I know that Honor Codes are Bloggernacle fodder at its finest, but last week I was reading the BYU-Idaho Scroll and I found this quote about the Honor Code that, quite frankly, disturbed me:
Kevin Miyasaki, vice president of Student Services and Activities, said living a life of personal honor not only protects students, but prepares them to live a covenant-keeping life. Miyasaki said those who choose not to live the Honor Code distract from the unity needed to create Zion…Vice President Miyasaki said that when a person understands the Honor Code as a measure of personal integrity, obeying the Honor Code becomes a privilege rather than an inconvenience.
Here, a representative of the President’s Council of BYU-Idaho equates Zion-like unity with uniformity. Not only that, he then teaches that integrity is measured by Honor Code compliance. I was, of course, upset. I thought the definition of integrity was living with moral character. I suppose I used to see integrity the same way as Vice President Miyasaki.
I’m almost embarrassed to admit that a reality show helped me see honor and integrity in a different way. I’ve watched The Amazing Race for years and in Spring of 2005 Season 7 aired. Back then I was pretty prejudiced against LGBT. I was working my first full-time job out of BYUI in Las Vegas. On my first day when they showed me I’d be working next to the gay legal intern, I was kind of disgusted. One of the interesting dynamics of The Race is that there were several religious teams and one gay couple, Lynn and Alex. During one of the tasks, a team rolled their vehicle, and had injuries. A religious team passed the rolled car and the only team that stopped to help the injured passengers was the gay couple. I remember expressing my confusion and dismay to my husband that they (read: the gays) were the only ones to stop and help??! It sounds so silly, but that one moment of TV had a big impact on me. That began my transition into seeing honor and integrity more as how we see and treat others, to me that is the biggest part of having a moral character. Yes, I believe integrity also includes honesty and keeping your word, but I think it is also much more than that.
I don’t have a problem with having Honor Codes and reminding students that part of having integrity is honoring your word. I wish instead of Pres. Clark’s #anklegate, we’d get this message, “You gave your word and we want you to keep it. Learning how to keep your word is an important part of learning integrity (but it’s not the whole thing).” I strongly believe that teaching honor code obedience as a way to measure integrity is dangerously false. I feel that the President’s Council who defined these terms this way works closely with the Church Board of Education and this reflects directly from the upper echelons, unfortunately. This conflation with requiring conformity is damning to Zion; if Zion only comes with uniformity, I fear we will never have Zion.
Are people who break Honor Codes are the distraction keeping us from Zion? How would you define integrity and honor? How do you define Zion? Will we ever have Zion in this life, and if so how?
I for one don’t think I could go to BYU-I and I am in a bishopric right now! It feels like I am in biblical times and the rules have become more important than God. I feel like I am seeing modern day Pharisees with their millions of rules and if you break one of these man-made rules, you are instantly judged that in your heart you are against God.
I am glad to know that not ALL of the professors up in the nasal (and brain?) freezing cold are in a different world.
http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2014/08/julie-willis-asking-questions/
I just read the following yesterday (sorry I don’t have a reference and if anybody does, please share):
Hugh Nibley wrote:
The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism… the haircut becomes the test of virtue in a world where Satan deceives and rules by appearances.
I would love to see a comment for those who favor the “rules” of the honor code. Happy Hubby must agree with the “rules” required to be a member of the bishopric. He even questions others to make sure they are living the “rules” to enter the Temple. He interviews the youth and encourages them to obey the rules — anyway I hope he does. He has the Handbooks of Instructions that provides lots of rules. He sustains the men who are on the Board of Trustees that establishes the honor code as prophets, seers and revelators. if he serves in a Bishopric, with all its rules, the Honor Code is a breeze unless one wants to make an issue of it. It is so popular to be contrary.
“Here, a representative of the President’s Council of BYU-Idaho equates Zion-like unity with uniformity.” That is not what he said at all.
I choose to interpret the underlying meaning of the statements similar to the author. This uniformity dumbs down religion into a shallow thing. I’ve also thought that depicting the modern day good Samaritan as gay as totally apropos. We avoid the uncleanness and defilement of the world (by dressing modestly) and continue on with our priestly duties and so on…
You can argue “They agreed. If they don’t follow it they don’t have integrity.” Perhaps, but it’s a manipulation to ‘help you obey’ and for many that just doesn’t work. Kind of like going to the temple and realizing, “Oh man what did I get myself into.”
I can understand addressing situations where blatant and egregious disregard for the standard is displayed, but c’mon at this point the principle has been outweighed by the application. This is not a felonious lying to God, but the equivalent of going 5 over the speed limit (also a malleable standard).
I just think it’s interesting in all the different places I’ve lived and jobs I’ve had in the past 15 years the people who have taught me more about integrity and helping others the most have been the LGBT, atheists, baptists, etc. The kind of Honor Code I lived at Ricks College was a drop in the bucket compared to what I have learned since then. To come back to Rexburg has been disconcerting . . .
