I’ve been noticing a few former ward members posting on social media about being part of the “silent majority” in our country; they are huge Trump supporters. The use of this phrase reminds me of the term “moral majority” that came of age in the 1970s, when conservatism was resurging in response to movements like feminism and civil rights, resulting in the election of Ronald Reagan.
In 1979, the Reverend Jerry Falwell founded the Moral Majority to combat “amoral liberals,” drug abuse, “coddling” of criminals, homosexuality, communism, and abortion. The Moral Majority represented the rise of political activism among organized religion’s radical right wing.
https://quizlet.com/62124972/chapter-31-flash-cards/
The so-called Moral Majority ended in the late 80s, but its roots run deep in the Republican Party, resurfacing in the Trump parades and rallies so familiar to us during the last four years. To channel my inner Mike Myers’ Coffee Talk: “the silent majority is neither silent, nor a majority. Discuss.” The Republican party knows very well that they are not a majority in the U.S., as evidenced by their leaked strategy to suppress votes, a strategy that Trump pretty openly explained in his rallies and interviews leading up to the election. The fewer voters we have, the more likely Republicans win. The more voters, the more like Democrats win.
Voter suppression isn’t even necessary for Republicans to win, though, thanks to the electoral college which gives an increasing advantage to conservative voters:
There have only been four inversions in presidential elections since 1836. Two such electoral inversions occurred in Republican George W. Bush’s victory over Al Gore in 2000, and Republican Donald Trump’s defeat of Hillary Clinton in 2016.
https://www.newsweek.com/abolish-electoral-college-favors-republicans-over-democrats-future-presidential-elections-study-1464834
An “inversion” in an election is when the electoral college result is the opposite of the popular vote, and according to the above mentioned study, inversions that favor Republicans are likely in 65% of close elections.
Around a third of registered voters in the U.S. (34%) identify as independents, while 33% identify as Democrats and 29% identify as Republicans, according to a Center analysis of Americans’ partisan identification based on surveys of more than 12,000 registered voters in 2018 and 2019.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/
So why don’t we just go by the popular vote? The reason is not really that complicated. Other wealthy nations do align more closely with the popular vote. The US debated this question at its inception, and the worry was that there was no way for the majority of citizens (in the late 1700s anyway) to get access to news sources. Another factor is that states were tetchy after the Civil War about preserving their identity and representation after seceding and then begrudgingly coming back together as a union. Particularly in the South, which lost the Civil War (although there is apparently still some question about that in certain states), this was a concession to their resentment over their loss, and a way to keep them from seceding again. It was also a way for them to continue to oppress and repress former slaves without uppity high-minded Northerners forcing them to live as equals. [1]
The most recent reason we don’t ditch this antiquated approach is that Republicans benefit from it (at the expense of the will of the people), and it’s in the Constitution. Trying to get something like this changed is usually an exercise in futility, even though nearly everyone who looks at it agrees it would be a more fair way to approach elections.
Another aspect of the election that is problematic, as this election is revealing, is that individual states all have different voting rules. In my native PA, they don’t even start counting mail in votes until the day of the election. Some counties literally never count them unless they are required to break a tie. Why does it feel like they are just being lazy? Some states require witnesses to your ballot, some do signature verification, some have multiple envelopes you have to seal your ballot into, and we all know about Florida’s infamous dangling chads. Having different states run things differently is itself problematic. Why can’t we administer elections the same way across the whole country? Why can’t we at least establish national standards that prevent some of the ridiculous methods of some of the states? Why can’t we prevent states from disenfranchising specific populations as they choose?
When I lived in Singapore, my Australia team mentioned that they had a national holiday coming up; it was their election day. It was like Independence Day in the US. There were barbecues and people showing up to vote in Speedos. It was a raucous good time. Throw another shrimp on the barbie, mate! Their voting percentage is usually over 95%. In the US, only 55.5% of the voting age population voted in 2016. As a result, they have a much higher voter engagement, and surprisingly, a much more responsive government. They specifically seek to encourage marginalized populations to vote, including the homeless, those in prison, those in hospital, and indigenous populations. They see democracy as participatory, a way to build the society people want together. [2]
One reason we don’t do this in the US is that we have such a strong libertarian streak. People don’t want to be told what to do by government, even though voting is literally the opposite of this: voting is us telling the government what we want it to do.
We’ve somehow bought the line that politics exists apart from the will of the people, as something that happens to us, not that we create, and that the will of the government has to be suppressed or our own freedoms will be gone. Sure, in 1776, King George and Britain was a pretty bad government in terms of freedom and representation, but they are no longer in the picture. This simplistic view of government only serves to stymie what we can accomplish as a society, though. We’ve also shorted ourselves in terms of what our government can accomplish by not participating and allowing marginalized groups to become even more marginalized.
I’ve always considered myself an independent, mostly because neither party represents my view fully. Before 2016, my biggest fear in voting for a Republican would be the open derision of the taxi drivers of the world (let’s call that foreign diplomacy). My biggest fear in voting for a Democrat was that they would take my vote as tacit support of any half-baked scheme they could cook up.
Since 2016, particularly in the wake of Mitch McConnell’s actions, my fear of the right has grown. As a socially liberal person, I would prefer to have a judiciary which functions as the last bastion for the rights of individuals, and now we’ve got the opposite of that. As a person who runs a small business, I would like a little more thoughtfulness about healthcare than what we saw with the ACA, and a whole lot more thoughtfulness than we ever had before that. Mostly, I would like to get back to the place where we quit voting two-party only, and we start talking to one another and trying to find solutions that are on common ground again.
Our conversations in this country have gotten dumber, not smarter. A lot dumber. We have become more tribal and less informed. I have to think that a lot of this would be changed by having everyone vote. We don’t even know what that would look like, it would be so radically different. But I do know who thinks they are benefitting from the suppression of the vote, and they aren’t being silent about it anymore. They are saying the quiet part out loud. We should listen.
There’s been a lot of debate about whether felons should be able to vote. Reasonable people could come out on different sides in this discussion. It could be that felons who’ve served their time and are free again should be able to vote, but even in that case, some states are requiring they pay fines before they can vote. Personally, I’d like to suggest that all felons and prisoners be allowed to vote.
