Two weeks ago, I listened to an interesting interview on a NYT podcast with a doctor who had worked in hospice and had amassed data about end-of-life experiences. During the last few weeks of life, the vast majority (88%) of hospice patients experience talking to loved ones who have died before them. Sometimes they interact with deceased pets. These experiences are often (but not always) very peaceful and comforting as they enter the final phase of life, death.
This weekend, the interview really hit home as my mother, who lives across the country from me, has begun experiencing this phenomenon, according to two of my siblings who are with her. I tweeted about it, and there were many, many responses from others sharing the exact same experiences when their loved ones were in hospice. (Go to the link to read some of their stories.)
Someone recommended a book called The In Between: Unforgettable Encounters During Life’s Final Moments by Hadley Vlahos, a young hospice nurse in New Orleans. I’ve only begun reading it. Often caregiver family members are frightened when they see their parent or loved one conversing calmly with thin air, clearly seeing someone who can’t be seen by others. Sometimes they assume their relative is delusional or that pain medications are the cause, but Hadley and other hospice doctors and nurses debunk this, stating that it is the norm at this phase of life, that it occurs regardless of medications and treatments, and across different cultural and religious backgrounds.
Chris Kerr was 12 years old when he witnessed his dying father have a deathbed vision. He reached out to his son and said with a peaceful smile that they needed to catch their flight for a fishing trip in the Canadian wilderness, an annual event that brought them together despite his father’s busy schedule as a surgeon. A hospital priest led Chris away from his father protectively, telling him his father was delusional, dismissing the experience as the raving of a dying man. When Chris grew up, he became a doctor and eventually worked with hospice patients. His years of working with those who were no longer fighting to stay alive, but who were instead preparing for death, led to him doing a TED Talk on this topic. Immediately, caregivers approached him, thanking him for finally validating what they had all witnessed, that nearly all hospice patients went through this phase, and that it was a positive, often healing experience, even addressing trauma they had carried with them through their lives and bringing them peace in their final moments.
Do these experiences feel religious to you? No, and that was one of the most convincing things for me. It does not matter what their background is — if they believe in nothing, if they are the most religious person, if they grew up in a different country, rich or poor. They all tell me the same things. And it’s not like a dream, which is what I think a lot of people think it is. Like, Oh, I went to sleep, and I had a dream. What it is instead is this overwhelming sense of peace. People feel this peace, and they will talk to me, just like you and I are talking, and then they will also talk to their deceased loved ones. I see that over and over again: They are not confused; there’s no change in their medications. Other hospice nurses, people who have been doing this longer than me, or physicians, we all believe in this. – Hadley Vlahos
Vlahos also observed that when she did her residency working in Emergency Rooms, that the nurse she shadowed said that nobody who works in the emergency room believes in an afterlife. (I’m pretty sure that’s not accurate as I know a former bishop who is an ER doc, but it could be a majority opinion of those in the ER based on the experience of watching people die under those circumstances). Hospice is a somewhat unique death experience in that one is expecting to die and is now focused on comfort and acceptance, not on fighting to live. The ER is all about preserving life, dealing with (sometimes) life-threatening emergency situations that nobody is ready to accept or give into. These deaths are not as peaceful or contemplative. Hospice is kind of the opposite of the ER.
So what are these experiences like?
They can occur while patients are asleep or fully conscious. Dead family members figure most prominently, and by contrast, visions involving religious themes are exceedingly rare. Patients often relive seminal moments from their lives, including joyful experiences of falling in love and painful ones of rejection. Some dream of the unresolved tasks of daily life, like paying bills or raising children. Visions also entail past or imagined journeys — whether long car trips or short walks to school. Regardless of the subject matter, the visions, patients say, feel real and entirely unique compared with anything else they’ve ever experienced. They can begin days, even weeks, before death. Most significant, as people near the end of their lives, the frequency of visions increases, further centering on deceased people or pets. It is these final visions that provide patients, and their loved ones, with profound meaning and solace. – NYT article
My mother used to share a family story with me from her childhood. When her grandfather died, her aunt was so distraught that she wouldn’t eat and she cried in her room all day. One night, her aunt’s deceased father came to the end of her bed and told her she had to stop grieving because she was making herself sick, and he was fine, and she needed to stop worrying. My mother’s aunt did not want another visit from her dead father, so she stopped grieving. (They were all Lutherans.)
The religious interpretation of these experiences might be that the “veil is thin” and that dead relatives are actually present, and only the dying person, the one who is ready to “join” them, is able to see them, that these are visits, not visions, that they originate outside the dying person, not from within. A non-religious interpretation might be that there is much we don’t know about the mind’s ability to process memories and to shut down as the body dies.
There is another end of life phenomenon that often occurs that doctors call “the surge.” It’s similar to “nesting” during the last phase of pregnancy. The body is suddenly more energetic. Patients who were bed-ridden suddenly get out of their bed and move throughout the house, doing activities they haven’t felt up to in a long time. While someone new to the hospice experience, particularly family members who aren’t ready to say goodbye, might interpret this as the person being “healed” or no longer dying, hospice doctors have seen it happen enough that they know it usually signals that the final 24-48 hours of life has arrived.
Hadley Vlahos also talks about the fact that many of her patients are ready to die. This is something that my mother has expressed at times as well. She’s 97. She’s had a good run. There’s almost more going wrong than going right with your body at some point, and these things add up on your mental state and endurance.
