One blogger calls him the “Denver Snuffer of Active Mormons.” Sometimes I’ve used the term Snuffer Lite.
Brother Mike Stroud is a relative newcomer to the Mormon podcasting scene, yet he has gained a significant following, especially among the LDS prepper community. Over at the One Who is Watching blog, Brother Stroud was recently cited as the “doctrinal patriarch” of an emerging remnant movement within the LDS Church, separate from the Remnant movement associated with Denver Snuffer. Rather than remnant, Brother Stroud tends to reference the elect of the latter-days (those who’ve been “awakened”) as the 144,000 or gatherers.
I became acquainted with Brother Stroud’s ideology earlier this summer when his podcasts were recommended to my ward’s Gospel Doctrine class. He seems like a nice, sincere guy. The way he talks reminds me of one of my favorite Sunday School teachers, a blue-collar no-nonsense authoritative figure.
But…
Brother Stroud is Denver Snuffer and Robert Norman all rolled up into one. And he doesn’t seem to grasp the consequences.
Do you know how many times I’ve heard, “Do the brethren know what you’re doing here? Have you gotten any pushback from the church? Does your stake president know what you’re doing? How about your bishop?” And to all of those questions I say, “I have no idea. I don’t know.” (Podcast 056: Layton Utah Conference, about 21:45)
Another question that I get all the time, “Brother Stroud, are you one of those apostates?” “Why? Because I teach the doctrine of Christ from the Book of Mormon?” (Podcast 056: Layton Utah Conference, about 50:57)
I’ve previously written about both Denver Snuffer and Robert Norman. Both were cited on the “Enemies List” slide, part of a leaked PowerPoint presentation created for the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in December 2015. This slide, titled “Issues and Ideas Leading People Away from the Gospel,” has issues of concern depicted on a spectrum of colored bubbles. Both Denver Snuffer and Robert Norman have small green bubbles on the right side of the slide, indicating more conservative/fundamentalist ideological deviations from orthodoxy.
Brother Stroud has all the institutional credibility of Robert Norman. According to a brief biography he shared with a prepper forum, Stroud worked in the Church Educational System for 27 years as a seminary teacher. He retired in 2006 and thereafter served three missions (Mongolia, Philippines, and New Jersey). One inspirational experience from his CES mission in Mongolia is in the By Study and By Faith CES manual. In that account, a local CES employee credited Stroud’s tutoring in Book of Mormon study as an incredible spiritual experience, motivating him to continue with his employment.
Brother Stroud often taught institute classes on his missions, which were apparently quite popular. It was requests to post his 2012 Book of Mormon institute classes (which were taught in the Philippines and transmitted via Skype) that brought Brother Stroud to the podcasting scene in 2016. He began a year-long Sunday evening podcast series in addition to posting those institute recordings.
For decades a super-prepper, Brother Stroud was mentioned in a 2002 Church News article as the Stake Preparedness Director when almost two-thirds of his stake secured a year’s supply of food.
“Since Dec. 28th, 10 semi trucks have come to Eagar and distributed wheat, beans, olive oil, and salt to members and non-members alike,” said Mike Stroud,… “There are now close to half a million pounds of wheat alone in our community that wasn’t there last December.”
But since Brother Stroud’s retirement, his religious views have been transformed by the teachings of Denver Snuffer. A decade ago, Brother Stroud read Snuffer’s first book, The Second Comforter: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil. It was a life-changing event.
