is to change that position. Ex-Mormons and doubters do not have the structure or money to rival apologist output. Outside Mormonism, most people do not care much about the religion or how its claims are wrong (which they already assume anyways). Apologists have ample resources and any apologist or wannabe apologist who dares change his or her mind can easily have their lives ruined. If you’re an ex-Mormon, there is a lot more flexibility about changing your mind. Heck if I changed my position and started sounding more like the apologists, my life would probably get better (but my mind would explode).
And Ralph Hancock is about the most homophobic, pompous, arrogant individual I’ve ever had the occasion of interacting with. Zero respect. And Dan Petersen wrote on his blog that NAMBLA would become normalized the day after the Supreme Court legalized gay marriage. Total crackpot. These guys have no standing outside Mormonism. Non-Mormon academics who do meet them tend to find them rather curious.
Well done, John W. And with all those resources and that supposed intellectual firepower, the apologists just cannot train their sites somewhere other then poor Jeremy Runnells. The CES Letter gets under their skin like nothing else I’ve seen. Somebody at FAIRMormon needs to find some self awareness before they self immolate.
I’ve been asked how I know that so much of the Church’s narratives (history and truth claims) are false. And my answer is: if there was an effective response to the critics, I would have seen it because I constantly check official Church sources and FairMormon. My calculation is that if the CES Letter, etc. could be effectively rebutted, I would have seen the rebuttal by now. And I haven’t, not even close.
Then, these videos show up. And I’m thinking, maybe these will do the trick. Maybe these young folks will be more effective than all the “intellectuals” on FairMormon. But no, new method, same result. I guess what I am saying is this: these videos (and I’ve watched every one of them as well as the Stone XVI versions) have convinced me even more that the Church’s narratives aren’t true because they are so poorly done. Strawmen galore. Was that their intended effect? Are these guys trying to drive me further away?
Elisa – after reading your first comment and the part on the polygamy video I realized that as much as I have tried, I still don’t by default see the depth of the hurt this causes to women. I wasn’t seeing anything new or any serious engagement and I did stop paying close attention, but you calling out specifics made me think, “She is right. Why didn’t I see the extent of how bad these were?”
“an apologist should “accept the rules of the intellectual game one is playing”
This is why FAIR will never win. They try to fight fire with fire. Deznat’s “thunderdome” tactics are much more effective — clearly define your enemy, then ridicule him and the fire he’s trying to fight with.
Happy Hubby,
Yes. Elder Cook was aware enough to default to a female historian (Kate Holbrook) on the polygamy question, and these guys should’ve gotten the hint. I think that’s why I have such a problem with the tone. Many of these topics (especially polygamy for me) cause intense emotional pain, but they are being treated as a silly competition with lots of chest-thumping and smack-talk.
@John W those are super interesting comments about apologists and BYU employment. I do think there’s now a better-funded counterweight with Open Stories Foundation.
I agree that what is unique about the CES Letter is the way it strings together information that you might have already known about but not thought about as a whole. You can reason away Book of Mormon anachronisms, Book of Abraham, Kinderhook, masonic influences, treasure digging piece by piece and probably come to some kind of satisfactory conclusion for each. But if you take a step back and look at the whole, what you see is a pattern that is pretty hard to deny. So – if these guys through their videos are trying to cherry pick different elements, but without addressing the whole like the letter does, and then they drive people to the letter who will then see the whole … they are seriously going to cause more problems than they solve. For me, FAIRMormon’s truly awful responses to the CES Letter (and Jeremy’s responses to FAIRMormon) were worse than the letter itself.
As I made really clear above – I am disgusted by these videos. I’m been trying to put my finger on why they bother me so much. And I think it’s because I’ve actually been having some really positive experiences with church leaders and other members who’ve been really validating and kind and accepting about my unorthodox beliefs as I’ve become more comfortable being more open with (certain) people. Their kind and frankly quite open and progressive responses make me feel like I can actually keep participating. When I see videos like this, it makes me feel like the Church is full of obnoxious, arrogant, flippant, sexist, dishonest, immature boys and that I want nothing to do with that crowd (and don’t want my kids to have anything to do with it either). I guess that means I should just stay off the internet and focus on the positive, but it’s not like these are random fringe people – FAIRMormon is putting them up? That’s honestly really disappointing on a very personal level for me.
