Today’s guest post is by Richard Redick.
Sunday, October 18, 2015 – I had a dream early this morning. This was not one of those nonsensical dreams one gets because one’s G.I. tract is working overtime while she or he slumbers. Oh, I get those, too – don’t get me wrong. I, also, occasionally get dreams that I am confident come from a source of intelligence beyond myself. I call that source God. I think many people do. This was one of THOSE DREAMS. The dream involves Latter-day Saint women and priesthood ordination. To date, women do not have priesthood authority conferred upon them in the Church, nor are LDS women ordained to the church offices appertaining to that priesthood authority denied them.
Regarding the ordination of females, I have – until today – been something of a fence-sitter on this subject. I am sympathetic to those women seeking ordination, and I do cheer them on and encourage them in bringing to light elements of LDS history that most Mormons are unaware of. When it comes to the question of whether they should be ordained, I have had doctrinal, scriptural, and traditional walls up (not that I really have an authoritative say in the matter, anyway….). The dream I “experienced” this morning has completely changed my perspective.
My dream takes place in the future, and I don’t know how far into the future. I was in a pleasant, middle-class Latter-day Saint home, sitting in the kitchen with a mother (probably in her sixties) and her grown daughter (probably in her late twenties – early thirties). We were having the most sweet, intimate conversation about spiritual experiences we have had with the priesthood, and I asked them to share with me where they were, and what they were doing when the announcement was made that women could now be ordained. I don’t know who these women were. I have never seen them before. Apparently, I was pretty good friends with them, because they really opened-up, and shared with me things that were very special and sacred to them.
The mother spoke first. She shared that she was preparing food in the kitchen, and had the Church’s General Conference on the kitchen radio when the announcement was read of this change. The announcement affirmed that revelation had been received, and that worthy sisters could, now, minister with the authority of the priesthood. This mother was so overcome, that she knelt in humility and gratitude on her kitchen floor, right then, as if to pray. She knelt, and had her head bowed, and hands folded, but she did not pray. Instead, she knelt reverently, and released tears as many deep and profound feelings coursed through her being. She felt a divine peace and joy in that powerful moment. She, then, bore testimony to me of the growth she had experienced in being able to broaden her ability to serve, since being ordained. There was the right mix of confidence, gratitude, love, humility, and POWER in her voice, and her countenance, as she spoke and shared these experiences with me. She brought a sweet spirit into the room. I felt very privileged to listen to her share these things of her soul with me.
I turned and looked at her daughter, and it was obvious to me that she wanted to share her story, as well. She explained that she was serving her church mission, and attending a broadcast of General Conference in an LDS meetinghouse. She was not in the chapel, but in one of the auxiliary rooms watching the satellite broadcast of conference when the announcement was read. She, too, was filled with many powerful feelings, instantly. Like her mother, she responded with reverence, gratitude and humility, but with her own unique twist. She did not kneel upon the floor. She stood with head bowed, eyes shut, and hands folded, and did so standing upon a folding chair. She said she did so to illustrate how this announcement lifted her up. It was not anything she consciously thought about doing. It was just what she felt to do in that moment– almost like instinct. Her eyes, too, released those tears that just could not be held back. She was a full-time missionary, at the time, and she shared how her missionary work became even more special following her ordination. She spoke with great feeling and divine power in the priesthood as she testified of the growth she had received.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your old men will dream dreams, and your young men will see visions. Joel 2:28
I, once again, felt privileged in hearing these testimonies. We enjoyed the sweetest spirit as we spoke of things of our souls. It had been a number of years since this announcement was made, and they had been able to have a number of experiences since then, that they could have had in no other way. I was satisfied that this is correct. We spoke so matter-of-fact about this change, because – in the dream – it was so after-the-fact.
All dreams come to an end. I awoke from my sleep, and thought on that dream for a few minutes, and, only then, did I realize that it is 2015, and neither the policy change, nor the revelation mandating it had occurred, yet. My heart sank. I was genuinely disappointed to be “back” in our present day.
