The Salt Lake City Police Department (SLCPD) recently posted about something that seems to be a trend in Utah, that I have heard about from others, but it doesn’t seem to be a thing where I live in AZ (thankfully!): the destruction of Pride flags hung outside residential homes.
In response to the SLCPD tweet, wow, were the haters out in full force! Cultural Hall did a compilation to save time, and I thought it would be interesting to look through these categorized replies:
- “Based.” This is a term that conservatives use to mean they have a firm conviction in an unpopular belief. The term is used as swagger, showing others that they are proud of their unpopular stance.
- References to Jussie Smollett. Smollett was indicted in 2019 for disorderly conduct for paying others to stage an anti-black hate crime so that he could claim victimhood and get attention.
- “They did nothing wrong.” Meaning, the “hate crime” as described by the SLCPD was fine and normal behavior.
- Hate crimes aren’t real. Those making this claim consider the idea of a “hate crime” to be part of leftist ideology, which they consider illegitimate.
- Free speech. Burning a Pride flag is “free speech,” ignoring the fact that these flags were other people’s private property. Yes, you can buy a Pride flag (or an American flag) and burn it. You just can’t burn someone else’s property, jackweed.
- What about the American flag? This is like the prior category but referencing the fact that conservatives disagree fundamentally with any effort to disrespect the American flag by burning it in protest or kneeling at an NFL game. There’s a bit of whataboutism with this comment.
- Get out. There’s the simplest response: queer people and their flags are not welcome. “These flags don’t belong in our neighborhood and neither do you.” (that’s a direct quote from one troll)
- Linking to Pedophilia. Unfortunately, I still know a few Mormons who buy into the conservative lie that queer people are either “groomers” or “pedophiles.” Twitter, run by the Transphobe in Chief, welcomes them. I was unexpectedly pleased several months ago that there was an OP in the Deseret News of all places in which the author told his fellow conservatives to knock it the hell off with this nonsense of calling everyone a “groomer” which is a real thing in and of itself. Of course, the fact that he wrote that means that it’s a narrative that’s caught on in the Church, the people who read that propagandist rag.
- Lionizing the vandals. Some are saying they are heroes for doing this: “Not all heroes wear capes.” (yes, actual quote)
- The gays did it. This is like the Smollett false flag narrative, but without referring to that specific incident. The claim is that it’s a false flag attempt to garner sympathy and stir up ire against conservatives, the “real victims.”
On a completely separate Twitter thread someone lamented that they were subject to neighbors hanging Pride flags for an entire month, when they claimed that we only had ONE day (July 4) for the American flag. I don’t know where they live, but in my neighborhood, tons of houses hang the American flag 365 days a year, and last I checked, there are also several other “flag” holidays: Memorial Day, Labor Day, Veteran’s Day, and *checks notes* FLAG Day.
Reading through these responses, my first thought was “Wow, Elon’s Twitter is awful,” and I stand by that. But my second thought was “This might be closer to the mainstream view at Church than my view is.” I hope that’s not true, but I also know that those who are still anti-LGBTQ feel emboldened to share those views openly at Church. I suspect the more reasonable folks just sit quietly and ignore the bigotry for the most part, or they leave the church or at least go inactive. But I am very discouraged by the most recent Pew stats that show only 26% of self-identified church members support gay marriage, unlike the 68% of the US that currently does.
Back in 2008, Arizona’s prop 102 was on the ballot proposing that marriage in the state be strictly defined to heterosexual pairings, and while I guessed at the time that there might be some Church members who agreed with that, I perceived our ward to be full of well-educated people not so easily swayed by what I saw as reductive strawman arguments (e.g. “What’s next? People marrying their dogs?”). When our then bishop (who was also from a back east like I was) put up a Prop 102 sign in their yard, I actually felt bad for him, assuming that he was forced to do it by the stake leadership (who were in turn forced by higher ups). I just figured he was going along with it out of obligation like so many were coerced into during California’s Prop 8 debacle, not doing it from sincere belief. By 2016, I had completely rethought my stance on this person’s politics and had to conclude that he was in fact a very committed, very far right conservative who probably did truly oppose gay rights and a host of other things I didn’t agree with him about. Let’s face it; I was naive. It wasn’t the first time, and it probably won’t be the last.
I have been pretty consistently disappointed by the willingness of my fellow Mormons to believe things like QAnon conspiracy theories, Matt Walsh claims, and the ugliest perspectives about LGBTQ people I have ever heard, things that are far worse (and convoluted) than I ever heard in my own unenlightened youthful days when “gay” was still used as a casual slur. At a recent get together, I overheard several Mormons discussing Target’s “wokeness” for selling trans swimwear which they erroneously claimed was for children; they talked about Target losing $100K a week due to being too “leftist.” This is the same group that fell for the Wayfair story a few years ago. I’ve had to conclude that they are the norm, and I’m the outlier. Of course I addressed their misinformation as I have in the past, but that doesn’t mean minds were changed.
**Before you comment, please check yourself. I will not tolerate anti-LGBTQ screeds or anything equating LGBTQ people with “grooming.” If you are so inclined, stick to the discussion questions instead.
- Do these comments sound like what Mormons you know believe?
- Have you seen this type of anti-LGBTQ vandalism where you live?
- Do you think Church leaders agree with these arguments? Provide sources.
- Who is more welcome at church: people who commit anti-LGBTQ hate crimes or those who are LGBTQ?
- What will it take to close the gap between Church members’ acceptance of gay marriage and acceptance levels outside of the Church?
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
My feeling is if they are going after pride flags and taking them down, then we also need to tear down these Confederate flags too.
The level of hate never ceases to amaze me that individuals (both in this church and other faiths) display. I’m talking about people who proclaim to be followers of Christ, people who regularly attend worship services, and people who read and quote scriptures. The disconnect between their actions and the principles of Christianity is astounding. It saddens me for many reasons, but a big one is they can’t see it. Their actions are in direct conflict with what they claim to believe. While certainly not true for everyone, my experience (East coast) is that too often, the more strident/vocal/intense an individual is about their Christianity, the more judgemental/hateful/intolerant they are with anyone who doesn’t check ‘their’ boxes. None of us are perfect and all of us are on a journey that hopefully is honing us into better individuals.
As far as the Church and church membership is concerned, unless every GC has talks (plural) devoted to love and acceptance toward LGBTQ members (and policy to back it up) instead of a steady diet of anti comments by Elder Oaks (and others), change with members who think it’s acceptable to burn their neighbors pride flags will be slow. Not sure how factual this is, but I recall when the priesthood was restored to all worthy males, there were some who supposedly left the church because of their racist views. The church previously fit because it also supported racist views and now it didn’t. These individuals did not want to be associated with a faith that accepted blacks as equal. When the church embraces their LGBTQ members, the same situation will exist. Either you will change your views (if still held) or you will leave because now the organization doesn’t share your beliefs. Right now, the church is a safe harbor for those who hate LGBTQ. No faith should be a safe harbor for hate.
