Where does respect end and worship begin? Where do we go from looking unified to looking like a cult? You decide!
[poll id=”438″]
Discuss.
Agency, Blind Obedience, Church Policy, Culture, Faith, LDS, Mormon, Mormon Belief, Mormon Culture, Politics, Priesthood, Prophet, weekend poll
All Rise! Standing for Apostles (Weekend Poll)
It has been a long-standing (a pun?) but unwritten practice that members of the church stand when a member of the First Presidency enters the room. This has been just that — a practice. Not a policy and not doctrine. I’m okay with it as an individual practice, but not as something that becomes enforced. There should not be an “All Rise” commandment.
I also don’t think the practice should extend to the Quorum of the Twelve. If it does, it goes beyond unwritten practice and becomes a rule, a policy or doctrine. Where does the slippery slope stop? Do we make the children stand when the ward Primary President comes in to the room?
The whole “problem” could be avoided by having the presiding official in the hall well before the meeting begins, to meet the people as they arrive.
With ji on this. I believe ward & stake leaders are expected to be seated in advance of a meeting. Not sure why the expectation is any different for GAs.
The European women’s meeting had members stand as Elder Ballard arrived, but since Elders Bednar & Halstrom were slightly late arriving, the opening welcome to the meeting was already underway as they came in, the congregation then remained seated so far as I could tell.
I don’t think it is just our church practice though. During the school cathedral services I’ve attended for my kids, the congregation stand for the incoming and outgoing procession (and also, as an aside, all the hymns). I’m pretty sure we stand for the Monarch in Britain, though maybe more so in the past than now. And I imagine it happens during formal meetings, such as those opening and closing parliament perhaps, for which there are lots of old traditional practices (and dress) when those in attendance would stand. At some point in the past men would stand whenever a woman came into the room. So, who know where the practice originates. I think it is probably meant as a sign of respect, but probably feels somewhat out of place or more like worship in today’s world where those practices are no longer par for the course in other settings.
I was taught to always stand when a lady enters a room or when arriving or departing from a table. I still do. When and if a woman apostle enters a room I will certainly arise.
ji,
Do you really it began as a grass roots practice?
Howard,
No, I don’t believe it began as a grass roots practice. I haven’t suggested such. Rather, I tend to believe that in the Utah days, when the church was the society, members of the Twelve stood when a member of the First Presidency entered their council room, and it expanded from there to general conference — in the old days, general conference was only for a select few, and it made sense there.
In non-general conference sessions, like when an apostle visits a stake conference, I prefer to think of him like Paul or Peter of old, coming to visit the saints, so I tend to prefer for the presiding official in the hall well before the meeting begins, to meet the people as they arrive. The alternative, where the presiding official stays off-stage until the formal processional, well, it makes him seem like a visiting general or corporate executive coming for an appearance. I love and sustain the brethren — I just wish sometimes for a little less formality.
Elder Anderson recently attended our stake conference. As he entered the chapel for the session so many were tripping over themselves to stand while others were wondering what was going on. It seemed chaotic and unreverent. Standing out of courtesy is much more appropriate in a smaller setting. I would have been embarrassed to explain the reaction to visitors not of our faith. It looks too much like worship or adoration, rather than respect in such a setting.
In Australia many years ago president Hinckley came to visit. We were instructed to stand when he entered the room and to “spontaneously” start singing we thank the o God for a prophet. It is not in our culture to do things like that but the area presidency (Americans) insisted. It was so staged it was embarrassing. Many stood but a lot of people remained seated.
1977 I spent part of the summer in Mérida, México. The local stake presidency had just made their first visit to LDS General Conference where they had witnessed the Tabernacle’s attendees all stand for the entrance of President a Kimball et al. It won’t surprise many if you that shortly after their return they insisted on the local membership standing at any mtg that they entered. Isn’t this the logical progression??
#8
Did they actually tell you you had to do it spontaneously? That’s fairly hysterical (in a more or less overbearing way).
Alice. Yes it was “coordinated spontaneity”. We were to watch the music chorister for our cue. It was pretty funny because only the front people were paying attention. It took a little while for the song to gain momentum and for the people to stand. About 2/3 of the congregation stood. Some did not stand on principle. We are a bit of an anti authoritarian lot down here!!
Seems to me people stand when a judge walks in the room. I don’t think it matters how big the audience is. Does the press corp stand when the POT-US enters the room. I don’t know maybe because the cameras are not on the press corp. If I was in a room and the POT-US walks in I would expect everyone to stand (although I would puke if I was in the same room as the current POT-US). This is not a cult thing.
If it seems people are tripping over themselves it’s because they aren’t paying attention to their surrounding. Can’t help that. Probably the same people that are still talking at the beginning of an invocation. Oh well.
I think non-members would not need an explanation as much as indifferent LDS members get embarrassed.
