I have a minor hobby of following experimental economics. These are the economists who study how panhandling outside a bread store compares to panhandling near a sewer or the impact of preparing a sermon on the Good Samaritan on whether a clergy student will help someone in need.
A good example of experimental economics in action is at https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973653719/california-program-giving-500-no-strings-attached-stipends-pays-off-study-finds
As for editorial economics (conclusions with humor,etc) https://freakonomics.com/podcast/does-religion-make-you-happy-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/. Editorial economics is more fun, but not always as data driven.
Experimental economists have studied lots of things. So of course experimental economists have studied the economic impact of paying tithing.
It turns out that paying tithing is a wash. Statistically people who pay tithing break even. That is, they roughly do better by about the amount that tithing costs them.
The results are “interesting” for economists. In that there are results (that is all many economists care about).
Otherwise, the results are kind of strange. The results obviously make you wonder if you can get that 10% improvement from paying only 5% and lots of other questions.
All of which questions economists are willing to explore if you will provide funding. So far, no one has been interested in more granular research who was willing to pay for the research to be done.
Otherwise… this leads to questions for our readers:
- Shouldn’t tithing do more than break even?
- What does the fact tithing breaks even say about complaints that tithing oppresses the poor?
- Does tithing need to be paid to a church to have the economic effect or would any charity do?
- Does this research affect your reading of the Widow’s Mite story? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_the_widow%27s_mite
- Should tithing be about economics?
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For the transcript on the broader question:
https://freakonomics.com/2014/07/24/does-religion-make-you-happy-full-transcript/
Wheat & Tares 
Within the past year or so I have been rethinking my relationship with tithing and the LDS Church. I just got a chunk of money as hazard pay, which I paid my 10% on. Only after the fact did I wish that I had taken that 10% and given it to the charities of my choice as a first step in exploring my relationship with tithing in a different way. That being said, regardless of the economics, I don’t think tithing’s biggest impact is financial. For me, it is the giving off the top that makes me think about the well being of God’s other children who are less fortunate than me, which is why I’m starting to rethink my giving strategy.
TL, I’m in a similar situation. The recent announcement of a cosmetic remodel of the 126k foot Provo Temple was gutting to me. It seems inarguable that there are better, more Christlike uses for our tithing money.
Shouldn’t tithing do more than break even? No, unless you are preaching the prosperity gospel.
What does the fact tithing breaks even say about complaints that tithing oppresses the poor? Hard to say without reading the actual study. (I found nothing in the Freakonomics transcript that described such a study.) Most likely, the study found that tithing breaks even on average, so it could still make one group better off and another worse off. But you don’t know which is which (or if the winners and losers are randomly distributed) without access to the data.
Stephen: Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. Below is a letter I sent to my SP last evening:
December, 2021
Dear President:
Three weeks ago, I participated in (what I plan to be) my last annual Tithing Settlement; with my dear friends from my Ward. As I declared my “Full” payment status this year, I really wrestled with the paradox of my paying “the Church” just under ¾ of a million dollars (over the course of my adult life) against the reality of this same church now hoarding over a $150 Billion dollars in monies, investments and real estate. This is behavior that I can no longer (even tacitly) endorse.
Honestly, as someone I perceive to be basically good, I pity you in your assignment to defend these reprehensible practices.
Rest assured, that from this point forward, I will donate my hard-earned dollars to (truly) more Christlike endeavors.
Note: I think Christ would be deeply ashamed by the pursuit of wealth by “his Church”. Heaven knows, I am.
Leftandloafer. It is interesting how the extrapolations go from one hundred billion to the “current” amount. I see so many different numbers.
I wish we had more disclosures from the charitable giving side. The last numbers I saw reflected that they still had problems getting approval by local governments for a significant portion of the projects they were willing to find over an unwillingness to pay bribes.
I do think the reserves grew faster than the ability to spend sensibly had grown. But I don’t think of them ad hoarding.
Lastlemming. Excellent points. I thought the Freakonomics episode was useful for exploring the larger question.
TL—interesting points.
Jesse—the Provo Temple remodel has been one of the least controversial of the recent temple projects. The building had reached the end of its lifespan and has substantial use.
I’m sorry it affected you so.
And yes. I think Lastlemming makes an excellent point about how tithing should not be about the prosperity gospel. Even by implication.
If you are not at least taken aback by $100 Billion (or $150 Billion) you don’t understand the amount of money we are talking about.
Some people will say that tithing is not about money at all, it’s about obedience. You know, kind of like the Word of Wisdom isn’t about health. I understand this mentality because I used to believe in it. And to this day I respect those who “obey” the Church and its leaders based on their faith in them.
But in order for this to work for you, you have to really believe that our leaders are inspired and receive revelation. And I simply don’t believe that anymore. I see too many policy reversals (POX being the big one) and more importantly, changes in actual doctrine that follow the world 10, 20, 30 years later. Do the dates 1964 vs 1978 mean anything to anyone here? In sum, once you no longer believe in the inspiration and revelation claimed by Church leaders, the idea of obeying their arbitrary rules seems ludicrous.