Here’s a trend I’ve seen in our neighborhood in Sandy, Utah: most (not all) of the Pride flags are in front of non-LDS homes. And several LDS homes hang American flags not just on holidays but all June during Pride month.
I report, you interpret.
Do these comments sound like what Mormons you know believe?
Some of them, yes. I know way too many Mormons who are openly anti-LGBTQ. Kimballism is still alive and well in Utah. But it varies depending on who you’re looking at. Among mothers – especially among mothers of teens – there has been a sea change. I see a lot of support among the moms, even if they don’t feel like they can say it aloud – some moms are “quiet-quitting” the church over this and many other issues, and the church hasn’t noticed yet. However, there is still a significant and disturbing number of members who are openly hostile.
Have you seen this type of anti-LGBTQ vandalism where you live?
I have, but not as much in my part of Utah as seen around Salt Lake. This is mainly because next to nobody is hanging Pride flags out here.
Do you think Church leaders agree with these arguments? Provide sources.
While I think the top leaders would shy away from the most cruel arguments, I do think they agree more than the PR department will allow them to let on. You won’t see open statements from them that are anti-LGBTQ anymore these days, but they will be vague about what “loving” LGBTQ people actually looks like. We all know that they would not be in the position they are in today if they had not openly expressed support, if not total private agreement, with what other more strident church leaders taught about the LGBTQ community in the past.
Remember that Nelson has been a church leader for a very long time. He and many other top leaders are old enough that they were around and openly agreeing with the stuff church leaders were saying 40-50 years ago. Nelson was called to be General Sunday School President in 1971. I don’t need to remind anyone what the prophet was saying about LGBTQ people at that time and throughout the 80s. Remember that in Oct 2014 general conference he stated “Our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities. Our sustaining is an oath-like indication that we recognize their calling as a prophet to be legitimate and binding upon us.” You better believe he’s spent his whole life upholding “prophetic priorities” clear back to Kimball’s day. Oaks’ track record is against him and he’s been the most openly hostile – sources are easily find-able for him.
Who is more welcome at church: people who commit anti-LGBTQ hate crimes or those who are LGBTQ?
That’s a difficult question. Depends on the ward, and it can even depend on factions within wards. Generally at church you do not know who might have committed those crimes. You do know who is LGBTQ (openly, at least). In general however, people are more free to express anti-LGBTQ sentiments at church than they are to express support for the LGBTQ community (aside from a vague “we love them!”).
What will it take to close the gap between Church members’ acceptance of gay marriage and acceptance levels outside of the Church?
Time. It will simply take another 20-30 years. Like all other useful changes in the church, any change on this issue will come 30 years too late to do any good for anyone struggling today.
I’ve seen just about everything you’ve pointed out both in my community and in reading comments online, particularly in the Deseret News. You asked one question about leaders and asked for proof. I’m just going to say that I think the higher the leadership goes in the church it’s not that they believe a certain way it’s that they don’t say anything about it. For me the proof is the constant one step forward, two steps back with either something said in general conference and then walked back in the weeks following or the reporting of something the church has done and then general conference where it appears the opposite is preached.
This doesn’t have to do with LGBTQ but recently the first presidency had a letter read about being “non-partisan” in voting and not voting straight party tickets and that there is good in both parties. Yet, within a week there was another message from the Utah Area Presidency about celebrating in September Constitution Month with a curriculum put together from far right John Bircher, Cleon Skousen, Eagle Forum types of people. You could also look at the response of many in the church to wearing masks or getting vaccines even though the prophet directly suggested it.
Finally there are the constant references to right wing code words during testimony meetings. The subtle references to wokeness, or CRT, or someone’s agenda where their personal enlightened view has protected them from such evil. LGBTQ is just one topic where the same thing happens but right wing trolls have many more fearful enemies that they need to fight against and spread their hate.
Where I live, nobody dares hang a pride flag. People might not burn it, but they would hate you. The only flags you see are Trump 24, f *** Biden, Go Brandon, Don’t tread on me, Trump won, and other right wing crap. Oh, yeah, there are still campaign signs up for Ammon Bundy for governor. (Southeast Idaho)
I don’t go to church, but I have over heard very offensive conversations in restaurants and other public places and the locals are 90% LDS. We keep our mouths shut because no point in making enemies.
Honestly, I’m skeptical this vandalism came from members. I hate to look for a scapegoat, but I look at some of the words coming from my evangelical friends—who do have a presence in Utah—and those actions seem much more in the realm of possibility than they do from members I know.
I know of few people personally, if any, who would respond that way in the comments, even among my more outspoken conservative friends, both online and offline. Perhaps I’m just really good at picking my friends.
By the way, as a conservative, outside one or two conservative friends who felt they had to go out of their way to disavow QAnon, the only time I ever hear about the organization is here and on left-wing publications. That’s it. The constant framing of it as a prevalence and staple among conservative circles contributes to me believing conspiracy theories are just as much a part of left-wing thinking, but the left is much more skilled at framing their views as acceptable. QAnon may be an acceptable talking point for the left, but that doesn’t mean that’s what’s going on.
(Nearly totally unrelated side-note to be addressed for another possible thread: For a blog that touches upon nearly all things related to Mormonism or those things closely adjacent to it, I’m somewhat surprised “Sound of Freedom” hasn’t been touched upon yet. I’m curious as to some of the thoughts of the permabloggers, but the lack of response thus far is equally fascinating.)
Anna, it sounds like you’re living in hell. I’m so sorry for what it must be like to be surrounded by hatefulness.
I take it moving isn’t an option?
As an LDS Californian, I thought we were more enlightened in 2019. My mind has changed a lot since then. I struggle to continue to go, but I do it so that the LGBTQ youth who have no choice or the few that decide to stay once adults, know that they’re not alone and that there are people who want them around. I have refused to attend Sunday School for YEARS because of the inaccuracies or non sequitur comments made but now I think I need to start goin again to be the one to SAY SOMETHING.
Eli: I don’t know why your experience is different than what I’m hearing from LDS friends, but maybe more LDS women than men are susceptible to these QAnon conspiracy theories? One of these women literally gets her news from Instagram, which sounds like the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard, but there it is. I was shocked when they started believing this crap, but they haven’t stopped yet. It’s like whack-a-mole. Other friends (during the 2016 campaign) said with absolutely no irony that they believed Hillary had dozens of people killed. But far worse than the conspiracy minded folks are those who said they would always vote straight R to get the supreme court they wanted. So, eroding the rights of fellow citizens is their priority, as I see it, and that’s completely against my values.