Personally, I’ve never met someone 100 or older who still wants to be alive. – Hadley Vlahos
Of course feeling old and ready to die is always going to be relative to both mental and physical health factors, so it varies from person to person. Hadley explains that most of her patients feel more of a pull toward those who have already died than they do toward the living, and this is one reason that their focus is on those who’ve died.
- Do you know anyone who has experienced this phenomenon? Have you been present when someone had a deathbed experience like this?
- Do you find this compelling evidence of an afterlife, or do you see it as unrelated?
- Is the mind providing healing and comfort as it shuts down, helping the person feel wholeness and well-being that the worries and cares of life prevent? Or are dead people actually visiting them from beyond, urging them to join them in the afterlife?
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
Yes, this happened a number of times when I was sitting with my father.
if it were random remembrances or hallucinations, he might have been talking to anyone, living or dead — he is one of eleven siblings, and he had conversations with two of the three who had already passed — he had no interactions with anyone still living; only conversations with persons already dead.
Yes, the frequent “the veil is thin” references are convincing when preaching to the choir, but don’t really stand up to serious consideration. I’m pretty sure that if a dying GA reported a vision where there was no Hell, no spirit prison, no suffering or angst, and all spirits go to the Wonderful Place, that would not get canonized or lauded as a revelation of truth through the thin veil. It’s only invoked when the ill or dying person gives an orthodox LDS account.
This phenomenon (the one discussed in the OP) is relevant to, for example, Elder Holland’s recent account of an NDE and Joseph F. Smith’s 1918 vision of the redemption of the dead, now canonized as D&C 138. Again, the LDS orthodoxy filter is active. If Elder Holland had a vision that told him he was working too hard and he needed to dial it back, maybe take a long vacation … well, we wouldn’t hear about it in General Conference.
I don’t see a division between religious and non religious or scientific. To me “the veil is thin” and comforting memories are very much the same thing and have the same positive effects, it’s just a matter of language and labeling. I have read about studies of an electrical field of sorts that exists during life and still exists after death for a time before it dissipates. You could call that the soul lingering before it moves on or you could see that as having nothing to do with an after life. Some atheists change their mind when they witness the death of a loved one. Certainly a dead body feels very different and empty compared to a live one, when one is nearby.
Personally I am not worried about defining and separating this. Our loved ones exist very indelibly in our minds, whether we are with them, or separated by life events or death. They are very real and pervasive in our experience and aren’t going away, even if the relationship is more negative in nature and we haven’t seen them for a long time. And so, when a person dies, what is to me, the essence of them, remains.
Full disclosure, my father died in late February. I didn’t get there until a few hours after he passed, but I talked with him and my mother and sisters on the phone every day. At first, even though he was sick, he didn’t want to go. But his mind had been constantly on family who had passed in the last couple years as his health failed. He was worried about leaving my mom as she struggles to walk and he had been caring for her for years. She had to reassure him that she would be fine after he left and when she succeeded everything changed.
On the day he died, he sat up by my mom and my sister took a picture to send to family that weren’t there. And then he started “working at death” which is a normal process according to the hospice workers. They thought he would last a few days and my sisters were exhausted and I rushed to relieve them but he died before I arrived.
The funeral was beautiful and peaceful except for the man in the stake presidency my mother asked to speak at the end going on in a “think celestial” vein 🤮. Even my mother didn’t like that. It was inappropriate in my opinion, but then I feel that way all the time.
My mom feels like my dad is still there with her. After all, where else would he go? Certainly the house is full of his hunting stuff.
As for me, I feel the stability my dad brought to my life can never be taken away. His impact is indelible, whether his soul lives on as I suspect, or if he has joined the beauty and sadness of the natural process of birth and growing and dying I see and love in my garden and the world around me. I don’t need to “know” or define one way or the other. For me uncertainty feels comfortable. I accept it.
A friend of mine had to put together a funeral for his grandmother. She had been conversing with deceased loved ones for the last week of her life. He couldn’t really find an LDS hymn that depicted what he felt his grandmother had just experienced. He finally settled on Sissel’s Going Home as the most moving and accurate depiction. He held the funeral in the mortuary chapel because many of her friends were not LDS and he didn’t want to load the program with testimonies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJFhTb1gi6Y&t=5s
When my non-LDS mother was on Hospice towards the end she was pretty out of it, but the question she kept asking was, “who are these people in white suits?” At the time I was a TBM so I assumed it was people on the other side of the “veil” dressed like temple workers preparing for her to arrive, or for them to escort her. I don’t know who she was seeing, or whether it was real or not.
If we have to wear those ridiculous white suits and matching white shoes in the afterlife, I’m reincarnating myself.
The stories about interactions with family members via near death experiences give me more hope than what I consider to be made-up LDS doctrine on eternal families. I’m sure many of you disagree with me. Then again you are probably skeptical of any individuals claiming to see family members after death unless they were sealed together because those are the only people allowed to be with their family members, right?
@Old Man, thank you for sharing the link to the video Going Home. I served my mission in Montreal, Canada, French-speaking. In the LDS French hymnbook, there is a very special hymn titled “Souviens-toi” that is sung to the same melody (New World Symphony by Antonin Dvorak). The English translation of the French hymn is roughly, “Remember, My Child.” This is one of the few French hymns that exists in the French hymnbook but not in the English one.
The entire hymn is about the pre-mortal existence, our heavenly parents, and the veil itself. I think it is an entirely appropriate hymn for this blog post and discussion. It has a very special meaning for me as I sang it often to my son when he was a newborn to calm him and get him to fall asleep.
