Temple marriage has been seen by LDS couples as the corner stone in forging a successful marriage. In general conference and in popular discourse people often bring up the statistic that only 6% of temple marriages end up in divorce, but what does this actually tell us about why temple marriages are so successful? Many reasons are given for this in terms of shared faith, community, and commitment to the relationship, but are there other reasons for this low statistic?
For most my life I have accepted statements such as the following from the 1984 Ensign without too much thinking about their accuracy or broader significance, in it it states that:
“Among Latter-day Saints, marriage in the temple has a significant effect on the divorce rate, Brother Heaton and Sister Goodman reported. “Nontemple marriages are about five times more likely to end in divorce than temple marriages.” About 5.4 percent of LDS males who married in the temple were later divorced, and about 6.5 percent of the females. By comparison, some 27.8 percent of nontemple LDS marriages ended in divorce for men, and about 32.7 percent for women.”
Likewise the Salt Lake Tribune ran an article about a 1993 study published in Demography showed that:
“Mormons marrying within their church are least likely of all Americans to become divorced. Only 13 percent of LDS couples have divorced after five years of marriage, compared with 20 percent for religiously homogamist unions among Catholics and Protestants and 27 percent among Jews. However, when a Mormon marries outside his or her denomination, the divorce rate soars to 40 percent — second only to mixed-faith marriages involving a Jewish spouse (42 percent).”
The LA times also ran an article about why Mormon Temple Weddings Are Built to Last, in which it outlines some of the reasons why they think mormon temple weddings are successful. Now something that has been pointed out is that these statistics may not be fully accurate and representative, due to the fact that getting a temple divorce is notoriously difficult to do and the 6% represent only those who have had their marriage both legally and ecclesiastically divorced. The consensus seems to be that even if it is not as dramatically low as is portrayed, it is clear that mormon marriages divorce rates are lower then the national average rate.
I have always accepted these statistics without thinking too much about them. However, recently I read Malcolm Gladwell’s book Blink which caused me to think about these statistics and wonder why is it that mormons get divorced less. In this book it contains a section on the marriage specialist John Gottman who has devised a marriage prediction algarithm. John Gottman in his study would analyse a couple for 15 minutes and break down every 10 seconds into a series of positive and negative emotions and responses. The result of such in depth analysis is that he is able to predict from that fragment of conversation on if the couple will still be together in 15 years. So good in fact that he is 95% accurate at predicting if they will remain together. In talking about if a marriage will work or end in failure he says that there is one single most important sign that the marriage is in trouble. Most people would think that criticism of each other would be the sign it was in trouble, as it is attack on a persons character or views. With criticism people would say ‘you never listen, you are really selfish and insensitive’ which provokes a defensive response, and is not beneficial for problem solving and interaction. Gottman argues that the biggest sign of future marriage failure is contempt. That contempt is quantitatively different to criticism. This is because contempt is speaking from a superior plane, it is a disregard of the views of the other as they are making them from a lower level. Contempt puts the other on a lower plane. It should be remembered that contempt means esteeming someone or their views as below consideration, to disregard or disrespect their views or opinions. Contempt is more dangerous as it often lurks underneath what we say consciously in our unconscious thought patterns and world-view.
It is important to remember that what we say does not reflect what we really think, and it is often the case that we don’t fully understand our own minds or reflect what we really think. What we conciously profess such as phrases such as marriages are ‘an equal partnership’ sometimes don’t actually map out into what we unconciously think and do. An interesting test done by psychologists at Harvard demonstrates this, which I reccommend that we all try to see what our implicit association bias is. In it we are asked to express our beliefs, and then it does a series of questions that aim to expose our biases and implicit associations regarding race. Often the results of the test don’t reflect what we conciously claim that we adhere to. For instance, most people wouldn’t consider themselves racist yet when they take the ICT test to test racial bias towards black people, overwhelmingly it appears that we have a preference towards white people from the tests despite saying that we don’t. Significantly, not only does it appear in white people, but black people as well. When black people take the test they also have an implicit association of white with good and black with bad this is due to the fact that they are influenced by the culture that surrounds them that still underlying has a bias towards white people, despite the conscious effort to alter this attitude in society. How does this relate to temple marriages? Well, it shows that even if we claim equality when it is actually tested our subconcious biases may not match up with what we claim we adhere to. If this is true about racial equality, then this is likely to also be the case in regards to gender issues. This is significant for the issue of mormon marriages, for they are claimed to be ‘equal partnerships’ but is this equality actually what manifests itself in our actions and discourses?
Returning to Gottman’s suggestion that it is contempt that is the biggest indicator of if a marriage will end up in divorce, if he is right then it would be expected that in mormon marriages for there to be an absence of contempt or disregard within them. This would explain why they have a lower divorce rate as it is due to the fact that they have less contempt for each other, that they are truly an equal partership with no hierarchy. However, in order for this to be true it would mean that mormon marriages would have no hierarchy or different levels within their relationships and that men took seriously the opinions of their partners and did not hold them in disregard, but this doesn’t seem to be the case all of the time in marriages within mormonism. This is because mormon marriages are inherently hierarchal and most mormons see their marriage as a patriarchy where the male is the head of the household who presides, this dismisses any notion of both being on the same level, and sets up the marriage for one being above the other, which leads to an unconcious disregard for the lower person. This follows the structure of the church, which is two-leveled between the male priesthood and females. Indeed, the wording of a temple marriage like the family proclaimation to the world intrinsically puts men on a higher pedastal then women. We are told that women follow their husbands, as their husbands follow God. With such a clear hieracrchy it is going to be very difficult for their not to follow on some level contempt or a disregard for the other when one of them is intrinsically placed above the other. It should be noted that this contempt is not always obvious Gottman noticed that this contempt most often was not overtly expressed but appeared unconciously in subtle signs expressed in the couples interactions. He found that most men did not realise that their responses showed a veiled and concealed contempt for their partner; often it was in phrases such as ‘yes, but…’. In offering a verbal agreement but then completely dismissing it, it showed contempt for what the other said. I don’t think that any mormon would ever say that they treated or disregarded their wife, but I am sure that they would feature many ‘yes, but’ statements. We can see this veiled contempt in phrases such as ‘yes men and women are equal but men should be leaders and preside over women.’ It appears to agree but then fundementally contradicts and dismisses the proposed view of equality. This is a subtle form of contempt that lurks under public agreement and proclamations of equality. Which as it is part of our culture impacts upon our attitudes towards women. An example of the manifestation of this came to me whilst watching general conference it has always been remarkable to me to see how when a women speaks many men start to lose interest and doodle, look away, or go to the toilet, whilst she speaks, I even at times have had to catch myself from doing the same. This seems to indicate to me to some degree a failure to take them seriously and is a form of contempt that is a part of our social universe as mormons. It is a passive form of contempt rather then an active form, by failing to engage with women’s talks and the apathy in which they treat them with less respect then they deserve is a less obvious form of contempt then someone shouting out ‘she’s wrong because she’s a women’ but still a form of contempt.
If contempt is the greatest sign of divorce why is it that mormons don’t have a higher divorce rate when a patriachal model of marriage seems to promote a degree of disregard and contempt? I would suggest that a reason not often considered is that women are taught to live with and enjoy contempt. They have been indoctrinated into a culture where women are expected to occupy a lower role, where men via the priesthood automatically are placed higher then women. Men lead, and women follow. If they are brought up with this cultural idea, when they experience it within a marriage environment it is no different to what they thought it would be like, in fact it is what they are taught to expect and want. Throughout young women’s the idea that a temple marriage is seen to be the ideal and they are taught that obedience to their husband is a sign of a good wife. This cultural construction means that the contempt that under normal circumstances would be detrimental to a marriage is in fact seen as what a successful marriage should be, the ideal wife is one who bears and submits to her husbands will and as part of that is disregarded, and to some extent treated with contempt as a result of a unequal status of those in the marriage. It seems then that the reason mormon marriages succeed is not because of superior shared faith, or being married in the temple, but, that it is because mormon women are used to having their opinions treated with contempt. They are used to being treated lower then men in church, so in a marriage it is not the problem that it would be for in other cultures. In other cultures if someone held the other in contempt it would cause major problems, in a mormon marriage it is expected and so does not cause so many problems. Just as coloured people accept the negative bias unknowingly, do women in the church unconsciously accept the bias of inferiority? I must clarify that I do not think that this is the only reason for the low divorce rates among Mormon marriages, or that all marriages are built around contempt, but it does seem (at least to me) to be an important factor to it, and that mormonism is a culture that is conducive to its encouragement. With such a culture it requires then an active awareness of the danger of contempt for it to be resisted as without this awareness it can unthinkingly be incorporated within a marriage. The fact that it appears to me that the church fosters and encourages a tolerance of disregard of women by men that can permeate into a marriage returns us to the opening question which asked: if temple marriages helped prevent divorce, or caused contempt? Perhaps the answer is it does both: that temple marriages in breeding an acceptance and tolerance of disregard helps to make a marriage impervious to divorce by ameliorating the effects of contempt.
Further thoughts:
If the secret to a long lasting marriage in mormonism is an acceptance of contempt of women, is this a bad thing if it results in long lasting marriages?