I have so far avoided watching the videos because I have been kind of disgusted by Kwaku El’s past stuff. After reading the post here I managed to get through a minute or so of the polygamy video.
My question is, do these guys think they are convincing anyone of anything they didn’t already believe? Do they expect to change any minds? Or do they realize that they are more just cheerleaders for the system? That there are Preachers facing the choir?
You catch more flies with honey.
Then again, I’ve never laid out mocking people’s pain and belittling people’s valid concerns to see how the flies would react.
Elisa,
“but it’s not like these are random fringe people – FAIRMormon is putting them up. That’s honestly really disappointing on a very personal level for me.”
My thoughts exactly. But if you look at the broader perspective, FAIR, while not fringe in the world of Mormonism, is fringe in the wider world of the humanities and social sciences. So much so that FAIR arguments could never travel and gain traction outside the Mormon bubble.
Elisa: the gaslighting over polygamy, particularly if presented “humorously” makes me want to burn this place to the ground.
Elisa: John seems to be sounding the alarm, especially of late, that the OSF is struggling financially. I don’t know the details, but I believe he is happy to open the books to anyone interested.
@jaredsbrother yes, I understand they lost some big donors this year. They did a fundraiser for Giving Tuesday this week and they raised $45k. I was happy to donate; I’ve been freeloading listening to their content for too long so took advantage of the FB match.
Trump has emboldened gas-lighters, confidence men & grifters. Anything goes and ends justify means. These guys are just riding that wave. It’s a big wave. Mormons love Trump. God help us.
This attempt at comedically taking down so-called Anti-Mormonism kinda looks like a self-marginalizing own goal by FairMormon, but I hang out at r/exmormon, so caveat emptor where my bad takes are concerned, lol … anywho, #givethanks that my people are long past feeling wounded watching exmo caricatures being hauled out as props in dramatized on camera assaults. The CES Letter has been around 7+ years. It beggars belief that it‘s suddenly so relevant. This latest Sturm und Drang is more likely a natural result of the bold progress BYU has been making on a variety of fronts, that has got certain parties so rattled that they‘ve recruited wrecking crews they don’t fully understand. Interesting times ahead.
Kwaku once debated the Calvinist James White. You can say what you want about Calvinism and James White, but when White quoted, in Hebrew, the sacred Jewish prayer called the Shema Yisrael, Kwaku responded by saying, “I ordered one of those at a Starbucks once.”
That told me all I ever needed to know about Kwaku.
Twenty years from now, Kwaku will be about 40 years old. This content he is making right now most likely will still be available. He will never be able to escape it. I kind of feel sorry for the guy.
Ok, another question I have is having watched a bit more of these videos, is this not a huge departure from the past Publications from Fairmormon? And does it mean Fair Mormon is changing?
To see what I’m talking about, try watching “How to offend minorities by quoting the CES letter”, in which, Kwaku El, interviewing a supposedly ditzy fake-exmo, mutters “Goebbles” in response to the fake-exmos shocking claim that indigenous people of America did not live in large cities. A minute or two of the video was more than enough for me. They would probably say I didn’t listen long enough to get to the meat, to which I would respond that their words and attitude are getting in the way of their message.
From my experience, these videos are par for the course for Kwaku El. I have never seen or heard of the other folk. So I’m not really surprised and the nature of the videos based on who is in them.
But Fair Mormon… I don’t know. I mean, while Mary Ann gives some evidence that Fair Mormon has done some cringeworthy stuff before, this really seems to blow the lid off the top. I’m not even sure that there is much of a following that likes these videos at all. Fair Mormon has churned out its share of ad hominem and straw men, but this seems worse than what I have seen before.
So is it my imagination, or is this normal for Fair Mormon? Is there someone at Fair Mormon that is actually watching these thinks that these videos are a good idea? A good representation of what Fair Mormon stands for? And is this a change from the standards Fair Mormon has followed in the past?
