I released two interesting episodes last week. I finished up my interview with Jana Riess and Ben Knoll, and started a new interview with Elder Steven Snow of the 1st Quorum of Seventy, and Church Historian!
First, I asked Jana and Ben, what are the biggest takeaways leaders of the Mormon Church can take away from the largest public survey of Mormon attitudes?
GT: Let’s just pretend that the brethren are here, and you can tell them anything. What would you tell them?
Jana: You have to have equal representation of women. You cannot continue having meetings in which decisions are made that affect women’s lives directly without a woman in the room, at least one woman in the room. And not just a little token woman who like, in the leaked video that I was talking about, at the very end, like in the last two-minute Hail Mary pass of the meeting, someone asks for Sister Beck’s opinion. She gives it. The meeting breaks up, no one even responds to what she said. I mean, it’s entire tokenism to have her there, to ask her opinion and then totally disregard it. So yes, that’s hugely important. It’s important to women.
There are a couple of different narratives that I think we need to keep in mind. The narrative that the church wants us to believe, is what Gordon B Hinckley said, which is “Mormon women are happy, and they’re happy with their role.” Statistically, he’s right. Because most Mormon women who are still in the church don’t seem to have a problem. Younger women are a bit different. But the majority of Mormon women are fairly satisfied, apparently, with their roles in the church. The other part of the story, though, the other narrative that needs to also be told is that women’s roles ranked as the third most common reason for leaving for all women. So, for some women, this was an important enough issue that it was a catalyst to their departure, and we need to keep that in mind as well. We can’t just say that Mormon women are happy with the way things are, because if you weren’t happy, you’re gone. What would you say?
Benjamin: So I suppose in addition to that which I agree with, would be that all humans are subject to our cognitive biases and the way we see the world. We tend to take our experience as the norm and project it on to everyone else’s experience. Good faith people who are in leadership positions, of course, don’t intend to do that, but often times do it. And I’m just as guilty like everyone, that’s what we do, right? That’s what human beings do. One thing that this research offers is an opportunity to hear about what the experience is like from people who don’t match your own experience. And that’s really hard, and I like that some church leaders, like Patrick Mason wrote in his book Planted, he’s like, “I get it.” Right? From a leadership position, this worked for you your whole life. You’ve always felt happy here. Why could anyone possibly be upset? Or why would they not want to be here?
There’s just a lack of awareness on their part, not through anyone’s fault, but just simply because we all have different lived experiences. Could we take things from here and incorporate those kinds of messages, and carefully consider them non-defensively and think, “Okay, my experience might not be this, but this is experience that maybe not a majority, but that a critical mass of membership are experiencing. What could we do to create spaces where they feel like they’re fitting in better, even if that means that we perhaps need to change what we emphasize, or give greater room for those kinds of voices to be represented in both decision making, as well as scriptural interpretation? Or how we’re applying the stories about what it means to be a Mormon in today’s world or Latter-day Saints, etc.” Things like that, that would be one of the pieces of advice I could humbly and constructively offer.
Jana’s comments were more controversial than I thought (at least on my YouTube comment section.) Do you agree or disagree with her?
Then, I am excited to have our first LDS General Authority on the show! (Although we have had an apostle and Seventy from the Community of Christ, as well as member of First Presidency from the Remnant Church!) We’ll get more acquainted with Elder Steven Snow in this first episode, and I’ll ask him about his favorite stories in Church history.
Elder Snow: I will continue to be the Church Historian until August 1, and then I will be officially released at October conference, but my duties finish up August 1.
GT : One of the big questions that I get delving into Mormon history, and so I’d like to pose this to you is, how can you maintain a testimony and know all this church history?
Elder Snow: Well, that’s a very interesting question, and I hear it too. For me, the more I learned about our history, as a church, it actually strengthens my testimony. The more I learn, the more respect I have for those that went before and the hard things they did, that were driven by their faith, many of these accomplishments. I just find it very inspiring. Now, there are situations and experiences in the past that sometimes are sensationalized by others online. I really believe in studying things in the context of time and place and trying to understand what was going on. But at the same time, understanding the big picture. If you get too wrapped up with non-consequential issues, then it’s hard to progress, and so I just love church history. The more I learn, the more my testimony grows.
GT: Can you share with us, studying church history, what has been the most inspirational story that you’ve learned?
Elder Snow 5:30 It’s hard to identify just one, Rick, but I think the first volume of Saints is a good representation. I think of many stories, some of which members of the church will not know. I just think, how did they do it? How did they suffer all this persecution, and I’m sure it was a sifting process for many. But, boy, they had a lot of courage and a lot of faith, those that stayed true and came west and established Zion here in the Rocky Mountains. It’s just an inspiring story, I think, our history.
I also asked if there was anything that troubled him.
Elder Snow: No, there’s little surprises that come up every once in a while. But one thing I’ve done is I’ve really loved to study church history. So there’s not a lot of things new that have troubled me as we’ve studied and learned our history. I just think people that don’t study history enough, are the ones that tend to be a little bit surprised, and maybe rocked a little bit or are jarred by what they learned, so I encourage people to study history and to really learn the story, rather than just get hung up on a couple of little issues that may have been troubling. That’s why I like Saints, the new series, the first volume of the four-volume series that we have out. I enjoy that because you read some of these little episodes in the context of the whole story. They seem really what they are, rather insignificant to the whole narrative. So no, I really haven’t found much that’s troubled me, nothing really that’s troubled me. A few little surprises, but nothing too much.
Do you agree with Elder Snow?