But don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying the Church does no good or that none of their ideas are worth following. We should be taking care of our bodies. We should be donating some of our “increase” to charity. We should be serving others. But unlike the former stake president of mine who implored all the kids in the stake to engage in temple baptisms every Friday (and many did so because they wanted to obey), I want the kids in the stake to treat each other with love and compassion in a Christ-like fashion. That aint happening because there is no “obedience” component to it in the eyes of the kids.
Lily,
What I am taken back with is how small the amount is. After working on the budget for an average size University Hospital for the last 20 years you would have to add another zero to make me think the Church of Jesus Christ has saved near enough for the size it is.
Mark—you have hit a perspective issue that many just can’t engage. It is a very valid point.
I think there may be a correlation/causation fallacy in the idea of tithe-paying people “breaking even”. Anecdotal evidence (from my own experience and the experience of others I know) suggests that people who actively tithe, whether to a church or to other organizations, are the kinds of people who are very conscious of their regular cash flow and budget, and are generally less wasteful in the management of their personal finances. But the idea that there is some sort of direct ROI from paying a full tithe, whether financial or in the form of eternal blessings, is false and reeks of prosperity gospel.
And of course, there are plenty of wealthy people who become (and remain) wealthy precisely by hoarding their income and not sharing with the community, just as there are faithful Church members who tithe themselves into poverty.
The economic impact of tithing is largely irrelevant in the context of the LDS Church, because there it primarily exists as a membership enforcement tool. They want us to believe that paying tithing makes us happy, but really it’s because not paying tithing could potentially make us sad (like being excluded from a family wedding, for example).
Lefthandloafer, we’d not agree much if at all in a discussion of politics, but maximum respect to you for penning that letter. Most people (probably myself included) would have just stopped paying and said nothing.
Just citing figures (how the EPA whistleblower’s figures detailing the size of that particular fund went from north of $100 billion to around $50 billion in the most recent reporting has me baffled) fails to capture so many things about the church’s troubling financial behavior. The organization doesn’t act like a church; it acts like a corporation. Sure, perhaps one could rationalize the EPA fund alone as some kind of organizational financial planning, but that’s just one example. Why is the church developing high-end real estate in Florida, and why does it own the largest ranching operation in the same state? Why is it buying Marriott hotels in Hawaii? Returning to EPA, why is it so obviously unconcerned with the legal expenditure requirements shouldered by religious organizations operating investment funds like this? Why does it seem to be managing finances like Scientology, which is extraordinarily wealthy but has a tiny and shrinking membership ?
In my opinion, if the church wanted to be taken seriously as a religious entity, it would open the books and find a way to revisit the days of by common consent. Why anyone pays tithing as other than a display of obedience (the first law of tyranny, not heaven) has me flummoxed. As it stands, General Electric demonstrates more public accountability than the COJCOLDS.
Mark & Stephen, I am probably not qualified to engage in Mark’s discussion but I’d love to observe it. Some quick Google work leads me to surmise that churches of similar size operate with much less in reserve than the LDS church. From what I can tell, in 2017, the United Methodist church had around $400 million in reserve. In 2015, the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization had about $1.5 billion in assets. Part of my angst is my assumption that the church actually has way more than it needs to operate. If I’m wrong, let me know.
Jared’s Brother: thank you my, friend. I think I just need to stay away from Political Posts here in Wheat and Tares. I think part of my angst and frustration comes from wrongly assuming that this place would remain “unpolluted” 😁 from political stuff: naive, I know. Godspeed, my friend. Jesse: I too, appreciate your comments.
Years ago some kind soul gifted me with a copy of a slim book, “The Prayer of Jabez: Breaking through to the Blessed Life.” It was a huge publishing success, and it fits quite neatly into the broad spectrum of the Prosperity Gospel. The author snatches a brief snippet from the OT about an obscure figure named Jabez, who prayed thusly: “”Oh, that You would bless me indeed, and enlarge my territory, that Your hand would be with me, and that You would keep me from evil” ((I Chronicles 4:10). The basic premise, as I see it, is that if one sincerely asks God for stuff, the blessings are practically guaranteed. I’ve kept that little hardcover book for one reason, which coincidentally I used this very morning. It’s the perfect size to fit under a leg of our Christmas tree stand to make it level. Practicing tithing as obedience doesn’t seem that far from Jabez’s prayer. I am so grateful that my denomination, Community of Christ, a couple decades ago shifted its tithing focus to generosity and grace. And while that obviously doesn’t result in eye-popping bank accounts for the church, well maybe that’s not the point anyway.
As a lifelong member this is the progression of how tithing was explained/testified to me:
1. We give back to God a tenth of what he has given us, we get more blessings in return, so tithing is a net gain and the real test is obedience [so there is no financial purpose here, just dedication, selflessness, and obedience].
2. Tithing is “fire insurance” according to D&C 64:23, it is the gatekeeper to temple worthiness, it is practically necessary to fund church buildings and limited other activities [so here are the practical purposes from an individual’s perspective. but once your certainty in the truth claims/core doctrines fail, so too fails your desire to keep paying].
3. Tithing is the Lord’s law of financial prosperity, only those who are wicked or selfish refuse to participate in obedience to this law [here’s where the prosperity gospel gets introduced and all those slick leaders at the pulpit giving all credit to tithing for why they are so blessed, or waiting to be blessed].