And that began my quest for all of these things. That doctrine opened up other doctrines, things that lead up to– there are certain things that have to take place prior to you obtaining this great blessing, and I learned about those. And one door after it opened and it seemed like as soon as that door was open that the Lord sent information to Margie and I that we’d never received before. It just seemed to flow to us. And one thing came after another thing, and after another thing, and we started to experience things. We started to have great experiences, spiritual experiences, great pearls that came our way, and it all started because some guy that lives in Sandy, Utah, wrote a book and in it testified that he had seen Christ… (Podcast 014: Unbelief Revisited/Priesthood Introduction, about 49:36)
Like Snuffer, Brother Stroud believes that the Book of Mormon is the “handbook” to receive the Second Comforter, a personal visitation from Jesus Christ [Podcast 056]. The church is under condemnation, because we’ve “all but removed this doctrine from our doctrinal discourse in the church”[Podcast 047]. Luckily, people are are being inspired to learn about these mysteries, those who’ve obviously been foreordained to receive this blessing [Podcast 022].
Other Influences
Like many of those who follow Denver Snuffer’s teachings, Brother Stroud is also a fan of author John Pontius. One particular favorite, Visions of Glory, is an account of a detailed end-of-days vision received by a man called Spencer. It caused some sensation among the LDS community a few years back. Stroud relies heavily on “Spencer’s book” when discussing imminent future events, especially interactions of those in the 144,000 with translated beings from the City of Enoch.
It is not unusual for those who listen to his podcasts to also follow other endtimes visionaries like Julie Rowe and Shelle McDermott. Sister McDermott has appeared in firesides with Brother Stroud, and wrote forewards to his books (transcriptions of his podcasts).
Brother Stroud also encourages listeners to take seriously theories regarding the Revelation 12 prophecy being fulfilled next week on September 23, as well as other recent celestial manifestations. John Pratt gave a presentation of these signs of the times at the recent Remnant general conference in Boise.
Differences between Snuffer and Stroud
Brother Stroud’s views are determined heavily by personal revelation and speculation. He is not, however, afraid to modify his views based on the experiences of others. He doesn’t claim to have received the Second Comforter, so he depends heavily on accounts told to him by other latter-day saints. He’s like a sponge. When one listener expressed concern about Brother Stroud’s reliance on Denver Snuffer’s teachings, he explained,
I have read all of Denver’s material. I have learned much from what he has said. Denver has set his course on a path that he is pursuing. Time will tell where it leads. I gather information from whatever source I can, and then seek to discern through the Holy Spirit if it is truth or error. (Comment on Podcast 014: Unbelief Revisited/Priesthood Introduction)
Unlike Snuffer, Brother Stroud does not believe the current church is in a state of apostasy. He encourages members to remain in the church with the understanding that the institution is a preparatory organization.
The Brethren speak of the lesser portion of the word. Everything you hear in Church, everything you hear in general conference, every manual, every lesson, every talk is the lesser portion of the word…. If you won’t harden your heart and ask, seek, and knock for more, the Lord will begin step by step to present you to the greater portion of the word, which he refers to as the mysteries of God. (Podcast 021: Neutralized, about 35:20)
Brother Stroud heavily emphasizes using priesthood power to cast out devils and unclean spirits, something I’ve not seen as much in Snuffer’s teachings. He believes both mental illness and LGBT identity “are caused primarily by devils and unclean spirits” (Podcasts 055 and 056). He also believes many others are afflicted by these supernatural forces, and pleads with those holding the priesthood to cast out those entities.
Brethren, we need you to become informed, and rise up in the power of your priesthood. One of the first things that you’ll do as you start to exercise that magnificent power will be to liberate those who are afflicted with unclean spirits and devils. Gotta do it…. Your wives and your children are suffering, many of them. You’d be surprised how many phone calls and text messages that I get from sisters who recognize this affliction within the family and are just desperate to see it stopped, and don’t know what to do. So we get on the phone and we talk to husbands, and we try to give scripture passages. I’m no guru on this. I don’t profess to be anything but I know what the brethren taught in the early days, and we need to just do what they were doing! (Podcast 056: Layton Utah Conference, about 45:38)
Personal Note
I like studying and blogging about these different movements in Mormonism, but this one hit too close to home. I was grateful to finally see a conversation online about those influenced by Mike Stroud’s podcasts. As one who has mental illness, I’m really uncomfortable with relying on casting out evil forces rather than seeking medical help for these conditions. And explaining LGBT issues via demonic possession is a nightmare (I can’t see the Brethren backing this, no matter how anti-gay marriage they are).
