It’s one of those complex competencies we acquire over the years as we move through childhood to the teenage years to full-blown adulthood: When to do what you are told and when to oppose or resist a directive. Let’s focus on the endgame here and think about adult scenarios. Lots of people and institutions tell you to do things. Some of them have the authority to issue commands or directives, others don’t. Those that have some sort of legitimate authority may issue lawful or reasonable directives, but may also sometimes exceed those limits. Scenarios can run from the trivial to serious life and death confrontations. It’s a topic worth discussing.
Here’s how it came up. At the library, I ran across a book titled Humankind: A Hopeful History (Little, Brown and Co., 2019). I figured that with so many things going wrong with the country the last few years, I could use an upbeat treatment of history. It’s nice to think that deep down, most humans are kind and considerate and compassionate, and that there is some hope for the human race. Halfway through it, I think the book accomplishes that to some degree, although it’s possible that a second edition will add an extra chapter titled “What Went Wrong in 2020: How Everything Blew Up and Everyone Got Angry About Something.”
A Shocking Experiment
Writing a book claiming that people are, on the whole, a lot nicer and kinder than is generally portrayed in the media and in our culture, the author (Rutger Bregman, a Dutch historian; my copy is an English translation) needed to confront and debunk a few events and episodes. One of them is the classic shock machine experiment run by Stanley Milgram, a young Yale professor of psychology, in 1961. You’ve all heard about it before and you can read a good summary at Wikipedia. It is often held out as some sort proof that people will rather mindlessly submit to authority, in this case a fellow in a lab coat telling a volunteer to push a button administering increasingly painful shocks to a subject in the next room when the subject gives a wrong answer to one in a series of questions. The volunteers thought they were helping with a learning experiment. In fact, they were the experiment.
The published results were held out as supporting the idea that people will pretty much do what they are told by an authority figure, even when it seems wrong or even when it appears to be almost inhumane. The problem is that the published account misrepresented some of the results and presented what appears to be skewed conclusions. The archived data from the experiment became available a few years ago, and they show that many volunteers resisted the directives quite vigorously. Here’s from the Wikipedia page:
In 2012 Australian psychologist Gina Perry investigated Milgram’s data and writings and concluded that Milgram had manipulated the results, and that there was a “troubling mismatch between (published) descriptions of the experiment and evidence of what actually transpired.” She wrote that “only half of the people who undertook the experiment fully believed it was real and of those, 66% disobeyed the experimenter”.
Now others have replicated the Milgram experiment in various guises, and there is some validity to the results. But the bottom line is this: It’s not like 99% of us mindlessly follow orders, even questionable orders. Some people will follow questionable directives, others will resist. Some people will accept commands from a questionable authority figure, others will demur. Here is what seems like the most interesting issue raised by the experiment: Who obeys and who resists? What explains those choices? Here’s a paragraph from page 175 of the book:
In 2015, psychologist Matthew Hollander reviewed the taped recordings of 117 sessions at Milgram’s shock machine. After extensive analysis, he discovered a pattern. The subjects who managed to halt the experiment used three tactics:
1. Talk to the victim.
2. Remind the man in the grey lab coat of his responsibility.
3. Repeatedly refuse to continue.
So resistance is not futile, and there is your template for how to resist.
Choose Your Battles
You can probably see where this is heading, but let’s curb out enthusiasm a bit. Resistance and rebellion should not be our first reaction to any directive. That’s sort of the teenage rebellion model, and most of us grow out of that phase. There is no point or purpose for walking into the library, point to the “please speak quietly” sign, and shout, “NO! I WILL TALK AS LOUD AS I WANT!” A lot of directives and commands are just how we, as a society or a company or a team or a church, manage interactions and help everyone follow a set of reasonably fair rules. But not all rules are fair and not all commands are legitimate or defensible. Some commands or directives should be resisted. Even in the military, unlawful orders do not need to be followed and in some cases should be assertively resisted.
Now we could talk about this in a variety of scenarios: When can you or should you disregard or flat out object to a directive from a supervisor or boss at work? When can you or should you disregard or flat out object to a request from a parent, a neighbor, a store manager, or a librarian? (Just as an aside, have you ever noticed how the loudest people in the library are generally the librarians?) But we’re going to focus on church scenarios: The EQP or the Bishop or the Area Authority or a visiting GA or a letter from the FP.
Choose Your Mormon Battles
Lots of men claim authority in the Church, to tell you what you should or shouldn’t do in a wide variety of spheres. Let’s try to pinpoint a few particular issues in this Mormon context.
