If our agency is the gift we got for following Jesus’ plan rather than Satan’s salvation-for-all compulsion buffet, is obedience the gift we give back? Isn’t that just giving up our agency? Many of us remember that the term has traditionally been “free agency” [2]. Newcomers may be more familiar with the johnny-come-lately term “moral agency.”[1] What do you call it?
[poll id=”452”]
Discuss.
[1] which sounds like calling French fries “freedom fries” to me. Vive la diferance!
[2] Free agency, not just for sports.
Wheat & Tares 
My opinion is that free will is not really a gift, it just is. I suppose not taking it away is an indirect gift.
I am also not sold on the forced obedience of Satan’s plan. The scriptures say Satan sought to take away our agency. That could also mean simply no accountability. Perhaps under his plan there simply would be no sin. That seems more like his style.
The term moral agency seems to imply accountability whether or not we are free in the libertarian free will way.
I will choose a path that’s clear, I will choose Free Will.
We always had agency. Otherwise how could we even have chosen to follow Christ or Satan in the pre-existence? I believe in what Joseph Smith taught in the King Follet sermon that our spirits are eternal and have always existed. They weren’t created or made by anyone or anything.
God adopted our spirits as His spirit children and we chose to be ‘adopted’ by him in order to become more like Him. We always had agency but not the power to do what God could do. By choosing to participate in His plan we are growing in knowledge and power. Our bodies are a gift from God and the ability to choose what to do with them(agency as a living soul) is a gift from God but as He didn’t create our spirits He didn’t give agency to them.
In a gospel doctrine class, someone thoughtfully pointed out that one of Satan’s lies is that we have our agency when in reality we really don’t have it if we are going to achieve exaltation. That thought rankled, but maybe it’s true.
I agree with the first part of what stockoneder said. It is simple logic that Agency is not a gift. Neither are our bodies (that was evolution) and the “agency as a living soul.”
As to “Satan’s plan,” all he had to do was keep us ignorant. Without knowledge (the fruit of the “Tree of Knowledge” of the Garden of Eden myth) we cannot “choose” (our will) to be honest, kind, humble, etc. Children, until their individual “age of accountability” have insufficient knowledge and understanding to exercise their inherent Agency. They can be kind or mean, honest or dishonest–but not as a matter of their will or agency. Becoming (internally) more honest or less honest occurs through our will, our Agency. Reacting to rewards or punishments and acting honest or dishonest (etc) is not agency.
Think of the true meaning of the scriptural phrase “agents unto yourselves.” We make ourselves; we determine what we become (regarding our character traits), in terms of being more or less righteous, by consciously choosing. It is a natural consequence of being human (except in cases of young childhood, brain damage, or mental illness). It did not originate nor is it created by God.
At least, all that seems perfectly logical to me.
Oh, another thing. It is entirely possible to be both free and obedient. In fact, I believe that is the goal.
Eric: When you say “free and obedient,” do you mean: 1) because our minds become one with the will of God, we choose as he would choose (more or less independently, not even knowing the will of God directly), or 2) we choose to obey what we are told is God’s will? I’m merely curious which view you had in mind, not arguing. I’ve heard a case made for both in the church. I think the former used to be in vogue when I was growing up, and now the latter has replaced it.
I prefer the goal of becoming like God, pursuing real righteousness because it is good over blind obedience to arbitrary commandments simply because someone (even God) said so.
Talk about our mind becoming one with God’s makes it seem like there is abolition of choice, as if there is a clear, step-by-step template that must be followed with absolute precision in order to achieve the goal of becoming as God is. I don’t see it as such a prescriptive course. I am of the opinion that God has a set of core values that define him and everything he does. He acts according to those core character traits. So does Jesus. But does that mean that if you exchanged them (thought experiment, obviously) that they would say the exact same thing in the exact same situation and behave in exactly the same manner? I don’t think so. In that same vein it truly doesn’t matter what career I choose, what city I live in, what hobbies I pursue, etc. There are a tremendous number of options that, if I adopt the same core characteristics that define God, will all lead to the same outcome. Plenty of flexibility. Agency certainly has a place there.
Eric:
On Hawkgrrrl’s question – #6, I would say both of them happen, but in reverse order. As we choose to do what our teachers tell us AND (well, at least it helps a lot) our teachers were right about what they taught us, God reveals himself to us, by degrees (this ‘line upon line’ thing) and, by degrees we choose to be like him.
