With the excommunication of Bill Reel pending, there is discussion in the Progmo world that there is a void in the Mormon podcast world in the faithful but nuanced (Middle Way) category.
I’m passionate about popularizing and modeling the paradigm I have of the LDS Church, whatever you call it, knowing as soon as I label it everyone will argue whether the label is appropriate: Metaphorical Paradigm, Nuanced Mormonism, Middle Way Mormonism, Neo Apologist, whatever.
I’ve been thinking of joining in the podcast craze for quite some time. I think there is a huge need that’s lacking in that faithful but nuanced territory. There are many great ones. Dan Wotherspoon at Mormon Matters. Blair Hodges Maxwell Institute Podcast. Jack Naneek, Mormon Awakenings, our own Rick Bennett’s Gospel Tangents, Jared Anderson’s Mormon Sunday School, Laura Hales LDS Perspectives, among others. All of these are great but none provide quite what I needed when I was deep in faith crisis, which is a faithful LDS voice who is very direct and very specific about faith crisis issues and modeling the Middle Way in a clear and direct way.
Here’s my tentative plan which may be more work than I’m willing to commit to, but here’s the idea:
- start in January
- podcast roughly every week
- three categories of podcast episodes
- one episode per month deep dive on the historical issues: BOM historicity, First Vision, Polygamy, etc
- one episode per month with focus on LDS Truth and Beauty with positive focus, this might be done together with my wife
- “Why I Stay” interviews with folks who have been through faith crisis and faith reconstruction and are enjoying their journey and positive engagement with LDS Church. Sort of opposite of the exit story type interview we see on Mormon Stories
- commitment to stay independent: not let donations or desire for wider audience influence me
- plan to go one to two years and then bow out or slow down considerably–this would likely be too consuming to do long term
- style would be fairly extreme in terms of unorthodoxy but much more loyal to the Church and church leaders than is traditionally in this space
- I would be “coming out” at some point during the first year and attach my real name and get current with my bishop and stake president and the podcast would be sort of a live experiment on how that goes
The goal would be supporting those in faith crisis and reconstruction mode and modeling that this can be a permanent landing spot not a temporary phase on your way out of the church. And that it can be done without taking too much heat from orthodox members or getting in trouble with church leaders.
Questions/request for feedback:
Is there a demand for this?
What’s a good name?
I have loved the concept of StayLDS for many years. John Dehlin started that brand and owns the website. Last year, I had some talks over email with John where we had agreed loosely on an arrangement for me to manage that website and build the brand up. I’ve tried contacting John again for that, but I haven’t heard back.
Any other good names?
I’ve tried knocking out an initial episode, and this stuff is way harder than I thought it would be. I’m way better writing than speaking. Tips on how to produce a quality podcast, efficiently?
Is there anyone else that’s really passionate about this same concept that wants to collaborate?
Wheat & Tares 
As anyone who has read LDS blogs since they began knows, there used to be many blogs that would be considered middle way. In fact, back in those early days it seems like blogs were the outlet of choice for those in the middle way who had moved beyond their TBM days. The truly faithful didn’t need them, the truly unfaithful didn’t want them, but the middle wayers blogged in order to preserve their sanity and find other like minded members. Over the 15-20 years since then most of those participants have moved beyond middle way and into inactivity, voluntary resignation and new churches. Middle way seems to be untenable in the long run, sooner or later you decide you’re in or you’re out. And going back to the fully participating TBM you once were is almost impossible, which leaves eventually departing as the most common result.
I’d suggest you consider a guest interview with either Bill, Gina, Dan, or John on their podcasts about your own journey. That might give you and opportunity to get a feel for what is involved, what equipment works well, how they schedule and edit things, etc.
Most Middle Way sources and groups, in my view, seem to primarily serve as initial landing points for people at the beginning of their faith deconstructions, or for people still navigating a mixed-faith marriage. As a result, you’ll probably want to name it something friendly to orthodox believers and avoid the “Mormon” or “Mormonism” label that is now considered to contribute to “major victories for Satan.”