As for the whole discussion of what tithing actually means (i.e. income vs. interest vs. increase; gross vs. net vs. surplus) it’s as discombobulated as our theology, and the Handbook says Bishops are not to definitely state, but just refer back to D&C 119 and encourage members to settle those issues with God. When you REALLY study that section and break it down, the limited purposes for tithing, how it was to be calculated for payment, etc. you become amazed how and why we got to the point we are at now as a church concerning tithing as a doctrine and as a gatekeeper for much of our church programs/salvation.
When I was a paying member, I paid on my net income from employment (not on cash or in-kind gifts). I never allowed myself to think twice about it and handed over that envelope without too much study, prayer, reflection, or frankly without too much cheer either. I didn’t do it just to get the recommend, I had stopped regularly attending the temple long before I stopped paying tithing.
The Ensign Peak Whistleblower incident, and the subsequent Presiding Bishopric interview released finally caused me to settle in and really study the doctrine, study the Church’s history regarding tithing and its use of funds, ponder, and come to conclusions I would have never been able to before. I do not think I will ever pay another cent unless and until there is full disclosure from the Church on its financial portfolio and holdings, as well as a budget that satisfies me. Otherwise, I consider all the interest they get to earn on my prior years’ donations as payment in perpetuity, and I will continue to give to individuals, charities, and causes that I feel moved to support.
Some thoughts…
I remember when I was growing up, my parents not only paid tithing but were also asked to contribute to the yearly ward budget. That practice went away at some point. (perhaps there were some sketchy leaders not using/accounting for that money “properly?”)
It’s hard to turn a blind eye to what the church does with tithing donations when it builds a shopping mall in downtown SLC. For sure the church has for profit businesses and non profit entities.
My charitable donations go to charities which disclose how that money is spent.
Finally, how many ward buildings—older than the Provo Temple— have had an expensive renovations? How old are the cathedrals in Europe? I understand some buildings overtime might need some maintenance work, but a prettier outside?
I’ve wondered why can’t local ward buildings be adapted for receiving temple ordinances? and local baptismal fonts used for ordinance work?
Great post and comments. My .02 cents:
Jesus spent a good deal of time in the synoptic gospels preaching the importance of taking care of the poor. I fail to see how what is essentially a flat tax that disproportionately affects the poor would gain his approval. Nor can I see how requiring the poorest among us to pay tithing before taking care of their own families has anything to do with God or Christ.
The fact that the church’s own representative (I can’t recall his name or cite the source right now) admitted that the reason the church did not want to publicize the vast amount of its holdings (remember folks, 100 billion is just one bundle of assets held by one company; there is obviously a lot more we don’t know about) because it was afraid the members would stop paying tithing illustrates several important things: 1) Leadership has a vested interest in being opaque as possible about finances and 2) the church does not trust its own members (and perhaps its own injunction) to pay tithing unless they are intentionally deceived by the church. That’s a deeply cynical position regarding something that we’ve always been taught should be done with a cheerful heart.
The fact that the blessings of the temple, the ones needed to be exalted, to be a forever family, etc., are only dispensed to those who can afford to pay is completely contrary, IMHO, to the teachings and attitude of Jesus Christ. It is, in my view, an indefensible practice (and yes, I know all about the tying of the paying of tithing to obedience, faith, etc.; that’s still not convincing) and one that should stop immediately. All the church is doing is reinforcing the worldly way of determining “worthiness”: economic viability. That is a major reason why I don’t pay tithing to the church and why I have become deeply suspicious of any of the rhetoric surrounding temple worthiness.
Brother Sky,
I would remind us all that tithing (sacrifice) gets us INTO the temple, but it is consecration which gets us into the presence of the Father. That model reflects much of what we are worrying about. Economically disadvantaged people are likely living consecration while struggling with sacrifice.
Wealthy Westerners like ourselves may find consecration far more difficult.
I wish tithing was solely for tax purposes. It is the pursuit of consecration that matters.
“Should tithing be about economics?”
No. Absolutely not. But the church makes it about economics with tithing settlement. I know of no other religious or non-profit organization that pressures its donors into a face-to-face meeting behind closed doors with an authority figure who asks them before a printed-out statement of donations if they’ve paid a “full” amount. That meeting is a pressure mechanism and the leaders know that. But with the $100 billion cat out of the bag, it is quite clear that the church no longer actually needs tithing to pay for its operative expenses. It is high time to do away with tithing settlement.
“What does the fact tithing breaks even say about complaints that tithing oppresses the poor?”
While I have no statistics to back up the argument that tithing places undo burden on the poor, the interwebs are replete with anecdotes of people feeling guilted into paying back tithing for admitting skipping months without payment. I’ve read many stories of people taking out thousands from their savings (making it so they can’t afford basic necessities) because they are worried about what they’re going to say at tithing settlement. I’ve read stories of people delaying buying groceries for lack of money because the teaching is that you should pay tithing first.