Oh, by the way, I appreciate the group’s use of the term ‘agency’.
Free will == agency. Free will is a part of agency, which includes both choice and accountability.
Also, choosing exaltation is a choice, which if we make it requires certain things. We don’t get mad we can’t make Angel Food Cake out of beans, meat, and cheese. If we choose to buy things that don’t make exaltation, that doesn’t rob us of agency. It is a manifestation of agency.
Satan tried to sell a plan with choice, but no accountability. That not only saves us from pain, it utterly fails to help us become divine.
Free will and agency, in my mind, are not the same thing. Agency is simply an explanation for why God allows bad things to happen. Divine punishment and/or reward comes in the afterlife, not in the earthly existence. The LDS church is to respect people’s agency by not forcing them through undue social pressure to convert, participate, and remain active. Free will is the idea that people can consciously choose their beliefs and actions; that they are the ones causing them, and not some other force.
Hawk, re. #6, I’ve always thought that we do #2 until we basically evolve to #1. I completely disagree with whoever completely misunderstood the principle and made the comment in your GD class (#3). Choosing to do God’s will in no way implies that we’ve given up the ability to do otherwise (and, in fact, we do otherwise all the time, hence the need for repentance and the Atonement). We don’t give up our agency, merely the set of choices not in harmony with the divine will. We can take them back at any time, and we frequently do – usually to our detriment.
Rich says in #9: As we choose to do what our teachers tell us
That’s a very dangerous mindset, one that I personally try to avoid. I’ll choose to do what the Lord tells me (at least I kid myself that’s my intent, despite evidence to the contrary). But it’s His will we should seek to follow, not that of other humans.
“I will choose a path that’s clear, I will choose Free Will”
I didn’t know Rush was in the scriptures, although I do like thier music
Lucifer had no real plan, at least not one that could work. He simply was rebellious to THE plan.
What if His will is conveyed by teachers and leaders who are called and set apart to express His will? My stake president has expressed worry about members who think they need to pray about every thing they are asked to do, large or small. We should be close enough to the promptings of the Spirit to discern the rightness of things. In my church experience, it is fairly rare for a teacher or leader to ask or challenge me to do something that is out of line with His will.
Re. #15, if the divine will and the leader’s request align, then perform. If not (whether you discover this through discernment or prayer, it is the same) then don’t. No dilemma there. What are you asking?
Eric Nelson:
“I will choose a path that’s clear, I will choose Free Will.”
Mosiah 15:7
“7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.”
Make sure your free will is swallowed up in the will of the Father.
The important part of agency is the freedom contained in it. That’s why ‘free agency’ is double talk. Agency is made up of the choices we can make and the freedom we have to make them. We will have to make them whether we want to or not. From this we are judged. If by your agency you choose to commit an unpardonable sin you will lose your salvation. Otherwise you will be saved and you will be saved in some degree of the Telestial Kingdom, or in some degree of the Terrestrial Kingdom, or in one of the lower degrees of Celestial Kingdom. (In other words, somewhere in the Kingdom of God.) If you choose to follow all the commandments you will receive your Exaltation which has no end in its’ existence. And please don’t give me this barnyard gibberish about we can’t accomplish this in our lifetimes.
We need to understand that our agency is made up of two choices. We can choose one of two choices – follow God or follow Satan. We can do either one. God wants us to choose His way, but we don’t have to. If we choose His way then we will have commandments from Him that we will want to have because we love Him and will want to be with Him. The only way to be with Him is to be able to be in His presence. If you want to be with Satan that will be easier but much more miserable, or if you want to be in any degree above him or lower than Exaltation that will be very much nicer, but when you get there you will realize that you really don’t want to be there either. You will want exaltation.
Now please, you guys, don’t come across with this thing about losing your freedom if you choose God’s way and not Satan’s. God is just showing you how to have the most happiness in eternity. I talked like that when I was a kid but finally stopped it.
I thought I was the only ‘Rich’ but I guess there’s another one. I’m not sure I should be doing something about that.
OK. There’s no extra Rich.
“If our agency is the gift we got for following Jesus’ plan rather than Satan’s salvation-for-all”
The Father’s plan is salvation for all!! Remember, we are a grace oriented church. We can either follow the Fathers’ plan or we can follow Satans’ plan.