Many Mormons who are LGBT or have family or friends who are were surprised/not surprised at the announcement of Josh & Lolly Weed that their Mixed Orientation Marriage was ending. Some had considered them evidence that gay people could have happy heterosexual marriages, so hey, everything is OK for gay people. They can be *happy without any accommodation in the current understanding of the Plan or the ideal family we preach. When they announced their divorce, both of them wrote a fairly long OP explaining their choice and experience that can be found here.
Josh Weed listed the teachings on homosexuality that he’s received from the church since he was a kid, knowing he was gay.
1. My sexual orientation wasn’t real.
2. My sexual orientation was evil.
3. My sexual orientation was an abomination.
4. My sexual orientation was tantamount to bestiality and just shy of murder.
5. My sexual orientation was a crime against nature.
6. My sexual orientation was just a feeling.
7. My sexual orientation was very small–merely a temptation and a tendency.
8. My sexual orientation was something so huge and dangerous that it led to Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction and could lead to the downfall of civilization.
9. My sexual orientation could change in this life if I had enough faith.
10. My sexual orientation was a “trial” to bear.
11. My sexual orientation maybe couldn’t change in this life after all.
12. My sexual orientation could be managed with faith (but not changed).
13. My sexual orientation could be endured (as a trial).
14. My sexual orientation was my own fault (for, as stated in The Miracle of Forgiveness written by the Mormon prophet, Spencer W. Kimball: “Many have been misinformed that they are powerless in the matter, not responsible for the tendency, and that ‘God made them that way.’ This is as untrue as any of the diabolical lies Satan has concocted. It is blasphemy. Man is born in the image of God. Does the pervert think God to be ‘that way?’”—which was the quote that finally made me, as a 14-year-old reading those words alone in my room, throw the book across the room in horror. It was the word “pervert” that really shook me—I knew I hadn’t brought gayness upon myself and that I was not a pervert, even at that age)
15. My sexual orientation was NOT okay to have and needed to be rooted out (The Miracle of Forgiveness even recommends a type of counseling that will help, claiming many had changed).
16. My homosexual feelings WERE okay to have because they can never change, but were never okay to act on.
17. It was not okay to be referred to as “gay” but instead only as “same sex attracted”.
18. Homosexual feelings should never lead to a person identifying himself/herself with the word “gay” as a noun.
19. It IS okay to be referred to as “gay” but only in certain circumstances.
He added his thoughts about the mixed messages he received and that gay people in the church continue to hear:
I could keep going, but hopefully you see the point. These mixed, uninformed messages all came out during the course of my lifetime. Sometimes, they said the exact opposite of what was said before. And yet, I was instructed, continually, to listen to the men saying these things and obey what they were saying, and that if I didn’t, I was faithless and apostate.
That is a problem. While I can absolutely accept that the men who said this wide array of often damaging things were of God, I think it’s clear from this list that the people that lead the LDS church 1. often share opinions about subjects like this, and not necessarily the will of God and 2. often change those opinions over time and 3. are sometimes totally inaccurate in their assessment of social issues. And I mean no disrespect as I point out this obvious reality.
I can remember a lot of these different messages myself from my decades in the church. The mixed messages have a lot of causes, but the chief two are:
- A rapidly evolving acceptance of homosexuality in American society.
- Leader to leader differences in perspective and understanding.
All of which is of course distressing to gay youth born into LDS families. Society is suddenly mostly accepting of their orientation, and church culture is not. We are encouraged to love our gay brothers and sisters while denying them a tenable place in the plan.
As I thought about it, there are a lot of mixed messages in the church, and that’s because the church is a human institution, full of human beings, each of whom has different views. Topics I can think of off the top of my head include the role of women, the role of the Holy Ghost, the Word of Wisdom, science, biblical scholarship, etc. Obviously some of these changing views and human errors are more harmful than others.
To me, it looks like most people in the church do what you would expect when confronted with mixed messages: they cherry pick the ones they agree with and ignore the ones they find challenging. That too is human nature.