My intention is not to share the words that will frame a future event. I do not know when these changes will take place. I don’t know exactly what will be contained in these changes. This is in God’s hands. The details of when this change will take place, and what this change will consist of is a matter between the Lord, and his servants who hold the authoritative keys to receive such revelations. Whether women in that day will hold the same authority, and the same offices as man (a competitive model), or they will continue in the Church under a complementary model, but with express, legitimate, authority-by-ordination, I do not claim to know. Whatever form this future change takes, I feel to say, based upon what I felt in this dream: All sense of second-class or inferior status for woman was gone. That day is going to come. I have seen it. I have felt it. It was delicious to my soul. It will be to yours, as well.
I was very disappointed to awaken from my dream “back” into the present. I hope that we Latter-day Saints are truly prepared for the changes I saw in my dream. These changes will bless the lives of all members of the Church, and greatly improve the quality of our “sociality.” The Lord’s standard is “If ye are not one, ye are not mine.” These changes – whatever form they take – will bring us closer to that standard.
Are we Latter-day Saint men and women ready to arise and take a few steps alongside the coffee table? I hope so!
“My daughter asked me, “Dad, does this mean we have been doing things wrong all along?” I answered, “Well, of course it does, honey. And, that is quite normal for us.”
Isn’t that the truth.
In your quest, are you asking for equality, or are you asking for the sexes to be interchangeable? If the Gods intended us to be interchangeable, why even have gender? Clear we are different with different roles and functions.
Men and women are already equal, each with unique and significant roles. Gender is an eternal and permenant law that even the Gods have to obey. The male gender is designed to be one with the female gender in an everlasting covenant.
Men are not designed to be with men in an eternal Union; likewise women are not designed to be with women in an eternal Union. Gender is eternal and it is intended to compliment the opposite gender in an everlasting Union.
Ken, nobody said anything in the above post about eradicating your precious gender roles. Please quit arguing straw men. The sexes can complement one another while both exercise priesthood power. After all, according to E. Oaks, they already do.
Thanks for your post Richard. It is a very intimate thing to reveal our dreams. I appreciate your courage.
I wonder if others might have had a dream pre 1978 where they could see black men blessing their children and functioning as Bishops. Maybe…
Ken – I’m not sure that I’ve heard a more absurd line of thinking. Your argument assumes that gender is defined as a person being male or female. For most people that is clear, however ask any doctor who works in the area of genetics and you will find that the construct of gender you speak of is not as eternal as you allude to. Pseudohermaproditism and other genetic gonditions occur and are more common than most people think. This is where a person is born with secondary sex characteristics that do not correspond to their genetic composition. Some are born with both secondary sex characteristics. Are they male or female..?? My point here is that gender is not defined in the proclamation, and whilst for most of us is clear, ie you are either male or female (sex) a percentage of the population do not have that clarity…
Men and women are equal before God, however we are not equal in His church. If we were, as you suggest, why should my wife have had numerous husbands if we lived in the polygamous era..???
Ken, the only thing I have asked for today is I asked Wheat & Tares for some space to share the dream I had. The good people there have graciously provided this space.
I am keenly aware that I am a guest contributor on this site. That means I really must be on good behavior. I must be a good guest, and I think that means I should not needlessly entangle myself in arguments with others; especially with those who seem to want to argue.
I was given a dream, and I fully believe that it came from God. Rather than argue with me, a mere mortal man, go to the source. I would encourage you, however, to approach Him with more humility than you queried me, above.
The purpose of this dream, IMO, was to share with me some of the positive effects of this change; not give to me a comprehensive knowledge regarding it. I have shared that dream, and have shared that I was greatly affected by it, and that really is as far as I’m going, Ken. I yield no points to you, because I do not engage you in argument, nor in competition. My suggestion to you, Ken, is to try and enjoy the dream on its own merits, and quit trying to make it fit into what you already “know.” Just as God has not appointed me to be the prophet unto the people, he has not appointed you to be the guardian of orthodoxy. God has given to me a dream. Try and find something in this that blesses your life, or ignore it. That is your inviolate choice.