Too much obedience. At all levels, there seems to be too much emphasis on obedience, without any caveats. As noted, even the military recognizes the difference between lawful and unlawful orders. But in the Church one often hears the very questionable claim that one *should* follow a questionable or clearly wrong directive from a priesthood leader, as if that is somehow a praiseworthy choice rather than a questionable one. And there is also the problem that only organizations that routinely issue questionable directives need to spend so much time dwelling on the duty to obey every order.
Inflated scope. At all levels, the men exercising authority within the Church seem to have an exaggerated sense of how far that authority reaches. That sense tends to be reinforced by anxious rank and file Mormons who go to their bishop with every problem and seek counsel on a variety of issues having nothing to do with the Church. Once in a while leadership will push back on this, encouraging a little more autonomy in the membership, but not often. Anecdotal (but not necessarily unreliable) accounts of such overreach are often about a bishop who disciplines, in one way or another, a member about a social media post or a fashion choice or a picnic on Sunday or whatever. But the issue exists at almost every level in the Church. It’s an issue because reasonable limits to one’s authority within the Church is almost never addressed. Some leaders probably reject the idea there is any limit to their authority.
Too much conformity. I’m not sure how to describe this one. There’s often an all-or-nothing view of one’s standing in the Church, so if you tell the bishop “actually, I’m going to stick with blue shirts, not white ones,” your score drops from 98 to zero. Or maybe it’s that there are few avenues for complaint or feedback. There is no LDS suggestion box. There is no LDS challenge flag for a bad call. Even constructive feedback or helpful suggestions are likely viewed as simply negative criticism. Or maybe it’s the mismatch between thinking big and acting small. Talking like the Church is God’s Kingdom which will fill the earth and bless all its inhabitants, but acting like what really matters is a drawing lots of lines and using them to push lots of people outside the shrinking Mormon tent. Is this a vision thing? Is it too much bureaucracy and too many rules? Is it confusing righteousness with conformity, as though it only comes in one flavor? Is it too much top-down thinking?
It’s a complicated topic, and I probably haven’t done a great job outlining the issue or showing how it manifests inside Mormonism. Perhaps some examples, or possibly counter-examples, shared by readers will clarify things.
This post identifies a crucial issue for young people: which authority figures are worth listening to in society? This is an issue that requires careful consideration.
“Every nation has the government it deserves,” the French writer and diplomat Joseph de Maistre declared in 1811. Since the primary function of government is to make laws, it follows that every nation has the laws it deserves.
The words of de Maistre are no less true today than they were in 1811. The reason bad leaders are flourishing today is because the great mass of the public has become lazy and indolent. Indeed, the masses have rejected self-sufficiency and self-reliance and instead, have devoted their lives to seeking immediate gratification.
Sadly, this is not just an issue with government. Many young members of the Church are listening to those outside authorized leadership structures who want to lead by attacking moral values. Far too many are captivated by the call to abandon moral restraint and turn to the sort of hedonistic excess that would make even the most excitable Russian Princess blush with shame.
The answer is simple: young people must put in the work required to understand the issues. They won’t get the answers by blasting Bon Jovi songs on their iPods, that is a given.
The concept of virtue signaling is alive and well in the LDS culture. You can justify your virtue signals by stating that you are just trying to be properly obedient. But we all know that this principle can be taken to extremes because we tend to judge each other based on these signals. We are horrified if someone thinks our kids are rebellious because they dress immodestly or fail to wear a white shirt. Can any of you men reading this even imagine not wearing a tie to church? Ladies, what about pants? And we don’t dare get a tattoo or extra piercing after GBH’s 1999 talk. We wouldn’t want to be accused of “not following the prophet”. I’ve even seen members who now correct themselves when accidently uttering the word “Mormon” in a conversation.
It’s one thing to obey laws of high morality and strong ethics. It’s another to take it to the Pharisee level in order to send signals. One good question to always ask: does obeying X make me more spiritual or more Christlike? If the answer is NO, it might be wise to reconsider. Because one’s motive for obeying might be to look good to others, not to actually follow Christ’s example.
Mr. Charity likes to attack today’s young people but if there’s one thing I’ve learned from my teenagers is they don’t like arbitrary rules and they reject obedience just for the sake of obedience. The “because I said so” model doesn’t work with this generation.