Another option to explore could be to find out whether Gina at some point decides to transition to a podcast that focuses on theology if she perhaps decides to let go of the A Thoughtful Faith podcast. I don’t know if that is even on her radar. However, if you were able to step in to that podcast title, it could potentially be easier than starting from scratch.
Another option to explore could be to add a channel to Bill’s lineup, similar to Mormon Awakenings.
It could be helpful to be affiliated with either the Open Stories or Mormon Discussions groups because individuals who subscribe to those podcast groups might want what you have to offer–in a similar way that you have enjoyed Mormon Awakenings.
If your primary purpose is to support Middle Way members, individuals at the early stages of faith deconstruction, and/or persons in mixed-faith marriages/relationships, the question is how to interact with the largest number and to make the largest impact.
Jon Odgen might be someone to visit with too. He is doing some great work with his Move Upward meet ups in Provo at Third Space Studios, every 3rd Sunday of the month.
Please also differ from almost every Mormon-themed podcast by investing in an audio interface and a half-decent microphone. I’m convinced John Dehlin either has dial-up internet or is torrenting while he’s recording his episodes.
“knowing as soon as I label it everyone will argue whether the label is appropriate”
But if you don’t, everyone will argue what it ought to be!
I opt out of discussions and presentations that convey “I’ve got it figured out” or “the answer is stay” (or go). If and only if you can maintain a position that respects individual choice—in, out, middle — all as legitimate respectable paths, then it might be worth doing. In my opinion. Since you asked.
Frankly, being “passionate about popularizing and modeling the paradigm I have” does not bode well. It sounds like another preacher. I have concerns about “StayLDS” as a label, for the same reasons.
Christian. I like your comment. For myself personally at age 48 and 12+ years into Mormon faith crisis and reconstruction and thousands of hours of research into my own as well as other religions and not coming up with very much certainty but enjoying the journey…I share your tastes in what kind of podcast I enjoy. You’re describing a Stage 5 kind of thing, learning as we grow together. That is very different than what I plan. I think that’s covered better than I could by guys like Dan Wotherspoon and Jack Naneek in the Mormon world. This podcast would appeal to me 12 years ago not so much me today, other than that I would be keenly interested to see how it is received. I plan more of a nuts and bolts, “how to manual” in how to reconstruct faith within the Mormon paradigm, how to go through a faith deconstruction and still enjoy what you love about Mormonism and stay in the church, if that’s what you want to do. And also sort of an experiment to show it’s possible to remain in good standing with this belief set. It probably will be a little preachy. I’ll try to do it in a way that’s not completely nauseating. 🙂
Looking forward to the podcast
Churchistrue, we should get together for lunch and talk shop. I know my first few episodes were a little rough, soundwise, and I wish I had known about auphonic. It auto-levels and does 2 hours per month for free! Wow, that’s been a game changer for me. Still, there can be unforeseen tech hurdles that make life difficult. Maybe we can cross-promote each other’s shows! Let me know. Maybe I can be part of your reveal party!
From some of the excommunications it seems to me the church’s position is “Have a nuanced view – fine. Podcast your nuanced view then expect to defend it in front of your high council.”
Dont call it “middle way.” Your POV is extreme left edge of the believing Mormon thought spectrum nowhere near the middle.
Sustainable Mormonism, “New Mormonism”, etc.
Even though “Mormon” is banned language I think its importantant it be in your title.
This sounds promising. I am a go-to-church-every-Sunday Mormon with interest in a more pro-LDS podcast, but usually end up returning to Mormon Stories because of its volume of content and consistency. My thoughts on your proposed episode topics:
one episode per month deep dive on the historical issues: BOM historicity, First Vision, Polygamy, etc
– This would be appealing. Ideally, you would host subject matter experts with a deep understanding of these issues.
one episode per month with focus on LDS Truth and Beauty with positive focus, this might be done together with my wife
– This is where you might lose me. As a general rule, the more esoteric the topic, the shorter my attention span. Not saying you couldn’t make it work.