Do males in the church subconsciously hold women inferior and as a result disregard them, despite conscious statements to equality?
To what extent do women accept that this is the case and learn to live with, and even like, this dynamic?

Nice article.
I’m not sure that hierarchy in a relationship is necessarily the same thing or related to contempt as Gottman defines it… in fact, I’d even suggest that it is more often the woman in a marriage that is more contemptuous. Gottman’s 4 Horsemen (criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt) actually take place in the context of compelling negative patterns of interaction. The most typical pattern consists of a wife who complains (rightfully so I might add!), a husband who becomes defensive, followed by criticism from the wife, followed by stonewalling/shutting down/tuning out by the husband. Being shut out by a loved one is MUCH much worse than getting an angry response. Many wives at that point then express contempt as a means to connect (albeit a damaging attempt). This kind of patter (female express contempt at male who stonewalls) occurs more often than the other way around.
Granted, this pattern can be switched, and there are some males who not only criticize and express contempt but become very big and powerful, a difficult combination to work with in therapy.
I think the “secret” to a lasting LDS marriage, or in other words, what might benefit an LDS marriage, could also be found in Gottman’s research. Two LDS partners know each other’s values (love maps), they have shared meaning (married in the temple, church activity, etc.) which are related to their life dreams coming true (temple marriage, kids/family, etc.).
“Do males in the church subconsciously hold women inferior and as a result disregard them, despite conscious statements to equality?”
That would be an interesting study, although my guess is that it’s not necessarily worse (e.g. rates of contempt being higher) in an LDS marriage than in any other.
Blah. Just left a huge comment that didn’t show up. Anyway, always love some Gottman references. I did want to say that I think contempt is probably a bigger problem for women, because in general it’s men who stonewall, and contempt is often a reaction to that. Expressing contempt is a way to emotionally connect with a partner who is shutting you out. Being shut out is worse than getting an angry response.
Also, we have no way of knowing if men in the church in general have a lot of contempt for their wives without research. Would be interesting to find out the gender differences, but my guess is as I said, men generally stonewall more while women express more contempt.
So so many things I would like to talk about regarding this post. Excellent work, BTW.
I have watched a marriage in close proximity to my life endear so much pain, so much patriarchy, and persist out of a warped sense of obligation to covenants. This marriage has “survived” very hard things such as economic disaster, prison time, and emotional affairs.
Economic realities have exerted control. Patriarchal mandates have exerted control. A deeply seeded sense of being required to forgive and forgive again and again has exerted control. A longing to project a positive external image, a sincere desire to keep extended family together, and the ever present eternal consequences have likewise exerted control.
And while many of the specifics in this case are extreme and even rare, far too many other situations result in control factors being place on the female, primarily, keeping the marriage intact at face value.
I have a much more cynical view of the temple marriage divorce rate stats and think they are bound to change as more women enter marriages with more education and economic ability, as patriarchal structures infused by the church become less authoritative in LDS homes and the Mormon stigma of divorce dissolves in realization that sometimes a marriage is just not working. Period. And BOTH partners deserve more than simply gutting it out to preserve the eternal concepts indoctrinated in our heads from birth. Growing up I cannot remember a single case of divorce in our little Mormon neighborhood in utah. Divorce was dirty, ugly and to be avoided at all cost. And that was certainly a shame.
“This is because mormon marriages are inherently hierarchal and most mormons see their marriage as a patriarchy where the male is the head of the household who presides, this dismisses any notion of both being on the same level, and sets up the marriage for one being above the other, which leads to an unconcious disregard for the lower person.”
This is not the direction I would go with this. It is just as probable, and more in sync with the data, that LDS men do not hold women in contempt for not holding the priesthood, just like they do not hold them in contempt for (for a large majority) choosing homemaking as their profession. For a variety of reasons, LDS people could take the simple stance of different but equal. Defining such a view automatically as “acceptance of contempt of women” reminds me of the “pro-life” stance, where any one who would find isn’t 100% against abortion is “against life”.
6%?!? I’ve never heard a statistic so low. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an actual scientific study of temple marriage divorce rates.
Gottman’s predictions are based on OBSERVED contempt. Unconscious contempt doesn’t seem to be part of the equation. Sure, the patriarchal organization of families and the church might put Mormons on a tilt toward the contempt of women. A conscious effort to create ‘an equal partnership’ to mitigate that contempt is probably the secret.
Jake:
The truth is you are the one with contempt – you and a lot like you that have contempt for members who have a testimony of the tenants outlined in The Family: A proclamation to the world. It works because it is true; not because it has somehow indoctrinated women believing they are inferior. Just the opposite; a true understanding of the roles outlined by God elevates the role of the woman. The feminist movement inside the church will have an impact – a negative impact. Some women will buy into movement and it will increase the divorce rate, not decrease it.
Contempt comes from lack of respect.
I could see that a mutual decision to live a worthy lifestyle to go to the temple starts the marriage off with mutual respect that they are doing things right, God’s way, the way we are taught from childhood, the way that promotes a vision of an eternal bond and shared dependency for exaltation. Respect is heightened in temple marriages, therefore, less contempt from the get-go.
It seems your post is focusing on the hierarchy in the home from the priesthood order as a logical catalyst to contempt. However, if that hierarchy is respected and accepted, that does not necessarily generate contempt by those who accept it.
Perhaps the man does feel some importance to preside, but he is also constantly beat over the head in church that it must be done with respect for women and children, or amen to that priesthood. Personally, I do not like the emphasis on priesthood and presiding in the home. If I was a woman, I think it would bother me. But when I look at members of my ward, I do not think most of the couples hold contempt in their hearts because of it. Maybe most just don’t think deeply about it, or maybe they just keep their mouths shut about it???
Perhaps because the church defines roles more clearly, and the temple reinforces these roles with covenants to God, contempt is lessened by the roles being clearly defined, even if the outsider looks at the hierarchy as a risk of greater contempt.
In many cases, I see more Mormon couples start to have contempt when their spouse doesn’t live up to expectations (when the man doesn’t magnify his priesthood), rather than having contempt for being devout to the temple covenants the way they are.
tenets = teachings, tenants = renters
This is because no matter what a woman says in General Conference, her words carry no weight or authority over a man. Thus even her presence there shows contempt for women because it’s like “yeah, women are members too, we have to at least throw them a bone, even though this is really more a priesthood function.” A woman can’t be prophetic after all: she doesn’t have the priesthood. And then the women choose topics (or are given topics) that don’t have much interest for men.
EXACTLY!
Interesting thanks for posting this. Husbands follow God and wives follow husbands in specific roles may be a formula that works or perhaps I should say worked as it demanded little change or growth from either party providing maximum marital stability. The church’s support for this probably kept contempt lower than it otherwise might have been. But shall we assume that we have already achieved the maturity of God? I think not further growth is required of us but psychological growth on the part of either party threatens marital stability and since people go through this at different rates and different times in their lives it often ends in divorce. So church members face a dilemma hang on to the old formula and remain immature but married or take a risk and grow.
The study of contempt in marital relationships outlined in Blink was very accurate in predicting divorce. Drawing the conclusion that Mormon marriages have some sort of underlying contempt is not supportable by any evidence cited. I have to say I think it’s a pretty weak argument.
You state: “mormon marriages are inherently hierarchal and most mormons see their marriage as a patriarchy where the male is the head of the household who presides.” Prove it. It’s not true in my observation that “preside” means anything in Mormon marriages. I see far more equality and partnership within marriages inside the church than I do outside the church, as evidenced by real life things like division of labor, willingness to change diapers, how people talk about their spouses (with respect, not contempt). Where contempt exists (as cited in Blink it was eye rolling and dismissive behavior when the other spouse talked), certainly that will lead to divorce. But I don’t see much of that in Mormon marriages. So you’re taking a really broad, institutional idea (that the church is patriarchal and hates women – which I have argued isn’t really true in any meaningful sense), and trying to apply that wholescale to individual marriages.
Hawkgrrrl, very well said.
Perhaps this is a stretch, but the thought came to me…that the bishop presides over the ward, that hierarchy is clear.
I don’t meet very many bishops that have contempt for RS Presidents or their wives or other members of the ward because they preside. And most members of the ward respect their bishops (not all, but the majority respect them or the position).
Those are different relationships than that of husband and wife, but my point is that hierarchy does not necessarily lead to contempt. Therefore, while Gottman can be confident in his predictions in a Blink, I do not think he would see that contempt in most temple marriages.
Shenpa warrior, stonewalling is just a different form of contempt it is saying that what they are saying is not even worth engaging in. With such a dismissive attitude it shows disregard to them which is the more insidious form of contempt.
Matt w, I Would agree with you that people aren’t antagonistic to women or homemakers, but I do think people judge them and see them lower. My mum was a homemaker and people didn’t take her seriously and have seen it in many other times. This failure to take them serious is a form of contempt.
Jared l.
I think that the point of gottman is that they observed contempt in couples who often did not realise that they were showing contempt. Which is what I was trying to show is that contempt is mist often manifest without us being aware of it. It was only on close inspection that it could be seen. I think this is how contempt is found in the church it is hidden.