Brother Sky: you are referring to Roger Clarke, head of Ensign Peak Investments. He’s the one who told the WSJ that his view was the Church was withholding transparency about their investments because some members might take that transparency the wrong way and feel the Church doesn’t need their tithing. His comments were admittedly just his own opinion but as an insider I consider his perspective pretty illuminating. I also found it to be patronizing and insulting and that’s when I quit paying.
He’s 1/2 right: the huge $130b+ asset the Church has created via Ensign Peak has made me feel like the Church doesn’t need my tithing. The other 1/2: the fact that the Church isn’t transparent about it. It’s like the history…the coverup is worse than the crime (almost).
Brother Sky,
I would remind us all that tithing (sacrifice) gets us INTO the temple, but it is consecration which gets us into the presence of the Father.
I wish tithing settlement was solely for tax purposes. It is the pursuit of consecration that matters. And I have a ways to go, and many people struggling in poverty and paying tithing with great difficulty are most likely closer to the Father than I.
With that much money the church has such an opportunity to do so much good and live up to the name they want to be called. Think about the Church in a refugee camp in Syria building schools and feeding the starving. On the US Southern border offering aid and coming up with creative ways to help Refugees obtain economic success. This would be a Church that I would be proud to belong to. I would hustle my butt over to tithing settlement every year. The Church could be such a force for Good.
Maybe it is Time for the Q15 to get out of there office and help the Underserved.
On the face of it, I think tithing settlement does look like a way to guilt/pressure people into giving $ to the church. That being said, I’ve always had positive experiences with it. I do appreciate the quote that basically says tithing is one-tenth of your interest/income annually, no one is justified in making a statement other than this- and the idea that tithing is between you and the Lord. The bishops/branch presidents I’ve met with have always just left it at “are you a full tithe payer” without getting into any specifics.
Being affiliated with the military, there are a whole slew of benefits outside of my salary (income) that some could potentially consider “tithingable”. If I were to pay tithing on all the conceivable benefits, then I’d probably pay between 30-40% of my take-home pay to tithing. That’s why I’m glad it’s between me and the Lord. I don’t think He wants or needs me to do that, and I’m glad that at tithing settlement I’m not asked to justify or explain how I come up with the number I pay. It allows me to pay with a grateful heart (and I don’t expect any blessings in return). I benefit from the church and it’s facilities, so I’m happy to contribute, and I’m also a fan of the fast offerings/welfare program and the good it does.
Lois. Because of European tax codes, just about every cathedral has been under constant renovation and reconstruction for a very Long time.
That makes them an interesting comparison point to LDS Temples though we do have substantially different tax laws.
I’m with Counsellor. I’ve given the church so much tithing and they can now consider the compound interest on that tithing as my gift in perpetuity. But in terms of future donations, I’ve cut out the middleman. And paying to the causes my family chooses is awesome! Giving directly to charities is more fun than giving to the church.
I gave to a local organization a few years ago and was shocked when the called me to sincerely thank me for my donation. The Church never thanked me; often, they made my donation feel less than.
I stopped paying tithing in November 2015, before the whistleblower, but after the City Creek mall.
With President Nelson on record telling the African saints to pay tithing, not on what they currently earn, but on what they hope to one day earn, how can we say that the Church views tithing as anything but a game we play with God. No thanks.
My current view is that, if tithing mostly funds temples, chapels, and universities, it’s really more akin to country club dues anyway. If in the future I need to pay up to attend a wedding, I’ll cross that bridge no sooner than needed.
The middle class should pay tithing. The rich more than 10 percent. The poor very little, if any.
If you want your money to go to churches, temples, BYUs, lawyers, etc., then give to the Church. If you want to give to the poor and downtrodden, give your tithe to Oxfam, Doctors Without Borders, local charity, etc.
A few years ago there was a series of posts called “What’s the point?” I’d be interested in knowing what others think is the point of tithing settlement.
As far as the economics of tithing, I think the church leaders, membership, and manuals all tend to preach the prosperity gospel. It’s straight out of Malachi: pay your tithing and you will be blessed beyond room to receive it. It’s in our lesson manuals. It’s so ingrained that when we had a lesson on tithing a few years back a class member testified that *literally every time* a person pays tithing in spite of financial struggles they are blessed with sufficient financial blessings to compensate for the sacrifice.
I personally don’t believe that. But I think it would be incorrect to say that it isn’t taught that way at all levels of the church.
TL – I had something of a similar issue. I received the biggest bonus I ever did just a few years ago and I paid tithing on it. Then the whole Ensign Peak holdings came out and that was my breaking point. It wasn’t so much the amount (but that was certainly a part), but with leadership honesty. I heard an interview with President Hinkley and he was pressed on more financial disclosure and he said, “any member can get the information.” Knowing now that he was aware of Ensign Peak I can’t see that as anything but untrue. So even though it caused lots of issues in my marriage, I let the bishop know I was no longer tithing (at least my half) to the church, but instead would be giving the same amount (or more) to other organizations. It has been an interesting feeling the last few years moving from logging on to lds.org and hitting the donate button to looking for where my donations might be best. It does take more thought, but it also gives me more connection to some local charities. On the whole, it has been great.
Brother Sky, you are selling yourself short with a comment of “.02 cents”, which equals 2/100th of a penny. Your comment was at least worth 2 cents (.02 dollars)
Agree with lots of comments above.