- What other mixed messages have you heard in your years in the church?
- What do you do when you are faced with mixed messages?
- What would you recommend to someone for whom the mixed messages are particularly harmful?
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
Some interesting things to think about.
1- if a mixed message is harmful to someone I would encourage them to find a professional that can assist them in a self care strategy. I will be the first to admit that I and my expertise is NOT up to assisting people who are feeling harmed. But I certainly would want them to feel safe and valued around me even if I lack on the answers of what to do.
2- My favorite Terryl Givens book is people of paradox. It points out yet more mixed messages. Agency vs Obedience. Certainty vs. eternal progression and others. I would also include spirit birth vs eternal existence as another. I’ll stop there. Don’t want to take all the good ones. 😉
3- what I try to do is sit with the puzzle and value the pieces I may be least comfortable with. As you stated Mormonism encompasses not just ideas but living breathing people over a span of time. Between time and the variety of individuals mixed messages are bound to happen. (Heck, read the Old Testament! The Lord has been speaking in mixed messages for as long as scripture can recount.) but I think aside from harmful messages, on a variety of other things mixed messages are (as they say) a feature not a bug. We can cherry pick, or we can use the tension both to push us to humility and to improvement!
The Church needs to be able to answer this simple question that every gay youth is asking. What do you want me to do? What do you expect of me? Some possible answers. 1. Turn yourself heterosexual 2. Stay gay but marry heterosexual anyway 3. Stay celibate your whole life 4. Leave the church. 5. We don’t know, because some of our assumptions we figured out were wrong, but it’s high priority for us to seek revelation to be able to answer you.
Since I joined the church as an adult, I recognized the mixed messages very early one. Sure, A testimony of God the Father, Jesus, His Atonement, The restoration of the Gospel through Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon, living Prophets, continuing revelation and Temple Ordainces are all constants, almost everything else was mixed depending on who said it, local and general.
I listened to a lot of old conference. Talks from the 70’s & 80’s. There was clearly hostility toward Gays and pretty total indifference toward Black’s until the ban was lifted. Much of that generation is now gone. But a lot of the hostility remains for those who were young at the time
The leadership seems to be trying to to change that, but there are still fundamental issues that need to be addressed head on and resolved.
I have little to say about the mixed orientation marriages as I am more concerned about the children than the principals. They made a choice, the children didn’t.
Mixed messages add to the challenges church members must face. On the topic of SSA, following are a few thoughts.
Now that we understand more about the gay condition, the questions needs to be asked: how did gay members deal with their SSA in the past (all the way back to the church being organized)?
The scriptures urge humankind to deny ourselves of all ungodliness. This command is for all, and covers every possible human condition. The promise is that if we will love God more than the ungodliness that dwells in the flesh , His grace is sufficient and many will be arrive at perfection at some point because of the atonement. The mixed message addressed in this post only adds to the problem, but with faith and love of God He promises success.
Back to my question, how did former day saints deal with SSA? I would assume that out of all the apostles and GA there may have been a few who were homosexual. If so, maybe they kept it to themselves as best they could and with faith successfully lived their lives.
I’ve been expecting a book(s) to be published by church member(s), maybe even a high ranking church leader, that goes into detail about their struggle and success with SSA.
The Weed’s receive a lot of attention because of their recent announcement to terminate their marriage. What about others like the Weed’s, pioneer like, who are successfully, at least so far, working through the challenges of family life where one is gay. We should hope they can be successful and laud their show of faith. There are probably others, who we don’t hear much about, who are not marrying, but finding ways to be faithful followers of Christ.
I anticipate that in future decades, the furor over the churches position on gays, at least within the church, will be quieted by the emergence of faithful gay members living church standards successfully.
Yet another issue, policy, belief, doctrine, teaching, etc. upon which prophets and church leaders (past and present) have varied widely in their inspired pronouncements. My conclusion: try as they might, none are inspired, else God is very fickle indeed.