While I don’t at all believe that Church leaders condone the destroying of other people’s LGBTQ flags, I think that they believe in 2 of your justifications for their treatment of LGTBQ people within the Church:
1. “Based”. Despite massive (and still rising quickly) acceptance of LGBTQ individuals among the general population and Church membership, Church leaders seem to continue to have a firm conviction that they continue to be correct that LGBTQ individuals are wrong or “confused” (see Oak’s recent fireside where he continues to refer to LGBTQ people as “confused”). Sometimes the minority opinion is the right opinion, so one should stick to their guns. However, this is not one of those cases–the Church’s stance towards LGBTQ individuals is simply incorrect. LGBTQ individuals are not “confused”, and they should have equal standing within the Church.
2. “Get out”. Church leaders have consistently (at least in the last few years) asked members to be considerate of LGBTQ individuals around them and even endorsed that LGBTQ rights be protected by law. However, the Church’s policy towards LGBTQ individuals in the Church is basically just “get out of our church”. There is simply currently no place in the Church for LGBTQ individuals.
We live in a heavily Mormon, very conservative part of the Mormon Corridor. Despite pretty consistent messaging at home about how my wife and I disagree with the Church’s stance on LGBTQ individuals and how we believe that LGBTQ individuals should be treated equally both inside and outside the Church, I have a son who started spouting anti-LGBTQ stuff while he was in high school. He picked this attitude up from his largely Mormon friends at school. My other kids said they were exposed to a lot of this stuff from their Mormon classmates, but they didn’t adopt it themselves and actually felt really badly about it. I’m not exactly sure if my one son’s friends picked up their beliefs at home or if they were just rebelling or what, but there was definitely a lot of anti-LGBTQ speech and behaviors at my kids’ high school. After a year at a non-Church college, my son had done a complete turnaround on his LGBTQ views and became very critical of the Church’s stance.
In my own ward, I’ve noticed a significant drop in anti-LGBTQ comments in church just in the last year or two. The same goes for far-right political comments as well. This could just be chance–maybe I was out of town on the weeks that these comments were made. That said, I do wonder if people in my ward have gotten the message that this sort of rhetoric isn’t accepting in church meetings? I know that there are a number of people who still embrace anti-LGBTQ and far-right political views based on conversations out of Church meetings, social media, etc., but this kind of talk in formal church meetings seems to have quieted a bit in my ward.
I live in a very predominantly LDS suburban community north of Salt Lake City. I have had fellow ward members make anti gay comments while sitting in my living room looking at a photo of our daughter and her wife. Our daughter is one of at least 3 young adults with ties to our ward who have been told by active LDS family members that their relatives want nothing to do with them because they are gay. One young man was told by his LDS bishop uncle that the uncle’s family would not attend family activities if the young man planned to be there. One of my neighbors bore a testimony earlier this summer about how angry he was when he was told he couldn’t worship God during the COVID shutdown. We regularly have racist, homophobic, and far right political comments in church meetings and lessons, though the commenters are so steeped in far right ideology that I think they genuinely don’t recognize that’s what they are saying. Another neighbor is one of the founding leaders of the Utah movement to ban books in school and public libraries, regularly publishing long lists of books and asking people to check if any of the titles are in any library they use. Our neighborhood has tons of pro-Trump and profanely anti-Biden yard signs and flags. My neighbors don’t talk about QAnon specifically, but they are actively promoting the movie Sound of Freedom which is at least QAnon adjacent. They may not identify as QAnon, but they accept QAnon beliefs as true. During election season, they sponsor neighborhood meetings to get to know and support far right candidates. In fact, my neighbors have occasionally been so extreme in their political activities that a candidate who could prosper from their activities has explicitly and public rejected their support. A former neighborhood family recently sold their house to move into an armed compound in an an undisclosed location somewhere on the Wasatch Back. Many have guns, explicitly to protect their emergency supplies during whatever coming catastrophe they expect. This is all coming from my active LDS neighbors, who are truly good, kind people with extreme beliefs.
Instereo, I do not live in Utah, so I have a different Area Presidency. Your president seems to send out a lot of letters (the one you mention, one asking old couples to serve 2 mission, and others). I do not know if my area president has issued a single one, ever, him or his predecessors in office. I hope that your area president doesn’t get reassigned to my area. I try to listen at general conference and to stake and local leaders, and I don’t need more people telling me what to do. I feel for your pain.
@Anna,
Gay guy here. Well…maybe someone should dare.
I get it. I really, really do. Being hated sucks. But isn’t that when standing up actually matters most?
If there’s a silver lining to this dark cloud of bigotry it’s that you learn who your real allies are. This isn’t meant to be a personal attack- as I can only comment upon what I read of the situation from your own commentary -but the reason why we celebrate pioneers in civil and other human rights is because they had the courage to weather the storm, act, and inspire generations to do likewise.
Who is my neighbour?
Wow.
“What will it take to close the gap between Church members’ acceptance of gay marriage and acceptance levels outside of the Church?” I think that this is oversimplified.
I am lucky to be in a mostly moderate but still very conservative pocket on the Wasatch Front in a 90%+ LDS neighborhood. There are only a few Q-anon and truly rabid anti-LGTB types in my ward, but maybe more are closeted because they sense push back on their truly nutty views. We are Democrats and can mostly get along. It wasn’t until well after our son stopped attending Church when he got sucked in to the Charlie Kirk et al. wasteland of angry white men. So my experience is that in Utah it is far worse among the non- or formerly LDS especially non-college-educated younger people. Also, I’d guess that if you compared the attitudes of UVU (50-80% LDS, fewer “orthodox” believers) vs BYU students (99% LDS and maybe 80% orthodox believers) about acceptance of same-sex marriage you would see that BYU students (on average) are probably further ahead.
Adding to my previous note:
Anna, I’m impressed and proud of you that you’re strong enough not to give in to the prevailing sentiments. That takes character as well as conviction!
Canadian dude, instead of doing things like fly a pride flag, which would make people angry and not teach them a thing, we do things that are more something that they will relate to rather than just going to set them off. So, while we don’t put up a flag, we do talk about our daughter and her wife. We talk about the sister in law who has transitioned to being a woman, and some of the struggles she faced. We humanize LGBT people as just people.
People here are not really hateful, but they can get that way if someone acts like an identified enemy. As PWS above said, they are kind loving people with extreme beliefs. So, the trick is to not anger them, but relate to them. They love their children, so my love for my daughter and her wife is something that they understand. They love the land here, so while I can’t talk about “global warming”, I can talk about pollution and how burning fossil fuels puts out pollution that is causing climate change, and how God made the earth for us but he isn’t going to clean up after our pollution. I have to be a human they can understand and relate to, not just some woke liberal who thinks they are uneducated country hicks.