Well said Richard. You’re welcome here anytime.
A beautiful dream Richard. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Sounds like a plant for OW.
I felt peace and excitement reading this. No fist-pounding of “you must allow women to be ordained.” I don’t know that everyone is ready, but oh how sweet it will be one day.
And in my house it is a postum table 😉
Winifred, I beg you to to to the Ordain Women website and see if you find any statement from me on that site. I know several of the women in Ordain Women. In fact, I have sparred with a few in the past over whether women should be ordained.
Because of the walls that I have had up, I have never felt to join their movement, and consequently, you will find not testimony from me on their web site. I have no affiliation with Ordain Women, other than friendships with several of its members.
I really am just a guy who had this dream, and is no longer on the fence.
Hawkgril,,
They are not my precious roles, they are outlined in The Family: A Proclamation to the World. This proclamation, along with the role of Motherhood were re-emphasized in the last conference. Along these lines, the three Apostles recently called are all strong supporters of this proclamation showing the mind and will of God.
Women are not going to get the priesthood. It is not going to happen. It is a dream for some, but a reality for all.
Richard,
It was a dream. Period. Visions or inspiration for this issue will come through the presiding quorums. Based on the recent conference, we have seen the current revelation on this issue.
Thank you, Happy Hubby, for your kind words of feedback. I did not put any fist-pounding into it, because I do not feel any desire to. What good would it do, anyway. I appreciate knowing that it is a Postum table in your home. I suspect – if we could peer into Mormon’s homes, we would find more who drink coffee than Postum. (smiling as I type this).
Again, thank you for your kind and encouraging words!
Ken, I assume you are expressing doubt that God was the source of this dream. I don’t know why God giving me – or anyone else – a dream should cause you to feel threatened.
As a young missionary, Elder Orson F. Whitney had a dream where he saw Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane. This was many, many years prior to his being called to the Council of the Twelve. Was that simply a dream, or did it come from God? Suppose – for the moment – that he was never later called to serve as a General Authority. In fact, suppose he never served as a priesthood leader locally. Would it simply have been a dream, and not an inspired dream from God?
I have already written that I am not the channel through whom revelation for the Church (and accompanying changes) will come. There is no need for you to feel threatened for the sake of the Church. I have also reminded you that God has not placed you in the position of being the guardian of church orthodoxy.
While I am not the Prophet, I will not let your implication that God cannot or will not give me an inspired dream go unanswered. You are clearly wrong on this point. I am a worthy member of the Church, and – through the atonement of Christ – am entitled to gifts of the spirit, as God may see fit to give to me. In saying this, I make no claim to any greater gift than is freely available to all members of the Church.
To be very clear, Ken, you may need to get a few nights of good sleep. You are unnecessarily alarmed in your comments to me, and to others. I have no doubt that you feel you have good desires. Whatever your desires may be, your excessive zeal may be “eating-up” what goodness there may be within your desires. I have no ill-will toward the Church, nor toward its members. I have not sensed that anyone who has commented on this article has such ill will. I am not holding myself up as a light. I am simply bearing witness of the light that the Lord shared with me yesterday.
As J. Golden Kimball used to tell the saints, “We are all our Father’s children!” I share all of this with you, Ken, because you are “our Father’s children.” Rejoice in that, good man! Rejoice in the common body of light we have to share, AND rejoice in the gifts that God gives to your brothers and sisters. Our Father has a “coat of many colors” for each one of us. You do not need to envy or fear me, or anyone else, because the Lord gives to them a gift or an experience. I trust you have had experiences from God that have touched your soul, and I am so glad that you have. We are brethren, Ken, we are brethren. Peace and blessings.