I actually went to tithing settlement last year and said nope I wasn’t paying tithing (even though I know some people who say “yes” because they interpret their charitable donations as tithing – I kind of want the church to know that someone who paid a lot of tithing over her lifetime and was a full tithe payer every year stopped in 2020). I actually had a very positive experience with that. That said, I don’t plan to go again. My bishop handled it very well but I think the whole idea of tithing settlement is coercive (even though my particular experience was not) and it bugs me that it’s pretty much the only time all year that my leaders want to talk to me.
@happy hubby, I had a very similar experience with a financial windfall and a big tithing check right before the ensign peak news broke and I was pretty sore from it, especially since I was really on the fence about tithing anyway because I didn’t want to contribute to legal fights against LGBTQ equality. Haven’t paid to the Church since and instead pick charities with my kids to donate to.
@rockwell, isn’t the scripture in Malachi about “will a man rob God” actually about priests taking offerings and using them for their own purposes? To me those scriptures seem to directly indict the Church here. I’m not saying Church leaders are using tithing dollars to get rich, but I do think that they’ve essentially taken tithing on false pretenses from members and are robbing God.
I don’t think our leaders are evil or anything but I think they are incompetent at stewarding these funds. Of course they think they are doing a great job at building so much wealth which shows that we just aren’t worshipping the same God. We definitely aren’t reading the same New Testament based on how they were using the parable of the talents to justify their actions.
@elisa – I had not actually thought about it being a clear signal to up above about not paying. That wasn’t what was motivating me. But now that you mention it, I am kind of glad that if any one looks they will see half a century of being “full tithe payer” status and then suddenly 2 years of “not paying a penny” will hopefully be showing up in some summary data at HQ. Now if they would only come and ask why.
Tithing settlement is not solely to declare ones status as a full tithe payer but your opportunity to check that the church records of your donations are correct and declared whether or not they are. Mistakes happen. Donation envelopes have been known to sit in jacket pockets for months. I recall many years ago on being handed a statement by the clerk to be very surprised by the tithing donations attributed to me. My sister’s tithing had been put on my record. Another more recent occasion but still some time ago donations had indeed been left in a jacket pocket by the then Bishop. As an adult I have always been careful to check the churches statement of my donations matches my own. Of course now that we can see all this online the annual meeting doesn’t have quite the same intensity.
Bishop Bill: LOL. I teach English, not math!
Old Man: The doctrinal distinctions you mention may be relevant to some (they obviously are to you) and that’s fair enough, I suppose. The problem, however, isn’t really about just money and the difference between sacrifice and consecration: The problem is that to ask impoverished people to give the same percentage of their income to the church as the wealthy means endangering their lives. Being poor increases the number and intensity of risks one faces; it’s not just about sacrificing money, it’s about sacrificing/risking physical and emotional health, food security and employment security. All of these things are more precarious for impoverished people than they are for the middle/upper classes. So when the leaders of the church tell impoverished people to pay their tithing first, they’re essentially asking those people to put themselves at risk in ways that, say, a prosperous dentist who pays their tithing is not. That is what is unconscionable.
Church members have very few opportunities to express our dissatisfaction. One way that does exist is with our donations. By giving our tithing moneys to humanitarian charities in lieu of to the Church.
@hedgehog that’s true but the same goal could be accomplished by simply giving everyone a copy of their statement and then welcoming them to offer corrections if needed rather than hounding them to attend an in-person meeting with the bishop to declare their status.
Funny(not) story: my sister’s friend just had a missionary daughter return home. The church erroneously withdrew an extra month of the missionary fund or payment or whatever it’s called from their auto-pay after the missionary returned. The family was told in no uncertain terms that “the church does NOT issue refunds” and they could not get the money back. They were told they could just consider it a donation to the missionary fund. They were also told that it was NOT tithing and should not be counted as such. Good grief. (I think they are just going to go ahead and “count it” as tithing.)
I said that’s actually wire fraud but who’s asking …
I stopped paying traditional tithing years ago. I donate directly to other organizations. But more importantly in my middle age I view time as my most important resource and I’ve dedicated enough of my life to the church that I feel zero guilt saying I’m a full tithe payer. While my mission was a learning experience in hindsight I feel some resentment about those two lost years. I also experience some negative health effects as a result of neglected healthcare in a third world country.
Missionary, organist (dutifully practicing several hours a week), EQ president, bishopric member, bishop, high council. You get the picture. When I was a busy grad student I was called as a Stake missionary and was told that I was expected to serve about 10 hours a week, my wife started crying on the spot because she already didn’t see me. I can’t believe I accepted that calling.
Hedgehog
Can’t I just check my donations online now? Or are you one of those who still pay via check, keeping bishoprics after church when they could be home with their families? 🙂
Even my 79 year old mother pays online. I highly recommend it.
Elisa, Chadwick, didn’t you read my last sentence? The examples I mentioned are many years ago. Perhaps I should have been clearer that historically that necessity existed. But yes, I do pay by cheque because as a non tax payer the only online payment system offered me here is to set up a direct debit which gives control to the church to take the money from my account not for me to give it via card payment. And I don’t trust the church systems enough for that. With good reason it turns out. -see Eliza’s comment. My husband who is a tax payer has been paying online via the old system set up solely for contributions with gift aid… that is the church can claim back tax you paid to add to the tithing total. He keeps being nagged about moving to the new direct debit system, but has no wish to do so.
