I’ve seen that, in various incarnations, for a while. So I thought I would discuss my experience with people expressly trained to minister.
My first discussions of chaplains had to do with some we went to church with. The kind that, since he was an officer, had the enlisted personnel he interacted with stand at attention and answer “yes sir” or “no sir” while he counseled with them. He had graduate level professional training on how to counsel with and minister to people.
I really did not deal much more with people who had training for the ministry until I was in the hospital with my oldest child, Jessica. I was assigned a chaplain with experience as a pastor who had a PhD as a part of preparing to be a pastor. Mostly I held space for him and listened as he vented about how unprepared his PhD had left him, something he was hoping to remedy with chaplaincy training.
I saw him last when he was assigned to prepare me for a meeting with the doctors for them to tell us that our daughter Jessica was not expected to make it. His preparation “you’ve dealt with everything really well. I think I could learn a lot from watching how you cope with getting bad news. Would you mind letting me observe and learn from you as you are told your daughter is expected to die?” Guess that is the way that everyone would want to have that news broken to them – and I really think he didn’t realize that he had broken the news to me with the way he asked the question.
Later, when Robin was in the hospital I wandered down to the hospital chapel. The chaplain in charge (and the person in charge of the hospital’s chaplaincy training program) let me know that I was really in the way as they were preparing the space for something and that there were much more important things for her to do than talk to me or even be inconvenienced by my sitting there quietly.
I still don’t know what religious observances are around July 9th, but I got out of her way.
So, forgive me if my experience of people who have been trained for the ministry does not necessarily give me confidence in their superiority. Or if assertions of same do not bring out my unabashed support instead of memories, like the ones above.
On the other hand, I have known chaplains who I thought the world of. My father was a volunteer prison chaplain for several years after being asked by the local church leadership. He was even asked to pastor a church as a result of those who saw him in action. I’ve known others, who I would like to emulate.
I just don’t think that “being trained for the ministry” is always what it is cracked up to be.
I agree. Chaplains, therapists, mentors, receivers of confessions, ministers should be chosen by the person in need rather than assigned. That can be hard to do in some situations of course.
As a professional educator of health-care chaplains, and a chaplain myself, I am saddened by your experiences and appalled by the chaplains you encountered. Early in our 1600 hour training, I emphasize multiple times that a chaplain’s role is “to listen and let feel.” Neither happened to you. Your first encounter with the PhD proves that you truly cannot teach compassion. You can only build on the compassion that is already there. Your encounter with the trainer was also awful. The chapel is not for chaplains, it is for the patient. We have often moved to another location so a family could use the space for their needs.
I also agree with your overall thesis. Training does not make a person empathetic, no matter how much you receive. There are naturally gifted individuals who truly are the presence of the Divine in the room and they have no training at all. The rest, much like myself, receive training so we can learn how to shut up and get out of the way so the Divine can work around us.
I agree with you.
Let me be honest. I’ve learned to really appreciate some chaplains and the value of a good one.
Thank you for your comments.
Is it possible that this is a bias from your small sample? In 3 interactions, only one of them was positive. Maybe it’s a larger sample, but you don’t really specify. But to belabor the point, generalizing from small, anecdotal samples is unlikely to produce an unbiased estimate of ministerial quality. In a reasonably large sample, I’d expect the average positive interaction of people who have interacted with trained ministers to be higher the average positive interaction of people who have interacted with untrained ministers. And I’d second lehcarjt’s point.
But I also don’t want to justify either of those bad experiences you had. Neither should have happened and I can’t imagine how difficult it would make things to have someone who you expect to be helpful during difficult times turn out to, in fact, be harmful.
I served in the U.S. Navy and had some very good experiences with Chaplains. I have also had some very poor experiences with Bishops in the Church who have no training at all. I know when I was in the Bishopric, I felt along with the other two inadequate and not prepared.In addition, we served in a full time position on our off time because we had to make a living to support our families. The apostles on the other hand ARE pid ministry so as members we should be careful about criticizing other faiths with paid ministry. I am all for it. Fewer malls and more paid ministry would be a good thing.