Mixed messages
Seek learning out of best books. Any knowledge obtained will go with you and serve you well. VS Open Mindedness is of the devil
Sex is bad, sex is of the devil, sexual feelings need to be bridled, all leaders seem to be asexual (other than that MTC President) VS ultimate reward in Celestial Kingdom is unlimited sex.
Medical Marijuana evil VS OxyContin, Vicodin, Morphine ok if prescribed by doctor
God loves everyone VS God has chosen people
Boob jobs are bad VS everyone gets boob jobs
Tight clothing is immoral VS have you been to Utah lately?
Birth Control is of the devil VS nobody cares anymore
Exaltation is an individual thing VS you need the Schlub you married to get you there or you can get reassigned once you’re there
We don’t believe in Polygamy VS we really do
We don’t believe God used to be a man VS I was told we did
The whole purpose of life is agency VS If you pray to God he will make every decision for you
Young women need to get an education VS duty to multiply and replenish and not delay
Please don’t down vote me. I know it’s you Jared. 😀
“They made a choice, the children didn’t.”
Yes, they made a choice to enter a mixed-orientation marriage since their bishop told them this was best for all involved. And then they made a choice to marry someone they love and are attracted to instead.
At least, that’s the case for a lot of the families affected.
A mixed message “near and dear” to my heart:
Eve, who made the wise choice ushering us into mortality & Mother in Heaven, who is at least sketched out
vs
The taught place and purpose of LDS women in the church today & especially in the temple, where, ironically, that same Eve pledges to hearken to Adam, not God
“Boob jobs are bad VS everyone gets boob jobs”
I’ve never heard this one before.
Can’t wait for the discussion of MTC President, Joseph L. Bishop and how Jared will justify his predatory behavior.;
Alice, I keep checking to see if places like W&T and BCC are going to cover that. No luck so far, and I’m still not sure why.
Oh! Mormon Therapist just covered it today: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2018/03/mormon-leaks-and-systemic-issues-with-lds-sexual-perpetrators-in-leadership.html
Alice– I read the account and based on what I read I feel heart-sick for the sisters who were molested, abused, and had their lives scared.
I have no idea why you would think I would justify this kind of behavior.
Meant to write scarred, not scared.
Jared, I leaped to the conclusion that you’d find a way to justify the church’s appalling tendency to favor hushing up such stories in favor with getting to the root of the evils done, then I apologize.
“Equal partners” and “preside/hearken” are the mixed messages that affect me the most directly. And yet, as much as I loathe and struggle with that contradiction, I know it’s a drop in the bucket compared with the struggle of the LGBT Mormon.
Jewelfox — we’ve been working on something for two days so far. With any luck it will be soon. Unfortunately, we aren’t as fast as some.
Mixed messages all over the place with Joseph Bishop. I will only list one.
Church implying they contacted police to investigate assault in official statement.
“They listened carefully to the claims being made and then this was immediately reported to the Pleasant Grove Police Department, and the police interviewed her at that time,” the church statement said “The church does not know what she said in that interview, but the church received no further communication from the police concerning the matter.”
The reality that the police were NOT contacted to investigate the assault.
“The woman contacted the church leaders. She made threats she could possibly hurt someone,” Robertson said. “We went out to her home to visit her and make sure she was OK. We never investigated the alleged abuse.”
So many mixed messages here that my head is spinning. My heart is broken. This kind of mixed messaging is devastating and literally ruins people’s lives! I’ve had ENOUGH.
Given that there is a measurable outcome for LGBT youth coming from rejecting homes (8x suicide rate, 3x homelessness, 3x drug use and most other high-risk factors), my unapologetic recommendation is for LGBT people to leave the Church. With answers all over the board including many harmful and damaging messages, any given Church leader cannot be trusted and the stakes are too high. A huge part of the problem is that the Church leader (especially general authorities and above) are viewed to be answering for God So, it isn’t just their opinion, it is God’s fixed doctrinal view that never changes. If you could take their opinion as just that, there would be much less of a problem. But with a patriarchal order where every straight heterosexual male between you and God allegedly speaks for God, this is a recipe for disaster and has been for decades.