When my son was a newborn, it as about the same time as my grandfather was passing and on hospice. My grandfather was a staunch and proud democrat and he was from Rexburg, Idaho. He was certainly an outlier politically! But he was active, believing member his entire life. He served a mission in his youth and later as a couple. He was in many student bishoprics for Ricks College/BYU-Idaho. His father was the mayor of Idaho and was instrumental in pushing back at some of the church leadership who wanted to move Ricks College to Idaho Falls. There is an entire backstory story there I’ll share some time.
Anyway, my grandfather had some strange visions when he was on hospice, but in his case I don’t think they were of the type where he was conversing with deceased relatives. He had a sense of humor that was just hilarious all the way up until he passed. A few days before he passed he said to me and my dad, “I think I should register as a Republican before I pass.” We were stunned because he was very against the GOP. Then, without missing a beat he added, “Better to lose one of them than one of us!” I’ll never forget that! His wife, my grandmother, was a staunch conservative Republican. He often said that their votes simply cancelled out one another. Their relationship, despite deep political differences, was something that I’m not sure is too common in our present political day and age, but could serve as a great model for present day members.
Here is a version of “Souviens-toi” sung in both French and English:
I used to work at long-term care facilities as a nurse. Something I witnessed is residents having some control over timing of their demise. For example, I would see residents holding onto life until a particular family member travels to see them for a final visit, then they would die shortly afterwards
My interpretation is that people are experiencing a massive confirmation bias. They already believe that their deceased loved ones continue to exist in a spirit form and that they will see them again in the afterlife. It has become so hardwired into their brain that upon nearing death they experience a sort of hallucination. I’ve experienced extremely vivid dreams, sometimes so vivid that when I begin awaking, I question myself if that actually happened. The human brain is good at playing tricks on people. But there really is no good evidence that we continue to exist after we die. There are nothing but anecdotes.
That said, this is not a topic I dwell on too much. I’m much more interested in the here-and-now and foreseeable future. I just assume that I will stop existing entirely after I die. In a way it actually gives me comfort. Comfort that there is a release from consciousness and existence and the pains that can accompany it. Take advantage of consciousness and appreciate it while you have it.
Jacob L,
Great hymn! You grandfather sounds like a fabulous human being.
Lonicera,
My grandmother was on her death bed on my son’s 9th birthday. He was very close to his great-grandmother. She woke up just long enough to greet the children (she ignored the adults) and went comatose that evening, but she held on for 48 hours so he wouldn’t remember her death on his birthday. She had actually expressed concern about this months earlier and declared she would not die on any family birthdays.
Brad D,
Not to be combative, but my atheist friend had the same experience.
I am of the universalist bent, so I take these stories as evidence that people everywhere and of every religious or non-religious persuasion are welcomed to the other side where they experience peace and happiness with loved ones.
I have never been close enough to death for one of these experiences, but my uncle said my grandparent’s stillborn twins came for my grandpa when he passed. I have twice experienced persistent thoughts about a friend or relative immediately coinciding with their (unexpected) death, which to me was a sign of an eternal connectedness. A member acquaintance who is an ED doc said she could write a book about these sorts of experiences.
All this is to say that I believe in connections between this life and the next, and I take these stories as indicative of a post-mortal future for each individual. The universality of these stories refutes some of what we learn at church.
I appreciate the vulnerability in people sharing these stories. And Angela holding space for your family as you experience this family milestone.
I keep thinking of the phrase “my life flashed before my eyes” and I wonder if in our final days we replay our life, which for someone who lives a full life, will mostly include a cast of deceased characters. I’m open to any and all interpretations; I wouldn’t want to explain to the living how they process these experiences.
I had a front row seat to my MIL’s final days and while I largely feel it’s not my story to tell, I do recall she woke up at one point and told us how hard it was to die and she was afraid her stubbornness was keeping her alive. She had the (somewhat Mormon) belief that her deceased husband needed to bring her to the other side and she wanted to go it alone as she did not have a great marriage. She finally sighed and mentioned that she just needed to let things happen and be ok with it and she passed away shortly thereafter. She was a formidable woman; I miss her.
from the OP and the first comment, and several other times, the dying person appears to communicate with dead loved ones. If they were hallucinating, they would also speak to the living, and perhaps also to Napoleon Madame Curie, or George Washington. It appears to be that they converse with the dead. In my father’s case, the dead siblings and parent that he spoke to were all non-members (my father and I were comverts), and their temple work hadn’t been done because of the 110-year and next-of-kin rules. I do not understand it, but I do not dismiss it as hallucinations. Why, that sounds like confirmation bias! It gives me comfort.
Georgis: Actually, if you go to the Twitter link with people’s comments, it’s not exclusively that they are talking to the dead, although that’s certainly the most common (talking to their very closest loved ones). One woman apparently had a very long conversation with Tom Selleck, who is in fact still alive. Now that’s a superfan. I think the key is that the ones they talk to are very important to them. And yes, very comforting.
Old Man, Georgis and others. Believe what you believe, I simply don’t place any stock in anecdotes. Maybe there are lots of anecdotes. OK, then I look for scientific studies that map these onto tangible results and explain a pattern. I do know that people hallucinate and experience confirmation bias. That’s scientifically established fact. I’ve heard many impassioned stories from individuals about how they talked with the dead. I’ve similarly heard many impassioned stories from people about how they are the reincarnation of someone who is dead or several people in the past who died. And yet, talk of reincarnation, a belief held by about a third of people in the US and 40% of Hindus, seems taboo in the Mormon world. But instead of honing in on reincarnation and how it is not possible or not true, Mormons tend to just ignore the issue. Where I stand in regards to talking with the dead (doesn’t really happen) is how many of you stand in regards to reincarnation. Yet, many of you don’t want to admit it because it is inconvenient to your argument.