When the goal is to get everyone to vote, we change from gaming the system to get elected to winning in the marketplace of ideas again. To get the vote, you have to care about what the voters, the populace, care about. If you don’t convince them your plans will help them, you don’t win.
I was also recently in Navajo Nation which despite being in Arizona was actually not at all like being in Arizona due to massive Covid outbreaks. They were taking temperatures outside every establishment. They have suffered disproportionately as a result of their separate status. There has been talk about making Navajo Nation a state to improve their representation in US government. Likewise, Puerto Rico, in the wake of being thrown a roll of paper towels by Trump after being devastated by a hurricane, is suddenly discussing voting for statehood, something they have previously opposed.
The last issue with our democracy as a result of this conservative minority that thinks it’s a majority is an incredibly conservative SCOTUS that does not reflect the will of the people. There’s been talk about “court packing” which actually means “court expansion” or adding seats to the SCOTUS so that the representation is more even between conservatives and progressives. However, my opinion is that if we do that, every President will just add more seats, resulting in the same problems all over again. Instead, we should consider two things:
- Term limits of 18 years, resulting in every POTUS appointing two judges per Presidential term. I would not grandfather ANY of them in. Some of them should have been gone ages ago.
- Fully paid retirement so judges will not be mad about retiring. Reducing retirement to half pay is the main reason nobody wants to retire anymore from the bench. They don’t want their pay to be cut.
What do you think?
- Do you agree we should try to get everyone to vote or are you happy to only have 55% of people voting?
- Would you add states to improve representation for indigenous people and territories like Puerto Rico (it’s up to them to vote, but still)?
- Would you allow prisoners to vote? Felons? Why or why not?
- Would you establish national voting process standards for the states to follow or continue to allow states to have their own separate rules? Why or why not?
- Would you support a national election day holiday to get people to vote, making it fun like a party?
- Are you happy with this week’s election process or would you like to see changes? If so, what?
Discuss.
[1] Slavery really is the fundamental American sin, the gift that keeps on giving.
[2] Yes, you can technically be fined ($20). Still, that’s less than the original ACA mandate fee.
Wheat & Tares 
Federal judges who meet the rule of 80 (sum of age plus tenure) retire at 100% salary, no reduction. See 28 U.S.C. 371. So a judge appointed at age 60 can retire at age 70 with 100% salary.
Prisoners? No. Persons whose penalties have been fully satisfied? Okay.
National federally-run popular vote election? No. I am okay with state-run elections and the current process.
Mandatory voting? No. But a holiday? Sure!
Make an Indian reservation a state? Not my preference, but the Constitution does allow for creation of new states.
It would be more efficient at least in theory to nationalize everything but the last 4 years have made me appreciate even more the power individual states have in their own governance. I am surprised more people don’t feel that way.
A bit more information on voting in Australia. We have an Electoral Commision that sets the boundaries, so each vote is worth the same value. In Wyoming it takes 175,000 people to elect a senator, in California 780,000. They also organise the election and count the votes, for all levels of government, and even union elections.
Our elections are always held on a Saturday, most polling places are local schools, and the school P&C takes the opportunity to provide food, usually sausage sandwiches called democracy sausages, as a fundraising opportunity.
Voting is compulsory. You can be fined for not voting. We also have preferential voting, which means you number the candidates in order of your preference. So you can vote 1 for a minor party knowing if they don’t win your vote is then transferred until it gets to count.
You need an electoral commision, they eliminate all questions about the validity of the election.
As well as making all votes of equal value, and ensuring that everyone votes. Thats going to become very appearent over the next weeks, as courts get involved in many ways.
Politics changes completely when it is not the politicans job to get people to vote.
There is also public funding for the each candidate that gets more than 4% of the vote in the seat they are running for of $2.82/ vote. If they recieve any other donations those have to be declared. There is debate about that declaration being in real time, so voters know who has contributed to a candidate, before you vote for them. Like a mining company, property developer or in America the NRA.
On the federal scene, we vote for our local member (congress member) knowing that the party they belong to, if it wins the most seats, forms government, and its leader will be the Prime Minister. The next most popular party becames the opposition and their leader the opposition leader. So we get to see the alternative leader in action, not just the few months before the election. We also have Senators, that are a house of review.
All I can think of at present.
The reason Pennsylvania does not allow mail-in ballots to be counted before election day is so that they can create just the distortion that is happening as I write—the appearance that Trump is ahead so that he can contest the results when all votes are eventually counted. If the right-wing Pennsylvania legislature had allowed early counting, they would not have given Trump a pretext to contest the results. It’s just another instance of the rampant corruption Trump has brought to the GOP (or brought to the surface, since it was always there).
After watching the documentary “13th” I absolutely support voting by those convicted of felonies.
“13th” is a must watch. Our prison system needs to be changed in so many ways.
We are all better off in a fair and just society. Some people may not have *quite* as much money. But they will still be better off.
From the Washington Post: “the average Walmart worker earns less in a year than the Walton family earns in a minute just from dividends paid on the family’s stock holdings” and dividend earnings are taxed at a lower rate than the rate many of us pay for the money we make from actually working.
(Google Washington Post dot com “Does the Walton family earn more in a minute than Walmart workers do in a year?”)
Yes, let everyone vote. Let all votes be equal. Count every vote. Yes yes yes.
I do have one concern about having a National popular vote, and that is the ramifications of having a nation wide recount in the event of a close vote. It would be such a mess. But I’m definitely not a fan off the Electoral College method that gives so much weight discrepancy per vote.
I love and agree with the comment that our conversations in this country are getting dumber. It’s sad. Twitter and Facebook memes don’t help. So this is my new goal: create smarter conversations and dialog. I’ve seen a few people making the effort to have respectful across-the-aisle conversations. Maybe we can make it better.
Geoff-Aus: “Politics changes completely when it is not the politician’s job to get people to vote.” You’ve succinctly restated my thesis far better than I did!
