I was listening to the radio yesterday and the topic of American Exceptionalism came up.
For those who may not be familiar with the term, it was first used by writer French writer and historian Alexis De Tocqueville in his book “Democracy in America” (1836). In it he states “The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no other democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one.”
The idea that America is a unique place rises from the notion that the country was founded as a new nation with its own ideology based on freedom, self-determination and the overall concept that the government was in place to serve the people and not the other way around.
Starting with the American Revolution, the founding fathers were determined to do things very different than had been done before in creating this country.
For the most part, it has worked. This country has attracted people from all over the world who have been some of the hardest workers, greatest inventors, creative minds and who together have built a country which has been the envy of the world for many years. We are the world’s only superpower at the moment, the world’s policeman and the largest financial engine on the planet.
However, in some cases, the idea of American Exceptionalism is used to denote that we are a superior country to others, and some cling to the notion that any criticism of our country is grounds to leave it. (“Love it or Leave it”). Which is a silly idea and totally antithetical to our entire notion of freedom of expression.
Recently,some have brought up the idea that the United States is now a country in decline. We’ve seen the loss of basic manufacturing capability, the outsourcing of low wage, low skills jobs to other countries and the rise of the global marketplace. Our one-time domination of innovation is being challenged by former “third-world” countries that have made major investments in technology, education and infrastructure.
Much of this has been driven by the American appetite for consumption and acquiring of goods and possessions. The standard model of supply and demand and marketplace competition has driven prices lower and the need to lower manufacturing cost; Thus the shipment of manufacturing capability to low wage countries. We are, in effect, killing the goose that laid the golden egg. As our manufacturing jobs disappear and workers are thrown out of work, they cannot afford to buy the very goods they formerly produced. Thus we have entered a cycle where the economy is depressed or at least stunted because, after all, we are driven by consumer spending. Without investment in new areas, we have nowhere to go but down.
The irony of this modern economic situation is that for years, the US has attempted to export our concepts of democracy and way of life to other countries, particularly those who were repressive to their people. Well, guess what, they listen, at least in part and now they are beating us at our own game, which has been enthusiastically encouraged by multinational corporations and our government.
The other irony for me is the message out of Washington is that the government must live within its means and not use deficit spending as a tool to provide a myriad of services to the people and also to business. It is not uncommon to hear politicians say that the US government must live within its means and make spending decisions just like American Families do every day.
Well, I‘ve got news for them.
The American people are mortgaged to the hilt. We have more personal debt than any nation on earth. The credit card has driven this economy for years and that, my friend, is deficit spending. The nation debt is about $14 Trillion, but the consumer debt is around $2.43 Trillion. So, the American people and their government have something very much in common. They like to spend money they do not have. And, the economy depends on it.
Anyway, back to the original point. This is a great country. We have freedoms like no other place on earth. The country is beautiful and the people wonderful. But, we are not without our problems. As I have traveled the world, there are many places I could easily live that are just as nice and have most of the freedoms we enjoy. But, this is my home. I love my country.
So, what do you think?
Is America still an exceptional place or, are we, like many countries in the past, past our prime?
Are our problems so insurmountable that we cannot recover?
Is our political system broken beyond repair?
How do the people get their country back?
Wheat & Tares 
Evidence that the U.S. is still exceptional: immigrants vs emigrants. We have far more immigrants than emigrants, from all over the globe. The U.S. is still the home of the American dream. We have our problems (debt, education, litigiousness), but we have so many strengths (equality, individual liberty, meritocracy). Our political system is still one of the best in the world at protecting freedoms and keeping free trade and competition alive (if not well).
To get the country back on track we need to be willing to do the tough stuff: quit living beyond our means (and reform legislation to prevent more people from their worst instincts), encourage the innovation American businesses excel at, and quit listening to the nationalist propaganda of other nations. Those things are a start anyway.
We have “equality,” hawkgrrrl? Seriously? Sure, women can appear in public here without wearing a burkha, but I think it’s a huge stretch to say our nation has attained “equality.”
Meritocracy? Power still largely lands in the hands of men who are born into wealth and privilege, who do all they can to keep it out of the hands of others. Yet there are plenty of people working harder and more effectively in McDonalds than many CEOs. Are there many countries with greater economic inequality – which the D&C tells us is the source of sin.
Are there any countries that can compare in terms of pornography, glorifying its celebrities, in its number of homeless or the amount of abortions. We seem to be very low on the list of moral merits.
We are Babylon central – the most wicked country on the earth, and one of these days soon we may just have to pay for that.
Nick,
We have legal equality. Many places don’t have that.
Where on earth has more legal equality than America?
dragon, while the Fourteenth Amendment may mandate equal treatment before the law, the United States remains plagued with many examples of inequality.
Or does “equality” only count if you’re a white, heterosexual, economically-secure male, who hasn’t yet reached senior citizen status?
Sure doesn’t approach the conversation I wanted to have…..
Sure doesn’t approach the conversation I wanted to have…..
I fear it may be a lost cause, but here goes nothing:
Back in the 1980s, I (and everybody else) read Tom Clancy’s The Hunt for Red October, a novel about the defection of a Soviet nuclear submarine to the US. As I remember it, most of the story involves officers, but at one point a Russian sonar technician meets up with his American counterpart, and the American had a chance to tell him what was good about the American way of life. What did he talk about? The availability of consumer goods. Why, an American enlisted man could buy himself a personal computer!
Now, the terrible consumer economy under communism was a real problem. However, I personally knew several people who grew up behind the iron curtain. Of course the terrible communist consumer economy had been a burden for them, but their attitude toward it was very often like that of an American who had had to get by on Ramen noodles and public transportation to make ends meet as a college student. What they really valued here was freedom, not wealth.