I agree with Sleeper. I’m a bit of a universalist and I find comfort in people of all religions or no religions having positive experiences with near death experiences and conversing with loved ones at the end of life. (As Brad D. suggest, this is absolutely confirmation bias, and I’m all right with that).
I’ve read a lot about near death experiences (and I don’t know if what people experience is real or not). But I find it interesting that in the stories of people who “go to the other side” and speak to loved ones or Jesus, nobody ever tells them that they should get baptized and join the LDS church because it’s the one true religion. Also, nobody tells them that they should leave the LDS church because it’s a false religion.
This makes me think that what religion one belongs to really doesn’t have much of an effect on what happens to them in the next life. But I do believe that the state of one’s soul in this life will have an effect on the state of one’s soul in the next life. But all of these beliefs are based on some pretty big assumptions, and are not backed up by any concrete scientific evidence. *shrug*
there is the issue, Brad D, in your last words. I made no argument. I simply shared what I had observed in my father’s waning days, something that I do not fully understand. I don’t think that he was hallucinating, and some others who weren’t there think otherwise. All good. I am also able to believe that a tomb was empty, and the women who went there were not hallucinating, but many think they were crazy. To each his own.
I believe that when you are dead, you are dead. I have seen no empirical evidence to suggest otherwise. Can’t say it brings any comfort, but I can’t do anything about it.
I see no evidence for God either. But suspect somewhere in the ether, a malicious entity is getting twisted joy out of tormenting sentient creatures. Or maybe it’s rage at it’s own dark, cold inevitable end.
As for what some people experience at death, I can play ignorant arm chair scientist. So I will speculate (make up) that these experiences help create group cohesiveness that allow individuals to thrive and reproduce.
Maybe that’s why the Homo erectus died out. Unlike Homo Sapiens, they engaged in rational thought and not mass delusions.
Another interesting thing about Mormon culture is that Mormons do not appear to place much stock in psychics, who often claim that they have the power to communicate with dead relatives. At least among my many believing friends and family, I have never heard anyone talk about seeing a psychic. Believing Mormons tend to believe that they themselves can have psychic powers, or at least psychic experiences and that they do not need a psychic. That said, I wonder what people on here think of psychics. If you believe your father, friend, or whoever’s story about seeing/communicating with the dead, do you believe psychics or at least that certain people have psychic powers to be able to communicate with the dead?
Georgis, what I find interesting is the selectivity of belief in miracles. Religious believers seem to believe in and emphasize only miracles that are specific to their religion. So being a Christian, you say you believe Jesus’s tomb was empty. But do you believe that Muhammad rode from Mecca to Jerusalem in a single night on the back of a winged horse? Do you believe that the Virgin Mary appeared to 30,000 people in Portugal in 1917? Do you believe that the Sri Sathya Sai Baba, who had over 30 million devotees, healed people from cancer and performed a large array of other miracles, including making magic eggs appear?
A side note, I do not make these statements with the intent to mock or ridicule, but to provide food for thought. I respect what people have to say as to their religious beliefs and traditions or spiritual beliefs. But I’m simply not moved to place belief in similar propositions. Yet such is religion, right? Decades ago, there were intense debates between evangelicals and Mormons about the nature of God, but with the rise of secularism and irreligion, the religious seem to have set many of their differences on the shelf.
Personally, I have no idea what happens when we die. I tend to think life just ends, and that’s that. But what do I know? When I do know, I won’t be able to come back and tell you all, so there’s that. I’m inclined to think the mind is incredible at providing what we need at each stage of life, including coming to terms with its own ending. There is great comfort in healing from past traumas and letting go of life while remembering our closest loved ones who’ve gone on before us.
Brad D,
Interfaith dialogues are difficult. Hindus and Mormons have a plethora of differences and such surprising similarities that the dialogues I have witnessed have been astounding. I wished it happened more often. FYI, the Church made significant donations to get the Sri Ganesha temple built just East of the Jordan River temple.
I do know LDS psychics. Yep, they are rare. And I have great reverence for beliefs in reincarnation, instances of miracles in other faiths, etc. I always allow people to tell their own stories and resist reinterpreting them from an LDS angle. Just more good for thought.
“Personally, I have no idea what happens when we die. I tend to think life just ends, and that’s that.”
Really? I realize W&T prides itself on taking a nuanced approach to all things LDS and some things that aren’t, but I’ll admit, after hanging around eight years or so this statement still caught me a little off guard from a permablogger who “is active in her LDS ward.” Maybe it shouldn’t surprise me. I feel most permabloggers are a bit coy on where exactly their beliefs are, but over time, I’ve come to believe most authors here see the LDS church as a valuable resource for community (at least most of the time), and little more than that. Still, I’m a bit surprised.
I’ve said it before, but if I acquired a few more outdoor skills, I could easily live the life of a hermit. It’s my conviction in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (the afterlife being one of the strongest aspects of that conviction) that makes me a contributing member of the community, not community itself. It’s admittedly a little difficult to understand someone lacking conviction but remaining.