Wally: While the Republican party in PA has a long-standing record of attempting to monitor/disenfranchise votes they don’t like (PA is incredibly divided, FWIW, with the rural areas being the reddest red and metro areas being super blue), this rule of not counting mail in ballots (or any ballots) before election day isn’t new. It’s just highlighted by the huge number of mail in ballots thanks to Covid. Now, why is it that we are all huddled in our houses, terrified of killing grandma while the great leader claims he moved on the virus like a bitch and we just need to “dominate it”?
If we had a law that everyone had to vote, or even if we did a carrot approach (e.g. rather than a fine, give everyone $20 off their tax return if they vote), someone like Trump (or Kanye) could still win. Honestly, it might boost his chances because of an increase in low-information voters who just go with the celebrity name. I still think it would be better than this ridiculous system where politicians are spending so much time trying to game the voter turnout, and where getting the *right* people to go to the polls is more important than the actual discussion of what kind of nation we want to build together. Another very serious problem with our current system that I didn’t address in this post but 100% should have included is that our elections require wealth. You can’t win if you don’t have enough money or fundraise enough, and the existence of these superPACs is also a corrupting influence. Germany, by contrast, gives candidates access to an equal amount of public funding and airtime, and that’s it. It’s not an auction in which the country is both the one buying it and being sold out.
“Low-information voter” … now there’s a bumper sticker to put on someone else’s car. Turns out Wikipedia has a page on it (see link below) and traces the term back to the 1990s, somewhat popularized in the 2010s (but unknown to me until just now). Under “see also” Wikipedia offers anti-science, populism, and useful idiot. In other words, don’t be that voter. Although it seems like lots of voters are, in fact, that voter.
I also like: “Our conversations in this country have gotten dumber, not smarter. A lot dumber. We have become more tribal and less informed.” I’m afraid more tribal and less informed does describe the status quo, but I hope this improves over the next four years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_information_voter
Great post, Hawkgrrrrrrrrrl (the extra “r’s” are free). With you all the way.
Just wanted to share that slavery is still in Utah’s constitution as well as involuntary servitude for certain crimes. Now, there are other laws against these things – but language remains.
There was a ballot measure this year to remove this language from the state constitution.
18% voted to keep these provisions in the constitution.
Please, everyone, speculate on how that can be.
It is reported here that 67% of mormons voted for Trump. We have members here ridiculing other members who are not trump supporters. It is now looking like Biden will win, but trump supporters see that as fraud.
Last week two new judges were appointed to our high court. Don’t know their names or politics, they were replacing 2 who were retired at 70. One was a woman. They are expected to be impartial.
Geoff,
It is possible that some Latter-day Saints in the US might have voted for Mr. Trump, but I cannot have any confidence in the 67% figure you cite. CNN tells me Mr. Trump only got 58% of the Utah vote and some portion of them were likely non-members.
Anyway, I support the privilege of Latter-day Saints everywhere in the world to vote for candidates of their own choosing from among the slate that is available to them — I would never seek to take that privilege away from them, or to dictate how they should vote. And, I will not think less of a Latter-day Saint for voting for one candidate or the other. I recommend such an approach to yiu. Between you deploring fellow Latter-day Saints who vote for Mr. Trump and other members there with you in Australia who ridicule fellow Latter-day Saints who don’t support Mr. Trump, well, it might be best for all of you to obsess less about US politics. I am glad the election is over.
BeenThere: 18% is a really, really low number at the ballot box. It’s not zero, but it’s more similar to zero than a linear number line would suggest (i.e., it’s closer to zero than, say, 68% is to 50%). That’s just the nature of normal distributions, where most results hang around the middle – and 18% is way, way far from the middle. In Madison County, Idaho (which is both the most Republican and most Mormon county in the nation) Mitt Romney won only 80-something % of the caucus in 2012.
I’m not sure exactly why this happens in terms of voter behavior. But I suspect it has to do with roughly 20% of any given electorate being some combination of contrarian, unreasonable, mistaken, misled, masochistic, and extremely-low-information voters. This differs from legislative bodies (like Congress) that routinely have unanimous votes: there, voting members are 1) required to engaged in debate on the topic before voting, 2) on the record about their vote, and 3) electorally responsible for it. The voting public is none of those things.
But yeah, I’m anti-slavery, so I’d have been in the 82%.
Ji, My point was not to condemn the 67% of mormons voting for trump; I too believe they are entitled to their vote. Trump is not seen as moral, truthfull, or anything positive by most Australians. So the majority of mormons voting for him indicates a moral problem. Missionary work was already a struggle, this will not improve that.
I hope you will be equally dismayed at trump trying to stop legally cast votes from being counted.
We are interested because it affects us. Much of our trade is with china. Much of that is being cut off because of trumps trade war. If we get a biden government there is hope that climate change will be addressed. So many other things. One of our main political parties said they would be downgrading relations with America if Trump was reelected, he has done so much damage to Australia.
E–it’s a legitimate worry for a corrupt president to have too much power. Decentralizing power may help, but I suspect a more meaningful solution is to put in place better anti corruption measures at all levels of government, as some other countries have. In countries where corruption flourishes, corruption happens at all levels of government and can be difficult to combat.
Consider the book “Thieves of State: Why Corruption Threatens Global Security” by Sarah Chayes.
Geoff, Where does your 67% figure come from? I don’t believe 67% of Latter-day Saints have a moral problem, as you judgingly allege, and as best as I can tell, Mr. Trump only got 58% of the Utah vote. That figure 58% is from CNN.
Mormons comprise 62% of the population in Utah. It’s fair to say a majority of Mormons in UT voted for Trump. August 2020 Gallup reported Mormons gave Trump a 60% approval rating “so far, this year.”
Trump also enjoys favorable ratings from Evangelicals.
And
Last week, (Mormon)Senator Mike Lee representing UT, likened Trump to Captain Moroni.
I can’t imagine that will help the Church’s missionary effort.
The election and support of Trump has me re-examining and reevaluating the role of organized religion in society. I view one of church’s benefits to society is that it should help us become better people—more honest, charitable etc. But none of those traits or values are exhibited by Trump.
He is the antithesis of everything moral and decent. There is no way I would ever vote for such a person, no matter what party they represented.
Trump has severely damaged not only our world-wide reputation, but also undermined our national security, our national health, our faith in the democratic process etc etc
He is a real danger to our country.
Never, ever in my life could I’ve imagined such an unfit person becoming POTUS.