Will,
I don’t have contempt for members who have a testimony of the family proclamation. I happen to think that it is inspired in places myself. I am more then happy to listen to that stance and accept that I could be wrong about this. I think this far away from having contempt for them.
I agree with you if people understood the true teachings it would elevate the status of women. But my point is that even though the famil proclamation contains truth it often is not applied fully in practice just as in ict tests people say they don’t agree with racism but then manifest racist associations. The same is true with contempt we profess equality and respect but as in the case of women speakers in practice they aren’t treated equally.
“stonewalling is just a different form of contempt it is saying that what they are saying is not even worth engaging in. With such a dismissive attitude it shows disregard to them which is the more insidious form of contempt.”
I disagree, and so would Gottman. Stonewalling comes from being emotionally flooded and unable to respond and engage. Someone who is stonewalling may indeed feel or use contempt as well though – I have seen one wife who stonewalled, but the husband was so big and angry that she finally would use contempt (saying something really mean and personal) to get him to back off.
Regardless, some amount of stonewalling occurs in most relationships, and according to Gottman whom you cite it is not nearly as bad as contempt, which is really the only negative emotion he suggests that couples need to eliminate.
I should add as well that partners often stonewall PRECISELY because their partner and their relationship IS important to them. They are stonewalling to prevent exploding because they don’t know what else to do.
I believe that what the girl in the MormonAd is wearing are commonly referred to as “Mom Jeans,” which is odd, since the point is that she isn’t yet a mom, I think. (http://www.hulu.com/watch/10333/saturday-night-live-mom-jeans)
And yes, I’m fully aware of the irony of making such a comment to a post talking about implicit assumptions we make about one another.
Jake: “I Would agree with you that people aren’t antagonistic to women or homemakers, but I do think people judge them and see them lower. My mum was a homemaker and people didn’t take her seriously and have seen it in many other times. This failure to take them serious is a form of contempt.” But it’s only relevant to your argument if LDS husbands are contemptuous (dismissive) of their own SAHM wives. That’s not the same thing as society in general viewing the choice to stay at home as “lower” somehow than deciding to have a career. It’s not relevant to the health of the marriages. In fact, if a spouse is more accepting than society is in general, that would lead to stronger dependency between spouses in the marriage (a “you and me against the world” mentality). I find that to be more common within the church; church members elevate the choice to stay at home above the choice to have a career, and husbands see the boon it is to have a wife at home supporting the family while they are off doing their career.
Here’s my real question for you, Jake – you are describing LDS men in very unflattering terms in your OP. Is that really what you experience? Are you married? How many married LDS couples do you see that behave in this way? Is it common across all generations and income levels? I truly don’t see much of what you are describing in practice. Even those over age 60 are guilty of romantic paternalism if anything (idealizing the role of women because they view women as serving male interests – read Will’s comments for an example), not contempt. Is this a UK thing?
Shenpa I think you are conflating insults and spiteful comments with contempt. Certainly in spite and vindictive comments contempt is manifest but contempt is different to that. It is the feeling if disdain, disrespect or the esteeming of something as little worth. Contempt then is what precedes insults.
You seem to be just referring to crisis or arguements in how you see contempt manifest. Gottman would disagree with you, that is only a fraction of the way in which contempt is manifest It is the most obvious way to see it but his his research shows that the most telling is when it is a normal situation that contempt is seen. Ie. In talking about a pet dog or a dinner conversation. It is important to distinguish contempt from the way it is manifest. Contempt can be had even if on the surface it seems pleasant and nice, however often it does result in mean comments when in a crisis.
Jake, fair enough. It feels like we’re talking past each other. I made the mistake of speaking for Gottman (one of my professional heroes), and then you did the same, so I can’t blame you. 😀
You are right – I was only referring to a specific type of situation. I’m not sure I get your point though.
“It is important to distinguish contempt from the way it is manifest”
What do you mean by this? It sounds like you’re talking about the difference between emotion and affect. If so, I agree – the emotion itself is not the exact same thing as the display of it.
On a separate issue that has been brought up here by Hawk – my wife is a SAHM, of her own choosing, and I definitely consider her job to be a LOT more important (on both a personal and a professional level) than mine. If she wanted to work, I would stay home, and then I’d consider MY job to be the most important. I don’t know thousands of people personally, but all the SAHMs I know are generally married to men who hold their wive’s responsibilities in the highest regard – the opposite of contempt I think. The only contempt I have seen toward SAHMs (or SAHDs!) is from people outside of the church – granted, they are probably a minority in my experience. Most people I know, members or not, have a ton of respect and admiration for SAHMs.
Jake: “Contempt can be had even if on the surface it seems pleasant and nice, however often it does result in mean comments when in a crisis.” Reverting to Gottman’s experiment in the book, and later chapters about the MACS facial reading, feelings of contempt that are not expressed verbally (7% of communication) are still manifest in facial expression (93% of communication). Gottman’s experiment did not merely document verbal contempt, but also (more importantly) contempt through body language. Again, I don’t see evidence for this as a cultural norm in LDS marriages. Do you? Shenpa, you counsel with LDS couples (admittedly a biased sample since they are in counseling) – do you see this?
jimbob – I agree that those jeans are most unflattering. I think this is just a dated Mormonad (looks like mid-80s Idaho fashion).
Indeed, Gladwell’s book (Blink) was making the point that we think there are “gut feelings”, but the experts (like Gottman) are really picking up unconscious cues that support their “gut feelings”, which is just as valid and sometimes more valid than over analyzing something, as was done with his other example of experts finding a forgery when over analysis argued the sculpture was likely authentic. Contempt would be made manifest in more non-verbal cues than verbal ones.
Hopefully I’m getting the question right, but in comparing LDS couples from non, I have seen no difference in terms of expressing contempt. The two biggest facial expressions of contempt – the eye roll and the raising up of the buccinator muscle in the cheek – I see with some couples a lot. A lot of people roll their eyes in jest, but if it’s sarcastic or during a fight it usually means contempt. The cheek muscle – Paul Ekman found that one. It’s a universal display of contempt, across ostensibly all cultures.
My personal sample is small and anecdotal though. The LDS couples who have a more similar approach to the church and the gospel, who both have an active faith, tend to come into counseling with at least that area very united, which can be a very positive force, and a protective factor that assists in their recovery. Contempt I would guess would be more of a problem for LDS couples when they aren’t very close at all in terms of beliefs. For example, I have spoken with many couples where one has left the church. There is often a TON of contempt in those relationships… you can just see it (sorry Jake, the “expression” of it, rather 🙂 ) in statements like, “How can you possibly believe this crap anymore?”
Comments:
1) The 6% figure is misleading. I know a number of people who are civilly divorced (and have been for years) but who are still “temple married”. It is quite difficult to get a temple divorce.
2) In the Church, there are a number of practices that are seemingly pointless or benign but which people follow for a “greater good” or for an “eternal” reason. I suspect people raised in the Church have an ability to translate this to a marriage, where they put up with something that makes them potentially unhappy for a “greater good” or an “eternal” reason.
3) While I do see some correlation presented in the OP, I don’t know about causation.
Hawk, great comments, every one. Thanks for your point of view.
So contempt causes divorce. LDS people have a low divorce rate, but you just KNOW that LDS people have contempt for women, ergo there has to be another explanation for the low divorce rate…I got it I got it! It’s because not only are LDS more contemptuous, they are more accepting of contempt and therefore it doesn’t cause divorce! LDS people are so, um, contemptible, that the contempt rule doesn’t even apply to them.
This is idiotic.
Jake’s hypothesis sort of rings true to me when I consider the dynamics of marriages from mine and my parent’s generation (I’m in my 50’s). Some of the “quiet lives of desperation” James describes at #2 sound very much like several friends of my parent’s who white knuckled it to the end.
Hawkgrrl,
I am finally at a computer. I wasn’t ignoring your comments but just needed some time to think about them and something better then a phone to type them up on.
Firstly you asked to prove that temple marriages are intrinsically hierarchal. In the temple it is explicit that the dynamics are as follows:
God – Husband – Wife
Where the wife hearkens to her husband as he follows God. I don’t see how you could interpret this as anything other then separate graduated levels, which makes it a hierarchy, or at the very least implies levels of division. As to preside as patriarch of the home, only last week I heard the phrase uttered and invoked multiple times in priesthood. Maybe its just a UK thing, but in every elders quorum I have been in I have heard it being taught. This seems to be implied in the temple dynamics the father presides and the wife hearkens. I am open to a reading of this that doesn’t seem to imply a hierarchy, I just have never heard or can see it.
You said that: “you’re taking a really broad, institutional idea (that the church is patriarchal and hates women – which I have argued isn’t really true in any meaningful sense), and trying to apply that wholescale to individual marriages.”
I don’t think the church hates women. I think the church is very positive about women, but that doesn’t stop it from being dismissive about them. I have been in too many ward councils, in multiple wards where the relief society president and young women’s president’s ideas have just been overlooked even though they were really good ideas. This is the same as every make I asked about what they thought of female general conference speakers, and they all said they didn’t really pay attention. This fits into my point and your objection about STHM and social values, because the cultural and social climate contributes to the attitudes that we all have. So if their is a dismissive cultural climate, which I think Mormonism is capable of promoting (even if this view is a misunderstood interpretation of the gospel) then it requires active resistance for it not to permeate into a marriage.