And Alice, there are definite problems living here, and while the people can be narrow minded and get their beliefs from hateful people, they are good kind people, with beliefs way different than my own. Their life experiences are way different than mine, so my job isn’t to tell them their experience is wrong, but just to share my own experience and get them thinking that there is more in the world than they may have seen, and to be willing to learn from them in return.
But, yes, there are problems fitting in and we are probably too different than even my own cousins who live here to have friends just like us. We have had some “slap in the face” kind of experiences, but we have to back up and remember that people are people where ever you live and some are going to say horrible things out of ignorance. But then I have probably done the same.
“Every nation has the government it deserves,” the French writer and diplomat Joseph de Maistre declared in 1811. Since the primary function of government is to make laws, it follows that every nation has the laws it deserves.
The words of de Maistre are no less true today than they were in 1811. The reason we have a federal government that is running amok is because the great mass of the public has become lazy and indolent.
The great hordes have become too lazy to read, study, and think about the issues themselves. Indeed, the masses have rejected thinking and have exchanged it for mindlessly following talking heads. That has led to the polarization mentioned in the OP.
Is there any hope that the great hordes will reject idol worship and will seek to learn and think? Not as long as they dedicate their lives to seeking immediate gratification.
“Who is more welcome at church: people who commit anti-LGBTQ hate crimes or those who are LGBTQ?” In my Southern California community, it feels like the position is that church members will love the queer community from a safe distance. They are happy to support queer neighbors, but don’t want them in their personal lives.
Which means, we don’t feel welcome at church. Church experience can vary from being tolerated to being tokenized as being “nice” to that family with the queer kid. It genuinely sucks.
A few years ago the ward executive secretary gave a very vitriol-filled anti-LGBTQ talk in sacrament meeting. No one cut his mic. A few weeks later my wife was asked to speak and gave one of the most inclusive, loving, safe talks I have ever heard (while IMO gently calling out the talk given a few weeks earlier). That was in 2020. We haven’t been asked to speak in sacrament since. I think this speaks volumes about our community’s values.
“Have you seen this type of anti-LGBTQ vandalism where you live?” Thankfully no. With the bar in the Mormon corridor set that low, at least we appear to be better in this regard.
Like Anna, my family lives in a strongly “conservative” area in northern Nevada (I add quotes because the word conservative today no longer means what it used to mean).
Someone near and dear to our family recently came out as transgender, just to us. As a result our family has become super sensitive to comments against LGBTQ people made at church.
My 17 year old and 18 year old sons attend church with us. All of my 5 sons have been very pro LGBTQ for many years. Their respectful and persuasive efforts have prepared my husband and I, as conservative as we are/were, to be supportive to this friend of our family.
We have had repeated incidents at church which we have repeatedly confronted. First there was the temple prep class where they told my 18 year old that transgender people were one of the groups of people we couldn’t support. My son, husband and I met with the bishopric. They talked to the teacher, and stake leaders came and gave a talk about accepting different people, including queer people, into our ward community.
My sons attended YM camp last week and there was a talk explaining how the world is confusing what a man is and going on about the unique characteristics of a man (my son wasn’t convinced saying they all applied to many women as well). The stake leader went on explaining a man was a man before birth, after birth and after death and nothing else exists. My son was very concerned about 12 year old children in the audience who might be intersex or experiencing gender incongruence. I encouraged him to meet with the stake presidency and share his concerns. I sent them an email with links explaining intersex conditions and the church’s acknowledgement of gender incongruence as real and painful.
Haven’t heard back yet, but I imagine they would take my son more seriously than me whereas he is part of the patriarchy and not a woman to be patted on the head.
I don’t think members would burn a flag here, but my nonmember neighbors would. We don’t dare fly one. Never seen one flying in our neighborhood.
I have lived in several suburbs in the Dallas-Ft Worth area for many years. I have never, not even once, seen a Pride flag of any kind flown outside a residence, nor at any place of business. Not in June, not ever, and I’ve been watching for years, because of my friends who have said they see them all the time in their neighborhoods in Utah.
Provo area – we’ve flown a ProgPride flag for about a year, along with a US flag on holidays. We noticed a couple of other pride flags on our street after that, along with the couple of Trump flags that appear now and then. Not sure what that means.
@Anna
But why does flying a Pride flag anger them?
Should it?
I applaud the fact that you are relating the experience of 2slgbtq+ to those willing to listen to encourage them to be more accepting. I see no reason why this cannot be done concurrently with other practical and symbolic actions as well.
I would still argue however the your discourse still centres the ‘comfort’ of the privileged over the safety marginalized. Not everyone is going to want to listen. Not everyone is going to have their hearts softened. If we waited to show our nominal support until most people in our community didn’t become angry upon seeing a Pride Flag or parade- well, most affirming actions that signal broad community support/solidarity would never happen. Most civil and human rights movements in fact would’ve petered out if we were to waited for our colleagues, patrons, neighbours, relatives,- the church -to “receive revelation” that affirms our non-political and non-threatening status.
Research on the societal symbols of inclusion is largely supportive of the idea that these symbol encourage marginalized people’s feelings of safety and belonging, while signalling to the intolerant that discrimination will potentially bear societal and legal costs depending on its severity.
With as much gentleness as can be met by necessity: if a person is more worried about the offence caused to themselves or others by the presence or act of waving of a rainbow flag- that says more about their own fragility than anything inherently threatening or offensive about either the flag or those that wave em.
Whose rights, safety, and symbols of existence and affirmation get to be apolitical as opposed to ‘political’?
If you’re waiting for the US to be like Canada, well, I’ve got some bad news for ya. We still have people angry and sometimes violent towards Pride and Pride flags. We still have segments of the population that find equality and co-existence intolerable; people who become galvanized at each setback seen here and in the states that signals an appetite and room for discrimination.
Nobody **has** to wave a Pride flag to be an ally- but if a person’s reasons for not doing so is mainly to avoid “angering” people -well, that’s still mere allyship-in-embryo, unprepared yet for rainy days.
Take a deep breath. I’m not calling out you so much as I’m trying to call out the argument -the social constructs- that you’re (probably) unknowingly supporting here. It’s okay. As a social scientist my ideas also often get called out and in. But I also feel obligated to deconstruct some of the ideas here.
Keep doing what good you’re doing.
Understand though, that for many of us, we can’t as neatly choose with whom we engage on the subject of equality. We stick out. We have to pick a bathroom. We might be unable to afford or access gender-affirming therapy that’s convincing enough to allow us to ‘pass’. We go to pick up our kids at kindergarten or attend a school function as a couple, and there we are. Whether we’re Transgender, Intersex, Gay, Bisexual, Two-Spirited or more- we often lack the luxury of existing at the same level of authenticity and equality without ‘angering’ many people.