When I went to BYU, the honor code was a farce (don’t know if it’s still the same). They told the story of Maeser not stepping out of a circle if he gave his word he wouldn’t. Then, in a ridiculous twist, they refused to take the student’s word that they would live by the honor code while attending BYU. Not only did the student have to reiterate their commitment annually (your word is only good for a year) but your ecclesiastical leader had to sign the endorsement too (your word really isn’t good enough). Not to mention arbitrary enforcement of honor code rules (rules don’t apply to athletes or people with certain last names). What a joke.
As an active member, I long for Zion. But Zion is less about physical conformity and more about unity of heart (like the gay couple who stopped to help accident victims). We won’t reach Zion until we understand this at every level in the church. And with leaders still exemplifying the pharisaical mindset outlined in this post, we’ve clearly got a long way to go.
Any act of uniformity toward the group’s norms made by the individual members does, of course, lead to a stronger group, which is what Miyasaki is saying.
Groups pressure its individuals to conform all the time, and in this case, it is using “integrity” to do so.
Like the poster, I’ve always defined integrity as doing the right thing regardless of consequences, so by definition, integrity is about the individual’s choices and actions, not the group’s. However, integrity could also be defined as internal strength, such as the integrity of a building relies on the well-being of its individual components. So in the case of BYU-I, the group’s internal strength *is* related to the choices of its members.
However, in this case, the group norms (i.e., the Honor Code) are not actually necessary for the group’s survival. The group (i.e., BYU-I) could exist quite effectively with different group norms. In fact, IMO, the Honor Code is unhealthy, because it is based on a lie–the length of one’s skirt does not equate extra-special righteousness. And the group, which is sponsored by and represents an organization which supposedly follows Christ, should have group norms that reflect Christian beliefs. Christ never pressured anyone into following him, especially using guilt tactics like stating the strength of the group depends on how clothing choices.
To me, Zion will be when we have all become so much like our Heavenly Parents that we are filled with love and goodness, and this will bring the unity we seek. I’m not interested in Zion if it means we all have to look and dress alike. If heaven is as boring and uncreative as that, it won’t be much of a heaven.
And I think of integrity as living your life in line with your beliefs. The post made me think of a girl who showed an example of integrity to me. A few months ago, I went to a student talent show at the local university. One of the categories was songwriting, and in the introduction to this young woman’s song, she explained that she was part of the Catholic student group. She walked out on stage in what I would consider to be a short spaghetti-strap nightgown, and played the piano and sang her song, which was all about how much she loved Jesus and how good He had been to her. I felt overwhelmed with this child’s courage to perform a song like that in a very secular atmosphere, and I felt and still feel that our Heavenly Parents were pleased with her, nightgown and all. She openly lived out her belief, and that’s integrity to me.
As a church, we turn these beautiful words like integrity and modesty into pointless arbitrary-rule-following.
@#2 Rober60
I am not quite following what statement you are trying to make.
I do interview the youth and I encourage them to try and not be judgemental to their non-member friends during my 5th Sunday / 3rd hour sessions. I am much more interested in their spirital growth and maturity than going through a list. When a young man told me he didn’t want to do a recommend interview, I congradulated him on being mature, I told him that God loves him and to make sure he wasn’t beating himself up.
I would like an honor code that moved me as a student to be a better person and help others. I have taken on my several professional “honor codes” and I am proud to have done so. It makes it easier to make the right choice when a decision is before me. That can include telling the bishop that ‘I’ feel he is wrong.
So I would have a hard time at BYU-I because I would want to be posting the talk “missing the mark” all over the place pointing to some of the items that have nothing to do with living a righteous and moral life. BYU-I is VERY intolerant (from what I have been told) about ANY dissention. If you don’t think the honor code is the best thing and 100% written by the hand of God (unlike that wimpy honor code in Provo for the heathens) then you are “against God.”
I didn’t know BYU(Provo) and BYUI have different honor codes. Is BYU Hawaii’s honor code different too? How do we know which is the *true* honor code?
What does “atheists, baptists, etc” mean? I can’t think of what group atheists and Baptists both belong to that would provide a guide to fill out the etc, other than that they aren’t Mormons.
I would think integrity is shown when an individual does what she/he has promised to do. You may not like the honor code, think it stupid or believe that you could never live it etc etc and that is fine but if you are attending the school then you have promised to follow the honor code. Keeping it once you have promised to do so even if you don’t like it shows you have integrity. I don’t see that he was saying in any way that the need to live the honor code extended beyond the students who have promised to do so.
Not an alum or fan of any BYUs but how is that principle of integrity different than abstaining from tea to obey the WOW? Tea isn’t bad. It comes down to agreeing to obey simply because we are asked and trusting that we will grow from submitting to the will of the sustained leadership.