I believe we arrived at this point in part due to modern media. Years ago, we were all listening to Walter Cronkite and dealing with the same set of facts. Not so anymore. Now we live on different planets with different versions of reality.
Heaven help us.
Billy Possum – academically speaking 18% on a ballot issue may be a low number. But putting it in context does deliver some shock factor.
I live on a short block. There are 26 voting-age people on my street. 18% of them would mean that 4-5 neighbors (18 and up) think keeping slavery in the constitution is the thing to do. This isn’t about municipal water rights – it’s about owning another human being, even if it is vestigial.
Imagine being a Black person, like my daughter, at the mall, a restaurant, a store, or church knowing that 18% of voters opted to keep slavery in the constitution. Which one thinks that way about me? That is hard to shake.
Ji, the 67% figure is from the Australian BC, and has nothing to do with what proportion of Utah mormons are, 67% of them voted trump. They also said 80% of evangelicans voted trump.
You seem to think it is noble to not judge. I think we are responsible to judge, and if we see evil being perpetrated we should oppose it.
I believe if people vote for trump they are voting for evil. Quarter of a million covid deaths and rising, but no solution, or apology. Undermining democracy, and so much more.
He is trying to get vote counting stopped if they don’t support him. But will then not accept the court’s ruling. Attempting to destroy institutions that are necessary for democracy.
If people can’t recognise evil there is a moral problem. If people refuse to make that judgement there is a moral problem. Judgement required.
I live in Switzerland, which current constitution was inspired both by the US constitution and our own history. We have votations about every quarter (the people weighing in on contentious bills or public initiatives) and the standard is having our ballots sent in a few weeks in advance by mail, and then the possibility either to mail them in, or drop them at the city hall before the election or vote in person on votation days (usually a sunday). I haven’t heard anyone complain about it, to us, it beats the tradition of gathering in the town plaza and voting by hand. We do get about 50-65% participation rate though.
I’ve figured that there are a few key differences that make our system work. First of all, we don’t elect our executive. Parliament does it every year, and it follows the magic rules of having between one and two represantatives of each major party in place. So there is a strong culture of discussing across the aisle, doing the opposite tends to be viewed in a negative light.
We also have very few career politicians, most have a career outside of politics. So we tend not to feel too distant from our elect. They could be anyone of us, rather then members of a cast.
I’m not sure if a system that works for a small country like ours would be transposable to the U.S. It still has flaws, change in policies take a long time, though not as long as anything from Salt Lake 🙂 and there is a strong disparity between city and countryside and german-speaking vs french speaking regions, in political affiliation and power that hasn’t been resolved. But I think that being able to reach consensus, and the elect being in touch with the rest of the population have a huge part to play in a sane and productive government.
One of my fears, as an outsider, with the US election, is to see the corrosive elements of this season take seed in my neck of the woods.
The USA has not yet adjusted to social media, and it has temporarily routed our better angels. It’s like 24 hour pro wrasslin – we can’t take our eyes off the people in the ring smacking each other with folding chairs. Many of us are actually addicted to that little screen, and the shameless Right has really mastered the medium because it’s simple, seems like a shortcut to higher knowledge or virtue, and provides the same little dopamine bounce as a slot machine.
The LDS embrace of Korihor-like figures Nixon, Cheney and, worst of all, Trump, signals an institutional decline initiated unwittingly by ETB and accelerating to this day. I fear that $100B will only further insulate the leadership from the consequences of the dreadful calls they’ve made over the last 40 years. Where does it end? – a shrunken cadre of true believers hunkered down & waiting for The End somewhere in the Rockies? If so, what a waste! We have much to offer the modern world, but our beliefs/actions (voting patterns) must comport w/ both reality & goodness.
Ji–if you see danger but I don’t, I hope you will care enough to point to it until I see it. Right after the 2016 election what did we hear from Pres. Nelson? Focus on being like Christ.
There’s a reason Pres. Nelson asked the church, who are mainly Republican, do we know how to get revelation? How to discern the Truth? How not to be deceived? Do you have any idea how many Utah Mormons get conned in money making schemes? It is an ongoing problem and the church doesn’t want us electing a demagogue–because they just did.
In 2016, Uchtdorf talked constantly about fleeing Fascism as a child and the Berlin Wall. He had a cartoon video of it on the church website.
The church keeps telling us to vote for the candidate who best embodies gospel principles. Not policy or political party. Why? Because voting one party only every time and you run the risk of voting for a demagogue. Choose the best person of the two. I think it was Elder Hales who made the unscripted comment after the 2016 election, that you don’t vote on one issue alone (like abortion.) Why? Because you can wind up voting for a demagogue if you refuse to consider the other candidate.
The German Saints were good people. Did they know when Hitler was rising that this man was different from all others? Not the majority of them. Even J. Reuben Clark, in the First Presidency at the time here in the U.S. was absolutely clueless about Hitler, expecting he was normal.
People can be wrong. When I’ve been wrong, I’m glad someone told me differently–and that I was willing to hear and reconsider. I’m thankful people like Geoff-Aus keep speaking out.
mez,
I will not condemn 1930’s German Latter-day Saints as evil or morally deficient. Similarly, I will not condemn present Latter-day Saints as evil or morally deficient for choosing to vote differently than Geoff Aus requires them to.
I am fine with Geoff having an opinion on who would be the better choice. But I see it as uncharitable for him to declare that all Latter-day Saints who do not effect his choice are perpetrating evil or have moral problems (his words). Rather, I sustain the principle of allowing and encouraging every Latter-day Saint to carefully make his or her own voting decision — and regardless of that voting decision, I will still offer him or her full fellowship as Latter-day Saints. I do not want political divisiveness to enter our church environment.
If Geoff wants to support one candidate over another, that’s fine. But it dismays me when he speaks of Latter-day Saints who don’t follow his counsel as perpetrating evil and having moral problems (his words). It dismays me when anyone claims that God is on one side or the other in a partisan election. I believe an honest and faithful Latter-day Saint can choose to vote for either Mr. Trump or Mr. Biden.
“ I believe an honest and faithful Latter-day Saint can choose to vote for either Mr. Trump or Mr. Biden.”