I do wish authors were a little more upfront about where they stand, as it does seem to chip away at the integrity of the blog (however strong it may be) at times.
Logic tends to tilt me a bit more toward the reality of some (but not all) of these visitations and visions. I realize evolution, adaptation, and defense mechanisms don’t always occur in an improved direction, but when I look at the efficiency in which the rest of the animal kingdom embraces death after an equally efficient quest for survival, the fact that many humans experience this makes it logically easier for me to believe there’s something to them. I realize I’m probably not making sense to many, and others are likely to interpret the logic differently.
Another quick aside: I’ve always been fond of the idea that memories may actually be able to be stored in DNA and resurface in subsequent generations. Best scientific explanation for reincarnation that I would think, though it says nothing of reincarnated people who weren’t related. I can also recall learning about a woman who got a heart transplant, then took up smoking and bought a Harley, finding out later her donor was a biker.
Eli: No deception intended. My author profiles (for here and for BCC where I also used to blog) were created 14 years ago, and at some point WP quit letting me log into the one that I blog under here, so I can no longer change it for whatever reason (that’s why my comments show up as Angela C, but my posts show up as Hawkgrrrl). It’s a pain.
Honestly, though, I don’t know why it matters. Do you think everyone in the pews next to you is convinced of every Mormon doctrine? What about my skepticism of the afterlife is more concerning than me being on record as stating that I disagree that polygamy was ever sanctioned by God? Or that I disagree with the church’s anti-LGBTQ stance? Or that I think the BOM is a 19th C creation? Or that I think Uchtdorf is mostly correct in his interpretation of the gospel, which is not what several other leaders are teaching? Or that the Church’s doctrine is pro-choice, but they don’t know it?
In 2019 when I had brain surgery, it forced me to think a lot about my mortality. On some level, I had to be OK with the idea that I might not ever wake up after they administered general anesthesia to me. I realized that I didn’t really strongly believe that there was anything after death, although I’d be happy to be wrong about that. The closer I got to the moment of going under, the more strongly I felt that was the case. It doesn’t seem to be very important to my happiness or my commitment to being a good person. It doesn’t really affect me much. I find wonder in the ability of our minds to process trauma, life, and our physical realities.
In general, though, I don’t think it’s very relevant what I believe or whether I attend church. What we write are just opinions, and some of our authors are post-Mormon, some attend other churches now, and others are temple workers. Everyone here (commenters & authors alike) is connected to the church in some way, and therefore, we have enough of a basis to have the types of discussions many of us would have liked to have at Church, but the Church doesn’t really allow for that. Post-Trump I find that the community the church offers has lost its value, regardless my beliefs, but ymmv. I’m also surprised at the increasing percentage of PIMO members (physically in, mentally out). I would bet you it’s over 25%.
Some good and interesting points and food for thought. Thank you.
Sleeper, I appreciate your comment — I also note the universality of the experience. In my father’s case, those he talked to were not “members” during their life and the discussions involved no doctrine, only comfort. The experience we are talking about seems to be equal opportunity.
You and I both for a downvote, but both of us simply shared an honest observation related to the OP without making any claims and without denying anyone else’s experience. I pity our downvoter as an unhappy person.
Count me as another who regularly attends and has no idea what happens after we die, but most days leans strongly toward, in the words of the great philosopher Keanu Reeves, “the people who love us will miss us.” And that’s it.
You would not know this if you attended church with me, even though as a gospel doctrine teacher who was recently released, I spoke openly but generally about my doubts.
I’ve had moments when I’ve wanted to believe I felt the presence of the ancestors; but really, isn’t that what memory is?
On the question of psychics: my sister in-law (never-Mormon) consulted one on behalf of the family after my mother in-law died in her fifties. She recorded the session. Eerie what that lady said. Of course, 80% of it was so general as could apply to nearly anybody. 10% was flat inaccurate. But that other 10% was so specific, things no Google search would’ve told the woman, and no amount of research into the family either. Broken clocks, perhaps, but it did give me respect for people who consult mediums as part of their own spiritual practice. And it made my sister in-law feel better. So I am all for it.
Whether it is our memories and the literal cells in our bodies that connect us to those we love, or that there is an afterlife which exists in a more literal way, the dead shape us. I’m not looking forward to dying, and I hope it’s many years away (I’m 41). But if I get a good death, I am looking forward to seeing them again, whatever it is that enables that process. It will make joining them easier, maybe even desirable, when the time comes.
Psychic experiences.. hmm, I’m told my paternal grandmother was psychic but not too many stories. She and my grandfather joined a spiritualist church and later became joined the Rosicrucian organisation. My father and his sister both joined the LDS church. He remained active, whilst she did not. I gather both had dreams. The day before my grandfather died I had a strong feeling to go and visit but did not, because my family had done so that morning before church, whilst I was in the shower, and asking permission was just too hard for me to do. So I decided I would go the next day. I was barely back from school when my grandmother was hammering on the door (they lived across the road). So I was too late. A few years later, one evening as my father was about to take my grandmother back home (we’d moved and she would come over every Sunday afternoon) I had a strong impression that it was the last time I would see her. Because of my previous experience I prayed hard for one more opportunity. This came later in the week when my parents were going to drive over for a brief visit to check on her, and I begged them to let me go with them. She died on the Saturday.
My maternal grandmother was never described as psychic. However, my mother made a remark which indicted that my grandmother felt deceased family members would alert her to things, and that she would know which family member that was. My mother’s parents were not LDS.