That’s why we need allies. Magnanimous people who have the ‘greatness of soul’ to stand with us whether it offends people or not.
Canadian Dude
Thank you for your reminder to us trying to be allies.
“If you claim to be someone’s ally, but aren’t getting hit by the stones thrown at them, you aren’t standing close enough.”
It takes time and bravery to grow as an ally.
Lws329: that down vote is supposed to be an up, but we hit a bump in the road.
Canadian Dude, thank you for engaging and even challenging me. See, I am one of those old fogies who grew up at a time when things like this were just not talked about, so I have to continually update my thinking.
So, let me explain where I am coming from on some of this. Part of it is my daughter. She is the kind of gay person who refuses to go to gay pride parades. I had a long talk with her about it and her philosophy is what I am trying to respect. She attended one gay pride parade and said that many were just trying to be as “in your face” about it as possible. Trans women going topless, public displays of affection that were blatantly obscene. She said they were doing it for shock value, not to get homohaters to be more tolerant. She said it was just confirming the negative opinion of the homophobes, that gays were evil and trying to recruit children. She said it didn’t accomplish understanding, just made people uncomfortable and angry and made things worse. She says the best approach is more friendly, more understanding of where they are coming from. Because it isn’t only about putting yourself out there, it is about changing minds.
So, would me flying a gay pride flag in Trump country help, or make things worse? It would not help with them understanding anything, any more than their F*** Biden flag helps me understand them. It just makes me think they are stupid, uneducated, bigoted, crude, swearing creeps. Now, a real conversation about why they support Trump has helped me understand other friends in other areas. One woman from Carbon County (carbon because of coal, major employer the local coal mines) Utah told me that Trump was going to bring back coal and saved all the jobs in her area. That I can understand. A Trump flag I don’t.
Their F Biden flag hurts their cause, not helps it. Their Trump flag is the same. I know what they stand for, but it does nothing to change my thinking. In fact, their flag hardens me toward them. I am less likely to really listen because I already know what they think and that I disagree.
So, yes, flying the pride flag would tell my neighbors what I stand for, but it doesn’t change their thinking. And I want to do more than let them know what I stand for. I want to change their thinking. Maybe just a tiny bit and maybe over ten years, but I want more than to just let them know where I stand. I want to influence them.
So, how does one influence people? You have to be seen as one of them first. So, first task, find things we have in common.
First task is not take a stand, which is what the flag does. It announces ahead of me about who I am and then they think they know all about me and won’t listen. So, first, I want to be seen as a friend, not the enemy. The flag tells them I am the enemy.
Now, if I still lived in the Salt Lake Valley, my pride flag would be out. There it is more about standing up and being counted and letting everyone know where I stand.
But small town Idaho, where your average neighbor has never been to a big city, has never met people from other cultures, has never been the only one who even speaks English, it is just different. They are afraid of “outsiders” and I am an outsider. So, I can label myself an outsider, a woke libral, or I can try to be their friend so that eventually I might challenge their thinking.
Pick your battle. Stand up and be counted, or change people’s minds.
We have an lgbtq child. We stopped going to church a little over a year ago. Church doesn’t come close to meeting my standard for love and inclusion. There is a family in my ward who kicked their gay child out. They are open and proud about this action. They continued to hold leadership callings in the youth programs. That’s a major problem. So yes the anti-lgbtq crowd is accepted and in some ways more welcome in my ward. Interestingly, outside of the church building, my family is more included in social situations than the anti-lgbtq members. We and our children are more likely to be invited to parties, trips, and fun events by church people who hold social power. I guess we are more fun or easier to be around. I’m not sure. I’ve recently decided to put up some boundaries on this. In addition, we have flown a Pride flag and it has been torn down and our home vandalized 3 times. Now we need to put up cameras before hanging the Pride flag again. I dread finding out who is vandalizing our home. I have seen other Mama Dragons discuss buying 10+ flags to make it through June in Utah.
@Anna
I keep hearing a “but”.
I cannot comment much on the lewdness you mentioned, because all that you’ve shared is that there was obscenity- but without any details for us to determine such for ourselves..
I agree that social constructs are always in negotiation, and that consent is important. I’m not however certain that baring one’s breasts is inherently obscene. There’s nothing explicitly sexual about their function. Swimming pools in my Canadian province recently changed the rules to allow women to go topless. Good for them.
Consent is important. A friend once witnessed at Pride some people shouting “show your t**ties for Pride” with a girl being accused of being a ‘bigot’ because she wouldn’t.
Two thing:
1) Wanting/not wanting to expose any part of your body has literally nothing to do with allyship nor ‘being’ 2slgbtq+
2) The name-calling idiots in question do not actually represent my community, nor the intellectual/ethical arguments that (actually) affirms our societal equality and affirmation. Such trollsters need to deconstruct and change a lot harmful thinking/behaviour.
I feel comfortable calling such people out regardless of their queer/supposedly-‘Ally’ status **and** show visible signs of affirmation such as attend Pride parades and wave Pride flags. It’s not an either/or situation.
~
To add some complexity though, I agree that not every queer event is going to match every person’s tastes.
That’s okay. My argument was more inline with @ lws329‘s comment that for allyship to be non-performative, it must be willing to take risks and centre the rights, wellbeing and autonomy of the marginalized.
~
Ya’ll also don’t have to attend every Pride event or (as I said before) even hang a Pride flag- but it’s the “why” and “why not” that matters.
Your arguments so far centre the safety and comfort of the neighbours who would take offence to the flag (or any visible sign of allyship) over and above the neighbours who might be comforted by it as a source of affirmation, safety, and security.
Which of these two kinds of neighbours are more marginalized?
Which of these neighbours are in need of greater rehabilitation for their reaction to symbols of 2slgbtq+ acceptance?
~
Who is you neighbour? What does it mean to be a neighbour? An ally?
If there’s a Jesus worth worshipping and a disciple worth taking seriously- then it’s the Jesus and the disciple who is willing to be ‘a stone of stumbling’ and ‘a rock of offence’ on behalf of the most marginalized and discriminated against in society.
I can’t weigh the scales of your character @Anna. You might be downplaying what allyship you’ve got right and accidentally exaggerating whatever needs rehabilitation. Who’s to say? Not me. Some of the arguments you thus far shared need to be deconstructed a bit more though.
I saw her en route to Jericho, having fallen among some thieves. I tarried not long to bind her wounds. My mates were expecting me.
Her raiment taken from her. Her ‘ungird-loins’ laid bare. I did at least cover up her shame so travellers’ eyes be spared.