At lds funerals, the congregation is told to stand when the family of the deceased enters the chapel as a sign of respect. I always felt weird at the funeral of my brother and sister when they stood for me.
At the temple, the brothers used to stand in the veil waiting room when women entered. The women asked the men to stop standing because they said it made then uncomfortable.
This whole standing thing as a sign of respect is just weird.
hmm I’ve stood for the prophet but never for the 12 . . . .
I’m a lemming. When everyone stands, I stand. When they sit, I sit.
As I understand, when Pres. Hinckley learned about the practice of “spontaneously” arising and breaking forth in song at his appearance, he asked that the practice stop.
In the Australia example, the direction for the all-rise-and-sing probably came from one person in Australia, maybe a stake president’s wife — and she having made the suggestion, and no one else having the backbone to suggest otherwise, it was so. At least that’s how I imagine it happening — an eager and over-zealous and well-placed member, not a nefarious organization.
Personally, I like standing when it’s time to leave some of those long meetings. I actually don’t mind standing for the Prophet.
I was at the the MTC when Elder Perry was there and we stood, but ten years Elder Eyring was here and we didn’t stand. I can see standing for First Presidency but others I dunno. Funnily enough we had a Politician , who’s job requires people to stand, and I have stood when he walked in the room. Yet, I was also at 7-11 and he walked in with a guard person and yeah, no one stood!
The reason it feels a bit too close to leader-worship to me is that we expressly DO NOT stand for any portion of our Sacrament worship except the intermediate hymn, if we are lucky. Standing is a sign of respect–in fact, in most other churches I have visited, the congregation stands for a significant portion of the service out of respect for God. There’s quite a range in the portion of the service spent standing, but in every other church I’ve attended, from Unitarian to Evangelical to Greek Orthodox, it is a regular part of worship. We also can’t keep our mouths shut in our chapels. We gab and gab (often doing important ministering work, it should be noted) until the last possible second.
For me, that makes it really jarring when we suddenly clam up and stand up for a man, even if he is the prophet, when we don’t do it for God.
I attended GC for the first time in 2011, and when everyone stood when the Apostles came in, and then the First Presidency, it just didn’t feel right. It did feel like worshipping them as I heard oohing and ahhing around me. I love these men, but standing seemed like we were following a worldly tradition of rising for the elite. I’m glad when Jesus comes, we will bend our knees and bow before Him. Our sign of respect for the offices the Brethren hold is our attendance to hear them speak. No need for pomp in that circumstance, IMHO.
As others have noted, this is a simple evolution of the “stand as a sign of respect.” We stand for judges. We stand for the President, we stand for the national anthem. Until recent decades, gentlemen stood whenever a lady entered the room. This level of formality–along with most manners and etiquette–is disappearing, and I suspect that standing for the prophets will eventually disappear to, as our culture becomes less formal.
I was taught to stand whenever I shook anyone’s hand.
If a Mormon apostle were to walk into a room during some sort of LDS function and I was there, I would stand, because it is customary and respectful. Outside of that context, no, because I reject their claim to spiritual authority (except, of course, in situations where it is polite to stand for anyone, such as when being personally greeted).
My memories may be fading, but I don’t remember this standing happening until the last decade or so. I attended lots of firesides and devotionals in the BYU Marriott Center, and I remember standing for Ezra Taft Benson, the church president, but not for his counselors or any of the apostles, and my sense was that it was deference to an 80-year-old man almost as much as respect for a prophet. I attended a few General Conference sessions in the tabernacle around that time too, and I don’t remember standing for anyone. I have some faint memory that when Spencer Kimball was weak and not attending most sessions, those in the tabernacle would stand when he did come. I attended stake conferences with Henry Eyring presiding around 1999 and 2004, and I don’t remember any standing. Before the Saturday sessions, Eyring was milling around the chapel talking with people. At a stake conference with Dallin Oaks around 2007, there was standing. (Those were three different stakes.)
I agree that having GA’s meet us in the hallway would be nice. I don’t like the pomp and circumstance of having them parade or enter the chapel or room. I also don’t like the frequent “biography” introductions wherein the GA’s professional, scholarly and worldly accolades are read. Seems like it takes us further away from the plowboy Prophet and the fact that even humble simple people just might be worth listening to as well.
If we continue with the ‘all rise’ I vote we imitate our British friends and instead of saying ‘all rise’, say ‘be upstanding’. (Formal court instructions.)
“In Australia many years ago president Hinckley came to visit. We were instructed to stand when he entered the room and to “spontaneously” start singing we thank the o God for a prophet. It is not in our culture to do things like that but the area presidency (Americans) insisted. It was so staged it was embarrassing. Many stood but a lot of people remained seated.”
I met President Hinckley only once but the vide I received was not humility. I think this kind of nonsense ‘floated his boat.’.