For myself, I have twice experienced what I believe to be a communication from the deceased father of a friend and teacher. The friend in question did not get on with their father, and had very little good to say about them, so it is interesting to me that their father is concerned about their life in this way. The communications were in connection with things I needed to do or to know in connection with my friend/teacher in their life, and I didn’t share the experiences with them.
I think there is no question that the dead live on with us in our memories, and not just tied to the events and experiences we shared with them. They exist almost as living beings for us the better we know them: parents, siblings, children, partners, aunts, close friends, even grandparents in some cases. We know them, but in relation to ourselves. We know how it felt to be with them, the good and the bad, and that feels to me how these encounters are–making peace with those relationships, plus feeling the tug of the inevitable. There is beauty and peace in that, and honestly it’s far more appealing than the Mormon version of the afterlife, depending on who’s describing it. If it’s a spiritual baby farm with polygamy, that’s actual hell. If it’s, as Romney described in the McKay Coppins book, a big church meeting, that sounds boring AF (which was his conclusion as well).
ji:
“The experience we are talking about seems to be equal opportunity.”
I agree. Birth, life, and death are things that we all experience as well as the transition from this sphere of existence to the next.
There’s a pivotal scene in the 2009 movie “The Invention of Lying,” starring Ricky Gervais (the film, itself was meh, IMO,), where the lead character suddenly develops the ability to lie in a world where that just isn’t a thing. (It’s the opposite plot of “Liar Liar,” I suppose). In the scene, he is attempting to comfort his mother who is dying in her hospital bed when suddenly he finds himself describing the popular conception of heaven (it will be peaceful, everyone you know and love will be there, ect). The entire hospital staff is riveted, the mom dies in peace. The entire premise is that he is lying – there is no afterlife, but it was still quite a touching scene.
The point being, if seeing dead people brings comfort to people and their families in their final moments, then fantastic. It’s not my business to say it’s a all a hallucination, nor to interpret the experience as evidence of an afterlife or not. (I’m not saying the OP is doing this. Just putting in my two cents).I personally have not had any experience even approaching communication with the dead nor witnessed someone else experiencing it first hand, though I know several people who have. That experience is theirs and they are entitled to interpret it however they want. For what it’s worth, I have heard from several people who have worked in assisted living facilities who experienced paranormal/spiritual activity, including being visited by patients they had been caring for who had just died. (Among many other things. Ask anyone who has worked in that field who is willing to open up and you’ll likely hear some crazy stories).
mat: “I have heard from several people who have worked in assisted living facilities who experienced paranormal/spiritual activity, including being visited by patients they had been caring for who had just died.” That’s really interesting, and similar to the family story I related in the OP about my great-aunt when her father died (family lore that predates me by quite a bit). I also found it interesting how widely different the experiences of OR personnel and hospice personnel were. It seems like when you fight death vs. embrace it, your notions of life change quite radically.
I agree with you that The Invention of Lying was kind of meh (Liar, Liar was much funnier), and I get what Gervais, an evangelizing atheist, was going for. Some of it hits, some of it feels like a swing & a miss.
I have in my life what I call “my angels” who assist/intervene/nudge/or something stronger. I aspire to be such an angel.
I also have experience with several people close to me who can/could perceive beings that most of us don’t see. I have no challenge believing these encounters. Why should I expect that nothing is real unless I can access it through one of my five physical senses? What massive human hubris!
A short time ago I had an experience that was becoming distracting. There was someone who had been important in my life that had passed away several years before. Suddenly events I’d had with this person were popping into my thoughts and conversations and related to other things that were happening. I consulted what I called a spiritualist, others say psychic, they say intuitive. This led not just to some settling in my mind about what may be happening, but also to a new friendship and path of learning for me.
I believe that God and many other aspects of this universe are way beyond what my puny mind would comprehend and confine them to. Other humans may be more accurate in that comprehension but I still believe that they are not even close to a full understanding.
I think holding the memory of someone dear is so precious. Even though my grandfather has died, I tell stories of him to my son to keep him alive. I hope I will live in some way to my son’s son and so on. I am reminded of this quote by Banksy: “You die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.”
Oh yes, human hubris. I like flush toilets and turning on the faucet and getting clean water. I like antibiotics and MRI scans. Empirical evidence just might have something to do with that. I do not understand the need to attach demeaning inaccurate terms to something that allows more and more people to not die in painful agony.
I have enough religious hubris to believe that humanity will grow in truth and light and come to comprehend the mind of God. But I bank on secular hubris. Better interest rate.
And I have hope (faint it may be) that progress will be made against such things as cancer and als. And world hunger and pandemic’s (got my flu shot) become the memory and not people.
Look, I text the dead. Something not possible 20 years ago. But they don’t text back and never will. Much better for them to still be alive, where I’m stuck watching inane TV programs yet again, having some nasty vegetable for dinner, listening to some Bowie song for the 9000th time. If hell is other people, why can’t it be eternal.
So that’s why I support the empirical. It is something that can bring families and friends closer together. I want a good family plan. A real one, not make believe. Can you hear me now.