And this I think great charity, to both her and the ‘holy men’ you see- Who’d pass on by traumatized, unsure if ‘she’ was ‘he’.
Nor would I pour both oil and wine, lest anger cause to be bourne- that I a ‘respected Samaritan’ did choke the road e’en more.
So I dragged her off the beaten path, and gave her water bare. Then hurried to my estranged friends. Their warmth is rarely shared.
To compensate my nuisance, I payed innkeepers’ fee; drinks for them, then my own ‘fore talk of roads and thieves. “He brought it ‘pon himself” they said “dressed like a common whore.” I did not ask just how they knew, the case of her before.
Nor did I ask why the loud friend held, ripped skirt as trophy laboured. For I myself do not believe, in troubling my neighbours.
Can the poem I just wrote be deleted?
I have a feeling that I should make sure to copyright it before sharing it all-vulnerable-like.
Apparently there was a Utah couple who made and hoisted a flag of the Family Proclamation last month.
PS my Utah ward seems fairly accepting based on certain situations in our midst but an occasional newcomer might spout off with some intolerant crap. When I teach the adults in Sunday School I try to keep it real and recently I shared this quote from Elder Renlund Gen Conf Oct 2020-
(Jesus Christ) did denounce those who faulted Him for ministering to people they deemed unworthy. To be Christlike, a person manifests compassion for others, especially for those who are less fortunate; they are gracious, kind, and honorable. These individuals treat everyone with love and understanding, regardless of characteristics such as race, gender, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, and tribal, clan, or national differences. These are superseded by Christlike love.
@Canadian Dude
I’m in Canada too and I applaud Anna’s approach as being very appropriate for where she lives. It’s just a totally different scene from up here even though we do see some bandwagon type splash these days from all the noise coming out of the US, particularly on transgender and other LGBTQ+ issues. That’s all very disheartening but in general I think the climate on the subject is a lot more settled in Canada with same sex marriage for over 20 years and that’s not going to change. The same with women having far more autonomy on decision for their bodies and on reproductive issues. Recognizing that like the US we do see more polarization happening in recent years on certain political issues and it’s discouraging to see a few LDS a friends share FB memes of the worst type of US right wing thinking. However, I thankfully don’t hear a lot of homophobic or patriarchal crap in my ward or stake, though confess I don’t attend classes, only sacrament meeting. I do know that the leadership of our particular ward and stake hold very inclusive views even if they can’t effect policy. However, for the church as a whole I don’t think it’s enough and why I’m firmly PIMO but I do what I can to show that I’m an ally and made a commitment to wear rainbow jewelry when I attend. It’s been encouraging to see a few others on lapels etc too. I’d fly a flag but live in an area where no one would see it but I do have a rainbow doormat. Thanks IKEA. My daughter and US veteran husband fly a large pride flag for the whole month of June in Lehi UT and tells me she sees more and more every year so that’s encouraging. They’ve never had any pushback on it.
Thank you Canadian Dude.
Canadian Dude, I think you are imagining the “but” as coming from me, because I am just telling you how and why I deal with the people in my neighborhood. No “but” involved. I feel it is the right approach, and my only question is how to express it to you.
But I wondered, is it possible you are feeling “but….” Because you would like that pride flag that tells you I am safe. Could you be saying, “what about how I feel as a gay person. Shouldn’t I be able to see a flag on your porch and know that I am safe being friendly to you?” It would make things easier for you. Just a question.
Your response does tell me that you are misunderstanding my whole purpose. My purpose is not to keep my bigoted neighbors comfortable. Not at all. If offending them was the best way to get them to really question their beliefs, then I would be most happy to offend them. But in my experience, when you offend people, or do anything that makes them defensive, they dig into their beliefs even harder. Ever try to get a TBM to question Mormonism? All it does is strengthen their testimony. Your challenge convinces them they are *right*.
My purpose is not to keep them comfortable but to convert them away from their bigotry. Now, how do Mormon missionaries act in order to convert someone to Mormonism? They are taught to be polite, kind, and not to purposely offend. Get your foot in the door so you can at least talk to people because you have to get them to listen to you before you are going to teach them anything.
But, I hear your question about LGBT people and do they feel comfortable talking to me. So, I asked my husband and he just laughed and said, “the same kindness that we use to get the bigots to think of us as a friend works on non-bigots and gay people. When you treat sinners as Jesus did, they trust you to love them not judge them. And when you treat gay people as Jesus would, they trust you to love them even if they are gay.” Then he said, “have you ever had a problem with gay people coming out to you?”
Well, see, I was a social worker for years and we are taught to develop a relationship with the client. We are taught to listen to them and meet them where they are. Not announce who *we* are first. So, possibly I am applying professional training to my neighbors. But only once, when one of my client heard I was Mormon and let her fear of Mormons get in the road of our established relationship was anyone of my clients ever afraid to come out to me. And then, the others in the support group told her she was being silly because I wasn’t THAT kind of Mormon. And my niece came out to my husband and I as a teen before any other adult at all. Even back when I was in high school in 1969, my gay friend came out to me as the only one at all he trusted not to judge him. So, no, I have never had real trouble with LGBT people thinking I am safe. Because I treat them as full people and I am kind and I listen to them, without judging them. At least I try. And when I do miss the following Jesus example and judge, say my bigoted neighbors, well I bite my tongue and look for the good in them and back myself off that judgement. Hard at times, but how else are we supposed to love people as Jesus would?
So, is everybody here “woke” to some degree? It seems to me that the blogpost assumes this when, as you know, the country is divided.
What you mean “we,” kimo-wojak?
The Puritans,, who hung Quakers and women as witches, were good kind people. I am so over good kind people.
Hello @Anna,
Sorry for the delay. I believe I understand what you are saying, and agree that explaining as opposed to call-out out is often the most persuasive, but I’m just having difficulty understanding why the presence of a Pride Flag, or any other visible symbols of support need be interpreted by your contacts as a fallout or designation of your being their enemy.
I don’t have enough details nor knowledge of your circumstance to determine with any certainty, whether your innovation leans towards appeasement or practicality. I can be a bit forward at times, and I definitely feel some unease at the underlying arguments supporting said innovation-
-But only you know the full context of your case, and some of these details (unknown to me) might better legitimate your individual approach.
I’m just one gay dude with an argument and a concern- and am not a perfect, nor all-knowing arbiter of how best to be an ally.
What I do know though is that being an ally requires being willing and engaged in taking (calculated) risks on behalf of the marginalized that could incur some social, financial, institutional- sometimes even physical costs.
~
There’s this thing called ‘tone-policing’ that I sometimes fall into, wherein marginalized communities are sometimes framed by those more privileged as trying to achieve equality or equity too forcefully; too emotionally; un-strategically; or with too much ‘gaudiness’.