Rockwell, no, this content is not typical for what I’ve generally seen from FairMormon in the last 5 years I’ve been blogging. Older apologists associated with FARMS were sometimes noted for their combativeness as I noted above. You still see it a bit in certain speakers at the FairMormon conferences, but I wouldn’t call the mockery/sarcasm typical for FairMormon as a whole. That’s why the videos are even shocking to longtime FairMormon supporters.
Chino, yes, the Book of Abraham video released today featured Stephen Smoot as the boring ancient studies guy. It’s a conspicuous self-own for apologists to admit that their explanations are likely to put people to sleep.
Rockwell, I watched that same video about how skeptics are supposedly being offensive to Native Americans by claiming that the Book of Mormon isn’t true because ancient American cultures weren’t great (total strawman, no one says that). This coming from a church whose holy book says repeatedly that the dark skin of Native Americans was the result of a divine curse. These videos appear to be influenced by right-wing shock jock videos like Stephen Crowder, Dave Rubin, and others that aren’t trying to have serious conversations but are just trying to own the libs. In fact, in the video on being offensive to minorities, they portray the skeptic as a latte-sipping liberal elitist. A lot of the ex-Mormon community is actually conservative/libertarian (to my chagrin, too, that’s why I prefer to hang around politically liberal believers or partial believers).
p.. yeah that’s really does seem to be the case – the pet shop boys have a song for it, it is so not a flattering look over in the rest of the world…
Just to be clear… the song is dripping with sarcasm…
MaryAnn, thank you for this post.
So I went over there and took a look – content aside (which is awful), the over excited rapid bursts of speech, interchange between the two presenters, put me very much in mind of the mood of presentation of CES seminary videos of the late 80s…
That’s not a good thing. Very much a “we’re telling you how you should see it” kind of thing… with no intellectual rigour whatsoever.
Thanks Mary Ann. Reading this brought me some clarity. I had something of a visceral response to the videos. I did cringed at the thumbnails and couldn’t finish watching the couple of video’s I gave a chance. What really got to me wasn’t the arguments. I usually like FairMormon, even when I often disagree with them. I was disappointed in the new tone and style of the videos and felt put down for disagreeing with them. I guess I prefer intellectual and pastoral approaches to faith issues than satire or ascorbic humor.
I feel bad for the gal who dressed up as a Kinderhook plate and told to make the stereotypical retard face and pose. She must have had hopes and dreams at one point of a career in entertainment. That youtube thumbnail is probably as far as that will get and she will likely one day regret being involved in something so tasteless
I tried to watch them with an open mind, but found them deeply insulting. I am struggling with my faith right now and this kind of snarky response to people like me that are sincerely questioning just hurts. I find this same kind of tone offensive on exmormon reddit and trying to meet them at the bottom really the wrong idea. I think between the new podcast tone and these videos it discredits FARMS/FAIRMormon as a serious defender of faith.
I think Dan Peterson confuses dry wit for whiny self serving victimhood.
Also, I had seen some of Kwaku’s work on the 3 Mormons channel and thought he was smug and pretentious then. These videos have not changed my mind.
This is sad because FairMormon has always been a good resource for questions as they site sources and give decent explanations. I don’t always agree with their conclusions and there are times when I feel like they’re engaging in confirmation bias but if you site your sources then I can at least go check things out for myself.
It’d be useful if they did some research on the psychology behind how and why people change their mind. The strategy of wit and sarcasm is only useful when singing to the choir.
These videos highlight for a new generation what has been problematic for LDS apologetics for years–they make pre-determined conclusions about what is “true” and then build complex flimsy intellectual scaffolding to try and defend those conclusions. It goes without saying, but that is not scholarship. I also disapprove of their broad-brush caricatures of “anti-Mormons”; how do they expect to win over people they constantly mock? Ad hominem and straw men aren’t going to change anyone’s minds. Also, there is a time and place for acerbic, rapid-fire humor, but this is not it; such a presentation comes off as smug and dismissive of genuine concerns.
Thank you for the thoughtful post.
Did you have a chance to read the last essay (by Seth Payne) in that Perspectives on Mormon Theology: Apologetics book? I think he makes a strong case that the manner in which we engage is as important as the strength or accuracy of our responses.