Believing and psychic narratives thrive on this notion that they are unfalsifiable and therefore cannot be doubted. If you openly express doubt in them, they retort, “positivism,” “scientism,” “absolutism,” “there is so much we don’t know and understand, how can you claim to know that this isn’t true?” The problem with this thinking is that 1) skeptics don’t bear the burden of proof and 2) at the root of much religious belief and psychic claims is a relentless absolutism. Scientific thinking doesn’t work this way. Science tends not to rally around that which is “not understood.” Sure let’s explore ideas that have tiny shreds of evidence and see if we can find more. But at some point, when an idea has been not understood for too long and no new evidence is found that supports it, it is discarded, not clung to endlessly and relentlessly. Second, science is open to new evidence emerging that might challenge earlier understandings. When it does, the earlier understandings are modified or discarded altogether. Lastly, good scientific thinking is done on the basis of falsifiability. For a proposition to stand, its possible wrongness has to be presumed and accepted. Those propositions that are subjected to counterarguments and tested against seeming counterevidence but remain robust are the most solid. Even then, science will often label those propositions theories (unless proven empirically) and not absolute truth. So much of psychic thinking and religious truth claims are believed without question and when questioned, the defenders demand proof of a negative from the skeptic. The most stubborn absolutists and positivists are none other than many of the religious minded.
I do not think that the most stubborn absolutists and positivists are none other than many of the religious minded, but I think that empiricism and observation will support the statement that in the 20th and 21st centuries, the greatest numbers of human deaths were caused by bolsheviks, communists, nazis, and other types of socialists, the people who want to impose on everyone else what those socialists think is right, based on their views of science and collective good. At least in the west, religion has moved beyond killing those who think “wrongly.” I don’t seek to impose my thinking on others, nor do I condemn non-believers as wrong or stupid. My belief that the tomb was empty is admittedly not proveable, and I make no attempt to prove it. But when one says that he believes this or that, the deniers demand proof, and when none is forthcoming then come the labels of stupid, or benighted, or foolish. Some people on both sides have difficulty allowing people to think differently. Some enlightened smart people claim that those who have seen dying loved ones talk to dead family members must be delusional or hallucinating, although they weren’t there. I would not say that they were hallucinating. I would say that this is special for those who had and who shared that experience, and I would be the first to admit that I don’t understand all things.
Georgis: I think your characterizations of these fascist movements that had socialist ideals is either misinformed or disingenuous. Also, your claim that “religion has moved beyond killing those who think “wrongly”” causes me to raise an eyebrow when I see religious conservatives gleefully rolling back protections for women’s health, gun control legislation, and relishing in violent rhetoric. While this isn’t the same thing as burning heretics in the town square, it also doesn’t exactly instill confidence that religion is not seeking to control and punish its political foes (and embolden armed crazies against them).
“I don’t seek to impose my thinking on others, nor do I condemn non-believers as wrong or stupid.” That’s commendable, and I wish everyone felt that way. I can think of quite a few who don’t.
As to these comforting moments at the end of life, I agree that hubris is unwarranted. Nobody really knows what is happening, but I hope that people who are dying, almost no matter what sort of person we are talking about, find peace in the process.
I don’t know why some posters are demanding empirical results, science, proof, and so forth. This OP asked for observations and anecdotes. It is a fact to me that I saw and heard my father conversing with the dead — I only saw and heard one side of the conversations, of course, but I did see and hear his side. I know this happens on an equal opportunity basis among people of different faiths and persuasions.
I have made no assertions about the the validity or cause of the conversations — Brad D. will deny and deride my experience as merely anecdotal, but I never said it was anything other than anecdotal — and it is anecdotal, and I am okay with that. Some truth exists empirically, some truth exists anecdotally.
My truth is that I saw and heard my passing father having conversations with persons who were dead, but never with living persons or imaginary persons. I regret that my truth makes Brad D. so unhappy.
i’m with JI and the rest of you who are merely sharing observations, and not leaping to conclusions about the meaning of NDEs so much as musing about said meaning. I also am in agreement (for the most part) with those commenters who express a fondness for empirical, scientific evidence. I try to live my life at least as much by principles of science as I do religious teachings, and combining the two effectively has often been quite a challenge. Of course we know nothing about the afterlife that can be universally, scientifically proven. Same goes for any pre-birth existence. Most intriguing, isn’t it?
But by the same logic that it can’t be proven, it can’t be disproven. We simply are ignorant and cannot change that. And I think it’s inappropriate to come at someone flaming their tender musings as metaphysical hokum that cannot be proven. I don’t see anybody here seeking to prove any doctrine of the afterlife, but I’m seeing repeated pushback as if that was happening.
I have my own collection of personal family stories, and I won’t relate the ones I didn’t witness personally. But I sat with my mom in a facility weeks before her death, who I admit was progressing in Alzheimer’s, but was still quite lucid, and recorded her account of visiting with my deceased brother. She realized he may not have actually been present, and said so, guessing that she may have dreamed it. And then went on reporting her experience to my rapt attention. It was wild, and I can’t presume to know what it meant in all the ways it could have meaning. But I do know it happened, with an insider’s knowledge of the possibilities of meaning. I do think favorably on the possibility that there is observable communication like this. So please don’t anybody presume to interpret it for me. That’s not your business.
I wish to point out to Brad D that I approach my own and family experiences with an open mind . I also have a BEng and a PhD in materials chemistry, so I am not unfamiliar with the scientific method, and things that can be tested.
“I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying.” — Woody Allen.