I think it is important to clarify what contempt actually means. The Oxford English dictionary defines it as: “the holding or treating as of little account, or as vile and worthless; the mental attitude in which a thing is so considered.” I think the key feature here is that it is the mental attitude that is defined as part of contempt that treats of little value, or as worthless. SO your point that many men in the church are very positive, change nappies etc. Is valid but it doesn’t prove that the mental attitude is not there. Just as in the case of ICT tests I mentioned the mental attitude was there even though everyone says they aren’t bias towards race. Just because the signs of contempt aren’t visible does not mean it isn’t there. This distinguishes the mental state or emotion from the affect of the emotion or mental state that appears in verbal and non-verbal action. As contempt primarily is internal rather then external. This fits into Gottman’s conception of contempt that states that it is: “contempt is speaking from a superior plane, it is a disregard of the views of the other as they are making them from a lower level” In speaking from a superior plane it must first come from mentally seeing themselves on a superior plane, or even being perceived as being on a superior plane (perhaps the idealisation of the priesthood contributes to this), and the speaking can be done in very pleasant and kind words it simply masks the unconscious mental state. The very structure of God – Man – Woman whilst it could be an equal set of planes, seems to be seen in higher and lower planes and thus making it a conducive climate to foster contempt in.
I agree with you that for the most part you do not see this contempt manifest in many couples. That in my experience it isn’t the norm for couples to be overtly contemptuous, but my point is not that this is the case in every marriage but that the temple marriage creates a climate that could encourage contempt and that it requires active resistance to prevent it. If it is not actively resisted through applying DC121, then it remains and because obedience and submission are seen as what it means to be righteous they are accepting of the disregard or the failure to hearken to the voice of the wife, because men are to hearken to God, not their wife. (The cynic in me wants to say that often this is a God made in their own image that the hearken to).
You said that “Gottman’s experiment did not merely document verbal contempt, but also (more importantly) contempt through body language. Again, I don’t see evidence for this as a cultural norm in LDS marriages. Do you?”
Well no, but then to be honest I don’t sit at church and inspect couples for non-verbal signs of contempt being shown. Perhaps if I did I might see it, most likely I wouldn’t though. Even so, I doubt that all of our mental states are manifest through body language, even the most dedicated behaviourist would not claim that we can discern all our mental states through observing the external body and verbal signs.
I guess that is the point that the temple marriage seems to me to create a mental state that puts men on a superior plane that creates a conducive climate for contempt, not that means defacto that all marriages will have it, but the potential for it is increased by virtue of it.
E,
I never said ‘I KNOW that LDS people have contempt for women, just that LDS teaching seem to encourage. I have never met every LDS person so I have no idea what all their attitudes. I am highlighting a tension that seems to me to be there. Nor did I say that they have more contempt then others.
“LDS people are so, um, contemptible, that the contempt rule doesn’t even apply to them.”
Yes that is idiotic, but that’s not my point, nor what I am saying but that’s yours.
Thinking about it. My argument is not really about all LDS marriages, as most are not like this. I think it is simply that it accounts for the 20-30% or so of marriages that outside of the church may have ended in divorce, but because they are in the church the contempt is rendered acceptable and tolerated.
Jake: It is amazing that you didn’t slip a disc with your (lack of sound) reasoning. The evidence is contrary to your hypothesis, but no reason to let a lot of good facts get in the way of your contempt hypothesis. Your hypothesis doesn’t ring true for me at all. What is truly contemptible is your failure to martial any sound reason except a misuse of the Blink tests of speech. Where is your evidence that contempt would show up in Mormon marriages based on the patriarchal order? There is none. What is the logical argument that the Mormon marriages must exhibit contempt. There is none. Where is the basis to believe that what you assert has any basis? There is none.
Blake,
So where is the evidence to the contrary and the facts that I am missing? I am more then open to the suggestion that I am completely wrong about this if you can point me to some facts that you seem to think are so numerous that they disprove everything I have suggested.
However, I would direct you to the point that Gottman makes that contempt comes from speaking from a superior plane, it is the esteeming of oneself above the other. If the Patriarchal order promotes a hierarchy then it is very conducive to creating a climate of contempt. Yes, it might not result in this most of the time, but it increases the possibility of it. But perhaps you can explain to me how it is not a hierarchy?
As as soon as you place one person above another it creates the possibility for contempt. As if one is above the other then it takes a lot to not treat the other level with disregard, or esteem them less. (which are both key definitions of contempt, see dictionary). I think DC 121:39 is good evidence to the contrary of all of your points that they can result in contempt. Contempt is simply the mental state that leads to unrighteous dominion.
The premise of this post is incorrect. Utah has the 14th highest divorce rate in the United States. If so many Mormon marriages stay married, one would expect a much, much lower divorce rate in the state of Utah. Temple marriages (some large percentage of marriages in Utah) must end in divorce at least as often as the national average, and probably slightly (or much) more often.
Click to access Divorce%20in%20US_2008.pdf
Blake what evidence are you talking about?
“If the Patriarchal order promotes a hierarchy then it is very conducive to creating a climate of contempt.”
Well, this is a good research question, anyway, i.e. “Do patriarchal marriages have higher rates of contempt than non-patriarchal marriages?” If someone could study that and separate out all the confounding variables, we might be able to find something. Until then, this idea of hierarchy facilitating contempt in a marriage is speculation.
I am interested though in other relationships that are hierarchical – such as a parent and a child. I certainly have power over my kids. Does having that power make it more likely that I will have contempt as well?
I don’t think there is anything wrong with speculation considering how specific studies are speculation is often necessary to practically apply them. Without speculation we might as well just swap study links and call it a day.
Oh I didn’t say there was anything wrong with speculation per se… only that when it comes to marriage, speculation like this sucks me in to talking about something that has no evidence upon which to speculate. You’re right though, without speculation on this post we might as well call it a day. 🙂
Come on, you can’t dislike a smiley face. The post is speculative. That’s OKAY! We have zero evidence about this, that’s okay too! Here’s another smiley for you. 🙂
Jake: “I have been in too many ward councils, in multiple wards where the relief society president and young women’s president’s ideas have just been overlooked even though they were really good ideas.” That kind of dismissiveness is actually not at all consistent with what I see. In most wards I’ve been in, the RS president is essentially the first counselor.
“This is the same as every man I asked about what they thought of female general conference speakers, and they all said they didn’t really pay attention.” Well, I have to go with the men on that one, but so many of those talks really suck, so what are you going to do? It’s like the argument against Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin among feminists – the time has come for a female president, just not that one!
I agree with Shenpa that your premise is really the basis for a good research question, but the research hasn’t been done, and there’s sufficient anecdotal evidence that contradicts it to derail your premise.
“Firstly you asked to prove that temple marriages are intrinsically hierarchal.” That’s not what I asked you to prove. I asked you to prove that LDS men do anything that can reasonably be called ‘presiding.’ I think our hierarchical talk is a fiction that doesn’t match the practical realities of married couples in the church. Weirdly, we talk of hierarchy and presiding, but we act on equality and shared responsibility. I think the hierarchy and preside talk is a nod to the geezers and nothing more. It has no bearing on the daily reality I see in the church. If your experience differs, that’s worth discovering why.
Just a couple quick thoughts:
Ditto what djinn said. I’d never heard that 6% statistic. I *have* heard statistics stating that LDS marriages end in divorce about as often (maybe somewhat less) as other marriages. And if that 6% is only counting people whose sealings have been cancelled, then I am really annoyed at the person who created that statistic and used it to suggest that Mormons are better at marriage. It’s meaningless. It suggests that people who are “only” civilly divorced somehow “aren’t REALLY divorced.” Like they are just “on a break.” Yeah, right.
I don’t disagree with Jake’s reasoning, but I wonder, like hawkgrrl, just how many LDS folks really believe that in marriage and family men preside (whatever that means). I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that, in contrast to what Jake suggests, most people quote the “preside” line, while subconsciously they have fairly egalitarian views about who should have how much power and control in a marriage.
I don’t know how many LDS men hold contempt for their wives or how it arises, but I do think that the expectation for men to “preside” and be righteous priesthood holders that magnify their callings and attend meetings and never so much as peek at porn or masturbate, might tend to breed contempt among wives for their husbands. ANY slip-up in personal worthiness or doing church stuff becomes grounds for a woman to see her partner as an unworthy priesthood holder, and thus an unworthy spouse.
I think that contempt is probably the biggest factor in divorces. But I disagree that a hierarchial relationship necesarily causes contempt. I look at Abraham’s example in deferring to Sarah’s judgement as an example. He was a prophet and recognixed as a prince among his neighbors, living in a time when a husband was lord and master of his family, to the point that he had the power of life and death. Yet, his actions and words portrayed no contempt for Sarah, but a deep respect for her opinions.
I think that the low temple divorce rate is not because it is so difficult. It really is not. It is rather more difficult than civil divorces, but that is another story.