The one genuine Soviet defector I know well told me how unexpected but deeply satisfying it was to discover that her garbage collectors were not ashamed of having the job they did, and didn’t view themselves as inferior to her. I gathered that in Russia there was a an oppressive and all-pervasive social stratification. For example, when she was sick, she went to the University Professors’ doctor, and those of inferior status went somewhere else. Discovering that there was no special clinic for professors was another surprise after leaving Russia.
Just in passing, the people I knew from communist countries were not great admirers of the US Constitution in the way Americans tend to be. The USSR and its satellites tended to have very liberal constitutions, also containing guarantees of free speech and so forth. Obviously (to them) constitutions were irrelevant. I think they were missing something about American political culture, but they also had a point.
Jeff,
While haven’t agreed with you on several of your recent posts…I think I’m with you on this one. While America certainly has it’s problems, it really is a great nation. America isn’t as special nor as bad as many would like to think.
This article from the NY times gives me hope for the future:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/opinion/09brooks.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
As it stands, we are in financial checkmate. There is no real good solution. It is not the $104,000 per taxpayer (a hefty swims mortgage) in general obligation debt (14 trillion) that is the problem. The real problem is the estimated $400,000 per taxpayer (a huge house on the hill) in unfunded pensions, which is main reason we add $10,000 (a nice used car) to each taxpayers bill every year.
We have a huge spending problem in this country and the lions share is entitlements. We are currently adding $134 Billion to the debt each month. This is more (excluding california) than the total annual budgets of all the western States combined. Unless we make some dramatic changes, it is financial checkmate. Even then, it might be too little, to late.
Well, here’s how many Asian countries avoid one U.S. problem. Children pay their parents a monthly allowance from age 18 until the parents die, regardless of the child being unemployed or the parents being wealthy. It is expected. I can’t imagine any Americans agreeing to that. Kids are more likely to expect the parents to bail them out until the parents die.
Equality – the U.S. does not have a hierarchical mindset like other countries do. In a work setting, we listen to the lowest paid employees and consider them expert in their areas. We do not rely on oppression and intimidation to get people to work. We have a legal system to protect all equally under the law, and we are constantly revising that to improve equal treatment.
Meritocracy doesn’t mean paying everyone equally based on how hard they work (effort), but on the perceived contribution they make to society. One can argue that society values certain jobs too much or too little, but those valuations are known by workers. Jobs with higher pay often also require higher investment (in education or time) or higher risk (being fired or jailed if you make bad decisions). Proof of meritocracy to me is to be found in second generation immigrants. Nearly all of them do better than their parents in terms of education and income. That’s the American dream and why people immigrate – to give their children better opportunities.
look, we’re in decline because back in 1980 some idiot thought that giving money to the rich would somehow trickle down to the rest of the nation. That’s why we’re in decline.
Hawkgrrrl, I think some of the generalizations in your last comment go too far. One in particular that might benefit from a little refinement is that meritocracy means paying everyone…based on…the perceived contribution they make to society. Labor markets fall short of free-market perfection for various reasons, such as imperfect information, but for the sake of discussion let’s indulge in the fiction that they realize the economic ideal of perfect competition.
In that case, what a market accomplishes–and it’s a very important accomplishment–is balancing supply and demand. Unless “perceived contribution” means simply “scarcity”, this is is not the same as distributing rewards according to perceived value. There is no built-in morality to the process. If there is an increasing demand for unethical accountants and lawyers to abet financial fraud, the natural market response is for compensation to rise, limiting the number of such employees hired to the number available, and drawing new workers into the specialty.
I do agree there is some correlation between perceived contribution and economic reward. I also doubt that if each of us made a list of the ten Americans we thought contributed most to society in the 20th century, there would be any overlap at all with the 10 best paid. Jonas Salk might appear on someone’s list. He was a doctor, became famous, and was, I imagine, a wealthy man in at least a modest way, but not highly valued by the market in the way that today’s CEOs are. Bill Gates, to his credit, now spends a lot of time using his fortune to support work like Salk’s.
Dan,
No, the debt problems are are result of the big government programs implemented by the leftists in this country. These big government entitlement programs have bankrupted our country. The left, not the right, created these programs. In short, we have a spending problem, not a revenue problem. We should be able to get by on 2,500,000 million a year. That is more income than the combined income of MOST countries in the world. Moreover, the rich that you trash so much pay the lions share of this income.
Will, not to be a ninny but each American has $45,000 of the debt. Not $104,000
Badger – I agree that a term like meritocracy is simplistic – the U.S. is not perfect – but it is a damn sight better than nearly every other meritocracy out there. The U.S. avoids the pitfalls so many others don’t even attempt to squelch: corruption, strong government intervention in trade, unfair competitive practices, favoritism, racist hiring limitations, elitism, and lack of protection for workers. By eliminating (even imperfectly) things like harrassment, unequal employment opportunity, and regulating pay practices, the U.S. makes the playing field much more level than most other countries.
The rule of law is our greatest ally in meritocracy, and even though there are gaps in legal coverage, one can even use the legal system to address wrongs with a civil suit. It doesn’t take much global business experience to discover just what an effective meritocracy the U.S. is.
Jeff, America is a great country in many ways, but it’s citizens do believe they are exceptional. In your 4th paragraph you talk about the hardest workers, greatest inventors,most creative minds, and the envy of the world.
I live in Australia- most people here believe this about australia buit would not say it out of modesty and respect for the rest of the world.
As far as more freedom, and a more egalitarian society- don’t believe that either. In what way are you more free than an average Australian? Freedom from what.
We are free to enjoy our 6 weeks annual leave, we are free of fear of medical emergency whether insured or not, we are free of national financial catastrophe-partly because our banks are regulated,(the government claims they will run a surplus next year) we are free of many of the political fears you have. We can attain wealth in all the ways you can plus we can invest in the property market because we have a shortage of housing not an excess. We don’t have to worry if we become a single mother (husband leaves), we will get a pension until the youngest child is 16, We are almost completely free of nationalism. We are more environmentally responsible (have you heard of the hills hoist (a solar clothes dryer which, was invented by an Ausralian, and has been in use almost universally for almost a century. I will continue to think of other examples after this is finished. We are free of tension about abortion or same sex marriage, or a living wage.