Elisa, that is terrible that that happened and it absolutely shouldn’t have. It’s an example of the kind of inflexibility in processes that shouldn’t exist.
On the topic of donation refunds I am pretty sure I read in the handbook that bishops and SPs are supposed to make clear to members that donations are non refundable. Not something I have ever heard said in practice. I wonder when it was added. But not refunding a voluntary donation is an entirely different kettle of fish to refusing to refund money taken in error. That is fraud, and I suggest making representations to the stake audit committee in the first instance, or to an area auditor. It’s reprehensible for the church to make so much fuss about what they do and don’t do with the widow’s mite they are given, but not to afford the same respect to the mite she’s meant to keep.
Although I pay a fair share of tithing, it is because one spouse believes, the other not so much. I also donate to various charities that are near and dear to my heart. I suspect almost everyone commenting on this board can say the same. I now have a special needs grandchild. What once used to be important to me for donations has changed. I now give to a new foundation related to her health and well-being. It is important to keep in mind that although our passions and preferences are critical, we are all so different and there are thousands of people and organizations that can use the help.
I am deeply disappointed in the church and the “billions of dollars” fund. It keeps growing, and growing, and growing. Can anyone give statistics on how much of our tithing money stays in the ward vs. ends up at headquarters? I would like to know exactly how much of my monies goes to help my local ward and neighbors. Same with fast offerings. How much does the ward keep?
Some of the above comments got me thinking, even though I have stopped direct tithing to the Church, I still had my bank account info as the preferred payment method on the donation page. Needless to say I have deleted that now to avoid being an unwilling donor who cannot get the money back. Thought some others may have also forgotten like me and may wish to remove that from their own accounts.
“ Can anyone give statistics on how much of our tithing money stays in the ward vs. ends up at headquarters?”
When my spouse was in the bishopric some 10 yrs ago all the money—tithing, fast offerings, etc went to Salt Lake. In Europe, where the church has to make public its finances, statements show all the money going to Salt Lake.
(That isn’t to say that none of the money was spent locally. Bishops did have the ability—a checkbook—to use some funds for local needs).
“What I am taken back with is how small the amount is. After working on the budget for an average size University Hospital for the last 20 years you would have to add another zero to make me think the Church of Jesus Christ has saved near enough for the size it is.”
I must be missing something. Your argument is that hospitals have a large budget so $100 billion isn’t enough for a church? Or maybe the argument is that a community hospital needs a lot of money, so a worldwide church must need a lot more?
How does that compare? Hospitals and churches don’t provide the same services and they don’t have the same types of expenses or income.
Doctors, nurses, residents, care technicians, patient advocates, janitors, cafeteria staff, etc. aren’t unpaid volunteers in a hospital. How much is the average size university hospital budget without any payroll expenditures?
How much does it cost to insure what goes on in a hospital compared to what goes on in an average church?
Hospitals purchase expensive equipment to perform expensive operations and they offer other other expensive services. Meanwhile at church members have to bring food to the ward Christmas potluck because the service of putting together one meal per year isn’t even a budgeted expense.
If the church has stashed away over $100 billion (and that’s not even the amount that they use to cover operational costs, that’s just a hoard on the side that they never spend down) then that means they’re already able to comfortably get by. If they didn’t have more than enough to get by they would never have been able to amass the $100 billion in the first place. If they’re already turning a massive profit, why would they need to “save” even more?
It occurs to me that the church is much like King David – sitting atop a literal mountain of wealth and yet not hesitating to take away from those who have so very little. King David never really suffered any serious consequences from helping himself to Bathsheba so maybe his greed is something to emulate.
I pay tithing because the Lord asks me to. I do not think about any blessings either temporally or spiritually when I do so. I do not try to tell anyone else why they should pay tithing. It is not my place to do so. I do not pay tithing in order to get a temple recommend. I believe in what the temple represents and I believe in the law of tithing. I feel that if I were to pay tithing soley because I would be denied a temple recommend, I would not have a testimony of either.
I remember when the decision was made to stop assessing people dues for ward or branch membership and eliminate the requirement that wards and branches raise a certain percentage of the funds for new meeting houses, etc. Everything was to for out of tithing.
When I was young, and even into my early adult years, if I wanted to go to a temple, I had to go to Utah. People in foreign countries had an even more arduous task. Now, temples are being built in many parts of the world, making it so much easier for members in those countries to perform saving ordinances for ancestors. Members is countries around the world have modern meeting houses, regardless of their poverty.
The church has many humanitarian projects and efforts around the world. They are not advertised, they are just done. I do not know how much money the church spends on humanitarian aid. It does not matter to me. I pay my fast offering because I want to. I want to help others and feel that is one way to do so.
My membership and activities in the church are testimony based. I am not telling anyone else how to think or act.
Someone above had asked how much stays in the ward. I sure it varies. But, when I was clerk, we send about $500k to SLC and got about $15k back.