These kind of arguments often fall into the trap of undercutting an argument upon the basis of ‘tone’, while ignoring or remaining (too) noncommittal towards the proponent’s actual and overall argument(s).
This isn’t to say that ‘tone’ nor ‘means’ don’t matter for ( in terms of anecdotal evidence) we have many a’ Revolution (such as in France before, during, and after the ‘Reign of Terror’) to suggest otherwise.
Rather, what I’m saying is if the offences incurred by (mostly nonviolent) bigots is likewise (for the most part below) the threshold of violence as well- we should be (extra) cautious that our criticisms are more sharply pointed at those whose harms and systems of of oppression are greatest.
And that’s sometimes a difficult thing to determine. Looks at the (non-mythicized) events of Stonewall. The ‘hard-sayings’ of Martin Luther King Jr. ; rise of Nelson Mandela, and Indigenous Rights movements up here in Canada.
The tension within progressive social movements is that many (if not most) of the societal advances achieved were not acquired with full and total support of the privileged.
-at least not at first.
A prospective-ally’s strict avoidance of conflict, offence, or confrontation therefore is likely to have mixed success in those circumstances where an oppressor refuses to rehabilitate themselves and reform their system.
Afterall- if the interests and values of the marginalized were non-controversial already there wouldn’t be a need for allyship anyway.
~
Some risks are admittedly however too great, and in some places of the world a prospective ally is in as much danger as a gender or sexual minority. Being strategic is okay so long as one is honest with themselves about the underlying motivations for their particular strategies. I’m not expecting nor wishing for martyrs, but I also don’t see flying a rainbow flag as akin to to ‘lining up str8 people and guillotining them’.
That would be horrible, and I also know you’re not making such comparison- but the example is meant to demonstrate how sometimes we over-exaggerate the cost bourn by the already privileged and powerful relative to the harms experienced by the marginalized by remaining too uncritical of the status quo.
That was a long post, but I hope it better explains my concern(s).
~
Ultimately, you are the agent in the aforementioned case you’ve shared. I might grant an opinion, based upon the knowledge available to me, but only you can decide if it’s convincing and worthy of merit.
If for whatever reasoning you believe that my arguments are ill-informed or unpersuasive- so be it. That’s perfectly normal and okay.
Random strangers on the internet should not be one’s primary, and most important source of legitimation or illegitimation for an argument.
Wrestle with the idea. Use what evidence, and framework(s) of ethics, epistemology, ontology (and more) that best helps you find resolution to the problem in mind.
Mormons and post-Mormons often have problems with scrupulosity- and seeking/doing the ‘best’ or most ‘correct’ thing.
But we’re human, don’t know everything, and are fallible- so just (continue) doing your best and roll with it.
The poem I shared was also not meant to be directed at you but at elements of the argument I was uncomfortable with. I acknowledge that I’m still editing it for appropriateness and composition.
Canadian Dude, I have enjoyed your thoughts. And it is hard sometimes to know when someone with extreme beliefs is worth trying to teach and when we should just write them off as a lost cause and be rude. I admit I have done both. I cut my brother pretty much out of my life because his wife was just too much of a homophobe. She was not teachable. So, I have stood up to people,
And I do understand why you question why just a flag would be a problem, but it is small town mentality. My husband was disinvited to church, because as an outsider, he “belongs” in the tourist ward, not the local ward. Even though we are residents and not tourists, they don’t want him in their ward because he is not born and raised here and he isn’t a farmer. If you can wrap your head around that kind of thinking…yeah, I can’t either. So, I don’t know how to explain, I just know that some things trigger their extreme thinking. And if I am going to get in a row with someone, I want it to be over something more important than a flag. There are more important battles, like how they treat people.
I live in the same area as Anna, and over the past few years I’ve worked in a professional setting with quite a few local members of the LGBT community. Some of them I’ve worked with very closely. Most of them, and especially most over the age of 35, keep their identity hidden from most of those around them. Sometimes they go to extreme lengths to do so–like maintaining separate homes from their partners, etc. just so their co-workers don’t find out. Things might be getting better, and the younger generation is more open about it, but then again the younger generation is much more likely to just leave the area and go somewhere that’s more accepting.
I’ve gotten into arguments at church with homophobes. They’re the majority here, and they’re extreme. I had an EQP who hated me and actively tried to drive me away from church attendance, likely because I pushed back against some of the politic and homophobic stuff he and others brought to church. I’m not sure of the wisdom of flying a pride flag right across the street from my neighbor with the 3% decals on his truck, my other neighbor with a blue line punisher decal on his truck, and my third neighbor who flies a Trump flag 24/7. Their politics are acceptable in this community. As I’ve learned from my experience in my ward, my politics aren’t acceptable here. So I pick my battles, the biggest of which is refusing to leave. And I do what I can to support those who need support, but in different ways.
Nobody wants rocks thrown at them. So as long as they’re not chucked at me, I’ll mute my criticism. If nobodies lookin’, I might supply some bandages to those buried under the rockpile.
I do understand the need to stay safe. And providing safe space to those who can’t hide is a good and necessary action.
But, dammit. a person shouldn’t have to hide. A closet can be a safe space, but it is also soul destroying. People need to be free to be themselves while skipping down the street.
When it comes to the Xmen, I’m on team Magneto. Don’t think much of a misnamed secluded school teaching kids to be presentable and respectable. Gay liberation advanced because of Stonewall, Compton’s, Black Cat– All Riots by the unrespectable, People who were not “the good ones”, but Humans who deserved not to be target practice just because they breathed.
As for what it will take to close the gap between church members and ordinary decency, maybe 20 years (I’m dubious)
Recently watched an episode of Star Trek Strange New Worlds, “Ad Astra Per Aspera” It’s a court-martial episode and ranks up there with “Measure of a Man” from TNG. The exemplary First officer of the enterprise is on trial because she didn’t want to hide anymore she was Illyrain and wanted her crew to see her for who she really was. As a line in the episode states, “Starfleet is not a perfect organization, but it strives to be.” Too bad the church doesn’t strive to be
I can’t imagine the stress of living in in the community Anna and Tim describe. I assume that putting solar panels on your roof, or buying a european car, or even worse a tesla would also signal your unacceptable behaviour. There seems to be a whole culture of which homophobia is only part.
That this is a mormon community is very sad, and embarrasing.
Are there redeeming features, and could those be found without the right wing bigots? I can’t imagine there are. Perhaps living there it feels normal, but there is a much less depressing world out here, even in Canada, or California?
>> Do these comments sound like what Mormons you know believe?