I think that temple divorce rates are lower because, on the whole, those who put forth the effort to be married or sealed in the temple come to understand their own roles in the gospel theme better and to appreciate the roles that their spouses play better. They realize that “neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (Corinthians 11:11)
Glenn
I tried to enter this on my android phone, but it didn’t go, so here is my take:
While patriarchy at the local level (i.e. individual families) may be downplayed through anecdotal experience, we can’t overlook the teachings we have in the temple that professly dictate some sort of patriarchy (God -> Man -> Woman). Many people take that to mean God -> Marriage, but there is a certain non-zero chance that some marriages in Mormon and FLDS culture are distinctly patriarchal. To say it’s rare is to likely ignore man’s penchant for being controlling and domineering, even if in subtle ways (see D&C 121). Women can be that way, too, but it’s more men’s M.O. than women’s.
That said, my personal experience is that marriages are mostly equal, that the word “preside” generally means little more than calling on someone to pray and that the Church (capital ‘C’) is much more patriarchal than we’d like to admit.
I’ve been told, frequently, that where my (the husband) opinion differs from the Church, something along the lines of: “Yeah, but the Church teaches …” or “Yeah, but the Prophets have counseled … ” or similarly. When we take those two statements, it’s hard to think of anything but patriarchy. The “prophet” term is a strictly masculine word which depicts 15 aged white men telling the average member what to do. When someone references “The Church teaches…” it’s likewise implied/assumed that it’s referring to the leadership, all of whom are male (when was the last time you heard anyone pulling out a quote to add weight to any argument in the blogosphere from a general relief society president, or YW president?).
So the contempt that has entered my marriage is primarily from an intruding 3rd party – that of “The Church” – so much so that it forces conformity on members (and I’m certain I’m not the only member to feel the intrusion) to play along with the Church. I honestly cannot count how many times I’ve heard the words “Yeah, but the Church teaches…” as a way to downplay my thoughts, opinions or ideas. It’s an appeal to patriarchy as a way to replace “unworthy” priesthood holders (unworthy being defined as disagreeing with modern church teachings in any shape or form), and as a way to limit the effect unworthy spouses might otherwise have on a family unit.
Since were discussing anecdotal evidence. . . I have sat in many RS mtgs and listened to ladies talk about the importance of letting their husbands make the decisions and going along even when said decisions are seemingly distasteful/nonsensical. I have also experienced men who talk in glowing terms about women on their pedestals but then fail to take these women seriously outside the accepted “womanly realm.” I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle–many LDS couples tend to make an effort towards an egalitarian marriage but still have to juggle doctrinal notions of “presiding” and the clearly hierarchal/patriarchal language in the sealing and endowment.
djinn,
“The premise of this post is incorrect. Utah has the 14th highest divorce rate in the United States.”
Ha ha ha. I knew there was a glaring error somewhere. 🙂
Shenpa, “speculation like this sucks me in to talking about something that has no evidence upon which to speculate”
I should have perhaps made it clear that I wasn’t trying to provide a normative explanation and this was more speculation on a contradiction that I thought existed. I do however think that there is evidence to speculate from and that is that contempt leads to divorce and that their is a tension that exists between patriarchy and its possibility of causing contempt, and I think it is from that tension between the two that we can speculate. I took a very cynical line in the post but I am personally inclined to think like hawkgrrl that for the most part this is not the case in most marriages. I do think it does create a scenario that allows for it but this is never actually manifested very often, although I have seen it in many couples who have abused or misunderstood it.
hawkgrrl: “I think our hierarchical talk is a fiction that doesn’t match the practical realities of married couples in the church. Weirdly, we talk of hierarchy and presiding, but we act on equality and shared responsibility.”
I think this highlights another tension that I think is more interesting regarding public discourse and practice. I guess my question is then if hierarchal talk if put into practice, as I argued, results in a space for contempt, why is it not the case? What is it that means that hierarchy although taught and spoke about it is not applied in practical realities? What are the factors that prevent a hierarchal relationship from descending into contempt? And why do you think that members have the preside rhetoric that doesn’t fit with practice? Again, this is speculation, but I think that it raises a more interesting point. There clearly seems to be a tension between an egalitarian marriage and hierarchal language which I think is interesting to consider why this tension arises.
Speaking from experience, I don’t think that submitting to contempt is a product of an LDS culture, but a product of an abusive culture.
Patriarchy does not necessarily HAVE to be abusive. Patriarchy can be used as a tool in a relationship that would be abusive anyways. (And I mean abusive in the most basic sense of the word, not just physically abusive.)
I don’t think you could test the validity of your hypothesis without factoring in abusive dynamics.
That Utah has the 14th highest divorce rate is meaningless without knowing what percrentage of Utah marriages are temple marriages.
#40: HG, right on. Your experience and mine have been similar. Counsels I’ve participated on have had bishops and stake presidents practically begging the sisters for their input.
And Jake, I’m still stuggling with some institutional reason for men’s not paying attention to female speakers in conference. That you don’t seems to be your problem.
#43, George: “when was the last time you heard anyone pulling out a quote to add weight to any argument in the blogosphere from a general relief society president, or YW president?”
I think Julie Beck pretty much has rock star status in the bloggernacle. Talks from the YW and Gen’l RS meetings are used as much as talks from the core conference session in our ward and stake. During the recent broadcasts on Handbook II, women (including the remarkable Julie Beck) played a key role in the discussions, demonstrations and roundtables.
And I want to add as well that there are plethoras of subcultures besides LDS which lend themselves to hierarchal thinking. You would have to study the hypothesis in those cultures as well. See if divorce rates were lower or higher in those situations.
Hmmm, Jake, I think this is a great research topic, and I’d love to see it addressed. You’ve got too many unsound logic leaps for me to be on board though. However, having said that, I do agree that women in our culture are in a sense raised to endure/embrace patriarchy at their own expense. This translates into careers (women like Hawkgrrrl are an exception), not embracing talks by women with the same zeal as talks by men, sexual relationships, etc.
There is certainly institutional patriarchy, and that reaches down to the family at some level. But in the last half century the church has done SO much to quelch abuse, and male/priesthood domination as to make priesthood in the home almost negligible except for the occasional blessing.
In Blink, the issue the couple was discussing was one they disagreed about, not something like what to eat for dinner.
I think the willingness of both members of a couple to listen to the other’s thoughts and perspectives (despite disagreement) is key. I think this is something many marriages struggle with, LDS and non LDS.
I think part of the premise of the original post stands. There may be contempt and disrespect within relationships or marriages and people are not aware of it. Often a person”in charge” thinks they are doing a great job, but that’s not always the case…
#39 shenpa:
I HAD to dislike this comment regardless of what it actually said. It was like a slow ball lobbed across the plate, and I had to take a swing.
Sorry. 🙂
I don’t have time to read all the comments right now. Wanted to put in my reaction to the OP.
I am female, so I don’t know when my husband feels contempt, but I can tell when I feel contempt. I feel contempt when he doesn’t act like a good husband or act like a good man. So, if my idea of a good man means good leader of the family and good Mormon I feel contempt when he doesn’t live up to that.
Most women are not threatened if their husband is taller, stronger or smarter than them.
Men, however, are threatened by different things. If a women is less physically strong he rarely feels contempt for her.
So I believe that her being on a different plane does not always mean he treats her with contempt.
LOL Mike you curmudgeon you. 😛
Paul:
You stretching here. It simply doesn’t happen in any real frequency. Take your average blog, gather the quotes used by people to support their articles and at least 9x out of 10, those quotes will be from male leaders. I honestly can’t think of a time when someone quoted a female leader, nor a time when someone quoted a female leader in hoping to convince someone of something.
Honestly, there is a substantial difference between any conversation in the church where someone says, “Yeah, but President Monson says…” versus “Yeah, but Julie Beck says…”. They’re not even remotely close to each other.
I have never attended a ward where a single talk from YW or Gen’l RS meetings were used either in our ward, or our stake in the past decade. Not one time. I may have missed a meeting or three over that decade, but I have never seen it used… and, if used, certainly not a female leader. In fact, the only 5th Sunday lessons, talks from the Ensign/Liahona or GC reports used have been by members of either the FP or Qof12. Regular old GAs haven’t even been allowed to pierce that stratosphere.
Sure, maybe it’s only anecdotal, but over 6 stakes and 8+ wards during those 10+ years, I can’t recall one single instance. Contrast that with the Mormon blogosphere adding quotes from live/dead prophets or apostles and there’s very few women quotes floating around. For as much respect as you and others have for Beck, the average male or female member is much more likely to namedrop Monson or Hinckley or Ballard or Packer or some other male leader in any conversation, by a margin of at least 15-to-1. I honestly have not seen it happen, but maybe we could start pulling out quotes just to help advance the trend.
I like Julie Beck. But when it comes down it, if she has a different opinion than someone in the FP, Q12 or 70, she gets trumped.
Would we expect Julie Beck to express a different opinion from the FP or 12? I wouldn’t.
George, I guess your anecdotal evidence is better (to you) than mine (three stakes, three countries, five wards).