Just not true, ji, the former doing his level best to undermine the democratic process AS WE SPEAK 8:31 a.m. Do you have a TV? Did you witness his grotesque lies last night?
Adding insult to injury most of this megalomaniac’s LDS supporters will claim to have been inspired to vote for him – which throws doubt on the entire Mormon project. That’s over half the faith’s voting population. If they can be so blindingly wrong about this, what else are they wrong about?
p, I do not watch TV. I am dismayed by Mr. Trump’s histrionics — indeed, I am dismayed by histrionics from all sources, including saying that church members who voted one way or the other are perpetuating evil or are morally problematic. I am most dismayed by seeing church members choosing to hate other church members based on political differences. If a LDS supporter of Mr. Trump claimed God’s support for that voting decision, I would question that assertion — but I haven’t seen that in this forum — even so, I have never declared a preference for either candidate. I wouldn’t want any member to claim Heb. 1:9 for him- or herself with regards to the presidential election. Let’s keep God out of the argument.
@ji said, ” I do not want political divisiveness to enter our church environment.”
Me neither, but it’s already there. ETB brought it and it’s stuck around. For every LDS democrat complaining about LDS Trump supporters, you have 2 LDS Republicans who think Democrats are evil socialists and who assume that all good Mormons are Republicans.
There are exceptions, many, in each of those groups but it’s definitely there.
I think the Church should be politically neutral but the problem is that it’s largely the Church’s fault that we’re as red as we are, so being “neutral” leaves that legacy in place. I think leaders need to come out stronger against people who seem to think that all Mormons should be Republicans — they need to own the Church’s part in that cultural legacy and overtly refute it.
The last 4 years living in Utah has done more to disconnect me with my Church community than anything. I try very hard to be open-minded and not demonize the other side, but it starts to feel like a one-way street where I’m not afforded the same courtesy.
(I totally get this is a Utah problem more than a Mormon problem. But it’s my reality currently.)
It’s not just a Utah problem. My ward is very conservative (southern + military + LDS is a bad combo), and I’m just tired of it. This election cycle was the worst I’ve experienced in almost 20 years. I don’t ever need to hear the SS president “joke” that the Lord would clearly excuse wanting to punch [political candidate I just voted for in the primary]’s supporters as He sees that as righteous anger, no matter where I live. The hearty responses of “Hear! Hear!” and “Amen!” from several others in the class just added to the feeling that I don’t belong there.
Any statement from a General Authority that I see as pushing back against these JBS tendencies is twisted around and explained away as the exact opposite, but that church leadership can’t come out and say it directly because they’re coddling the snowflake liberals who haven’t left yet. I go to church functions, I serve my ward members, and I serve with them so that I don’t lose sight of their good qualities and humanity. However, I have never felt more like they wouldn’t want me there if they actually knew me. I already am marginalized or straight up ignored when I make comments trying to turn discussions from how evil the world is (and how vastly more righteous church members are) to the Atonement and individually trying to become more like Christ. Why would I expose myself any more?
Ji–How does one keep God out of morals? Government policy, yes. This president has no moral compass. It is deceptive to think otherwise a–oh, how I wish that were not so but it is.
As I said, I believe good people vote differently and will be wrong due to human frailty.
That is all the more reason to keep pointing to a danger.
I have been stunned as you and all of us are, with the hating one another that has gone on since the 1980’s with the Moral Majority and hate talk radio. I knew back then that this would come to no good if not stopped with love.
I suggest people go to the Anti-Defamation League website and install the free AP News app for truthful pertinent information without the histrionics. The ADL has to know who is doing what because Jewish lives depend on it. The Associated Press is where journalists get their information.
ji: I do respect your contrary opinion here, and I’m glad you are participating. I think most Trump-supporters *believe* that they are doing what’s a moral choice, even though very few (although there are some) would say that Trump is a good person or a moral person. The problem with removing the caution to only vote for those who are ethical is that when you support an immoral candidate to achieve moral aims, you are saying that the ends justify the means. This is a problem that has surfaced throughout Mormon history in events like MMM and polygamy and slavery and so forth. People always think they are trying to achieve what they believe are good aims. Steve Bannon even thinks he’s promoting a good cause when he calls for Dr. Fauci to be beheaded. But the ends don’t justify the means. That’s the point of democracy. We have to abide by laws. We have to count all the votes. We have to abide by the outcomes. We can’t just assert that our will is happening, even if it’s been voted out.
Watching the Evangelicals in the area I live has been incredibly discouraging. They are basically losing their damn minds over this election, particularly at the idea that AZ might go blue despite their enthusiastic Trump trains, showing up at the election hall chanting while being armed to the teeth, and their consistent vandalism of Biden Harris signs with words like “HI TAX” and “ANTIFA.” For sure the phrase “weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth” was written for them. I’m honestly not sure I can go to Church in this new ward until after they get a grip. I don’t want this to my first impression of these people.
Ji–I welcome you here too. The frustration you hear comes from years of LDS liberals hearing LDS conservatives think it’s righteous to hate liberals. At BYU, my daughter was asked whether she was a “filthy Democrat”. I lost two LDS friends who wouldn’t speak to me anymore because I find Trump abhorrent and they think he’s saving America from the Democrats who want to destroy it.
Socializing outside church with them, it’s constant hate talk about those liberals–as if I’m not there or surely I agree with them. These people would vote for Hitler as long as he was against the Democrats and frankly, Trump has only exacerbated that ill will.
Yes, it’s wrong to hate anyone. It’s wrong to consider your fellow ward members not like you because they are liberal. It’s wrong to get comfortable with hate –and vote for it. Half of the church is told by the Savior to depart because they never knew Him. Imagine half of your ward, half of every ward.
They’re stunned because they’ve done everything in His name and had no inkling they might be in the half He finds lacking and leaves behind to burn with the wicked. Why? These were good people who thought they were on His side. They were faithful members who did everything. So what’s the problem –why doesn’t the Atonement cover them? They don’t really know Him. Since they were looking forward to His coming and spent their lives doing His good works, it’s my opinion that it must be their hearts are not right. They don’t look and see themselves in others who are different from them. They viewed their brothers and sisters, all God’s children in “us vs. them” terms. If we are found with Charity at the last day, all will be well with us. Charity covers a multitude of sins. If we lack it, we lack cover. And who among us frail human beings doesn’t need more Charity than what we currently possess?