Alas, yes. I remember discussing same-sex marriage at a ward picnic right after Obergefell. One ward member was so disgusted by gay people and another couldn’t even bring himself to say the word “homosexual”
>> What will it take to close the gap between Church members’ acceptance of gay marriage and acceptance levels outside of the Church?
They need to get to know more LGBT people as people. Also more kids feeling comfortable coming out will help too. (Unfortunately this will also lead to many broken homes. But let’s be honest, homes that kick out their gay kids for coming out are already broken; this just reveals how broken they really are.)
This conversation is a good reminder to me that being a visible ally requires privilege. In my community and profession, I have the privilege to be a visible ally. At church, I do not.
Privilege though…
…isn’t it like power, and therefore relative?
That (actually ‘good’ and) parabolic Samaritan- (not the fake one in my poem) walking the road between Jerusalem and Jericho would not (as a hated minority themself) normally have more relative power than the man who went down to Jerusalem. But the latter fell among thieves.
This is where ‘intersectionality’ comes in, and, just like before I’m unconfident that there’s an easy calculus to determine the appropriate level of risk per the privileges enjoyed. I do wish to advocate for risk-taking and the willingness to engage in conflict occasionally however.
The ‘Prince of Peace’
‘Contention is of the Devil’
‘Stay in the boat’
We are/were continually warned as individuals and as people against ideas of conflict and contradiction.
But there’s a cost to peace. Even peace by degrees. Finding the right balance between both active subversion and boarding-up ‘Helm’s Deep’ is going to always be difficult, but I keep sensing tension rising up my spine as I consider the arguments laid so far.
Fighting oppression will always require some level of active risk taking, a blunt- if occasional retort of cold & clear ethics and reason.
I think it funny that often the people who think they love and know- the ‘Hard Saying’s of Jesus -bear in reality a greater likeness to the institutions and figures that the biblical Jesus was actually most annoyed with.
So yes, pick your battles- just be clear as to the underlying motivations as to why, and the potential outcomes -good and bad- that can come also from being too invisible.
At the same time- don’t let the paralysis of not knowing or understanding the ‘best’ approach/balance stop one from doing good or better.
Again- I too feel ‘scrupulosity-madness’ at times…
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
*confrontation
Not ‘contradiction’
Words. ☕️
Canadian Dude,
Sometimes making peace requires confronting evil . This confrontation may require conflict, which may be confused with contention, however it is absolutely necessary in making peace. There is NO PEACE in excluding and condemning people from their community because of differences that are essentially congenital characteristics. Sin and repentance requires choice.
The trick is determining when and how to enter into confrontation. There’s no point when it simply hardens others into their original positions.
With Anna, I watch for times to confront, and times to watch for opportunities to educate. Never imagine that people like me are not standing bravely trying to change our communities bit by bit.
My impression is that gay marriage is settled/accepted in Australia, so I assumed the numbers in US must be less for those accepting it; but both Aus and US are 71%. I expect Canada is at least as high, having been legal for longer.
The difference is that the 29% are quieter here or perhaps I don’t have to associate with them, and because mormons are so thin on the ground they don’t feel so willing to out themselves as bigots. It is sad and unchristlike that when there are sufficient mormons together they are mostly bigots, along with the leaders.
But it is reassuring that more than 70% of non mormons are accepting.
@lws329
Am I “excluding and condemning people from their community because of differences that are essentially congenital characteristics?”
If I am- where?
I 100% support Transgender people. They are part of our community.
My poem was essentially what the Parable of the Good Samaritan would be if he was an ‘ally” like some contemporary allies who like to claim the title, but lack the magnanimity to stand up and take risks.
I ask that anyone thinking otherwise reread the poem. I’m working to make the irony a lil clearer, but the Samaritan in my poem wasn’t good. He thought he was, but he did the absolute bare minimum to help the transgender women that fell among thieves, as we he was too busy trying to appease the very ‘neighbours’ that robbed her in the first place.
The poem features an unreliable narrator whose own allyship is marked by subtle constructs of prejudice and a preference for protecting and serving the interests of his neighbours at the end of the poem than she who needed him more urgently and with deeper care.
She is (and should be considered) just as human (and I would argue in greater need his protection) as the friends whose inhumane treatment demands nothing short of boldness.
None of my comments so far would be at all coherent if I was arguing against Transgender rights, and in all of my mentions of my community I’m pretty clear: They. Belong.
They are the most vulnerable today.
The poem is about a man who thinks he’s charitable- and sure, he does some good, but he doesn’t truly stick up for the real victim or care about her- regardless of his (at least) use of her preferred pronouns.
~
I realize the poem is confusing. I asked for it to be taken down because I feared it could be confusing. I already stated in my previous posts that the Samaritan (in the poem) was not a good man.
I have also already spoken at length with @Anna about my concerns and have already acknowledged and addressed many of the points you make about the need for balance. My concerns remain valid though that allyship often becomes pusillanimous when it gets costlier for the allies, and progress often requires declarations of thunder from the soul, consequences for those calling for and carrying out (in some places quite literally) my 2SLGBTQ+ community.
~
Finally- it is **never** ANY allies place to tell a member of a marginalized community that they are not allowed to doubt any ally’s commitment.
That’s a particularly dangerous attempt at controlling the breadth and depth of scholarly questioning. Thinking. The sovereignty of one’s soul to search for truth.
I am always allowed to imagine. To doubt. So too are you. I have already been quite clear that I’m open to the idea that I could be wrong or overzealous- but I will not be tone policed, nor accused of harbouring prejudice where I know that I don’t, and have the evidence to support that fact.
The above poetic (not the parabolic) ‘Samaritan’ is a fraud.
Typo. I have adhd and really struggle with words. Bear with me:
*Consequences for those calling for and carrying out (in some places quite literally) my 2SLGBTQ+ community’s *destruction.
I get it. I get worked up and struggle with written expression. But some of the thumbs up tells me that not everyone was confused at what I was trying to say.
I am slow of speech. But too many of my Aaron’s loose interest when raising queer arms gets tiring, and the Egyptians are prepp’in ‘Musket-fire’ for apostolic delight.
Canadian Dude,
I sorry if my comment confused you.
I was trying to express my total support for LGBTQ people. There is a transgender person close to me that isn’t safe in my community. I confront people in my ward, stake and family almost daily. I loved your poem. Apparently you understand my comment the opposite that I intended.
I was trying to say that you are not alone. ❤️
So sorry for any distress I caused by expressing myself poorly. I believe LGBTQ issues are typically something a person is born with. As such it cannot be seen as a sin because sin is based on choice not on who you are. I believe the church and our whole society in error in how they handle these issues. I hope you can have more peace and support on this. My comments were intended to support, not oppose.
@lws329
Aye. Same to you.