There is no quesiton that those men whom we sustain as prophets, seers and revelators will be quoted often — by Julie Beck, 70’s, SPs, bishops and family night lessons. Why would we expect anything different?
My only point is that their talks are not universally ignored (at least in units I’ve attended), nor should they be.
I have enjoyed the talks by the Sisters who don’t speak in a baby/primary voice in General Conference. I particularly like Sister Allred, Sister Thompson, Sister Beck and have been liking Sister Dalton more and more.
I use their quotes where appropriate and would be more than happy to quote them in a talk.
The other thing I’ve been itching to say is that I don’t think the church’s role prescriptive / pseudo-patriarchy creates contempt or dismissiveness. I think it does create a lack of intimacy for a few reasons: 1) because worthiness trumps compatibility for some in spouse selection, 2) because some have a belief that there will be eventual polygamy or that marriage in “eternity” is incomprehensible and somehow more real than daily marriage today, and 3) because gender roles may viewed from an unbridgeable distance, with detachment and respect, almost like professional colleagues working in siloes.
Lack of intimacy is not contempt. It doesn’t lead to divorce, just superficial marriages.
I read the introduction to an anti-Mormon book many years ago that said, basically:
“You see them. They look happy. Their kids seem well-adjusted and do well in school. They work hard and are good neighbors. BUT, they really are horrible cultist wolves who are just putting on sheep’s clothing to devour unsuspecting sheep.”
Frankly, that introduction jumped into my mind immediately upon reading this post – and I don’t mean to imply at all that this post is anti-Mormon. I just think it’s flawed in the same core way. The post seems to say:
“Temple marriages have the lowest divorce rate maeasured among religious sub-groups. Contempt is the major factor in divorce. Mormonism’s hierarchical structure and culture breeds contempt. Therefore, temple marriages should have the highest divorce rates. They don’t. Therefore, the only explanation is that Mormons are conditioned specifically to put up with contempt – even though the research quoted says that doesn’t work. Mormons, therefore, must be particularly contemptuous, if their heightened contempt doesn’t produce higher divorce rates.”
My head is spinning.
Maybe – just maybe – temple-married Mormons **generally** are among those who can live in a cultural structure that otherwise would breed contempt without actually internalizing contempt. All I know from personal experience is that the VAST majority of temple-married Mormons I have known in my life are not contemptuous of their spouses – no matter the actual structure of their marriages when it comes to responsibilities and roles.
Re: #33- First, there is research that supports the view that the divorce rate among temple-married Mormons is about 6%. See here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_divo.htm
I’m always interested in the assumptions some are willing to engage without evidence. Djinn’s assertion that Utah’s general divorce rates mirrors that general US divorce rate is logically fallacious. Not all Utahns are Mormon and not all Mormons are married in the temple. It is the same fallacy as arguing that Mr. Smith must be a very wealthy person because he lives in Delaware which has the highest per capita income of any state. It is called the logical fallacy of division.
Jake: I don’t need evidence that divorce rates are lower among temple-married Mormons (tho I just provided it) because you are the one asserting that a belief in patriarchy leads to contempt (without evidence) and that such contempt must show up in divorce statistics for Mormons (without evidence). You have the burden of proof here because you are the one making the assertions. I agree that it is a good research question since the prior research suggesting a 6% rate of Mormons married in the temple is open to some question — but the assertions of this post are much more open to question because there is 0 evidence to back it up.
I admit that I’m not impressed with anecdotal evidence about how someone felt women were being slighted either since: (a) one’s own experience may not be representative; and (b) such impressions are likely mere judgments that reflect personal issues rather than some objective or observable evidence.
Blake, you miss the point. I agree that temple-marriages have lower divorce rates, my point is that a patriarchal marriage creates a climate that is conducive to contempt, so you would expect a higher divorce rate. Because there isn’t I suggest that one reason for this could be that people just get used to contempt, due to a cultural disregard to women.
A personal experience today that supports my assertion that women expect to be disregarded in church. In a leadership meeting today, a member of the europe area presidency’s wife said in her talk that ‘she will not speak for very long, because she knows that people really only want to listen to her husband.’ I think that shows that she expected people to pay more attention to her husband then her. This was taught to leaders so I think its fair to say its not just anecdotal evidence.
#59
I don’t think that they are more contemptuous. I just think that in some cases living with contempt is sold as part of being a good obedient submissive wife. So mistakenly they put up with it.
“Maybe – just maybe – temple-married Mormons **generally** are among those who can live in a cultural structure that otherwise would breed contempt without actually internalizing contempt. ”
I think you are right, I think this is generally the case. What intrigues me then is what is it that makes us resistant now to it? As I think in the past the church did have a stance that was very dismissive (or treated with contempt) women, so what has changed so that we are more resilient to it?
There’s a big difference between saying that women put up with being dismissed or overlooked in church to applying that to individual marriages, either that husbands behave that way to wives (there are far more influences on behavior than just church culture – for example one’s parents) and that wives in turn accept contempt from their spouses. That’s a lot of assumptions to stack on top of each other.
Re: #62 – Like I said, I’m not persuaded by anecdotal evidence. Further, even the anecdotal evidence doesn’t support the view of contempt that was addressed in Blink. Now if you have voice studies showing that Mormons speak with contempt in their voices to women — or each other — at a greater rate than the public generally, I’d be interested in that kind of study. As it stands, your assertions are not merely speculation, but claim support from the Blink study which is really, as I see it, just a logically unjustified leap — in other words, an unjustified assumption. However, it is proper to warn us against unrighteous dominion. I just don’t buy the equation implicit in your post: patriarchal order = contempt for women = unrighteous dominion.
#62: Let’s see. In a leadership meeting, a person who does not hold a position of leadership was invited to speak and spoke briefly so those in leadership positions could listen to the person called to lead them? That does not seen strange to me.
When I was a bishop, I said the same thing when I spoke at a ward conference on the same program as our stake president; I yielded a portion of my time to him.
In stake conference, our stake president does the same thing when a GA visits.
If I were attending a leadership meeting with my wife (who is in our stake RS presidency), I would not expect to be invited to speak at all.
I don’t see how your example proves your point.
Blake:
Help me out here, since you seem to know more about this stuff than I do. First, all of our lives (everyone here and elsewhere) is little more than our attempt to make sense of the universe based on “anecdotal” evidence. Where you say you’re not “persuaded” by such is merely an excuse to repudiate someone’s comment. You might not have any such evidence in your life, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or isn’t worthwhile. I’d be my life’s savings (might be negative right now, but still), that your life is built up around anecdotal information. You base your belief structure on the evidence life provides you, then move on from there. We all do – we might all call it different things, but it essentially boils down to similar structures. Methinks you might be more persuaded [that’s not the same as being persuaded either, so don’t jump to any conclusions… just making an observation] by anecdotal information if you were to have seen such information in your own life, but that’s neither here nor there.
That said, help me out with your statistical discussion on divorce rates. If, for discussion sake only, Utah has a 75% LDS population (active or not) and, for discussion only, is 10th of 50 states in divorce rates. Are you suggesting that it’s a fallacious argument to assume or even postulate that LDS people get divorced at at least the same, if not higher, rate than the average Joe and Jill somewhere else?
Likewise, your use of the statistic you quoted ignores the likelihood that many [more] marriages within the LDS culture end via civil divorce, but somehow don’t get temple divorce. That can be because they don’t go the extra mile to petition an earthly authority for something they already assented to in their personal lives, the temple divorce isn’t granted, they no longer are “active” and thus it’s of little value to them and on and on. Whatever the reason, it’s notoriously hard to get a temple divorce, but quite the opposite to get a civil divorce. So, I’m not persuaded by anybody’s use of the 6% [or whatever it is] divorce rate among temple marriages unless there is some qualifier to denote how many temple marriages exist on the books where ta civil divorce has been granted. Somewhere, somebody has access to that information and I would be interested in that metric.
“I would suggest that a reason not often considered is that women are taught to live with and enjoy contempt. They have been indoctrinated into a culture where women are expected to occupy a lower role, where men via the priesthood automatically are placed higher then women.” “To what extent do women accept that this is the case and learn to live with, and even like, this dynamic?”
I know there are others who may have had experiences as you’ve described here, Jake, but I have to disagree as to the generalization as to what “mormon women are taught.” I have never been taught this, nor would I stand for it. Sure, relationships as you describe exist, because people are people and are flawed in more ways under the sun than I can count. But being taught that men are ‘above’ women because they hold the priesthood, and therefore are better than the other half of God’s children has never been a message from the scriptures nor from the teachings of the Savior, nor from the church.
What about the roles outlined in the temple? Those who are permitted to enter the temple and participate in those covenants are expected to have a testimony of Jesus Christ and (therefore, hopefully) have studied his words and his life. He set an example of what it means to ‘preside.’ He lead, he taught, he ordained (only) men to carry the responsibility of administering ordinances of his church through the priesthood. He served others (men and women) and ministered with compassion and righteousness. Will this patriarchy structure last through the eternities? Who knows? But my understanding is that this is the framework he has advised for us in this life, as a way to help us to become more like him. Whether it does or not is incumbent upon us.