The hate has to stop but it won’t. The scripture foretells that half don’t make it. Pres. Nelson telling us anything won’t change that prophecy. If we need a prophet to be explicit , “the best person to vote for is:____________.” Then everything we have ever been told has been for naught. Why should we be told anything more?
Ji, It is not about whether people agree with me. Usually you might say elections are about choosing between two philosophies. Trump is a different situation. Before the 2016 he said and did things that I saw as problematic. But during the last 4 years he has spent his time undermining, the instituions, and culture that makes America a democracy, undermining a free press, undermining the security, undermining any science, undermining truth/fact, encouraging racism and white supremacy, making inequality worse, and creating division everywhere. And a quarter of a million lives that republican don’t care about. During the election saying he would only accept the election result if he won. Shouldn’t that set bells wringing?
With all this evidence a large proportion of members still voted for him. Many other republicans did not because they saw the moral problem. Judging from the election count many others also voted against trump, as much as for biden. Most of the reasons I hear members give for continuing to be republicans first and ignore the gospel of Christ, are lies, as is most of Trumps teachings, but they are acceptable to a large proportion of members. I call that a moral problem, you call that judgement on my behalf. Do we have responsibility to not believe lies? Is it a problem if we spread lies. Bearing false witness?
You say those who voted for Hitler did not display a moral deficit. As far as I am aware there was not an election 4 years into hitlers programme, and whether the German people knew what he was doing. So not comparable.
I remember discussions in my youth about whether truth, or right and wrong (the gospel of Christ) were absolute or relative, and variable according to circumstances. We always concluded absolute. The members who voted for trump think differently. Or at least act differently.
I heard Oaks give advice in conference, but appearently that was not recieved where needed.
That all adds up to a big moral problem to me. The problem is not that people did not do what I wanted, but that they did not do what was morally right. They voted for more immorality.
What really upsets me is I doubt most LDS people are even aware of who Steve Bannon is and what he represents. They voted for a POTUS who brought the former editor of Breitbart –an Alt Right news source–to serve in his Chief of Staff. “Alt Right “is a euphemism for white supremacist.
Was that immoral? Foolish? Wrong? Poor judgment to vote for a president who would bring a white supremacist into the White House? You bet. It was a sin.
Let’s make one thing clear: the rise of political division in the US is mostly attributable to Trump, Trumpism, and Trump-inspired conservative intransigence and tribalism. Democrats and liberals have long been willing to extend the olive branch and meet in the middle. But Trump forced conservatism to make a hard right turn after it had already made a hard right turn with the Tea Party.
I’ll agree with Angela C and Just Me above — it’s not just a Utah problem. I think it’s a problem anywhere there are Mormons, with just a few exceptions in college towns and progressive enclaves. I suspect that the leadership doesn’t recognize this is a problem at all. “There’s a neutrality policy that we circulate before every election,” they likely say, ignoring the reality of Life On Sunday for the average Mormon. That’s like saying “we don’t have a speeding problem on our California freeways” and pointing to the 65 mph signs as evidence there is no speeding.
Some senior leaders talk about a “gospel culture,” as if that is different from Mormon culture or Utah culture. Hey, it’s pretty much all the same thing. The worst thing is the leadership is not only blind to the problem, they have largely caused the problem by politicizing the Church.
There’s also the problem noted by sociologists that over the last generation Americans have shifted from fashioning their political views in light of their religious beliefs to, instead, choosing their religious affiliations in light of their politics. You can see how that has become a problem within the LDS Church. It is only a small exaggeration to say that it has become more like a political party that holds meetings on Sunday than a church that, from time to time, takes a position on “moral issues.”
@John W and @Dave B – 100%. Esp the political identity vs religious identity point, which makes it so that progressive Mormons tend not to feel like a real part of their church communities except in a few enclaves.
I don’t at all mind when people express views different from mine. What I do mind, and what I try extremely hard to avoid, is when people express their view as if it is the most obvious thing in the world and that naturally everyone in the room agrees with them. That puts everyone who doesn’t agree into an out-group and stifles genuine discussion. And it is, as Dave B put it, Life on Sunday. (And Life on Wednesdays, where in my ward there’s a big divide between people who think it’s Ok to have youth activities in Utah County with no masks and no social distancing and people who suggest we ought to wear masks or at least tell people we aren’t wearing masks so they can make an informed decision about whether to come. Except, I’m the only person in all of YM and YW leadership on Team Mask. Sorry, another tangent, just my life again.)
I also think it’s a huge stretch to call the church leadership politically neutral. Sure, you don’t endorse a candidate or political party (like ETB did in the 60’s-80’s). But on nearly every issue on which the church does express an opinion – whether formally, like gay marriage and medical marijuana, or informally, like Bednar resurrecting Benson’s anti-welfare quotes – that opinion aligns with conservative politics. And many of their teachings, like the primary of the heteronormative nuclear family, likewise align with conservative politics. So they’ve got their heads in the sand if they think they can credibly claim political neutrality and I think they need to do real work to restore neutrality if they want to hold on to a more diverse membership and they want to help heal their own communities.
Catch-all calls to unite on Christ’s culture are meaningless if they don’t identify concrete ways that needs to happen. They are inkblots that conservatives will interpret to mean that liberals need to abandon their “socialism”.
Elisa, I’m in Davis County, and I feel your pain.
I’ve sat in Gospel Doctrine where the teacher referred to the ACLU as the Anti Christ Lovers Union to roaring laughter from the class, and sat in a Stake meeting where a recently released GA taught us if we didn’t vote for Romney it could be the end of America.
Hang in there!
We certainly aren’t outwardly celebrating Biden’s victory in my neighborhood.
Re: John W’s assertion that Democrats and liberals have long been willing to extend an olive branch and meet in the middle.
Speaking as a person who has breathed a sigh of relief that Biden has been declared the winner, and we can shortly begin to try and return to a sense of relatively normalcy and decency, I will merely note:
John W has what I think is a very distorted and rose -colored perception of the purported nobility of Democrats and liberals. They have been in a state of Trump Derangement Syndrome for the last four years, and have been quite uncooperative.