@Elisa regarding overpayment to a missionary account. A few years ago, *I* inadvertently overpaid about $100 vs your sister’s friend: *the church* withdrew an extra payment (which currently is $500).
The financial clerk, a kind young man, awkwardly informed me about the no refund policy.
I didn’t say what I really thought: “How dishonest!” Because I knew he had no power to make it right, I replied, I’d apply it to tithing. He smiled and didn’t disagree with me.
The financial clerk was the bearer of bad news, of an unreasonable policy. Perhaps he smiled and was relieved because I appeared to not be upset.
At the time, his career was in finance, it would have been unethical for him not to correct an account at his firm and issue a refund. Yet on Sunday, after church, that’s exactly what he had to do.
During tithing settlement (now called tithing declaration in my ward), as pointed out by @Hedgehog, there is an opportunity to correct the statement; but when it comes to missionary accounts, the church can’t be bothered to be held accountable.
Gross. Outrageous. Greedy.
If they make the mistake on a missionary account, the church refuses to correct it. If the member makes the mistake, they refuse to correct it.
Can anyone explain why the Church can get away with financial abuse of members?
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/legal/estore-return-policy?lang=eng
That is the general refund policy. I’m
Still looking for what happens in case of an unauthorized withdrawal but there are laws that apply.
Eg https://www.floridabar.org/the-florida-bar-journal/bank-customers-beware-recovery-of-unauthorized-electronic-funds-transfers-isnt-so-easy/
See also https://www.moneycrashers.com/how-to-respond-to-unauthorized-transactions-in-your-bank-account/
@stephen I don’t know what would have happened if this friend would have pushed harder. I think she was fine to just count it towards tithing and not worry about it. If she’d already maxed out on tithing or it was a real financial hardship maybe she’d have tried to escalate (although I do know she talked to several people about it, including I think at the stake level at least). I didn’t think that was a good look for the Church.
Regarding the no refund policy, that is unbelievably gross. The thing is, as a CPA, I cannot fathom this policy would withstand ANY regulatory review. But the thing is, in order to combat it, you gotta be willing to put in a lot of time and some money into fighting the system. It sounds like the church is banking on the fact that members will either (a) not bother or (b) believe the church can do no wrong and therefore be ESTATIC with the opportunity to donate even more money to the church.
This continuing notion that the church and its leaders escape accountability (does not apologize, does not correct clerical money errors) makes my blood boil. Since my dog left the fight a few years ago, I suppose I just shrug my shoulders and move on.
The Church should refund the missionary payment, and quickly. That’s easy. Mistakes happen.
I don’t understand why anyone would spend more than 30 seconds, if that, to check Church records about one’s tithing donations. If the records are off, even with category errors in either direction, what possible difference does it make to the individual member? The Church’s records won’t insulate or protect you from an IRS audit. The tithe payer knows what money left her account and ended up in the Church’s account from her own banking records. . Who cares what a report produced by the Church’s accounting system says? God knows how much a person tithed, to the penny, and the intent with which the person paid. He doesn’t need a Mormon computer generated report in order to “credit” the tithe payers and neither do tithe payers.
If you’re the type who wants to ensure the Mormon tithing report is accurate, knock yourself out. Do the work and reconcile the records, if
you have the time and patience. But realize in the end you will get absolutely nothing out of that transaction: no more blessings for an increased contribution amount or fewer blessings for a reduced contribution amount that show up on a report that nobody looks at and serves no useful purpose for the tithe payer. If you bother to check the records and if there are errors, that is a 100% church problem. Why transfer their mistaken record keeping to your list of things to do? Just pay your tithing and move on. Imo, there is no need for a tithing settlement, except with God. And, there’s no need to compound the tedium and pointlessness of tithing settlement by reviewing and “correcting” utterly meaningless Church financial records of YOUR contributions. The Church could not care less if the records are off; they already have your money. You should not care either, imo.
A question for this group, in the event anyone here really knows. How does the Church officially feel or what does it believe about paying “tithing” to a person/group other than in the “tithing” box on the Church’s donation slip? I see a lot of people (here and elsewhere, including myself) who seem to believe that donations to other causes can be counted as “tithing”, and I also see people (here and elsewhere) who seem to believe that they cannot be called “tithing.” I’ve seen a statement by Pres. G. A. Smith that said as much, and I’ve also seen a more recent reference (unverified) to a similar statement by Elder Renlund, but, following the pattern of “Approaching Mormon Doctrine,” a couple of random statements does not make something “true” or “the official position of the Church.” D&C 119 talks only about paying to the bishop, but the financial status of the Church was so much different back then (and even in Pres. G. A. Smith’s time) that I can’t help but wonder if that is a strong enough statement from scripture to make it eternally TRUE. I couldn’t find anything more concrete in the handbook (other than the handbook just seems to assume that tithing always goes to the Church), which seems to lead to a lot of personal interpretation and leadership roulette.
So, does anybody have something more definitive on the question?
Elisa,
A similar situation arose when I was Financial Clerk. The donating person was a single mother. We feared we would get the same response your friend did. So we didn’t ask SLC. The Bishop simply counted the donation as the rest of her tithing for the year and let it go. Call it “Don’t ask, don’t tell!”