I really like your Mormon applications in particular, Dave. On your point about inflated scope, I think the GAs encourage this by making some rules really detailed, which gives the impression that maybe the Church has rules (or should have rules) about everything at the same level of detail. For example, the Handbook still discourages vasectomies and tubal ligations. Does this mean I should check with my bishop about my appendectomy? How about a colonoscopy? Or FTSoY (and a million other church publications) say women and girls can have no more than one set of ear piercings, and tattoos are discouraged for everyone. So does that mean my bishop should weigh in on other body modifications? What if I want to get a pacemaker? An artificial hip? An insulin pump?
My examples are a little silly, and you can probably come up with reasons why it seems clear to you that the Church should care about one set of medical things and not another set. But I think it’s often not clear to everyone, and the Church is really creating its own problems by getting so down in the weeds on particular issues. Even vaccines, which I cannot stress how much I applaud the Church for coming down on the right side of, seem like a pretty high level of detail for them to weigh in on. Are they going to not only tell us to take our vitamins (thanks, President Nelson), but *which* vitamins, and at what dosages?
I think the Church would be better off just teaching general principles (physical health is good; having children is encouraged) and leaving the details to the members.
One of the challenges in our political structure is that almost always people in places of power had to “strive” to get into those positions. Very rarely do we have people in office who “serve” rather than seek power. The unfortunate byproduct of this is that once in power, these “leaders” lead by telling people what to do. That is something I like about church leadership. We don’t (usually) campaign for Bishop or EQP (primary pianist is the one to campaign for if you must…). Because everybody serves and the time is limited, our collective incompetence protects us from some of this accumulation of power.
In general, I agree with Dave’s 3 points. In specific, it’s a lot more complicated on the individual level. I think there has been a positive move in the last 10-20 years with respect to separating “policy” or “rules” from doctrine. There is still a strong undercurrent to equate every opinion or rule from someone higher up the authority chain as a command from God, but that current is lessening. While I still hear the obedience lectures from some quarters, nuance is being recognized.
Rules and obedience culture frustrate me, but I’m hopeful. I think the biggest areas for improvement that can really help us as saints are in how we treat our young adults. It frustrates me that we infantilize them and don’t trust them to make decisions for themselves. I’m amazed that the early church could send Matthew Cowley to Hawaii at 17 to essentially be the Church and yet can’t trust missionaries to drive their cars to do their jobs without micromanaging their schedules. Or can’t trust students at BYU to arrange housing or wear long hair. Talking to mission presidents (of my kids and locally), there seems to be a struggle of different styles at that level that is happening now. Is obedience the most important factor in living the gospel or is it something else? Mission Presidents seem to have very different approaches to this question. I’m curious as to the direction they are receiving, because the output is very varied. I’d like to see more trust and fewer rules on the stuff that isn’t doctrine and more power to do good for them.
Great post. The obedience thing is ironic, considering how many of our scriptural heroes are characterized as revolutionaries fighting against corrupt powers. How many times was Paul imprisoned? Or Joseph Smith? How many martyrs do we lionize? How many times was Jesus in direct conflict with religious authorities?
The problem is these figures are always depicted as being on the side of God when fighting the institution. And today the institution has a hard time distinguishing itself from God. But then again, maybe that’s why the church is experiencing so many defections. Perhaps they’ve trained us better to rebel than I typically give them credit for.
I think the three issues you mention are accurate.
I’d add another issue and that’s that we have terrible boundaries. We are expected to meet with priesthood leaders on short notice, alone, with no information about the purpose of the meeting and we are also generally expected to accept callings extended in those mysterious meetings on the spot. (I know that if you take initiative you can avoid this, ask for more time, etc., but people rarely do that.). We are also expected to meet with priesthood leaders every year and discuss with them our financial contributions to the Church, and every other year and respond to questions about our sexual behavior and the underwear we wear.
The Church is involved in all of our major life events (at least if we want to be “good” Mormons) – from birth (baby blessings, which have to be done in a specific place in a specific way and BTW no mom you don’t get to participate), baptisms, routine interviews as youth, missions, marriage, family and career planning (esp for women), and death (have heard some real horror stories at the ways Church authorities have commandeered funerals for their own purposes). It is involved (and interrogates us about) so many daily decisions: what to wear, what to eat and drink, what to read and watch, how to spend our time, how to spend our money. I’m sure I’m missing some areas. It’s really quite comprehensive when you think about it. I mean, it tells us what underwear to wear. I don’t know that you get any more boundary-less than that.
So, as I find myself saying lately about various Church-related things … obedience to authority is a feature, not a bug, of the Church, and it’s instilled in us from birth and reinforced through failing to respect boundaries throughout life so that it seems totally normal for us to follow authority. I think that’s honestly easier for a lot of people, too, at least until you come up against a situation where you absolutely disagree with an authority on an important matter. And then it all falls apart and frankly a lot of people don’t really even know how to make decisions anymore because they never decided anything on their own. (Talk about infantilizing people.)