Hey, I get it: as a former conservative and former Republican who loathes Trump, so have I been in this same derangement syndrome—Trump has been so awful. But the awfulness of Trump does not ipso facto make his opponents good.
Beware of assuming that the people with whom you share a set of beliefs and goals (in this case political) are virtuous. I guarantee that you will come across charlatans in your camp. (We see that in the Church with people who have been scammed by other members who used their Church connections for wicked purposes.)
In the meantime, I am just rejoicing in Biden’s victory. I will probably disagree with most of what he will do, but he understands that decency is important, and our Republic will benefit from that.
We had “The daydawn is breaking” for our opening hymn at church today. The daydawn is breaking the clouds of nights darkness are fleeing away
Coincidence
Geoff-Aus:
Love it! Might I suggest, “The Morning Breaks, the Shadows Flee”?
Something to remember,
Churches can lose their tax exempt status if they endorse particular candidates.
However, they can weigh in on issues.
“ Except, I’m the only person in all of YM and YW leadership on Team Mask.”
No wonder UT is experiencing a big hike in Covid cases…
Have just watched Kamala Harris and Joe Biden victory speeches, very impressive. No sleepy joe present.
The culture around sexism, racism, etc. are going to change very quickly. Good thing the church started on racism, but they are going to feel the pressure on sexism very soon.
The attitude to women and the priesthood, and discrimination against lgbti folk, is going to become much less acceptable over the next few years.
@Lois I get that. I don’t think anyone is suggesting the church endorse a candidate or party.
The church could easily more explicitly address that Democrats can be good mormons and Republican Mormons need to understand and welcome that. That doesn’t at all threaten tax exempt status.
As for Covid, yep, unfortunately here it’s a political issue not a health issue and and masks are about personal freedom rather than compassion. Pretty baffling. I understand people who say that the government shouldn’t force people to wear masks. I don’t understand people who say that we aren’t going to wear masks at Church activities because they don’t want anti-maskers to feel uncomfortable. OK – so we’ll pander to the anti-maskers at the expense of those who can’t or shouldn’t attend unsafe activities because of health concerns. Makes no sense. Oh well.
Do I want to add states like Puerto Rico or one to improve representation of indigenous people?
A: Puerto Rico has had multiple votes to NOT apply to be a US state. Democracy is working there. This is a desperate power play/rhetorical device to placate the far-left partisans. Also, my current state governor is a member of a large Indian tribe. Plenty of representation when you have tribal members as governors, US senators, cabinet members, etc.
I am amazed at the crazy propaganda repeated by some commentators on this site. Dave B., there are plenty of examples of low information voters here in the comments. Some blame President Trump for all of the Covid deaths in the country, yet he took effective action to slow the spread of the virus in January with many democrats, including Biden, speaking against restricting travel from China. Policies of democrat governors, like Cuomo in NY, added 10’s of thousands of deaths. These are not to be blamed on Trump. With a hypothetical President Biden in charge and more democrat governors, there would likely have been many more Covid deaths, plus the economy would be much worse.
Another propaganda point I have seen is about Trump empowering racists and even white supremacists. Yet Senator Biden voted over a dozen times to empower a known white supremacist as senate majority leader and President pro-tempore (3rd in line for the Presidency). Biden has a history of racist statements and decisions and was even called out by Kamala Harris in the primaries as such. There is far more evidence of racism from Biden than from Trump.
Also, for those who are interested, I voted for President Trump for the first time this week. I do not like a leader who is being paid by foreign governments, like Biden probably has been. President Trump, for all his many faults, has tried to keep his campaign promises and has been vilified and slandered repeatedly. What has Biden promised and what has he done and will he do (if he really does win as many are now projecting)?
Another point, maybe I am just fortunate, but I hear almost zero political comments over the pulpit and in classes in my ward. With the many fewer opportunities this year, this may have been more common in other wards. I recall being very relieved at hearing no political comment the Sunday before election day in 2012 when Romney ran against Obama. I do not know of any ward member who voted for Obama that year, but there was still no mention at church of the election that week.
el oso, In your world, who won the election?
El oso, you’re a complete loon. You contribute nothing to the discussion. Shut up and get lost.
John W. I typically really like your comments and really appreciate your views on so many issues. I do think that even though there’s anonymity in these comments we need to treat other commenters with respect. I sincerely hope you will do that more consistently in the future. I disagree profoundly with el oso but still feel a need to either ignore the comments or respectfully address the concerns (and I think there’s a case to be made for simply ignoring comments like those from el oso–when they turn into back and forth discussions they detract from the larger conversation).
Geoff-Aus,
It is unclear yet to me if Biden has won. I would note that there are mainstream US sites that have not yet called the election for Biden, Real Clear Politics is one of those.
John W,
Sorry if you cannot see that my first paragraph addressed several of Hawkgrrl’s questions in the OP with facts that many might not be aware of. Is pointing out the political history of Puerto Rico a lunatic offering for this site? I did have a recent close coworker who was a native of Puerto Rico and probably know more about their political leanings than the average commenter.
el oso, looks like your precious Real Clear Politics, a right-wing site that people only reference because of it regularly posts a large swath of polling data but other than that is not a mainstream news site, has called the election. Ooh, you posted some “facts.” Someone deserves a pat on the head and a doggy treat. I’m glad you have a token Puerto Rican “friend.” Child.
Democracy is inherently totalitarian. The 51 percent tells the 49 percent what to do, what not to do; in fact, there’s no reason for the minority to even show up at a Supreme Court nomination hearing.
It is probably why pretty much only Democrats call the United States a Democracy. It is a republic; which is sort of a coalition of small democracies rather than one big one. This mayor or that governor can go totalitarian but the danger and damage is confined to a smaller area and perhaps the very people that elected this person.
As I remember it, the citizens of Venezuela voted for their socialism. They wouldd probably un-vote for it but that’s no longer on the ballot.
I really don’t see how a many that almost never campaigned could possibly win an election over a man whose crowds were enormous. Yeah, well, actually I do see how it can happen.