“Why I Stay” interviews with folks who have been through faith crisis and faith reconstruction and are enjoying their journey and positive engagement with LDS Church. Sort of opposite of the exit story type interview we see on Mormon Stories
– As a longtime Mormon Stories listener, I like this idea. Your biggest hurdle might be identifying individuals that fit this profile. I assume John Dehlin has an easier time finding interviewees because many have publicly (and vocally) split with the church. I assume that most who stay do not publicize their decision.
Good luck.
Thanks everyone for comments. Dave C and KLC: I disagree that’s how it has to be. But that will be part of the fun of this for others and part of the fear for me, I guess. I’m confident but not totally sure. Greggg: I agree I’m on the extreme side of belief unorthodoxy when it comes to the Middle Way. I will try to be careful to distinguish where I land on my beliefs with others in the Middle Way area and acknowledge my unorthodoxy.
I’d be interested, and I like much of the content on your blog, but I dislike the basic premise of your titled blog “churchistrue”. I wish you’d ditch that altogether. Most middle way people I know let go of exclusivity claims pretty early on in their faith journies. That phrase really just doesn’t work for many of us, and while I think it would be good to talk to a variety of people with differences of opinion on truth claims, the emphasis on this subject is somewhat off putting to me.
Gotta love that opening graf:
“Hey, guys, my church just created a job opening with their latest burning at the stake. When God closes one door, He opens another, amirite?”
Progmo world. SMH.
Two words: Mission statement. Do you have an agenda? For those at either end of the spectrum, there is a simple answer: Orthodox Mormons want to keep people in (or bring in new people) by defending the Church; activist Exmos or proselyting Christians in other denoms want to bring people out. If you’re in the Middle Way, what exactly does a Middle Way type want to do?
There are a lot of workable answers to that question but no real compelling ones. Some just enjoy the conversation, perhaps without realizing the consequences of serious conversation about LDS history and doctrine. [The Church obviously recognizes those consequences, which is why it avoids serious discussion of LDS history and doctrine in all manuals and talks.] Some are struggling to keep the rest of their Mormon life hanging together because they can’t play Brother Orthodox anymore and don’t want to mess up their nice day-to-day life by exiting — and somehow dialogue with other Middle Way types helps stabilize their balancing act in the Middle Way. Some are scholars or pseudo-scholars who successfully compartmentalize: talking about LDS issues is their profession or avocation, and they sort of make a conscious decision to not integrate the messiness of that discussion with the relative tidiness of their suburban middle-class American life.
This isn’t such a problem for group blogs. A blog is just a platform and with many contributors there are many voices and points of view. But podcasts are generally hosted and run by one person, so the question of just what that person is doing, or trying to do, or thinks they are trying to do, is more pressing. You know the Yogi Berra quote: If you don’t know where you’re going, you’ll end up someplace else.
I like the idea you propose. I appreciate faithful ways to look at history and problems such as how Bro. Bushman did in rough stone rolling, or like your website even. Things like FAIR are sometimes so biased that its difficult for non-historians to really evaluate it, etc. A few things that would be of interest to me:
1)Is it possible to solicit interviews from those who have/are been/going though a faith crisis without having to have them disclose their identity? I have a personal journey that I have shared with some people struggling and it has greatly helped them. I’ve been at this for over 10 yrs now, and have gained some insights that have helped me. I teach Sunday School, and parttime seminary, and will sometimes bring up nuonced views and things about BofM historicity, evolution, flood myths, etc. I am a scientist by occupation and often have interesting conversations.