@JCS, this is such a gem: “They won’t get the answers by blasting Bon Jovi songs on their iPods, that is a given.“ A given for sure.
A member of the stake presidency came to our ward conference to push a weekly missionary meeting to be held after church by all members of the ward council, with the usual promise of miracles and large numbers of converts. It was being pushed by the area presidency. I was in the bishopric and my wife was primary president. I calmly and politely pointed out that if we were both present our kids would be unattended, and to look after their safety only one of us would be present at the weekly meeting. The stake presidency member tried again to get me to commit. I politely refused. Then he got angry and stated that he knew that I would lose my eternal family for not obeying my priesthood leaders. My bishop was present. No one on the ward council was willing to say anything in my defence.
The mini-meetings only took place one or two weeks. Everyone that had committed to do the meetings actually had no intention of doing them, they were just waiting for the counselor to leave our ward and for the program to be forgotten about. Politely saying no is very threatening to whomever is in charge, but lying and saying yes, and then then doing nothing is perfectly acceptable.
It turns out I was making the right choice as there was a child molester in our ward who was actively molesting children in that time frame. I didn’t find out about that until after I was called as bishop.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
Following up on Ziff’s comment, go read the dozens and dozens of LDS policies now publicly available in the General Handbook, link below. They show both the Church’s longstanding habit of micromanaging the lives of members in a variety of areas, but also new softer “discourages” language and often a disclaimer that in the end this is a personal matter for the member or the couple. I’m pretty sure the softer language and the disclaimers were not always part of the policies in the past. A few examples:
Policy 38.6.7, Donating or Selling Sperm or Eggs: “The pattern of a husband and wife providing bodies for God’s spirit children is divinely appointed (see 2.1.3). For this reason, the Church discourages donating sperm or eggs. However, this is a personal matter that is ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of the potential donor. See 38.6.9. The Church also discourages selling sperm or eggs.”
Policy 38.6.4, Birth Control: “The Church discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization includes procedures such as vasectomies and tubal ligations. However, this decision is a personal matter that is ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of the husband and wife. Couples should counsel together in unity and seek the confirmation of the Spirit in making this decision.”
But let’s give credit where it is due. Some of the policies deserve a real thumbs up and show a lot more sensitivity than in the past (or the present, depending on whether local leaders are actually familiar with the policies or not). Read, for example, the policies on suicide (38.6.20), burial and cremation (38.7.2), and individuals whose sex at birth is not clear (38.7.7).
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng#title_number3
plvtime: “Politely saying no is very threatening to whomever is in charge, but lying and saying yes, and then then doing nothing is perfectly acceptable.” This pretty much sums up my life experience with home teaching, which is probably why the Church rebranded it as something with very little accountability anymore.
I was in a bishopric a few years ago and I was totally floored by the number of times I heard the word no. It surprised me. It’s apparently a thing now.
Having recently read Brene Brown though, I understand it now. My time is all I have. And I owe no one an explanation. Whether it’s not accepting a calling, not attending yet another meeting, not having time for being taught a fake missionary lesson, or not being able to help with some last minute need, the word no is sufficient. I owe them no further explanation. This new teaching has been a huge paradigm shift for me, and I get very strange looks when I employ it at Church, but eventually I think it will be more common.
To quote Phoebe from Friends: “Oh I wish I could, but I don’t want to.”
There is nothing that erodes my respect for someone purporting to be an adult faster than their claim to being “obedient.” To me that sounds like you are doing things to get approval from people to whom you’ve outsourced your moral authority, and you literally can’t defend your actions on any rational basis. If you believe you should do the thing, do the thing. If not, don’t. Either way, own your choices and decisions. Grow the hell up. And people who tell you that you should be obedient to them without qualification, no thanks. That’s literally how the greatest evils in the world have occurred. “Oh, but WE would never lead you astray.” That’s what everyone says. Again, no thanks. I will continue to exercise my own moral agency based on an evaluation of the options and situations.
When an adult does this, that’s an indictment of them IMO. When a teen or child does it, it’s problematic and potentially abusive that we’ve got some folks pushing them around, probing inappropriately into their thoughts. I really really don’t like it, although I have said kids have to learn to lie to the bishop on their own terms. That’s not an ideal system, but what else can you do in this situation? There are some things that it’s just not appropriate for them to be asking and requiring answers about.