America, like many other parts of the world, is a nice place to visit, but you wouldn’t want to live there.
Joshua,
Will is using one of the typical right wing anti-government, anti-liberal swipes (the kind that leads to the kind of murder of leftists as we just saw in Norway), that tries to say we’re far more in debt than we think we are. It’s all bullcrap of course.
Geoff,
Well, to a point. If you are poor, America is not really the best place to live. If you are middle class, America is a fine place to live. Good things to see, you get the movies first, for the most part, and so on. If you are wealthy, this place is freaking awesome! So it depends. That said, I don’t believe in the bullcrap that America is exceptional because of this or that. Alexander de Tocqueville considered us exceptional at the time because our idea for government was exceptional. The quote that Jeff uses doesn’t talk at all about the American people. It says
It’s the position that is exceptional, not the people. This isn’t to say he didn’t find exceptional people in America, but if I recall this book well, he’s not saying Americans are better than anyone else. Of course it’s gotten to the heads of lots of Americans that they think they’re better than you Aussies or anyone else. But when it comes to statistics, America is not number one in many aspects today. That’s because other countries adopted “the position” that made America exceptional, thus turning that country exceptional too. Thus today, we have quite a number of “exceptional” countries, Australia included in that. This irks the American ethno-nationalists who hate that others are either equal or better than they. Eventually they resort to the kind of violence we just saw in Norway. That’s the fruit of right-wing hysteria, anger, and hate.
Something that has always concerned me is the way in which American Exceptionalism has crept into doctrines, and seems to be implicit in them. I have never been able to get around the idea that the garden of Eden was in Jackson County, that the new Jerusalem will be in America etc. I think the church still holds to an form of American Exceptionalism.
The thing I find interesting is so many other cultures have claimed to have some form of exceptionalism and divine favour. For instance, in the seventeenth century the English were convinced that Zion would be here, and that God was an Englishman. I have read so many tracts that argue for his Englishness and this as the chosen place for God to gather his people. The hymn Jerusalem equates England as Jerusalem. I think it is natural for us to thing where we were born is special and exceptional, but then so is everywhere else.
What I found most interesting about Geoff’s post is that he talks about freedoms from.
I haven’t really thought about it that much, but when I think about freedom, I phrase it in terms of freedom to.
Geoff,
Australia is one of those place where I could easily live and be very happy.
So I agree with you. I did say that America has attracted people from other places that were hard working, etc. And that is true over the past 200 years.
Even folks from Australia, as great as it is, have come here to live.
Dan,
Thanks for your usual rant. 🙂 What would a post be without at least one.
“It’s the position that is exceptional, not the people.”
Probably splitting hairs in my book, but he did write that in 1836!
Joshua/Dan:
I said tax-payers, not citizens. There are about 135 million taxpayers; thus, about $104 K per taxpayer. Actually, $104 K is understated. First, people like my wife who does not work but is considered a tax-payer as we file a joint return. Secondly, and more importantly, the bottom 50% of “tax-payers” pay almost nothing. Most taxes are paid by the top 10%.
So, Dan, I am not overstating the problem. And, as I have proved in our past discussions, the Democrats have implemented all of these entitlement programs that are choking our budget. As said, in a few years they will be equal to our total income. They will consume 100 percent of all our income. And, the democrats won’t be able to such any more from the rich. We already pay 86% of ALL the federal income.
Unfortunately, it is checkmate unless dramatic (about 40%) cuts are made to the budget. It is simple math and honestly to accept the way Things really are.
Federal income tax isn’t the only tax people pay.
Just an example of the problem:
In 1950, the average new home was 983 sq ft. In 2009, it was 2700 sq ft, even though the average family size is smaller. In the 1980’s, less that 15% of new homes had 9 ft ceilings. It’s now nearly half.
In the UK, average new home = 818 square feet
In Ireland, 947
In Spain, 1044
In France, 1216
Etc. These are all “peer countries” whose average new home is less than half the size of ours (or even nearly a third)
We want more and bigger. And we are willing to mortgage our future to have it now.
Mike S.
Excellent comment.
When thus debt comes to a head and we are forced by our creditors to make the dramatic cuts the larger homes may come in handy. Extended families may need to live in them to get by. It will probably be necessary to have Grandma and Grandpa and possibly some siblings to live with you.
Republicans and Democrats lie, but the numbers don’t. My opinion is that it will come to a head in 2014. The nation will probably give the republicans another try in 2012. The nation will come to the collective conclusion it is financial checkmate. It will be ugly, real ugly before it gets better
Mike,
You’re example has nothing to do with government spending and EVERYTHING TO DO with capitalism.
Will,
Yeah? How many liberals are you right wingers gonna murder?
Dan,
Wow, that’s quite the leap. I was referring to an ugly financial mess.
The failed social programs will no doubt create contempt and violence from both sides, but it will mostly come from those expecting benefits the government can no longer afford.
#28: Dan You’re example has nothing to do with government spending and EVERYTHING TO DO with capitalism.
Perhaps. But the underlying fundamentals are the same. People want more, and they want to pay less. They want more benefits and to pay less taxes. Republicans tend to focus on the less taxes side of the equation. Democrats tend to focus on the more benefits side of the equation.
And the houses thing was just an example. The same thing exists all over the board in government programs. My most demanding patients who feel they are “owed” things – are those on Medicare and Medicaid. People on Social Security “deserve” it, even though it is bankrupting the country. In all of the social services, people want the same benefits (or more), but just want someone else to pay for it, to just borrow it, or for it to just magically appear.
It is absolutely non-sustainable. If you look at current trends, in the next 20 years, Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, minimal defense, and interest in the debt will consume more than 100% of the entire budget – and this is EVEN if you take out EVERY single other program AND increase the marginal tax rate on the “rich” to 100%.