I just want to put something out here. Richard Redick is our guest. That means that we as the hosts must be of the greatest hospitality. In the case of people mistreating our guests, it’s not the guest who’s going to get the boot.
“It is a very intimate thing to reveal our dreams. I appreciate your courage.”
I would broaden this to say that it is a very intimate thing to reveal our spiritual experiences. It is very difficult to use spoken and written language to convey the impact of the spirit during an event. When you try, you risk getting responses like, “well that was special,” while you can tell that the listen thinks you are making a big deal out of something they rapidly dismiss. Mary pondered her spiritual experiences in her heart, and I agree that is where the safest place is to keep them. Then again, when the Spirit moves to share them, what can you do.
I won’t argue the validity of the dream. It seems that it was intended to convey a literal interpretation rather than a symbolic dream like that of Nebuchadnezzer, though one should be open to the symbolic interpretations that are possible.
The challenge I see with being the guardian of such a vision is that it will require long-suffering faith to endure the temporal relationship between what was seen in the dream and what the future holds. If a long time passes with status quo, can that faith be endured? Indeed, where much is given, much is expected. I am not envious of that position, to tell you the truth.
Thank you for sharing this. Ice been pondering about how we progress towards Zion, and the other day I was talking to a family member who said it was okay for me to personally disagree with how things are done, but that I cannot and should not ever criticize the Church or the Brethren.
I thought back to last week’s conference on race and the LDS church when a panelist said, “it is because I love this organization so dearly that I reserve my right to criticize it.”
I’m not a member of OW. I haven’t actively advocated for female ordination. I do believe we must desire new revelation. I believe that whatever progress we make in understanding the role of women will happen after we as a people have sought to make progress.
Pres. Kimball’s son quoted him in his biography “Lengthen your Stride”:
“Revelations will probably never come unless they are desired. I think few people receive revelations while lounging on a couch,” Spencer Kimball wrote to Edward Kimball several years before the 1978 experience. “I believe most revelations would come when a man is on his tiptoes, reaching as high as he can for something which he knows he needs, and then there bursts upon him the answer to his problems.”
Richard, interesting dream. I like it because some claim we dont bear testimony here. I think they dont recognize it when it happens.
Lester Bush shares your optimism on this issue.
I appreciate your vision Richard.
My wife and I both thought Elder Nelson in his conference talk was about to announce the ordination of women. He certainly made a good argument for it.
“All sense of second-class or inferior status for woman was gone.”
It seems to me that this dream predicts sonething much greater than mere ordination of women, for it will take more than women’s ordination to level the playing field, so to speak.
I have hope that this dream will become a reality. I think the arguments against female ordination are similar to, and possibly weaker than, the arguments that were made about race and the priesthood shortly before the priesthood/temple ban was lifted. The arguments I’ve heard hark back to a time when women couldn’t even own property; they were property. But a bigger achievement than ordination would be the elimination of the message that women should be subservient to men.
This would be a stupendous change: the whole structure of the church organization would be impacted. There might have been some equally radical changes in church history. Perhaps, for example, the change in new testament times to preach to gentiles and accept them into Christian churches without requiring them to obey the law of Moses. Or in old testament times there were substantial changes in who could perform ordinances and where they could be performed (I should cite something specific here, but I won’t.) These changes seem obviously right to us, but they were controversial at the time.
Many LDS have no trouble believing that God allowed his one true church to be removed from the earth for almost two thousand years. It seems contradictory to then say that God wouldn’t allow leaders of the newly restored church to make a few mistakes and corrections along the way.
(Side note: The argument that men and women are equal in the church reminds me of this line from Orwell’s Animal Farm: “All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.”)
I agree with Rockwell. The concept that no woman would get the message she is second-class or inferior goes way beyond the ordination issue. Just because blacks have the priesthood doesn’t mean racism has been eliminated among churchmembers. To have every woman grow up in this church never receiving a message from those around her that she is inferior to men? Now *that* would be a Zion community.