There were no mixed messages about being LGBTQ when I was growing up, only hate and shame from the church. 😢
Charles Harrell’s book This is My Doctrine goes doctrine by doctrine outlining how teachings evolve over time. Greg Prince’s evaluation rings true, “There isn’t a doctrine that hasn’t changed since 1830.”
Well written Thomas Montgomery. 😊
It is really traumatic to realize that the God you were raised to love hates who you and is going to send you to hell. And then the you love reject you too, it’s no wonder the outcomes are what they are! I avoided God most of my life and had to find a new God, one that loves and cares for all of his children. After all, He made me this way, I didn’t choose this for myself.
What other mixed messages have you heard in your years in the church?
So many, I don’t want to take the time to list.
What do you do when you are faced with mixed messages?
Investigate the facts and come to the conclusion that the leaders of the church are not what they claim to be.
What would you recommend to someone for whom the mixed messages are particularly harmful?
Get out. You don’t need that poison in your life. There is life after Mormonism, and there are truths available for discovery that are not subject to the whims and biases of fifteen old men in Salt Lake City. You have the right AND the responsibility to take back responsibility for your moral choices and your search for truth. Letting self-proclaimed prophets spoonfeed those things to you is a copout, not righteousness.
Mixed messages on just one topic *birth control*
Circa 1850-1870, Brigham Young…
… “It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can.”
This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth.”
President Joseph F. Smith said in June, 1917:
“I regret, I think it is a crying evil, that there should exist a sentiment or a feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children… I believe that where people undertake to curtail or prevent the birth of their children that they are going to reap disappointment by and by. I have no hesitancy in saying that I believe that is one of the greatest crimes of the world today, this evil practice.”
In 1956, Joseph Fielding Smith….
“BIRTH CONTROL IS WICKEDNESS. The abuse of this holy covenant has been the primary cause for the downfall of nations. When the sacred vows of marriage are broken and the real purpose of marriage abused, as we find it so prevalent in the world today, then destruction is inevitable.”
In 1969 the First Presidency wrote:
“We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. … We have been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth … However, we feel that men must be considerate of their wives who bear the greater responsibility not only of bearing children, but of caring for them through childhood. To this end the mother’s health and strength should be conserved and the husband’s consideration for his wife is his first duty, and self-control a dominant factor in all their relationships.”
It is our further feeling that married couples should seek inspiration and wisdom from the Lord that they may exercise discretion in solving their *marital problems*, and that they may be permitted to rear their children in accordance with the teachings of the gospel.
1992, Encyclopedia of Mormonism:
“Interpretation of these general instructions is left to the agency of Church members. …
One of the cornerstones of the gospel is agency or choice. Latter-day Saints believe that everyone will be held responsible for the choices they make. …
Church members are taught to study the question of family planning, including such important aspects as the physical and mental health of the mother and father and their *capacity to provide the basic necessities of life*. … birth control may be appropriate. Abstinence, of course, is a form of contraception. Like any other method, however, it has its side effects, some of which may be harmful to the marriage relationship.
Prophets past and present have never stipulated that bearing children was the sole function of the marriage relationship. [But, clearly the overarching and dominant function.]…
Decisions regarding the number and spacing of children are to be made by husband and wife together, in righteousness, and through empathetic communication, and with prayer for the Lord’s inspiration. Latter-day Saints believe that persons are accountable not only for what they do but for why they do it. Thus, regarding family size and attendant questions, members should desire to multiply and replenish the earth as the Lord has commanded. In that process, God intends that his children use the agency that he has given them in charting a wise course for themselves and their families.”
Church Handbook of Instructions: 2010
“It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.
Married couples should also understand that sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a way of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.”
*****
Which attitude/teaching/message was from God? Why did the message *evolve* [though at a pace about 30 years behind the wider culture]?