All the follow-up comments seem to confirm my points. I say that there’s no good evidence that anyone has talked to a dead person and that lack of evidence makes all the claims of communication with the dead very likely untrue. Many of you agree with my first point that there is no strong evidence. Ok, that being the case why can’t you bring yourselves to my second point? The answer is that you’re absolutist in your beliefs that we live after we die and that the living can still communicate with the dead and vice versa. I’ve brought up psychics (obvious frauds, every last one of them) and many of you have entertained the idea that some psychics have real powers. I’ve brought up reincarnation and you turn a blind eye. If you have absolute belief that some have talked with dead people, then why not entertain the idea that some of the dead have gone on to inhabit other bodies? After all there are plenty of anecdotes for us to grasp onto that suggest reincarnation is a reality. It’s also a very widespread belief.
Georgis, bolshevism, etc. is a red herring.
ji, your assertion that you saw your dead father doesn’t make me unhappy at all. I simply am unconvinced that that is what really happened. If anything my being unconvinced seems to make you quite unhappy. But alas, simply because someone asserts something is true doesn’t make it true. Do you believe people’s stories about seeing the Virgin Mary? My guess is that you don’t. And maybe you’ll respond saying that you do believe in these Marian apparitions. Ok then are you willing to go to bat for that and tell others in your ward or family about how you believe that the Virgin Mary appears to people? No you’re not, because you know you’ll be laughed out of court.
“Yeah, but believing in being able to talk with the dead makes individuals feel good.” Of course, I don’t doubt that. I’m just saying that it’s not really happening. But show me good evidence, I’ll change my position. Yet you won’t change yours no matter the lack evidence and counterevidence. That’s what makes you absolutist.
Brad D: look in your mirror and there you will see the absolutist. You don’t believe and therefore it isn’t so, and everyone else is wrong. Is not the absolutism your keep referring to with distaste? You do not know that what others have seen is not true. No one here has claimed anything except to relate what they’ve observed, and what they admitted they did not fully understand. You are the only one claiming an absolutist position.
Brad D: “All the follow-up comments seem to confirm my points.” That’s essentially the motto of human psychology.
Also, if others are absolutists, why does it matter? Can’t they believe what they believe about their personal experiences while acknowledging that belief is not based on proof? It’s their choice, so why argue it? I also disagree that it’s absolutist that they are convinced of something they can’t prove. People believe things they can’t prove all the time. They aren’t asserting that it’s provable. This is a belief they hold lightly, but they hold it nonetheless (my recent post on made-up beliefs is roughly about this). Why does that need to be harangued out of them? When it comes to things that are unprovable, I’m for pluralism.
Maybe the problem is coming in with the attitude one has towards the unprovable. There are 4 main combinations:
1) Believe it, and want to believe it. This is the people you’re arguing against because they don’t have proof.
2) Believe it, but don’t want to believe it. I’m not hearing anyone here with this one except maybe my great-aunt in the OP.
3) Don’t believe it, but want to believe it. I’m between this position and the next one, and many commenters seem to be in that space.
4) Don’t believe it, and don’t want to believe it. This seems to be you.
What I don’t hear from those who believe these experiences are with actual dead people is an assertion that it’s obvious or provable or that anyone who disagrees is a bad person. Even if someone seemed on the verge of going there, it seems that they stepped back. The mischief is in trying to apply one’s own views to other people and requiring them to agree. Some may be persuaded; others won’t. The absence of evidence isn’t proof of a negative, but it does bear weight.
Brad D, You really should learn how to read, or, if you know how, you should honestly characterize the inputs of the people you disagree with. I never said anything about seeing my dead father.
Being honest, reading to understand others while honestly characterizing their inputs, and avoiding absolutist positions may lessen what I discerned as your unhappiness — but you say you’re not unhappy, and I hope that is true. Best wishes.
Georgis, to understand how I feel I invite you to go to the Hinduism subreddit where I recently read a thread where someone is claiming to have had Lord Ganesha appear to them. They said that they kept seeing an “elephant apparition.” The responses were “Lord Ganesha is looking after you,” “Lord Ganesha is a remover of obstacles,” “this is a thing of joy,” etc. Do you really think Lord Ganesha, an elephant god, actually appeared to this person? I’ve never ever heard any non-Hindu, non-Indian American ever say that they saw Lord Ganesha. Might you think were that topic forced into relevance around you that that didn’t really happen? You only maintain your position simply because beliefs that you don’t believe aren’t forced into relevance around you, therefore you do not talk about them. Were that to happen, I’m sure you would be as much of a skeptic as I am. Are you being an absolutist in being skeptical that people see Lord Ganesha? No. You’re simply not accepting the reality claims of a different faith tradition, because, well, they’re a bit far-fetched. But I don’t know, maybe we should throw our hands in the air and say, “we can’t jump to conclusions that Lord Ganesha doesn’t appear to people.” ”Lord Ganesha’s apparitions are something that many people claim and it is just something we don’t understand.” ”We don’t understand everything, so who are we to question the possibility of Lord Ganesha visiting people.” I mean it would be taboo to ask why Lord Ganesha only seems to appear to people who already believe in him or if confirmation bias from a lifetime of being a Hindu and the human brain playing tricks on people might be at the bottom of this. Ganesha forbid!
Ji, I apologize. I reread your comment, you claimed that you saw and heard your father conversing with the dead. I read too fast. My bad. Still, however, my point stands. Also, do you apply the same understanding to people who claim to have had a visitation from Lord Ganesha? Best wishes to you as well.
…And best wishes to you Georgis. Your opposing viewpoints to mine in this and other comment sections have helped/challenged me do try to articulate better.
I enjoyed the book “After” by Dr. Bruce Greyson and I am currently reading Evidence of the Afterlife by Dr. Jeffrey Long