Richard, thank-you for sharing your experience.
I haven’t been to other churches, but I’m told that we have a comparatively very high rate of our men participating. I’m also told that that won’t hold if women are ordained. Since I can’t possibly know what will happen, fear wins out and I succumb to worry. Any helpful thoughts?
Richard
Check the source of your Epiphany. Many people have dreamed that gay marriage will be recognized by the church.
Thank you for sharing your beautiful dream. It sounded so natural, like a conversation I might have with my own friends and family some day. It gave me hope.
@ Genhy – Isn’t it great that such is a possibility given that we believe in revelation? How sad it would be to feel that all progress stopped once the book of Revelations was compiled into the New Testament?
As others have said, thanks for sharing something this personal. And of course our church has a long tradition of members having revelations prior to the same thing being declared by the prophet. Lorenzo Snow’s couplet, the idea that men could become Gods, is but one example.
I am not sure that I agree with the statement that “To date, women do not have priesthood authority conferred upon them in the Church.”
While it is true that women are not ordained to priesthood offices, they absolutely are given priesthood authority when set apart to callings. As Elder Oaks taught in his April 2014 address, “We are not accustomed to speaking of women having the authority of the priesthood in their Church callings, but what other authority can it be?” And he goes on to say, “Whoever functions in an office or calling received from one who holds priesthood keys exercises priesthood authority in performing her or his assigned duties.”
That talk caused waves, but there were various similar teachings long before, e.g., President Joseph Fielding Smith: “While the sisters have not been given the Priesthood, it has not been conferred upon them, that does not mean that the Lord has not given unto them authority. … A person may have authority given to him, or a sister to her, to do certain things in the Church that are binding and absolutely necessary for our salvation….”
Also, when someone has a vision or does a thought experiment it would be nice if they mentioned not only how wonderful it would be for women to have the priesthood, but also lay out how the work currently done by women would be handled.
Simple example: There is a funeral and the priesthood who will be dedicating the grave go with the family off to take care of that. Meanwhile, the Relief Society is preparing a nice meal for the family, at their home or at the church. Depending on the size of the family, it may be bringing together dishes prepared by a dozen or more women.
Both the meal and the grave-blessing are worthwhile service performed by humble disciples of the Savior. I don’t think one is greater than the other.
My Heavenly Mother allows the men in her life to be the public face who preside and do the public stuff, so I don’t have a problem with also doing the quieter background work if it is all part of kindgom-building.
Of course men could step up and do the meal preparation just fine if it was assigned to them. But it would be nice if handling that work was even considered in these dreams of the “egalitarian” future.
Some think that respect to women is shown by declaring that they should be doing what men should. That is merely male-normative and inherently views women’s current contributions as second-class. I think that the greatest respect would be to actually acknowledge the work that women are currently doing.
I really don’t have a strong feeling about ordination one way or another. Because I see women already functioning with priesthood authority in various callings, it would not be a huge shift in my mind. There is no doubt in my mind that at a lot of women I know would be great bishops if given that assignment. I just don’t think the church is wrong for not giving them that assignment.
I am not sure about a lot of this stuff, but I am prettysure that viewing women and their work as second-class is of Satan. If the only way for us to become “equal” is to do what men do…that strikes me as pretty lame. And a slap in the fact to Heavenly Mother.
Naismith,
I don’t think it is necessary for every or even very many posts regarding women’s ordination to get into the details of assignments. It seems odd to me that the assumption is that if women have the priesthood no one will cook the food. It is possible for different people to have different assignments and I don’t know why those assignments need to fall along gender lines. Maybe certain people, men and women, are called to the compassionate service committee and that committee is in charge of meals for funerals while the Bishop and his or her counselors along with all priesthood holders requested by the family of the deceased go to dedicate the grave. We are capable of delegating tasks and getting things done even when gender stereotypes are removed.