“The most recent reason we don’t ditch this antiquated approach is that Republicans benefit from it (at the expense of the will of the people), and it’s in the Constitution. Trying to get something like this changed is usually an exercise in futility, even though nearly everyone who looks at it agrees it would be a more fair way to approach elections.”
As you can see, this time around Democrats have benefited hugely from the Electoral College. That’s largely because of California “winner take all” system; if only 51 percent of votes go to Biden, it is no different than 100 percent of votes going to Biden! Republicans might as well not vote in California. Or live there. Of course it is the reverse in Utah, but Utah has 5 or is it 6 electoral votes to California’s 55 votes.
The purposes of the Electoral college are simple to understand. As designed, each STATE voted for presidents; “the people” did not vote for presidents. It ensured that low-population states had at least a voice in national elections. More importantly it also allowed for some last-minute wisdom;535 electors are the people that actually choose the president, not you or me. They can choose to elect whoever they want if they have good reason for it.
I mean, really, 350 million people deciding who is going to be Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces? How many people on this blog have military experience, have any qualifications whatsoever to make that kind of decision?
What you get is what you deserve, unfortunately I suffer because of your choices. In Venezuela almost everyone suffers while the president THEY ELECTED lives in luxury.
It is impossible to know with accuracy whether every vote has been counted, and for whom. The fraudulent votes this time around number in the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, with Pennsylvania showing how it is done (*) But with an electoral college, all of that is MOOT. It is easy to count 535 votes, and you know who voted and for whom. Fraud is almost impossible with a small group of electors and accountability is assured.
* Some of the strategies include you need to know which mail-in ballots weren’t delivered (or picked up by residents) and thus can thus be repurposed. That would be the Postal Union, strong supporters of the Democratic Party.
Biden may have won anyway; I cannot imagine why but there’s a reason “sheep” are the metaphor for human beings. Venezuela, step aside. There’s a new socialism coming and her name is President Kamala Harris, attorney general of California, adept at getting her way and not telling the truth.
But it is possible that Trump did actually win the popular vote if only legally cast votes are counted. Maybe we will learn the truth of it, probably not. You have seen how mean and vicious the Democrats have been during all this, how ungraceful in their gloating and plans to obtain revenge on their enemies, the 72 million Americans (plus or minus a few million) that dared vote against them.
I know we aren’t supposed to argue among ourselves but I feel a desire to response to Geoff-Aus
“But during the last 4 years he has spent his time undermining, the instituions, and culture that makes America a democracy”
America is not and has never been a “democracy”; so in a sense, big thank you for resisting “democracy”! The United States has some democratic features, but the “tyranny of the majority” is limited by a republican form of government, division of powers, checks and balances; none of which exist in “democracy”.
“undermining a free press”
That would be the Democrats doing that sort of thing, deciding who gets to speak on Facebook or Twitter, or be indexed on Google. Perhaps you meant by “free press” the corporate mouthpieces labeled CNN, ABC (our ABC, not yours), NBC and so on. They are still “free” to say whatever their corporate CEO’s want said. Trump is free to label is “fake news” and quite often so it is; but really, most of the time it simply isn’t news.
“undermining the security”
Of what?
“undermining any science”
Science is truth. Science cannot be undermined. Truth cannot be undermined. Oh, but you probably meant the Deacons of Science, they will tell you what to believe and you will believe it because Science! It is the new religion. There is always religion.
Now if you can recite from memory the Krebs cycle, or exactly how calcium and sodium ion channels facilitate nerve transduction, or in what manner RNA differs from DNA and why that’s important to viral replication, then maybe you have a bit of claim on the secret rituals and incantations of the Priesthood of Science.
“undermining truth/fact”
I am fascinated, astonished and often alarmed by the tunnel vision of those who seem to think Trump or Republicans are at at fault; how quickly you forget Kamala Harris’ explanation for her lying about Biden, “It was a DEBATE!” as if that excuses lying; or Dr Fauci’s excuse for lying about face masks (but is he lying NOW?). Police and prosecutors are not required at law to the tell the truth. Kamala is a prosecutor; she will will feel no guilt at lying.
“encouraging racism and white supremacy”
Got evidence? I didn’t think so. Of course theses words no longer have meaning. Biden has made far more comments that are indisputably racist, a recent example being “If you cannot figure out who to vote for, you ain’t black” and “Hispanics are a lot less predictable”.
“making inequality worse”
That would be the corporate sponsors of the Democratic party now on the short list to be on his “cabinet”.
“and creating division everywhere”
That would be you proclaiming the enemy where the enemy has not proclaimed itself. That would be the Democratic Party making a list of enemies and how to punish them, combing through Facebook posts to decide who should be fired from their employment. Presumably without benefits. How many right here on this page would do that? Nearly everyone. Moral purity is strong with the left; certain thoughts and expressions are socially approved, everything else is forbidden.
“And a quarter of a million lives that republican don’t care about.”
Make it nearly 7 billion; a similar number to the lives YOU care about (or not). Perhaps you can share an example of your caring. Tell you what; if you will give me a few billion dollars, I will show you some caring 🙂 But with 7 billion human, even the richest man on Earth could give each only a few dollars and then it is GONE.
The movie “Interstellar” has it right; one way or another Earth is doomed. Humans must eventually leave Earth or become extinct. We cannot do it “equal” There must be a concentration of talent, of resource, of wealth; to get anything done. Throughout human history it is the exceptional person that advances the human race; we don’t all advance together. We have names for many: Louis Pasteur, Thomas Edison, George Washington, Jesus Christ.
In Mormonism a worthy goal is “There were no poor among them” but that’s not the same as everyone being “equal”. It was okay to seek to be wealthy provided your intention is to do good thereby; rather like Bill Gates.
“sodium ion channels facilitate nerve transduction, ”
My mistake; it is potassium that is important in nerve transduction. Calcium is used to reset the ions for the next impulse that comes along. This is why if your body gets short of calcium you’ll get an inability to relax your muscles, you’ll get painful spasms or worse. It is so crucial that your body will take calcium from bones if that’s the only place it can find calcium. The nerve impulse isn’t electrical, it is chemical although the sudden transition of ionization state will produce a tiny electrical signal that can be detected.