He spends some time analyzing 1 Peter 3:15. Apologists use the verse to justify giving a response, but they sometimes fail to heed the trailing admonition:
“…be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you **with meekness and fear**” (alternatively “translated with gentleness and reverence”).
I’m a former member, but I can see the wisdom in discussing these difficult topics with one another with gentleness and reverence. Mainly, I think most people are sincere and honest in their beliefs, and we all are simply trying to make our way in this complex and difficult world. It is difficult for all of us, but even if we might disagree with others over important topics, I hope that we can leave a discussion encouraged by the love and respect we have shown and been given. It just seems to me that *how* we engage is as important as *what* we are saying.
These videos are entertaining and witty in some ways, and I think it’s great that the authors were willing to engage with the CES Letter and the topics raised, but imagine how much more powerful they could be as examples of Christ’s followers if they were also charitable towards Runnells and the difficulty some of these topics genuinely imply.
Latter-day Saints are certainly *justified* in returning snark for snark and barbs for barbs, but I see it as a missed opportunity for *demonstrating* the power of the Christian ethic in how we engage with others. No better chance to exercise Christian discipleship than in how we respond to those with whom we strongly disagree.
Bwv549,
Yes, I read all the essays in the book and enjoyed considering their perspectives. For those unfamiliar with the 2017 book Perspectives in Mormon Theology: Apologetics, it has a whole bunch of essays where the authors discuss their approaches to Mormon apologetics. Many well-known Latter-day Saint scholars with widely different backgrounds and opinions contributed to the volume. Here are a list of the contributors: Blair Van Dyke, Dan Peterson, Neal Rappleye, Michael Ash, Benjamin Park, Ralph Hancock, Brian Birch, Juliann Reynolds, Julie M. Smith, Fiona Givens, David Knowlton, Loyd Ericson, David Bokovoy, Joseph Spencer, and Seth Payne.
Generally, the first group covers more traditional apologetic approaches, the middle discusses voices less represented in apologetics, and the later essays focus more on pastoral approaches.
https://gregkofford.com/products/perspectives-apologetics
“how do they expect to win over people they constantly mock?”
They don’t expect to win people who have already crossed the line into skepticism and doubting. The target audience is already believing members. And not even just all believers, but a particular subset of them: young members who may have vaguely heard of skeptical literature and some of the issues brought up in it. They target the young person who may be a bit puzzled or beginning to experience the initial stages of cognitive dissonance. They want to give them a neatly package gloss-over of the apologist rhetoric (much like news shows’ talking points) and show just how stupid the skeptics are and how laughable their claims are. They want their audience to readily dismiss skeptical literature and skeptical people as uninformed and ridiculous before they even engage them. They want their audience to feel satisfied and confident in a snippet answer and that the issue is so dumb and that the apologists have covered it so well that they need not look into it any further.
For us who have spent years with cognitive dissonance and have long crossed the threshold into questioning, skepticism, and doubt, these videos seem completely ridiculous with just a moment’s glance. But for those ensconced in Mormonism for all their lives and never having been exposed to critical literature except through the believing filter, these videos will appear as people who are one of them mocking people that they have the inclination to mock and dismiss. They serve to reinforce the dismissiveness of the already believing naive against skeptics. Of course, these videos may backfire as well and introduce the unsuspecting to information they were unaware of and cause them to go a digging. I remember in my believing days when I first watched the Mormon production Singles Ward. I thought it was so funny. It spoke to my experience, my environment, and my values. It didn’t seem weird at all. I tried watching Singles Ward again a few years back. Since the first I had watched it, my environment and perspective had changed drastically. The second time around I didn’t think it was funny at all. It made me want to hit my head against the wall. And such are the new FAIR videos. They speak to the me of 17 years ago. Not me now.
Are the videos the equivalent of a certain “jump the shark” TV episode?
Just sayin’…I hope I never have a leader who is a fan of these videos.
The CES letter was a big meh for me too. On its own it should’ve floated off in the downstream current of Internet viral phenomenons. Instead the debunkers and counter debunkers, ad infinitum, have given it life to the point that it’s practically canon.
But these videos. Yikes.