I agree with you that whatever task is done, it should be valued as important. I disagree that making meals is a woman’s task. That is only the case in church because we have declared it so. Why can’t all tasks be considered important enough for both men and women to learn them? If I am not good at or interested in cooking, crafting, sewing, cleaning, full time stay at home parenting, etc. does that mean that I am trying to become a man? Of course, many of these tasks need to get done and I am happy to coordinate with my husband to ensure they all get done. Does that mean I putting women down by not liking or being good at those things? If I would rather contribute in other ways to a funeral than making the refreshments that doesn’t mean that I am demeaning women or that I am trying to be a man.
I disagree that certain chores are a woman’s sphere so we should respect that work or we are demeaning women. We should respect those chores because they need to get done and we should respect whomever gets them done. We should respect women and men for developing skills and talents in any area that contribute to the well being of the family and the community.
The only way for us to become “equal” is to allow each person to develop the gifts that have been given to them by our Heavenly Parents. It seems like a slap in the face to Heavenly Mother to say sorry you gave me these wonderful gifts, but they are too masculine so I am not going to use them, thanks anyway though.
Thanks for sharing your dream.
It reminds me of a much shorter dream I had perhaps a decade ago.
I was visiting my cousin at her ward down in Texas. I came in late and they had just finished the sacramental prayer.
I looked to the front of the chapel and saw that a number of the deacons leaving the table with their trays of bread were young women.
I stopped my cousin to ask what was going on. She simply looked at me quizzically and asked if the young women weren’t doing it in our ward.
And with my cousin’s statement it went from radical to normal before my eyes.
Thanks again for sharing your experience.
I am not assuming that “if women have the priesthood no one will cook the food.” I already acknowledged that if given the assignment, men would also step up.
Rather, my point is that women in the church are engaged in work that makes a difference in people’s lives, and should women be assigned to other jobs, the tasks they formerly did will still need to be done.
Even if people don’t see what the women are doing or acknowledge the contribution. Or see it is “less” since it is not a priesthood office.
The idea of women’s work being invisible and underappreciated is pretty well documented in mainstream USAmerican sociological research (e.g., “the second shift”). A classic feminist reading on the subject is “The Housewife’s Moment of Truth” By Jane O’Reilly which is included in various anthologies and readily available at http://nymag.com/news/features/46167/
And sadly I have heard such attitudes from some at church. When I was serving in RS, there was a counselor in the bishopric who came up to me when the bishop was preparing to leave town, filled with gratitude for all I did, but also a new realization because he hadn’t appreciated it before and had been briefed in preparation for taking over various aspects of welfare etc. that he didn’t normally deal with. I heard several “Click!” sounds as he was talking.
I wasn’t aware that our talents or desires to serve in a particular way had anything to do with callings in the church. We serve where the Lord wants, not where we want to be. I can introduce you to at least a half-dozen bishops who would prefer to be a clerk, because that is where there talents lie.
I figure there is some reason that we were created with gender dimorphism, when it would be so much easier to make us all the same. So it doesn’t bother me that the church treats men and women differently–as long as neither is less or more.
Thank you, Richard…..thank you for telling us where you once were on this matter and how your dream impacted your position. I have pondered your dream for a few days and am grateful for the whisperings of the Spirit that tell me of its truth. How blessed we are to have dreams, visions, and miracles!
Thank you for sharing something so holy. It lifts and inspires our souls, helping us look forward to more blessings and gifts from God.
As to the questions raised in the comments regarding the details of implementing ordaining women, I wish to express that I, too, have dreamed a sacred dream and can share that God is in the details and surely never gives a command save He shall prepare a way for us to accomplish the thing He commands. We may be at peace regarding such concerns.
And so, Dreamer……dream His dreams. You are not alone. Glory be to God, you are not alone.
Thanks to all of you who have commented. I truly have enjoyed reading each one; some more than others, to be sure, but I have enjoyed each person’s contribution to this discussion. Thank you, and blessings to each one of you.