Until people are willing to accept spending less, whether it is on houses, cars, or the sacred cows of government social services, it is a non-sustainable model. It is bankrupting countries in Europe. It will bankrupt us.
We are in a mess because of:
(a) the unfunded drug benefit
(b) the war in Iraq.
Between the two of them, they have actually put the safety of the country in peril.
Now, in the longer run, Medicaid & Medicare spending increases (because they run larger and faster than the growth in the economy) — especially those related to non-compliant diabetes and its complications — are looking scary.
But that would be another economics post.
Mike,
With this being one of the issues we agree on, I don’t want to spoil that with a slight disagreement. I think we are already bankrupt, but are just in a huge state of denial. It will take some anger and bargaining over the next few years before we finally see acceptance.
17 — Geoff — I just got most of the way through Jared Diamnond’s book Collapse. Made me think a good deal about Australia.
Back to the original post:
We absolutely emphasize American Exceptionalism in the LDS Church.
We have the Book of Mormon, which we read as an ancient Mesoamerican (? – many theories) talking about Christopher Columbus and the United States.
We have stories about the Garden of Eden and Adam’s altar, even though there’s NO scientific evidence of any type suggesting mankind started anywhere near the New World.
We have the most “modest” and “best” look mirroring 1960’s United States IBM businessmen and expect other cultures ideally to adopt our look for their church services.
We changed the fundamental principles of the sacrament established by Christ to match United States attitudes during the political Prohibition movement and banned wine from the Lord’s Supper.
We teach that NO ONE came to the New World unless led here by God (does this include Bering Sea migrations prior to Jaredites, Nephites, etc? Or Leif Erickson prior to Columbus?)
Ours is an American religion – like it or not. In Mormonism, Americans are special. The United States is special. We are unique.
#32 Will
We’re not “bankrupt” – we’re just $12-14 trillion “in debt”. It’s a subtle difference, much like deciding what the definition of “is” is. 🙂
Mike,
If America adopts your honesty and optism, we just might make it!
Mike,
I’m sure everyone around the world wants more benefits from lower taxes, but that doesn’t explain the utterly ridiculous position some take here in America, where their real goal is to “starve the beast” rather than provide essential services to citizens. Most Americans actually, according to recent polls, accept that taxes need to be higher right now. Because most Americans actually realize that “starving the beast” will not work well to provide services to the poor. Seriously Mike, show me, before the introduction of Social Security, just how well the private sector took care of the poor, afflicted, sick, and the elderly. Please. I dare you. Show me how well they did.
But Social Security is NOT bankrupting the country. Com’on Mike, you’re starting to sound like raving mad Will, and not the more reasoned person I thought you were. Com’on, you’re familiar enough with Social Security. It is ALL paid for. It does not hold a debt. If the revenue is lower, so will the checks to the elderly be lower. Social Security is not the problem, Mike. Don’t act like that’s what is “bankrupting” the country. As you say in a later comment,
Though I know you’re making a snarky comment here (not sure why, because you are actually correct, that there is a difference between stating someone is bankrupt and that individual or in this case nation, owing a certain amount of debt.) Are you suggesting that the United States does not have the resources to pay the $12-14 trillion “in debt?” The creditors who hold that debt don’t seem to think so. Why would you?
Well yeah, it’s bankrupting the “small” countries of Europe. Show me a large, well developed western European economic powerhouse that is bankrupt or close to because of its social services. The smaller countries of Europe were at more risk with an economic downturn than the larger ones. This isn’t because of their social services, but because tax revenues dropping in smaller countries tends to have a larger impact upon the budgets of smaller countries, particularly developing countries that haven’t yet created a sufficiently large middle and upper class. I mean, com’on Mike. Don’t compare the United States to Greece. It’s utterly stupid to do so.
Mike,
It’s actually better to compare one of the states in the United States to Greece. How have individual states fared in the economic downturn? If it were not for the support of the federal government and Obama’s stimulus package in 2009, exactly where would most states in the Union be right now, Mike? They’d be in default, just like Greece. Because they are smaller economic systems and a shock like the 2008 economic collapse harms smaller markets far greater than larger ones. Larger ones have far more resources at hand to recover. Thank GOD that Americans voted for a Democrat in 2008. I can’t tell you how much worse it would have been with McCain.
Dan,
You need a math lesson. You are totally delusional if you can honestly look at the numbers and say we are not at or near bankruptcy. Totally, stark raving mad.
The reason Washington( both sides) has not done anything is because they don’t have the courage to do the right thing. They know they need to make massive cuts, they just don’t have the courage to do so.
In this corner, we have Will. And in the other corner, we have Dan.
It will be a draw, but here we go again….. 🙂
For the record, Australia is also exceptional in how it has turned out. While the US has its risks, so does Australia, namely an overvalued workforce, a nationalistic streak (among large Aussie businesses that make it difficult for global companies to work with them), and changes to immigration policies that are reducing the number of immigrants from India and Asian countries. Australia may speak more modestly, but its policies speak louder than words. As an American, I think it would be a great place to live. As a business person, the sustainability is questionable. The US is also having these issues. Both need to face their challenges to retain their exceptional status.
Stephen M —
I have to disagree a bit with your characterization that the cause of the budget deficit is Iraq, Afghanistan and the prescription drug benefit.
Here are the FY 2011 figures for all three components: Iraq war is budgeted at $46 billion, Afghanistan war at $117 billion and Medicare Part D comes in at $72 billion.
The total of all three is about $235 billion. That is about 1/6th of our $1.4 trillion dollar deficit.
Will & Dan —
I’m going to side with Will on the need to bring the budget into balance. Our annual deficit is bigger than the GDP of Australia. But, I’m going to differ a bit on the path to achieving that.
Cut, cut, cut is attractive. But, it won’t get us there.
The real trick is to basically cap future spending growth and grow the economy faster. That combination will get us to balance.