Once, many years agosa. I was the executive secretary. Bishop asked me to do something for him that I considered an abuse of authority, amd I flatly told him no. If wanted to do it, he would have to do so on his own. I was released a few weeks later and have had minumal leadership callings since then. I suspect he put something in my “permanent record”, and to be honest, if that’s the case, I thank him for it. I am perfectly happy being on the teaching track.
Charity loves to trash Bon Jovi. And Elisa has now jumped aboard. While I’m not a Bon Jovi fan, their song “It’s My Life” (songwriters: Gellner and Stranka) says more to me than 90% of GC talks.
“It’s my life/It’s now or never/I ain’t gonna live forever/I just want to life while I’m alive.”
Since I’m in my 70’s, this song resonates with me.
I’ve never been big on following rules I disagree with. Whether it’s mission rules, WoW, tithing, keeping the Sabbath day holy, etc. As for birth control, sexual positions, what underwear to wear, vasectomy, earrings, tattoos, grooming, etc, it’s none of the Church’s business. I don’t do it interviews any more.
When I have personal problems, the last person I want to talk to is the Bishop. He is probably not a trained councilor or theologian. He’s an ordinary guy, like me, just trying to survive. After all, he needs to spend time with his family.
Josh is right about “virtue signaling” being a real problem in the church. It is the major reason that most who wear masks at church are doing so.
The first presidency very clearly made mask wearing at church optional. However, the virtue signalers have taking the “urge” and made it a Pharisee-level test of obedience. It is an easy way for them to signal “Look at me, I am following the prophet better than you.”
^ Is it? I’m wearing a mask at church and church activities because I don’t want to catch covid and die, or worse, transmit it to my family and have them die. We’re not out of the woods yet.
You got me, Ivy. I’m only wearing a mask to show what a good prophet follower I am. In fact, I’m such a good prophet follower that I was wearing one before he even told us to! Only we who are the very elect can see the prophet’s future commandments. I feel sorry for everyone else.
@roger Hansen, to be clear, I thought it was a wonderful aspersion not because I hate Bon Jovi (I have no feelings one way or the other) but because no young people I know are (a) using “iPods” or (b) listening to Bon Jovi. (And I’m sure JCS knows that and is messing with people and it was a refreshing change from hot dogs and violent video games and crocs).
@ivy, have you asked people wearing masks at church why they are wearing them? I come from a big family of mask wearers and I can 100% attest that it has nothing to do with virtue signaling. It has to do with (a) not getting sick, (b) not getting other people sick, and (c) following a request of *the actual building owners* about what to wear during Church services (which is v different from “blind obedience” to authority).
Either that or JCS is so ancient he thinks 50 somethings are whipper snappers.
I have really enjoyed this post, and most of the comments.
I joined the Church 47 years ago, and was always uncomfortable with the claim that obedience is the first law of Heaven. Like Angela C, whenever I hear this, I smell a rat, a con job in progress.
I gradually learned to answer that claim with a mock-innocent tone of voice and say, I thought that the First of the First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel is Faith, and that loving God and our neighbor are the most important commandments. I sometimes toss in Faith, Hope, and Charity. It is often amusing to hear the obedience fanatics try to thread this particular needle.
Interestingly, with mask resistance running at high levels, I believe that harping on obedience has declined. Follow the Prophet, except when…..
Not to hijack an excellent comment thread, but I attended my daughter‘s Ward in Lehi, last Sunday, to see my granddaughter in her first S.S. Primary presentation. Mask wearing much less in an area that voted 80 percent Trump. Bishopric member and deacons passing sacrament maskless, despite clear Church guidelines. I live in Sandy, which narrowly went for Biden; mask protocols much better followed in my ward. I believe there is a correlation, even in the Church:
I think obedience is the First Law of Heaven when I want to exercise authority over you, but when it comes to following the council of the Church President, who was a surgeon for decades, well, then, I will make up my own mind, obedience be hanged.
It’s time to give up the bromide about “the government we/you deserve.” In truth and in fact that should be all the government you can afford to buy. The increasingly strained American public can’t afford to buy much. OTOH, oligarchs like the Waltons and Kochs and Sacklers and the corporate giants can buy all they need and want with their equivalent of pocket money.
If the church considers our Constitution sacred couldn’t it be doing more with $100+ billion and the influence that brings to preserve democracy and level out the distribution of wealth so that our government is no longer for sale?
Economists often get very different results when trying to replicate studies.
It is an entire sub-discipline that looks at studies with flaws like Milgram had.