Well the WOW is a commandment for one big item.
I can’t say that obedience of rules made by others that are harmful are allowed in my personal honor code. I will not stand by and let them hurt others.
And I wouldn’t go to BYU-I because I don’t think I could live their honor code without my integrity forcing me to say out loud over and over that these are silly and keeping the focus away from focusing on following Christ.
What is integrity?
I think it means to stay true to the pact you make with the university when becoming a student. You promised to comply, so you should comply. That is integrity.
The problem is that we are interpreting BYU honor code rules as influencing ideals about dress standards in the broader LDS culture, and we chafe at that.
Over the holidays in Provo I was watching The Hobbit at a packed theater and every single guy had facial hair. These were undoubtedly mostly Mormons, probably active, but not BYU students obviously. So I don’t know how much the broader LDS culture really feels influenced by Honor Code rules at BYU.
@Nate
I agree if you have promised to comply that you should. That does not preclude voicing an opinion that you would like for parts of it to be changed. But often ANY type of even mild dissention is almost enough to get you in trouble.
From what I understand, the BYU Provo honor code was originally created by students and eventually became something required of all students by the administration.
I am not so sure those guys in the theater were not students. My son tells me quite a few kids just shave when going to the testing center or any administrative interactions.
I went to a university with an honor code. Violation of the honor code typically resulted in either a 1-year suspension, a 2-year suspension, or expulsion. It was taken very seriously.
Of course, it helped that at my university the venn diagram of things that are morally wrong and things punishable by the honor code is a circle.
So long as this is not true at the various BYU schools, the honor code will continue to be a souce of debate and students will continue to disregard parts of it as not really related to integrity.
HH: “Well the WOW is a commandment for one big item.” Of course we all know it wasn’t originally. As it says in D&C 89: 1-2: “A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint”
Violating honor code at most universities has zero to do with an arbitrary self-righteous dress code and everything to do with academics and not cheating. The only real exceptions to that are military schools that also carry a dress code. Equating dress codes with one’s integrity is problematic and counter-productive to living a Christian life. This version of Christianity says we need to protect the smug, self-righteous tattlers above all else. It’s toxic. When that’s how we go about modeling behavior, we groom a crop of Gladys Kravitzes and Dolores Umbridges. Who wants that to be the stereotypical Mormon?
This kind of legalistic policing also creates loophole seekers. Rather than acting with integrity and being Christian toward others, people just avoid getting caught in any of the stated wrong behaviors. Their hearts are far from God, even if their lips draw near.
Sorry it took me so long to reply!
(7) Erin: I agree with you that uniformity is ONE way a group strengthens itself. But a group can also be strengthened in diversity by overlooking differences and caring for each other regardless.
(8) I like the idea of Zion being filled with love and goodness for each other. I think that’s more of what I wanted to comment on. We are supposed to be building Zion, are we not? Zion means being one in heart and purpose. I would want to qualify that as everyone working to develop the ability to see each other as God sees us and treat each other accordingly. If that is the definition of Zion then we would have different goals/purposes for the honor code.
(10) yes they have different honor codes. No capris or shorts here, my friend. I remember working on BYUI campus and Pres. Bednar saying the Church Board of Ed loves Rexburg because they can get away with rules/things here that would never fly at the other institutions. I’m sure BYUH may have it’s own quirks. They call BYUI a disciple training center, which is another way of saying indoctrination camp . . . which isn’t bad if you support what they’re indoctrinating – I just disagree with how.
(11) John, I just meant that in my past 15 years from leaving Rexburg – it has surprised me that nonmormons (whichever group they belong to) have probably taught me more about living with integrity than I learned in Rexburg. And I left Rexburg thinking LDS had a pretty good corner on it.
(13) Rigel, I like your comparison, and it’s appropriate I suppose. But My questions really come down to using it to create Zion — and really, my definition of Zion is entirely different and this type of approach leads us farther from in, IMHO.
(15) Nate but don’t you think honor and integrity are more than just keeping your word? I think that’s a part of it, sure. And I don’t mind reminding students “keeping your word is very important – it develops integrity. You want to be known as a person who honors their commitments.”
(16) HappyHubby, I agree; I keep the rules but also don’t think that means I can’t criticize them.
(17) I agree the Venn diagrams are off.
Whew, I guess the point of my post is more about Zion. I wanted it to be less about the rules and the Honor Code . . . but how they state they are using the honor code and for what purpose. I’ll tell you what if they think Zion is conformity get me a one way ticket on the way out of Dodge. We can be of one mind and one heart in following our Savior (purpose). To fill our lives with HIs love and serve others to help them feel His love.