First, the real long-term threat is entitlements. The baby boomers are like a watermelon swallowed by a snake. As they age, they require more in terms of social security, medicare, and for the poorer ones, Medicaid. Because the number of U.S. workers is not growing rapidly enough, the imbalance will growth. We need to boost the retirement age for both medicare and social security, reduce inflationary adjustments and, probably, add a means-test component. It is unfair to hurt current retirees but changes should be implemented to kick into effect in about 10-15 years.
Second, boosting economic growth is critical. Our tax system is uncompetitive. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the free world. We need a better immigration system that encourages entrepreneurs and educated folks to come to the U.S. We need to reduce uncertainty and fear that is keeping folks from hiring. Our higher education system is the world’s best but too expensive. Our primary and secondary system is not performing adequately. I don’t have all the answers on this one but growth puts people to work and boosts revenues.
Third, we need to pare back federal employment and programs in a host of areas. Programs get started and never end. Many have outlived their justification. I’d set up Little Hoover Commissions and go maybe two departments a year. Require Congress to vote up or down on proposed reforms.
Fourth, health care must be tackled. The President promised that health care reform would reduce cost. The evidence is that costs are actually increasing faster — even without the program fully implemented. We need to revisit this issue with a focus on cost reduction (and, just cutting hospital or physician reimbursements doesn’t deal with underlying costs). Some states seem to be having some success in reducing costs (Indiana comes to mind). We need to look at their successes.
Fifth, defense spending is going to have to go down. The end of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts will help. But, we need to be careful not to hollow out our forces. I’m really concerned with some indications that the F-35 may be on the chopping block. Air superiority is critical to U.S. power.
I’m optimistic long term. We’ve overcome far bigger challenges that the current deficit/debt. We are still the world’s largest economy and the greatest superpower. But, we need to take action to protect our position and our kid’s future.
Steve,
Don’t be under the impression that I don’t want the budget balanced. That doesn’t even come across in my comments. Don’t assume that Will wants the budget balanced. He after all, voted for Bush in 2004, even though Bush showed absolutely no desire to balance any budget in his first term. Will rewarded Bush with a second term. Right wingers don’t actually care about the deficit. They care that a Democrat is in the White House. THAT’S WHAT IT’S ALL ABOUT. They don’t really care about the deficit, because they’ve NEVER held their own to the standard they hold Democrats. Will sings the praises of Ronald Reagan, even though Ronald Reagan tripled the national debt. Even though Ronald Reagan raised taxes like 11 times or something. Will is not for reducing the deficit. He’s against Democrats. That’s all he’s got, Steve. Don’t listen to the bullcrap. There’s nothing there but anger and hatred against Democrats. That’s all he’s got. That’s all Republicans have, Steve. They don’t actually care about the deficit. If they did, they would have demanded Bush raise taxes to pay for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They would have demanded Bush and the Republicans fund Medicare Part D through tax increases, or not pass the damn bill in the first place! They never did that. Because THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT THE DAMN DEFICIT.
Will,
I can honestly look at the numbers and say we are not at or near bankruptcy. And so can Moody’s, which keeps America’s credit rating at ultra safe. Who is stark raving mad, Will? It isn’t me. It’s the one who claims we are bankrupt based on terrible evidence. The United States has impeccable credit rating because the United States has never missed a payment. The only reason the United States is even threatening to miss a payment is because of idiots like you, stark raving mad lunatics who think it is cool to turn the United States into a third world country that cannot pay its debts. You are the stark raving mad lunatic Will.
Healthcare seems to be a big issue with Americans. Are you aware that the american system costs a larger proportion of gdp than most countries that are described by Americans as socialist. Because you have various entities like insurance companies, and drug companies, making a buck, it costs more while providing less. Believe it or not a government system can be more efficient than capitalism.
If both sides could be aware of this perhaps you could reduce costs and increase services.
We have a pharmacutical benifits system (gov dept) here where drug companies have not only to prove the effectiveness of a new drug, but also the cost benifit compared to the drug it replaces. Our gov dept negotiates these issues with the drug companies before they can sell a drug in Australia. I do not pay more than $5 for a prescription drug, because I’m a senior citizen.
I’m not sure what you are referring to Hawkgirl. I am just claiming ignorance not contesting what you say.
I have not heard the term exceptionalism before. I do think one of the reasons the US is not liked is this, but it is percieved from outside as arrogance.
#18 – Agreed. My employer, the US of A, is going into debt EVERY DAY to the tune of $4.1 Billion (that’s with a “B”). Sufficient to build an aircraft carrier (sans air wing). Granted, what WOULD we do with an aircraft carrier a day (not actually too far from our production in US shipyards during WWII), but at least we’d have a hunk of floating scrap iron. All we’re getting is currency ever becoming worth less than the paper it’s printed on.
#44,#45 – Dan, the only thing that I agree is that the Republicans didn’t (and still don’t) care a whit about balancing the budget deficit. Surely fiscal responsibility was not exercised during their tenure of holding the Presidency and both houses of Congress. Yet the current crop of yahoos decided to do even worse. That some have finally said “enough is enough” (so-called “tea partiers”) is welcome. To even compare then to the homicidal maniacs that caused the recent Norway bombings is utter nonsense and sheer tripe.
We HAVE to get our financial house in order, and the longer we continue the status quo, the worse the day of reckoning will be when it finally comes. Considering the lack of political will that thus far Congress and the President seem to demonstrate, I have my doubts that a rational solution is in the offing.
Douglas,
No one here doubts that we have to get our financial house in order. I certainly don’t doubt that. The question is how. The stark raving mad lunatics like Will will tell you that we can’t actually pay for the services we’ve already set into law. But yet these very same stark raving mad lunatics set us into an unfunded war, the tally of which, not long ago surpassed $1 TRILLION dollars. At what point will they accept that a raising of their taxes is going to have to happen in order to pay for that war? Or are they suggesting that their children pay for their war of choice?