They’re beyond mere snark— they’re dishonest in every way— morally, intellectually, aesthetically, you name it. They will only be viewed as positive by people who accept those dishonesties, and have bad taste in the performing arts. People of quality, with standards, who seek truth in their journey, will be repelled.
Too bad for FAIR. Though I rarely agreed with them, I held a measure of esteem for them which is seriously eroded. But there’s a silver lining! I gained a knowledge of Mormon subculture I would never have otherwise been exposed to, and will be less clueless in the future when someone references Kwaku’s notoriety.
John W: I am totally flummoxed at the idea that there is any substantial target audience for these. Fair is saying “this is how youths talk.” No. It isn’t. If there is a subset of youth who engage with each other this way, they aren’t the majority of Mormon kids I know. This might appeal to the kids on the far right who also thinking “owning the libs” is the same thing as engaging in politics. I would peg that at roughly 5-8% of the Mormon kids I know. (My kids are in this age group, and I know the other kids from multiple wards who are Gen Z. They are mostly NOT sexist and find misogyny unappealing. Most of them would see this mockery as people being a-holes or at least thinking they were cool while being cringe. The girl dressed as the kinderhook plates appears to be mocking the mentally challenged, another absolute no among the kids I know. And these straw-person arguments won’t convince anyone who is actually doubting because they are based on an inaccurate depiction of the doubts.)
And now all the comments have been disabled on the FairMormon videos. Total hit-and-run job. Ok have your 15 minutes of clown game, Kwaku the anti-masked, and your viewership of a few thousand. Who cares. Clearly don’t want to have a fair discussion.
@John W I’m surprised it took them so long to disable & delete comment because 90% were negative and many pointed to FAIRMormon essays and resources that actually contradicted Kwaku.
The difference between “The Daily Show with Trevor Noah or Saturday Night Live‘s Weekend Update” (and other such shows), and Kwaku El and Brad Witbeck is the late night comedies can be fact checked.
Kwaku El and Brad Witbeck are farcical. It is intriguing that the lds church and FairMormon choose this route.
Late night comedians are, “wise enough to play the fool”, (Shakespeare, Twelfth Night).
COVID seems to have brought out the weirdness in all of us. With the CES letter parodies, FAIR seems to have entered the “Twight Zone.” I suspect the net affect of the videos is to raise the interest level in the letter. Sort of counter productive for FAIR. Not to mention, it was a dubious project to begin with. If you contribute to FAIR, you may want to reconsider.
Then we have the “Radical Orthodoxy” manifesto. The title (an intention oxymoron?), doesn’t make sense, nor does the function of the manifesto. The message appears to be research away, but follow the brethren (Q15?). I don’t follow anyone blindly, and that includes the Q15. Does anyone remember the black exclusion, ETB, POX, polygamy, LGBTQ+, etc. I’m not giving up my free agency to anyone.
Even more bizarre was the male Givens’s screed against abortion. The timing is certainly odd, just before the recent election. It seems intended as support for conservative Republicans and Trump.
And let’s not forget BYU lawyers arguing that the decertification efforts against the BYU police are politically motivated. Isn’t the Governor LDS, isn’t 85% of the State Legislature LDS? BYU needs to admit that it got its hand caught in the cookie jar and deal with the consequences. Remember your tithing money is paying for the lawyers.
Then we have the anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers. Maybe we are all suffering from cabin fever.
The new FairMormon videos remind me of the story in the Book of Mormon where those in the great and spacious building mock people honestly seeking to find truth and live good lives.
If the church (who ultimately is a source of funding for FairMormon) thinks this is a good idea, to mock people who have legitimate questions and are seeking truth and honesty, then I’m not sure where to go from here.
I can handle uncomfortable history as long as it is dealt with honestly and in a decisive effort to right wrongs and move forward in a positive direction. I can’t handle continued gaslighting and mockery.
Truth stands up to scrutiny. Apologistic thinking is fundamentally flawed, choosing an endpoint and twisting evidence and facts to fit the narrative. Let’s go where the truth takes us, as uncomfortable as that might be. That is how humans progress and become better.
I watched three of them. Every negative adjective used in these comments is well-deserved. The video on polygamy told me all I need to know about these guys.