I’m fine with having an honor code; sure I’d love to move the line a bit back from the edge and to a more moderate place on the spectrum . . . . BUT that’s a smaller problem than to me of the conflation of WHY we do it and Bro. Miyasaki’s whole “distracting from the unity needed to create Zion.” bit.
Okay W&T how about printing this then. Maybe an post that is positive about the Honor Code.
I know the honor code is a tired subject – but that Zion bit just ticks me off. How are we ever going to create Zion if we can’t even agree what it looks like?
robert60: “Okay W&T how about printing this then. Maybe an post that is positive about the Honor Code.” That would be a violation of my integrity.
“My questions really come down to using it to create Zion”
I see your point and agree that the reference to ‘distract from the unity to create Zion’ is rather ridiculous. Stepping back a bit, the whole use of the term Zion to refer to an exclusive place is problematic. I have watched Legacy and The Work and The Glory movies in the past 12 months, and when they speak of Zion, it smacks of a mode of use that would better be de-emphasized. The definition of Zion should be inclusive. It should be reaching out to make others feel like they are loved by our Savior. While living an honor code is a principle of integrity, its application does not extend beyond the goals of maintaining campus image.
I’ve always seen the problem here being the assumption that an honour code for these educational institutions is tantamount to the honour code for the church. The murky distinction between the two is so dangerous and has infiltrated the church culture all the way over here to Australia. As previously mentioned in my OP in December about FSY, we are all a bit confused about what the church standard is over here. A recent stake dance invite stated the FSY standards as being the standard – as opposed to the FTSOY standard – which is NOT the same. The erroneous philosophical underpinning of creating the standard (future covenant makers, fear of sexual sin, creation of mechanical obedience etc) is so hard to “resist”.
So Kristine, you’re saying that Bro. Miyasaki is taking the name of Zion in vain? 🙂 Here we have this beautiful concept in our theology–a community of unity and love and discipleship, and someone dares to use it in a completely reductionist way to persuade kids (mostly girls) to wear what the men have decided they should wear.
I do think you’re right on the money–it’s not really about the honor code. (If you knew what you were getting into and chose BYUI, then sure, follow the stupid rules, while the rest of us will go to college somewhere else.) But the dress and grooming standards seep down and become stupid rules for the rest of us who didn’t sign anything. (Any one who doubts the seepage probably doesn’t have any teenagers in their home and hasn’t had a calling with the YW.)
Integrity and honor don’t really have anything to do with clothing, and neither does Zion. We do a disservice to our young people by teaching them that all these terms are interchangeable, and that they can satisfy the requirements of these concepts by wearing the “right” clothes.
You gave us your word at 18 that you would follow this rule we gave you, believing we spoke for God. Now, 2 years later you have learned, grown and questioned but that doesn’t matter-you gave us your word. Never mind how you’ve changed,or what you’ve learned about us; your integrity is on the line!
Three cheers for robert60!! #2 Hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray. The same for IDIAT. #3 Hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray. The same for Ojiisan. #12 Hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray. The same for flyingratman. #27 Hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray.
Since I am the number 1 fan favorite I have the bragging rights. The honor code wins again. I mean I really do love the Honor Code! I even had more votes than hacwkgirrl.
The rest of you——–I don’t know!——Think it out a little.
robert60:
I’m kind of used to zeros. I get kind of a mischievious happiness from it.
Thank you Rich for you vote, but why does #3, #12 and #27 get as many “Hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray”s as I do. Come on I am number one and I think Happy Hubby would agree. 🙂
Here is the thing, though: We are not the audience for the Scroll. He was directing his comments to students, over which he has stewardship. He might have said different things if he was being interviewed by the New York Times for an outside audience.
We now know that human brains do not mature much before age 25. It is a mark of maturity that the OP would look back at the college environment and see things differently. I have subscribed to the BYU New Speeches podcast for years, because there are some great talks. But sometimes I shake my head over what is said, and I remind myself that the speaker was prayfully preparing to speak to a specific young audience. I get to listen in, but I am not going to criticize the speaker for comments that aren’t directed to me.
The seepage issue raised by some is certainly a concern, but one I have not seen much of where I live.
FWIW, there is a dress code where I am employed, and in the public schools that my children have attended. (The latter seems more of a concern, since they didn’t choose to attend.)
And it should be noted that Zion has been a local experience. It was only the City of Enoch that was taken up. So if someone else wants to make their own version of Zion, it doesn’t particularly bother me. It’s not like BYUI is the only possible university available to LDS students. I do think that if you sign on, then following through is indeed part of integrity.
robert60:
“Thank you Rich for you vote, but why does #3, #12 and #27 get as many “Hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray, hip, hip hooray”s as I do. Come on I am number one and I think Happy Hubby would agree. :-)”
I wasn’t trying to grade you from first best to last best. I just loved everything all of you said. Keep up the good work, but I’ll let the hawk do the grading.