Look Douglas, I understand the need to “do something” in order to “get our financial house in order” but you know what? We probably have to do nothing in order for this to happen. Can you believe that? Congress simply has to do nothing and the budget rights itself! By doing nothing, they let the Bush Tax Cuts expire in 2012 (though they should have expired in 2010—which would have increased revenue this year, but hey, they’re stupid down there in DC), they let the economy rise, as it naturally does, they let the “Obamacare” go into effect and magically, the budget rights itself!
See how easy it is! And with our already aptly named “Do Nothing” Congress, this is the best plan. They all take a vacation. They all go home. Do nothing. Spend time with their kids. Go on vacation. Chillax. Get off the TV for a while. And magically everything rights itself. Then when they’ve had time to cool off, they could come back and start talking about reforming Medicare (which does need help).
But Douglas, keep in mind the Republican position taken up by the likes of the stark raving mad Will. They don’t want the government working right. They want to make it as dysfunctional as possible. Only with a truly dysfunctional government can they convince voters that there is no worth in providing money to government. When Democrats are in charge, while mistakes happen, and people do bad things as is in regular life, they actually run an efficient government. When Republicans are in charge, you get Katrina. They purposefully create an environment where government fails, because that’s how you best argue that government sucks and we shouldn’t need it. They hate the idea that we have a centralized government because the very nature of a centralized government takes more money from the rich to provide services to poorer people. The Republican position is solely with the wealthiest people, and they bamboozle the poor into thinking they’re providing them a better life. It’s bullcrap, Douglas. It’s deception. They want to starve the government. They want programs that help the poor eliminated, even though they know private organizations suck at providing help for the poor at anywhere close to the same level as the poor receive from their own government. Their argument is elitist and unchristian. Ayn Rand said it best with her ultra-selfish character John Galt, who said this to the poor:
That’s the Republican position.
As the battle continues, let me make a few key observations:
1. “The US is arrogant.” – Up until the past 25 years or so, we’d have every right to be that way. No country did it better. Creating wealth, innovation, freedom, welcoming, etc. But we’ve lost it somewhat and now we should be sufficiently humbled to retreat and re-build.
2. “No one is innocent, no one is particularly guilty.” – There is not a politician, past or present that can look an American in the eye and say they are not part of the problems we now face. They are all guilty equally. The sooner they stop running for office and try to serve the American People (not corporations, fat cats and the like) the better off we’ll all be.
3. “Partisanship has turn people against each other.” Dan and Will. Case closed. Though Will does not do nearly the same level of childish name calling that Dan does.
4. “The solution lies in compromise” – The American system was designed and built for parties to compromise. The sooner politicians and partisans figure this out, the better. Even those who love to invoke the founding fathers should realize this.
Dan #48:
By your own accounting, had we NOT spent a TRILLION dollars on Iraq and Afghanistan, we’d STILL be hitting the same debt level we have NOW in about 9 MORE MONTHS. You think THAT’S the cause of the problem?
I may be a stark raving lunatic, but I’m a mathematically competent stark raving lunatic. 😀
#45
Here’s what Moody’s (and S&P) actually said:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/07/24/the_problem_is_spending_110694.html
“When Moody’s, the bond rating agency, threatened to downgrade the creditworthiness of the U.S. government if the ceiling on the national debt isn’t raised by Aug. 2, the threat was reported on the evening news on CBS and NBC, and on the front pages of many newspapers. But journalists paid less attention when Moody’s and Standard & Poor’s said they would downgrade U.S. bonds if federal debt isn’t cut by $4 trillion over the next 10 years.”
So, Moody’s apparently thinks that raising the debt ceiling without real deficit cutting in the next few years triggers the downgrade catastrophe, too.
Jeff: I agree with 49, although I think a compromise that just changes the manner of our economic execution doesn’t qualify as an acceptable compromise. Steve’s comment in 43 is the most reasonable comment in the thread.
Jeff
“But we’ve lost it somewhat and now we should be sufficiently humbled to retreat and re-build.”
Amen!
Steve/Firetag:
I wish I shared your optism; and, I point to what Jeff said and the current situation with Obama and the house. They have been fighting for months and have no real debt reduction. What, a Trillion over 10 years. Seriously, they are incapable of a soluion. Unfortunately, because they refuse to solve the problem and deal with the cuts that we need, we will at some point in the future be forced to make these cuts by some creditor that does not have the best interest of our country in mind.
Jeff, Firetag,
Compromise? On what points do Republicans compromise right now? Taxes need to be increased in order to increase revenue. Where is the Republican compromise on that? Don’t speak of compromise until both sides actually do this. Otherwise, only one side is actually compromising here.
Sounds like a great time to raise taxes on the rich.
Jeff,
In your comment #49, #3, you say
This is Will in comment #39:
Just sayin…
Dan,
The problem with a tax boost in the middle of economic weakness is that such would even further undermine the economy.
Many cite the Clinton tax increases and 1990s economic prosperity as evidence that tax increases don’t hurt the economy. That misses a few key facts: First, Clinton increased taxes during a period of sharp upswing. Second,
Oops. Accidentally hit publish.
Second, the Clinton tax increases were mitigated by GOP tax cuts — most importantly on capital gains — after the 1994 victories.
We need to focus on economic growth. That means doing nothing that has a negative effect — either on the tax or regulatory side.
Steve,
The problem with spending cuts in the middle of economic weakness is that such would even further undermine the economy.
So what do we do? Let me tell you, Steve, businesses’ anxieties are not tied to government tax policies. They are tied directly to weak demand. Demand is currently low because you have 17 million Americans out of work! How the hell can those 17 million Americans get work if businesses are not hiring? How can businesses hire people if demand is low? Who do you think gets money from “government spending?” It’s the poor who immediately spend it!
Tax the rich, give money to the poor and the economy will grow.