You can contact FairMormon via their Facebook page. I just did and asked them to please take three videos down.
*the videos
Sorry
As someone in the Gen Z category, these will not appeal to most and will probably just open the doors to people exploring more on their own. And anything mocking the mentally disabled will not age well at all.
I looked up the “Radical Orthodoxy” manifesto that Roger Hansen referenced above. I hadn’t heard about it. I find it deeply disturbing that so many scholars are on board. A similar approach used to work for me, years ago. It worked until it didn’t. It’s not a universal approach. It leaves too many outside the tent. How can we be a family oriented church when we reject some of our children. Many scholars suggest that Joseph Smith’s genius was a certain universalism. Radical orthodoxy does not embrace that universalism. Even more, it seems antithetical to what I read of the New Testament Jesus who fought the orthodoxy of the day.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020/12/05/theres-new-manifesto/
It’s getting more violent and more personal but not a whole lot more responsible. I’d hate to think that something like that incited someone with more belief than personal restraint.
This is what should be representing or “defending” the church?
Alice, that video was created by a kid associated with DezNat. That in NO WAY excuses the violent message, but DezNat is known for their violent memes specifically made to intimidate so-called apostates and anti-Mormons. Kwaku and Cardon Ellis should’ve denounced those videos immediately if they didn’t want to be associated with the violent tactics of DezNat. Instead, they retweeted the violent video on their own feeds (Kwaku’s personal feed and Midnight Mormon feed).
For those who would rather not watch a graphic depiction of a man smashing another man’s head in with a baseball bat, here’s a description of the video: It’s a scene from the Quentin Tarantino movie “Inglorious Bastards,” where the Brad Pitt character is labeled FairMormon, the kneeling captured Nazi solder he talks to is labeled John Dehlin, and the younger captured Nazi soldier crying nearby is labeled Jeremy Runnells. After chatting a bit, the Zachary Quinto character comes out labeled as StoneXVI (a podcast Kwaku El, Brad Witman, and Cardon Ellis do), and, using the baseball bat labeled as TITS (the new FairMormon show “This Is The Show”), graphically bashes the Nazi’s head in (the Nazi named John Dehlin).
Thanks for making the authorship more clear, Mary Ann. I was clearly confused. Still, FAIR should be careful what lion’s tail they’re pulling on.
Alice, I agree 100%.
Unfortunately the videos and behavior of those associated with them is going to do more harm to the Church’s reputation than good. I’m exmo but still care about the people, but if this is what the church is becoming…I don’t know what the church will have going for it if it becomes disassociated from being at least ‘nice’.
What was FAIR and its sponsors thinking?
Those videos are crazy. FAIRMormon really should drop Kwaku immediately. He’s a terrible representative. I am sending this stuff to family members I know donate to FAIR and asking them to stop donating.
And once YouTube have you clocked watching any of these appalling FairMormon videos, they offer you Zelph on the Shelf’s rebuttals… or they did me…
It all looks like a huge error of judgement on the part of FairMormon..
Fair Mormon has a show called TITS? What? Desperate to generate traffic?
While the church does not fund FairMormon directly, it’s my understanding that they fund it indirectly through the More Good foundation. I can not imagine that this money comes without strings attached and significant stipulations about its use. I suspect that at any moment the church could facilitate this enterprise being shut down immediately. That it hasn’t happened is deeply troubling.
Four Types of Chiasmus in Deuteronomy and Jeremiah, with Implications for the Book of Mormon Mormanity : Jeff Lindsay
MW, that has traditionally been my understanding as well, but, after watching Dehlin’s Facebook video today, I’m beginning to wonder if that is inaccurate. The two financial sources he attributes to the LDS Church are the Deseret Trust Company and LDS Foundation. The Deseret Trust Company is a for-profit Church business that holds, invests, and distributes the money of private individuals, so any contribution from them would’ve been likely directed by a specific person (per my understanding of the company from the Mormon Stories interviews with Roger Hendrix).