2) perhaps the most impactful thing to witness and be a part of is when discussing with someone going through a faith crisis and you let them know that you are aware of the same problematic history/issues (e.g. pologamy, Adam-God, LDS as cooporation, BofM historicity, BoAbraham, masons/temple,etc.), and they see that you know many details about these areas than they, but yet retain activity in the church/faith in JS, etc. And then they ask how you reconcile and so on, and you can see their paradigm shift in front of you, and their hope and faith increase…has nothing to do with knowing more, but being able to discuss things that their bishop couldn’t address or were shamed for being filled with doubt, etc. Anyways, many here are much more knowledgeable with more experience than I in this, and it would be really neat to see a seasoned person interview someone who just found out that JS used a peep stone, or one of these other points, and their faith is hurt they are looking for answers but the more they read the more anti-literature is found further exacerbating their concerns. But if the paradigm shift/ Faith restructuring could happen live, it would be really neat… maybe…. could be impossible to capture those feelings we have felt when we finally start making sense of things from reading or talking to someone.
Anyways just some thoughts to consider. Thanks.
Love the idea. My initial thought is to stay away from diving into the truth claims. This was the initial focus of John Dehlin’s podcast and also what Bill Reel did for a long time. I have loved your discussions of truth claims on your blog and other posts. I think that, unfortunately, this is seen as hugely threatening by the institutional Church and you may be seen as leading people astray. The Terryl Givens and Adam Miller’s of the world operate with the Church’s blessing because they very subtly hint and dance around the issues. You are able to come out and say them directly (and do it wonderfully), but I don’t know if the Church is ready for that yet (I wish they were and would hope they are). Jack Naneek is able to point out some flaws that the Church, leaders and members embody and perpetuate, but is able to speak above that and tie in scriptural stories and other traditions for an insightful and nuanced positive message.
On the other hand, your response the CES letter, discussion of truth claims, etc. is what makes you great. I hope you can translate this into a podcast and reveal your identity, but just now sure the Church is ready for it.
Worthy objective but soon you will learn there is no “middle way”. To maintain any semblance of credibility, you will have to exhibit honesty and some intelligence. You cannot delve into history, doctrine or policy and have a satisfactory outcome. I would actually like to hear a “why I stay” story. But there again if you didn’t ask hardball questions, you would not be taken seriously.
@James Sneak
I agree completely. I listen to RFM and Mormon Stories. Both are extremely well done. Obviously MS is kind of a talk show format, and RFM is a dissection of the issues, both are great.
The challenge Church is True, is that to be honest, open minded, compelling and authentic, you will have to be critical of the Church and the brethren. You certainly dont need to adopt the Bill Reel, “suicide by police officer” style of hostile personal confrontations with the Brethren.
The older I get, the more convinced I am that honest, “eyes wide-open” discussion of controversial topics within the Church, can’t be done in a church approved way.
The Maxwell Institute podcast is middle way.
I am intrigued with the idea of “faith reconstruction.” By that I assume you mean revising the “official story,” (or at least the prominent narrative) that the non-faith crisis folks adhere to, to a story that is more palatable and allows a person to feel as though they still cling to the iron rod?
Yes, please do a Middle Way podcast.
I want to second what Christian said. For people in any sort of faith transition it is very unclear whether those places that are not “outcome neutral” are very effective. The whole issue with faith deconstruction and rebuilding is that the end point of journey isn’t certain which is what makes it so psychologically difficult. If you decide apriori that you are staying (or leaving) then the transition is much easier if still difficult. One of Mormonisms big cultural problems is that there is not positive exit narrative that is acceptable to the orthodox. It is either fear or ill-disguised pity or “don’t let the door hit you on the way out”. I think this is slowly changing, but the clear agenda to keep people in the church will certainly turn off many faith de/recontruction listerners.
I actually think the space where people are advocating for staying is pretty well served as is. Maxwell Institute, A Thoughtful Faith, Mormon Matters and the others you mentioned all fill this niche. That said try it and see. Maybe you will have a particular tone and take that some people find helpful. You might also consider seeing if you can get involved with any of these other podcasts. Content is a constant challenge and good people willing to really to do the work are often welcomed.
I think you should call it Middle Way Podcast or Middle Way Mormonism
I hope you go forward with this, I would love to follow the project.