“Demand is currently low because you have 17 million Americans out of work! How the hell can those 17 million Americans get work if businesses are not hiring”
Exactly. And there is no way a small business owner (where most of the hiring and thus tax revenue comes from) is going to hire people if they think the Goverment is going to take more of their money. Why should they take the risk to hire someone if they ate going to end up with less after all us said and done. They are doing exactly as they are now. They are holding onto their money until the economy stabilizes. There is no way they are going to invest in more employees unless they think they can put MORE in their pocket. Period.
Seriously, you need to get a job that involves some risk. For that matter, no one is stopping you. Why dont you put YOUR money on the line and start a business and hire other people? You ate pointing the finger at others because they are not doing it. So, put your money where your mouth is and start a business. Hire some people and put them to work. Unless you are willing to do this as I have, you are part of the problem and not the solution.
Dan —
It would be so easy if merely redistributing wealth created prosperity. But, I think one would have to look long and hard for examples where that happened.
Until recently, I ran a small business. I can tell you that fear over current government policies is playing a huge roll in the current lack of hiring. Why hire someone if you are afraid that your taxes or regulatory burden is about to increase? I heard lots of concern about the Obama healthcare plan.
Steve Wynn (the Democrat casino head) recently blamed the President for businesses not hiring. The attitude he described is what I’ve seen on the street.
Government can play a role but taking one American and giving to another doesn’t do much. I think the President’s stimulus showed the folly of that approach (His own economist estimated that each job cost $278k).
I’d like to see government opening new opportunities. The did so with the Homestead Act and the growth of railroads. But, those were different than throwing money at a problem. Basically, the federal government offered land in exchange for development.
I would like to see the same policy approach with respect to the Moon. It is only three days away. Has a land area the size of Africa. Its surface is iron, titanium, manganese, silicon and littered with platinum. Harrison Schmitt, a former U.S. Senator and the only geologist to explore the Moon, argues that we could use the platinum to transform our economy from oil to abundant hydrogen. What can government do? Encourage the development of cheaper trans-orbital transportation. Define property rights. Boost research activities.
Steve,
Um, America from the 1930s-1970s worked quite well at creating prosperity. Maybe the phrase “redistributing wealth” is not a very good phrase to use in describing actual reality. Maybe it only works in the warped minds of American conservatives…
Silly Willy,
It’s a good thing small business owners don’t make over $250,000 a year…
We actually agree on something. But the reason is where we differ. Businesses are not hiring because demand is low, thus they have no need for new employees. It takes an outside force to inject money in such a stagnant situation. And the only force capable of that is the government. Take it from those wealthy 1%, give it to the poor. They will spend the money at small businesses who will then see a need for more employees. It’s magical.
First of all, I didn’t eat anything…but I am not pointing a finger at anyone for not hiring, silly Willy. I think it is YOU who needs to get off your ass, off the internet and back to work. Clearly you spend too much time dithering on the internet. Clearly you’re not doing enough for your business to attract customers. Get back to work, you idiot.
Dan,
Obama, and the democratic controlled house and senate, tried that. It failed. It failed miserably. More people are without work. The economy is a mess. A total absolute cluster, with no real vision for the future. He did follow through on his promise of hope and change. He has fundamentally changed the role of government. Created massive social programs and it has
resulted in hope –people hoping for a job.
It is as true now as when Solomon said it “where there is no vision people perish”. The economy is a mess because there is so much uncertainty. Nobody knows what tomorrow is going to bring so they are holding onto their money. Investors are not investing. Consumers are not consuming. Obama has failed at providing a clear vision for the future.
The economy recovered from the diaster of Carter because Reagan restored faith in the American dream. He made us feel proud to be Americans. Conversely, Obama is out apologizing to the world. Reagan restored the concept of American Exceptionalism and Obama has destroyed that idea and are perishing as a result.
ah regurgitated garbage.
Dan,
“This is Will in comment #39:
You are totally delusional if you can honestly look at the numbers and say we are not at or near bankruptcy. Totally, stark raving mad.”
Sorry, but by my count, you are way, way far ahead in the name calling game.
Just sayin….
no worries Jeff. I’m in good company. Our Founding Fathers were far worse at name calling then I could ever be. It is a naturally American thing to do. 🙂
Dan – The REVENUEs of the Federal Gov’t need to be increased, not necessarily tax rates (nor imposition of additional taxes like VAT). So-called “Reganomics” (not perfectly implemented but in its day a revolutionary approach) showed that high marginal income tax rates throttle investment and innovation; conversely, lowering marginal rates results in a significant increase in federal revenue. Has worked EVERY TIME it was tried.
Can’t speak for all the “Bush” tax cuts, the fave “bete noire” was Shrub repealed the 10% surtax on the top 36% rate that Clinton and a Democrat-friendly Congress imposed in ’93 (and give the Hillbilly horn-dog credit, he managed to keep it during three Republican Congresses). Reinstating it would make very little difference in overall Federal revenues from personal income tax (about an 1.5% increase at best, assuming that investment and compensation decisions aren’t affected, not necessarily a good assumption). Part of the “Bush” tax cuts is the $1,000 per child tax credit which helps working-class and middle-class far more (in fact, it’s all but wiped out for high earners), it certainly helped when we had four teenagers and a baby under our roof..imagine the impact of $5,000 extra tax on a family of seven getting by on a Gov’t worker’s salary! Now that the kiddies are mostly grown and gone, this dual-income family will make “Uncle” very happy every April 15th…
As for Obamacare somehow being an economic boon…why then, pray tell, are so many of his cronies in Democrat-dominated states seeking exemptions?
However, getting the Federal ship righted is far more a matter than mere conservative vs. liberal posturing. Habits that have built over several generations, namely the “pay as you owe” approach to pensions (Civil Service and military) and the ongoing denial of the large build-up of unfunded liabilities have come to a head…and few, save the Tea Partiers, have the courage to point it out.