Dehlin noted today that the More Good Foundation website did not disclose any funding from the Church through 2016. He didn’t mention, however, that the More Good Foundation website currently states that they receive funds from the “Foundation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Foundation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints makes donations to many organizations and is funded by the revenues of wholly owned, for-profit companies.” The connection that I HAVE NOT seen anyone make, however, is whether the More Good Foundation uses the money it receives from the Church specifically towards FairMormon. On one of the images that Dehlin showed, it shows the cumulated incomes of the More Good, FairMormon, BofM Central, and Interpreter nonprofits. The money that FairMormon receives in a given year is a tiny fraction of the money that the More Good Foundation raises in a year.
So, I don’t think much, if any, of FairMormon’s limited funding (I think they employ maybe 2 people?) comes from the Church.
With respect to the original videos from Fair Mormon, many of the discussions mentioned the Streisand effect, that the videos could actually bring more attention to the CES letter.
The discussion on exmormon Reddit is now going the same direction. Several recent posts are encouraging people to stop talking about these videos, to stop giving them attention. Last I checked, the videos had between 500 and 14000 views. Exmo Reddit, which typically has thousands of members actively online at the same time, has been discussing these a lot. It’s not inconceivable that 50 percent or more of the views are people going there “to get triggered” as one commenter put it. A reverse Streisand effect, so to speak.
One thing that doesn’t work is complaining to the folks in the video. Ellis and El have both made it clear that they see any criticism as anti-Mormon behavior, evidence that their videos are working.
One commenter on r/Mormon subreddit has said they are canceling donations to Fair Mormon as a result of this series of videos. That kind of reaction may make a difference, but it is not something I can do as I never have and never will contribute to fair.
@Rockwell I don’t and wouldn’t ever donate to FAIR either but I have family who does and I will be sending them the videos and asking them not to donate anymore.
I have tried to find a contact person for FAIR to write a complaint but the email addresses I’ve tried so far have bounced. If anyone has any leads LMK. I have to believe that a lot of higher ups would find these videos distasteful. Then again, I’ve been shocked at some of what FAIR folks like Peterson and Gee have said about “opponents” in the past so who knows.
Elisa,
Go to the FairMormon Facebook page and there’s a big “Contact Us” blue bar. I received two emails regarding my initial message to them, and I’m working on my reply.
Elisa, the only email address I’ve seen publicized is videofeedback@fairmormon.org.
On its website, FairMormon lists as its friends:
Book of Mormon Central
BYU Religious Studies Center
BYU Studies
Interpreter Foundation
LDS Perspectives Podcast
Pearl of Great Price Central
It is likely that some portion of its funding does come quite directly from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Mary Ann– Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate your tireless and exhaustive research on this and related matters. You have a unique voice on relevant matters and I appreciate your work. I am grateful for your vigilance and attention to both nuance and detail.
I would hope that while the church may not have direct control over the financing of FairMormon they would still make efforts to encourage FM’s taking the high road as they engage in their work. As the church is presumably the beneficiary of FM’s efforts, I would hope that leaders would exert pressure on FM, when appropriate, to take down materials that may treat relevant subject matters in a questionable manner. This approach that FairMormon is taking seems to be at odds with any efforts to make the church a safe place for honest people seeking to understand and process difficult issues. Treating uncomfortable subjects in a superficial manner and mocking honest questioners is an approach that will backfire in the long run.
Thank you again for all of your work. I truly appreciate it.
FairMormon Statement Regarding “ This is The Show” Videos:
The FAQs link at the end is a trip. My favorite: if you don’t like these, just don’t watch them.
Or maybe the best is how they refer to the acronym for This is The Show as, “TS”. Really.
Possibly it’s how they underestimate Gen Z. Nope. That last one is definitely bottom of the barrel.
https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2020/12/08/fairmormon-statement-regarding-this-is-the-show-videos
For FairMormon to create videos like these the CES Letter must be incredibly effective. Sorry, but this crass garbage full of half truths aren’t going to do anything to blunt the CES Letter.
This is The Show is more modeled after FoxNews. Since a fair number of devout LDS really believe Fox is the only true place for true news, they will be unable to recognize the farce coming from Kwaku and Brad.
It’s likely that, like Fox, This is The Show will actually appeal as much to an older generation as to our young adults. I’ve noticed a few commenters appear to be older, supportive of FairMormon on this. Can’t grasp why some of us are embarrassed by it.