MrShorty,
Many Bishops glance at the records and ask the heads of family if it is a full tithe. We have so many families on various financial plans, they (the Bishops) have no idea what is going on. The spouses answer in the affirmative, it is usually a go. I have seen people pay two years, with one year in advance (for tax purposes) and the next year declare themselves full tithe payers with minimal donations. There is also the gross vs. the net debate, and Bishops were told to tell people to follow their consciences. The bottom line is the Bishops rarely ask why. So yes, I have witnessed considerable variability.
I wish those who served in callings could count hours towards their tithe. It is scriptural because tithing is part of the law of sacrifice and contributing “time and talents” certainly counts towards the HIGHER law of consecration as explained in the temple. I wonder if callings would be more sought after and fulfilled with more passion if the contribution and sacrifice was noted on the records of the church? And what of all of those expenses by teachers and others in fulfilling their callings? Some turn in receipts, but many don’t. Why not allow those to be counted as tithing?
MrShorty
My understanding is that Jana Riess, after writing this post, clarified that her Bishop declared her a full tithe-payer: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020/12/24/jana-riess-why-i-stopped/
But that probably says more about leadership roulette than the church’s official position. As this trend gains traction, I’m sure at some point it will be addressed, and my gut tells me it will be addressed unfavorably to those (like me) choosing this new way.
Here is my Recommendation for the Ensign Peak fund:
Let’s assume for arguments sake that the fund sits at roughly $130B after the last two years of stock market growth.
I would put two years of operational costs, roughly $16B in it’s own fund.
I would then divide the remaining balance into three endowments of approximately $38B each.
These funds would be designated as:
1-Education
2-Health Care
3-Infrastructure (water, sewer, power)
Like any endowment, the principle would remain in the fund and each year the interest earned would be spent in the developing world on the three items delineated above. That would equate to about $2.5B to $3B per year on each of the identified areas of focus.
In addition the interest from the operational fund would be transferred proportionally to the the three areas of focus which would provide an additional $300M each.
Think what good the church could do with $8 to $9B per year used in the developing world to ease suffering and provide opportunities.
Alas, no one is asking me for my opinion.
@MrShorty,
I know some people who “tithe” to other charitable organizations and simply declare themselves full tithe payers without going into further detail or explaining that detail to their bishop.
I know others who have explained that to their bishop, and he has said “it’s not my business, I only put a yes or no, so if you say that’s between you and God and that’s what I’ll put.”
I know others whose bishops have said “sorry that’s not tithing.”
Roulette, in other words. If you want to keep a temple recommend option 1 (keep it to yourself) is almost certainly the safest. If you want to be transparent and make a statement and are OK with potentially losing a recommend, then you could go the Jana Reiss route. She must have super chill leaders because I have to imagine that some of what she’s published would get her into trouble with other leaders.
@Sean that’s what’s so crazy. Yes, the church does good. But no way is it donating $9B a year and we just aren’t hearing about or seeing any of that and it could easily do that without even touching the principal. It could literally eradicate malaria among other things.
Changing our logo and getting rid of the term “Mormon” won’t make us seem more Christian. Acting Christian will.
I know this discussion has wound down, but I wanted to thank those who responded to my query. From the responses here, I see that my impressions are mostly correct — it’s mostly a matter of “don’t ask — don’t tell” and/or leadership roulette. There doesn’t seem to be an official declaration of sorts to settle the question.
Something struck me in the “don’t ask — don’t tell” responses. In some spaces talking to and about those who leave the Church, “authenticity” is a topic that comes up. Some who leave talk about how their “inability” to give voice to their concerns and disagreements at Church was part of what eventually led them to leave. In addition to this issue with tithing, I thought of other issues where I practice “don’t ask don’t tell”. In a week or so we will meet in SS to discuss the Family Proclamation. As an egalitarian, am I going to sit on my hands and stay silent while gender roles get discussed? I probably will, and that silence will also likely lead to me feeling a little more disconnected from my Church community. In a month or so, as we start the Old Testament, am I going to come out publicly as an evolutionist in, what I perceive, is a room full of creationists? I know just how ugly the evolutionism vs. creationism debate can be in the Church, so I will probably sit on my hands, and I will feel just a little bit more disconnected from the community.
I recently listened to a podcast with Dr. Jennifer Finlaysen-Fife where she mentioned this. For those unfamiliar with her work. JFF (as many of her followers call her) is an LDS marriage and sex therapist. In many of her relationship discussions, she talks about the importance of growing and developing intimacy, which, in her vernacular, is truly knowing your spouse (good and bad, areas of agreement and disagreement) and allowing yourself to be known by your spouse (good and bad, agreeing and disagreeing, etc.). In this particular podcast, she applied the same thing to Church, where she suggested that maybe our Church communities could become more intimate if we stopped “sitting on our hands” or practicing “don’t ask — don’t tell” and let our beliefs (even when they will invalidate the perceived orthodox belief or when the orthodox belief will invalidate our unorthodox belief) truly be known.
I don’t know, still need to think about it, but I guess it has got me wondering if don’t ask — don’t tell is really a good idea. I understand why we think it is a good idea (because I do it, too), but I wonder if it’s worth rethinking….