“If the secret to a long lasting marriage in mormonism is an acceptance of contempt of women, is this a bad thing if it results in long lasting marriages?” As many have mentioned already, the “Amen to the priesthood of that man” lesson in D&C 121 is a reminder to both men and women how serious the Lord is about this topic. Humility, charity and faith in Christ, in both parties of a marriage, is what is taught – that is what I believe is the “secret to a long lasting marriage” and stands in direct contrast to the culture of contempt you suggest.
Blake:
I think your Delaware analogy misses the point, or wasn’t thought through very well.
True, not all Utahns are Mormons (but a statistically significant amount of them are). True, not all Mormons are temple married (but a statistically significant amount of them are).
For the temple analogy, put Mr. Smith in Utah and it’d look like this: Mr. Smith -> Utah -> Mormon -> Married -> Temple Married Mormon [An exclusive group among Mormons]
For your analogy to even remotely approximate this analogy in Delware, it’d have to look something like this: Mr. Smith -> Delaware -> Lawyer [or some other industry that’s recognized as having above average salaries] -> Member of the Bar -> Specialized lawyer [some subset that is “exclusive” amongst lawyers and which the Bar Association in DE clamors for more of, I’m gonna guess some sort of corporate attorney].
Maybe then you can adequately apply your analogy. Until then, maybe we should just stay away from the “anecdotal” information.
@ #68:
Now, I recognize that many of these higher/lower teachings are changing, but to say they aren’t or haven’t been taught is misleading at best. Seriously, all you have to do is open up a copy of your nearest YW manual to find a teaching or three that would satisfy what you’re claiming was never taught to you. More likely, you selected what matched your internal barometer and moved on from there.
I found this list somewhere and though some of the items are stretches or duplicative, virtually all LDS girls are taught from childhood to do all 24 of the following:
• be respectfully, politely, humbly and gratefully subservient to Mormon males in personal demeanor, activities, beliefs, plans and thought.
• not be, nor aspire to be, nor hope to be, independent from authoritarian males, nor independent in thought.
• attend male-directed religious services.
• participate in male-directed activities. (Even female-led projects are organized under male authorities.)
• attend male-directed weekday seminary classes in addition to academic school.
• obey all male-hierarchy-generated directives.
• submit to male-originated personal-matter (including sexual) private interviews.
• obtain a Patriarchal Blessing which usually promises becoming a mother in Zion if faithful and obedient.
• do genealogy research on male-headed (patriarchal) family lineages.
• marry an LDS man in an LDS temple.
• accept counsel from her husband, and not as just his opinion, but as God-inspired revelation.
• look to her husband as essential to her entry into the best category of Heaven.
• have children, more being far better than few.
• raise all of her children in this exact-same system.
• attend only the chapel assigned to her residence address, regardless of preference.
• accept that if she and family attend any other than this chapel, she and they cannot enter Mormon temples.
• know that her husband may, in the next life, marry numerous additional wives.
• know that she may not marry any additional husband, here (if still married to the first one) or hereafter.
• accept callings to work in church, auxiliary and welfare-project organizations.
• make several forms of financial contributions, ten percent tithing being only one.
• teach her children to become missionaries to convert other individuals into this same system.
• teach this same system to her grandchildren.
• teach her daughters and granddaughters to obey males at home and at church.
• never openly criticize any doctrine, practice, directive or male authority related to any of the above.
From childhood, the LDS female is thoroughly trained to be, in behavior and thought, submissive to a long and imposing list of males with authority linking directly to God Himself. This list, proceeding from the least authority upward, includes but is not limited to these several dozens:
• her husband,
• her three bishopric males,
• her two home-teacher males,
• her three stake presidency males,
• Quorum of the Seventy males,
• Presiding Bishopric males,
• Church Patriarch (a male),
• Assistants to the Twelve Apostles,
• Quorum of Twelve (male) Apostles,
• First Presidency (who are three additional male Apostles).
She learns that she absolutely cannot enter the highest heavenly kingdom without a temple-married husband. She is totally dependent upon her husband because:
• Her husband will lead her by hand “through the veil” to celestial existence,
• Her role in heaven will be to continue forever bearing offspring for him as one of his wives.
• She knows there is no approved escape from this God-decreed, interminable destiny for females, because it is the system that existed for gods in pre-existent worlds prior to this earth, and will exist without end in the future for her, her husband-god and vast numbers of other gods.
I agree there are numerous ways around these teachings/possible understandings, but to say that it simply doesn’t happen (or isn’t happening) probably isn’t accurate.
P.S. Thought this article might be worth reading for some in this discussion – MORMON WOMEN, PROZAC® and THERAPY:
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/prozac.htm
Interesting observations…
David,
1) “She learns that she absolutely cannot enter the highest heavenly kingdom without a temple-married husband.”
That EXACT same thing is taught to men with regard to a temple-married wife.
2) “Her husband will lead her by hand through the veil to celestial existence.”
Actually, the Lord leads BOTH men and women through the veil. A woman’s husband does so the very first time she goes through (assuming she hasn’t served a mission or been endowed previously) – but that is nothing more than an attempt to create a special moment for a soon-to-be-married couple. If it was as you describe, the husband would be the one on the other side of the veil each time she went though – and the man who is does NOT represent her husband. He represents the Lord. Period.
3) “Her role in heaven will be to continue forever bearing offspring for him as one of his wives.”
Please provide a link to that statement from General Conference or an apostle in the last 30 years or so.
4) “She knows there is no approved escape from this God-decreed, interminable destiny for females, because it is the system that existed for gods in pre-existent worlds prior to this earth, and will exist without end in the future for her, her husband-god and vast numbers of other gods.”
How is that ANY different than what awaits men in Mormon theology – again, contingent on a statement in the last 30 years or so that every marriage in the Celestial Kingdom will be polygamous?
Oh, and David, just to make it clear, nothing in your comments describes a husband who is contemptuous of his wife. This could spiral into a rant against polygamy (and I can join you in that rant, in some ways), but that’s not the point of the post. This post says the Mormon hierarchical, patriarchal structure breeds contempt for wives by their husbands and conditions wives to accept it – and nothing in your comments addresses that charge in any way.
Ray-
“A woman’s husband does so the very first time she goes through (assuming she hasn’t served a mission or been endowed previously) – but that is nothing more than an attempt to create a special moment for a soon-to-be-married couple.”
A few points- if a woman received her endowment long before her sealing then there is a veil ceremony done so that the husband can take her through. Every sealed woman has been taken through the veil by her husband.
That practice and a few other things I think are good reasons to believe that those who take women through the veil at other times are acting as proxy for *her* Lord, or her husband.
Even if this is not how most people currently interpret it, I think it is certainly a legitimate interpretation, and quite likely *used* to be the standard interpretation. If you doubt this I could lob a few quotes at you.
Ray:
I added it to foster to the discussion. Excuse me if I didn’t overtly used the word “contemptuous” or “contempt.”
The fact of the matter is that if you follow the link I provided – or find your own though some simple google search – is that there are many women who feel inferior to men because of the structure that is currently set up, so much so that some become prone to depression, anxiety, psychosomatic issues and other problems all related to their Mormon religious experience. Whether those symptoms are enough for, eventually, contempt to breed, or for a statistically significant correlation, is left to you to decide on your own.
So yes, my comments did address “that charge in [some] way,” should you choose to do a little reading between the lines without getting tripped up on exact wording or phraseology. Whether that way is enough to satisfy you is not my responsibility as I don’t really have a horse in this race.
Ray @ 72:
That would be humorous if it wasn’t so doctrinally challenged. It simply is not set up to create “a special moment”.
P.S. Perhaps you overlooked my initial qualifier on that list I provided, but to clarify once again:
It was a list I found and have little interest supporting with a “Please provide a link to that statement from General Conference or an apostle in the last 30 years or so.” That request, fwiw, is the epitome of LDS quote-whoring that you can read about here, and something I will take no part in. Simply because something is said in GC or by an apostle doesn’t necessarily make something true, or valid, or whatever.
P.S.
Am I to understand that if something hasn’t been mentioned in the past 30 years that that something has been dropped from the “official” curricula of the church and is no longer a required belief? Who knew!!
Getting back to the OP, here’s the logic that was being loosely applied: doctrine > culture > psychological implications > individual impacts. Of course, people don’t live in a vacuum. Many more things are involved in their psychological make-up than just church culture. And there is also the obvious question of what church culture actually is. If the things on the list David found are “doctrine,” I would argue that they are not all “culture.” IOW, we (as a group) don’t really believe it, because we don’t live it.
No thanks, David. I have no interest in engaging further, since I’m a quote whore. Actually, it’s because you totally misunderstood and misrepresented my request, but the quote whore charge is much funnier – especially since those who know me know how much I hate it when people rely on isolated quotes to make their points.
I’ll leave it simply by repeating that I know far fewer active LDS husbands who are contemptuous of their wives than non-LDS husbands – thus, according to the reasoning of the treatise described in this post, resulting in fewer divorces. I’m saying I agree with the conclusions of Blink that are outlined in this post.
Ironic, I know.
Oh, and what Hawk said in her last comment.