An aircraft carrier a day further in debt…and still some say “all is well?”
Not to get into the hyperbole or creative name-calling of the Will/Dan show, I thought I’d throw out actual numbers on the “tax the rich” method of fixing the problem.
A quote/paraphrase…
And this is just to cover a single year’s deficit, let alone start actually paying off any of our debt. So, raising the taxes on the rich is NOT the solution. It makes people feel good (especially those who don’t really pay ANY federal income tax), and it makes for great campaign speeches, but as a policy or as a way of fixing the problem, it doesn’t work.
Unless we are willing to cut benefits, NO solution will work.
Mike,
Cut expenses and increase revenue. It’s not that hard. Why are you guys on the right so unwilling to do what Ronald Reagan did? He signed into law the largest tax increase in US history DURING A RECESSION!
Most of us are one accident or injury away from financial disaster. The income disparity will continue to grow and good manufacturing jobs have already been sucked away into the foreign vacuum that spits out what we buy at the big box stores. Our political leaders first priority is to get reelected not take care of you or me. The legal brothel previously known as the US Supreme Court has allowed corporate domination of our country to continue by allowing a fictional person (corporations) to fund elections. With the Iranian nuclear threat looming, and our economy in shambles, I expect to see the words of Isaiah fulfilled shortly.
rob — I have to disagree with some of what you say, agree with others.
Dan — what is your take on Italy’s economy and debt problems?
42 — Steve — the numbers you quote are not the complete story of the actual expense in any of the accounts.
43 — Steve — you’ve hit the correct points, all in all.
Dan — the Republicans are not evil incarnate. /Sigh. The Democrats aren’t either.
All the number crunching aside, the formula is quite simple, really.
No amount of rational budget cutting will erase the deficit in the short or medium term. The best and only way to fix the deficit is to raise revenue.
There are two ways to do that. One would be to raise taxes and other revenues on the poor snooks who are now working until we reach a level that will have a positive effect on the deficit. That would be quite oppressive, even if you took all rich people’s money away and made them earn it the old fashion way — hard work.
The other, more reasonable method is to have more people working, who pay taxes, which will more naturally raise revenues. This will cause the deficit to disappear quicker because not only are people now earning money, which is taxed, they will also be off the public programs, which is a deficit creator at this point.
The other tweaks like fixing the tax system, monetary policy, the entitlement programs, cutting spending, trade issues, etc. should also be implemented, but will never have the same effect as full employment.
Our biggest obstacle toward this goal is the American Congress, which does not have the best interests of the country at heart. Their self-interest has gotten to the point where they cannot govern effectively, “of the people, by the people and FOR the people.
We need fundamental change in Washington. Unfortunately, the deck is now stacked against the American People. We enjoy our way of life too much to rock the boat. We enjoy the low prices, the easy access to credit and the sales pitches to ever force a real change in Washington and our local governments.
The cycle may shift back at some point. When the American People get tired of not having, not spending and not running up the credit cards to get what they want. You ‘ll see the economy improve, more people go back to work and the then the cycle starts again. But the underlying fundamentals will not have changed.
The US Government will continue to operate in the best interests of its special interests and their needs will be met. Wall Street will still have its way, the corporations will still overpay their executives and treat their employees like dirt, continuing to ship jobs overseas to raise profits, the housing bubble will form again and we’ll go through it all over again.
and again.
and again.
Mike
“Unless we are willing to cut benefits, NO solution will work.”
Isnt that what I have been saying?
Dan,
By the way, I am actually in favor of socializing our health care system as long as liberalism is the first mental disorder that is treated.
Stephen,
Dunno. I hear they’re next in line to collapse after Spain. Which is too bad. I love their pasta.
hey Mike S.,
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2011072921/plutocracy-and-debt-ceiling-debate
If you do raise the tax on the wealthiest and the corporations, shockingly you no longer have a deficit. I don’t know why this is so difficult for people to understand.
hey Mike,
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/25/us-airlines-fares-idUSTRE76O4I920110725
Why didn’t the airlines pass along a cut in their fares to their customers after their taxes were cut? Maybe because the conservative idiotic principle that cutting taxes reduces costs for consumers is pure bunk and bullcrap. Guess what the airlines just did? Instead of lowering airfares by 10-15% to account for the reduced tax, they increased the cost of the airfare by 10-15%.
Time to tax them even higher it seems. Same with those making over $500,000…tax them at 50%. It worked well under Reagan. It should work just fine now.
Dan,
You really need to get back into the workforce. You have lost touch with reality. You need to have some skin in the game before making the commentary that you do. Seriously, get a job.
Seriously Will, get back to work and stop dithering on the internet. I bet you’re doing this from work. I wonder what your boss thinks…
Exceptional? As to what?
William James, Spanish American War critic said it best: “The worship of the bitch goddess success, and our squalid cash interpretation of success–that is our national disease.”
So if we go deeper and deeper into debt and our standard of living continues to decline and our gross production of crap is less “Gross” this year then last year, what does that have to do with being “exceptional” or not? Is it primarily about our ability to get things and consume at an ever increasing rate? I hear tell that if we lose our economic power that we will have to severely cut our funding of National “Defense” (defense being the ultimate euphemism for Imperial Powers). Our soldiers will not get paid. Good. Bring them home so they can (in the words of Voltaire and his wandering idiots in Candide) “cultivate their own gardens.” The day we start using our funds to bless the lives of the least of the least and quit funding at the costs of trillions our wars of aggressions and quit murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians worldwide in order to retain “control” of resources so as to allow us to be “exceptionally” fat is the day I might reconsider calling our nation “exceptional.” Until then we are, imo, exceptionally evil, exceptionally deluded, exceptionally self-absorbed, and exceptionally deluded in thinking that because we have big houses, lots of shit to fill those houses, and consume more energy then any other nation that we are only exceptionally wrong in thinking we are nothing other then another stinking, decaying Pax Romano.
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