“In a reasonably large sample, I’d expect the average positive interaction of people who have interacted with trained ministers to be higher the average positive interaction of people who have interacted with untrained ministers.” I wouldn’t. I suspect that that ministers with years of training are better at those things that require training, but I don’t think most strictly spiritual needs are met by things learned at a seminary. Clergy with a degree in theology are no better psychologists, marriage counselors or social workers than people who do those things professionally. What religious leaders ought to do is recognize when someone needs these professional services and connect their congregants with them while they continue to receive spiritual guidance and counseling. Latter-day Saint bishops have a lot of room for improvement in that regard (I can’t speak for the state of other religious communities).
In my 30 years in the Air Force, first as active duty, and now as civil service, my experience with chaplains has been mixed. I have yet to meet the chaplain assigned to my current organization in the seven years I’ve been here. And I’ve had chaplains who made it a point to at least say hi at least once a month. I am grateful that I had one of the good ones when my wife died. He knew me well enough that I was comfortable talking with him, and when he attended her funeral I knew it was because of our relationship, and not just because it was his job.
This reminds me of one of my favorite bishops. He delegated most of his public-facing tasks (conducting meetings, giving testimonies, organizing ward activities) to his counselors. He was sometimes criticized for doing things this way; he was being unfairly compared to his predecessor, who was an outspoken pushy alpha-male with a take-charge personality. But this bishop was a soft-spoken introvert who had a natural gift for putting people at ease and guiding them through crisis situations in private settings. He did his best work behind a closed door, without much public recognition. I will be forever grateful for the compassion and empathy he showed me and my family during a difficult period in my life.
My point is, different ministers (whether lay or professional) have different strengths–any of which can make them a valuable asset to the people they serve, albeit in different ways. It’s unrealistic to demand that a minister be a dynamic orator AND a brilliant counselor AND a child development expert AND a master theologian AND a skilled manager of people/budgets/resources. My former bishop in the example had strengths to bring to his calling which others perceived as weaknesses.
CS Eric — that is well said.
I guess my thought is that training is not a panacea, but, it is also a good thing.
So I favor training, but …
I guess it is kind of like correlation. Everyone complains either that there is too much or not enough.
Jack Hughes, that was well said.
I would add that it is important to not only realize that no one can be everything, but for us to realize that in ourselves as well.
One of the things that I feel has been missed in this discussion is the act that trained ministers are a very small percentage of the population to which they are supposed to minister. It can lead to overload and desensitization. But, as the poster “Chaplain” observed, one cannot teach compassion. The principles can be taught but the attribute must come from within. I have met a few people in my life that truly knew how to minister. I have met many, many people that were truly concerned and while knowing really what to say or do when adversity or tragedy strikes but are able to communicate that they sincerely care. And I have come to really appreciate both of those types of people. As ministers ourselves, we can cultivate those attitudes and become better the more we seek out and work with those who need help. If we all pitch in, a bishop or the like will not have to shoulder the majority of the load themselves and we will all benefit from the experiences.
Glenn
Let’s face it. There are times when only a really GOOD friend or a trained therapist are going to do.
In the end, only we can work our way through life’s challenges and blows. And every time we do we get stronger and we gain more trust in ourselves. But when that’s not enough I want to decide for myself who I trust to understand and to care and to offer me counsel that will bridge the gap between my abilities and my challenge.
Anyone who finds that in their Bishop is a fortunate person. But anyone who goes to the person who can meet their needs regardless of or because of their training is also fortunate.
I remember when Jessica first got sick, and how quickly her usually mild illness progressed. That time period still has a nearly tangible intensity to it in my memories. I can only imagine experiencing any of that; receiving the news that way hurts. Then and now.
I’ve never experienced a trained ministry. I’ve gained competency from training and experience in areas where I was wholly inadequate. Right after I finished nursing school I signed up to speak at a career day for my kid’s second grade – then I backed out because I didn’t know what to say. I felt something like a pretender.
We can all learn. Good training, simulations, role play (my least favorite), directed readings, all would likely have improved those interactions.
Have you seen Jacinda Ardern the prime minister of New Zealand handling the tragedy there, with love and inclusion. She would have made a great Bishop, but she left the church. The kind of people we drive out with our homophobia and sexism.