@70 – David – Two years of my release time seminary classes were taught by women. Of course they were called and set apart by men, but they were the teachers. So I don’t agree with that item.
Also, I don’t agree with the male-directed family genealogy – we always researched both sides of the family, males and females. I’m not sure what you meant by that.
That six percent figure is for people married in the temple who then civilly divorce. It is not counting cancellation of sealings. The webpage you linked gives a link to its source for the six percent figure, a adherents.com copy of an LA Times article quoting a BYU professor Daniel K. Judd. The Times article said “While other Mormons divorce at the usual rate, only 6% of those who undergo the demanding temple marriage break up, according to Brigham Young University professor Daniel K. Judd.”
That number is from the 80′s. There’s a transcript at the URL below of some interview between Judd and Robert Millet about divorce. Page 7 of the PDF discusses numbers with the estimate that current temple divorce rate is about 20%. “Now in the early 80´s a Latter-day Saints rates of divorce among those married in the temple actually, who then had to get a civil divorce. [. . .] It was actually about 6 percent. Now, unlike the nation, that divorce rate´s been fairly stable over time. What we see in the research is that divorce rates have actually climbed since then. Nation has stayed stable, our rates have climbed. But is it higher than the national average? Heavens no! And so the best survey research we have is around a 20 percent, is about where we are.”
Click to access Mormon%20Identity%20Episode%2020%20Transcript.pdf
I see that Radio LDS link above no longer works. I last used it July of last year when this misunderstanding came up before. Here is a current link to Daniel K. Judd’s words affirming that the outdated six percent figure was for civil divorce of temple marriages, not for cancellation of sealing:
John:
I think I’m missing something here. In a couple places you state that:
A: “…the outdated six percent figure was for civil divorce of temple marriages, not for cancellation of sealing.”
But then you state:
A: “…“While other Mormons divorce at the usual rate, only 6% of those who undergo the demanding temple marriage break up, according to Brigham Young University professor Daniel K. Judd.”
That to me reads like the 6% figure is only for those civilly divorced who go the extra 10 miles to get a temple divorce, not a figure representing the number of temple marriages who go through the civil divorce. Is that correct?
Ray:
Simple English would suggest that “quote whoring” is not the same as “quote whore,” but take that how you want. It’s an action, though that action doesn’t necessarily make you that something. If I see you runn-ing down the street, it might be fair for me to call you a “runn-er”, unless you’re merely running to escape something. If I hear you fart-ing in the foyer, is it fair for me to call you the farter? What about if I hear you say, “I’m pimping this …”, is it fair for me to assume you’re an actual pimp?
Seriously, you can fall back on the “those who know me” schpeel, but in reality 99% of the blogosphere doesn’t know you and those who have read what you wrote will note that you’re calling for quotes from the last 30 years to buttress a belief. That is, to me, quote whoring – basing your beliefs on a quote. The presence of a quote validates your belief whereas the absence vindicates you.
Moving on…
David – Although you’ve moved on, I would like to add my perspective. The “Blogosphere” – if you are referring to the “Bloggernacle” then I’d say maybe 10% or more know Ray, if not more. As for people on THIS blog, most of us know him or have interactions online with him.
PS: @ aerin
You will note that it’s not my list. I can’t say that enough.
That said, what I think the original author is getting at is that Genealogy is based off of patriarchal lines. Yes, you can do the genealogy for your moms + dads side, but it’s still based off of patriarchal lines. That may or may not be an issue with the church as that’s how society has dealt with the issue for centuries. Like I said before, some of those items are stretches, but I think there’s still some validity to the thought that some women in LDS culture don’t fit the “one size fits all” culture the church sets up for them.
The whole seminary thing floats in the same vein: you can have women teachers (I did), but if they’re called, set-apart and supervised by male leaders, then it’s still a male structure you’re dealing with at the macro level. For example, if you have an issue with your seminary teacher (a female), to whom do you go to with your concern? It’s always going to be a male in the current structure we have set up.
For most people, it’s not an issue and that’s fine… but some people do have an issue with it and they shouldn’t be ignored simply because we want everything to fit into a neatly packed box or whatever [follow this link I posted above for more details].
Again, I don’t have a pony in this race, but I do find it interesting if the stories that research shares are true.
David, the other quotes came from Daniel K. Judd after the LA Times article was published and in one case is an explicit clarification of how he was quoted. There is no reason to remain confused as to what Judd meant to communicate.
Shenpa:
Ha, now there’s some anecdotal information that is entirely unpersuasive. Now I know what Blake is talking about.
Seriously, 10%? I hold by my figures, whether or not you want to go with the LDS term “Bloggernacle” or the greater “Blogosphere”, I really couldn’t care less.
Now I’m moving on.
Hawk:
I suppose the same could be said about the law of consecration, Zion and more than a few others then, right?
After all, if the only qualification for believing something is whether we live it or not, then the beliefs of this Church should be winnowed down to accompany that statement. There are a LOT of things this church teaches, but doesn’t necessarily “live”.
Now I’m really moving on…
Are you sure you’re really moving on? I can’t tell. Maybe you’d better let us know again. 😉
David, the large majority of people who are regular commenters on BCC, Wheat & Tares, Mormon Matters, Times & Seasons, FMH, Mormon Momma, Keepapitchinin’, etc. know me – if they have been commenting even sporadically over the course of the last four years, especially. I only recently started commenting here regularly, but I’m well known by just about everywhere else in the Mormon group blogging community. I was an active administrator and moderator on another group blog with most of the admins on this blog.
It helps if you know what you’re talking about, and, in this particular case, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
Let me make this crystal clear:
I’m sure I wasn’t clear enough in my previous response. I don’t like it when people take an isolated quote to try to prove a point, specifically because it’s possible to quote some Mormon apostle or even President at some point in our history to prove just about anything that someone wants to claim. I mean that: At least one apostle and/or President has said just about anything imaginable, sometimes not even within reason.
What I asked you is VERY different than quote-whoring, which is why your response amused me so much.
I asked for ONE quote from the last 30 years that bolsters your claim that Mormonism teaches that every marriage in the Celestial Kingdom will be polygamous (and also that the person represented at the veil for women is their husband and not the Lord) for a specific reason: I don’t believe it can be done. (More so with the temple example than the polygamy example, but I’d like to see one about either issue.)
I’m not asking you to prove those claims by supplying one quote; I’m asking you to give any shred of evidence whatsoever that even one apostle or President has taught it in the last 30 years. One quote doedn’t prove anything is Mormon doctrine, as quote-whores claim – but the total lack of quotes in a few decades pretty much proves that the Church isn’t teaching it anymore. If nobody has mentioned it in 30 years, given Mormon doctrinal history, it’s dead and not part of current Mormon doctrine.
If you can’t understand the difference between what you thought I said earlier and what I’m saying now, I’m sorry. I can’t make it any clearer.
If you can provide a quote to show that what you claim to be current Mormon doctrine has been taught by at least one apostle or President in a public forum like General Conference (where the majority of active members are likely to hear it), I stand corrected. In that case, somebody, at least, has taught it, so it’s reasonable for somebody else to believe it. If you can’t, my assertion stands. It hasn’t been taught in decades and no longer is active Mormon doctrine.
#88 – That applies to me, as well. I’ll rescind my moving on claim retroactively. *grin*
David – yes, I’m saying exactly that. If we don’t live it, I am saying we don’t believe it. We don’t have to believe it if we don’t have to live it, and if we are told to live it but we don’t, then I’m saying that’s because we don’t believe it.
A minor correction from your comment – the term consecration is now being used to refer to the current law of tithing, not living a united order. We do live the law of tithing, not the united order. That is a great example of us living what we do believe, not what we don’t, whatever was done in the past.
There are some who will claim that we believe those things but aren’t living them now for some reason, to which I say hogwash. You show what you believe by living it, not by saying you would live it under some other theoretical circumstance.
Jake, where did you get that temple photo at the beginning of the post?
The roles are very important. Men don’t give birth to children. Women don’t take the oath and covenant of the Priesthood. Equal but different. Try reading D and C 121, the rights of the Priesthood are only available to the righteous. If a man is righteous there is no need to resent him and neither husband or wife will hold any form of contempt conscious or no.
I quit reading comments about half way through because no one seemed to understand that Jake is 100% correct that the temple does teach that women are below men in a hierarchy. Yes, the church is absolutly structured that way. But nobody believes that that is actually what the temple ceremony means. Or, maybe I should say that 90% of Mormon’s do not believe that God means that. So, while Jakes premise is correct that the temple teaches stuff that leads directly to contempt, because most Mormon men do not believe what the temple says, if they even notice it, there is not a big problem of contempt of women in the church.
Now, I will say that some 10% of the church believes what is taught, that women follow their husbands as he follows God, and I saw a LOT of that 10% when I worked at a battered women’s shelter. The women as they were getting out of abusive relationships came to blame the temple ceremony for their husband’s attitude that they were below him and he was supposed to guide them and lead the family.
So, I do agree that there are teachings in Mormonism that teach men to have contempt for women, it is just that most Mormon men are good enough men that they do not believe those teachings. But the ones who do have a great deal of contempt for their wives, to the point that they use such teachings to abuse and control.