Questions:
- Have you heard of Mike Stroud’s podcasts?
- Do you think Brother Stroud’s variation on Snuffer’s beliefs will be more enticing to churchmembers?
- What do you predict for the future? Is this movement a flash in the pan, or something that will endure?
- Any thoughts on the fact that Denver Snuffer’s teachings have inspired more than one fringe movement in the Church?
Wheat & Tares 
Interesting. I’m 100% with you on his (awful) encouragement of casting out devils to ‘cure’ mental illness and homosexuality. Ugh.
I find that I like other aspects of the way he thinks though. I love individuals seeking out God themselves. I love searching out a higher (more personal) law. At the same time I’m not a fan of using a podcaster as a guide in doing that. But then again I’m rather fed up with being told to just trust and follow the Brethern.
In fact, I wonder if such LDS ‘gurus’ are not popping up as a reaction to the push to Follow the Prophet. For those who don’t fit in the mold the church leadership are presenting, I can see why someone like him is totally appealing.
It looks like he might be following the pattern set by Julie Rowe–targeting preppers, teaching some fairly crazy stuff, but being very careful to not actually criticize the leaders of the church. It’s a formula for making sure one’s not excommunicated and being a false prophet all at once.
Thanks for the heads-up. Given my stake, there’s a decent chance they’ll be inviting him to come give a fireside in the near future.
ReTx, “I wonder if such LDS ‘gurus’ are not popping up as a reaction to the push to Follow the Prophet.” Not sure it’s a reaction to that per se. Denver’s first book came out in 2006. I feel like the hammer really came down on following the prophet with the 2013-2015 excommunications of Snuffer, Kelly, Waterman, Dehlin, etc. The Follow the Prophet thing exacerbated the problem, though. When you have people saying we’re trusting too much in the arm of flesh, and your local leader says, “Don’t worry about it. Just trust the Brethren,” it proves the point.
There seems to be a parallel with these strengthening right-wing fringe groups and those from the early 1990s. I blame more a polarized atmosphere in politics for the rising appeal of these groups. There was a massive political component in those early 1990s groups (risk factors being circulated among church leaders were membership in the John Birch Society and believing the government was corrupt in addition to obsession with food storage, mysteries, and the second coming). Anytime the church takes a remotely liberal position (or anything that seems to run counter to past church leaders like Benson), right-wingers are more likely to believe the brethren are going apostate.
Elder Nelson’s recent talk emphasizing being taught by Christ seems to back off the Follow the Prophet rhetoric, but it only fuels those who are seriously into the Second Comforter stuff. Church leaders are between a rock and a hard place on this.
Tim, I agree this is similar to Julie Rowe’s tactic of trying to stay under the radar. Still, the brethren were able to reign back her appeal by putting her book on the CES spurious materials list. Now that Stroud is actually publishing his transcripts in book form, the brethren might be able to take the same muted approach.
Can I send you an email???
I have an entire document written that outlines his various false teachings. It doesn’t cover all his podcasts but his most popular ones.
Has John Pratt moved away from mainstream too? I used to enjoy his work on the Meridian site. Hard to keep up with all the variations, thanks for this report.
I following the Lord’s appointed leaders. It isn’t hard to do. If we choose to seek to meet the Savior in this life as Moroni did, we are not out of harmony with the Lord’s appointed leaders teachings. We can have a personal relationship with the Savior, that is what the Book of Mormon teaches. How that is manifest varies, but seeking to know the Savior is encouraged, even commanded in scripture.
38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment–seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.
39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;
40 And only a few have I written, because of my weakness in writing.
41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen. Ether 12:38-41
Acw,
Yeah, John Pratt seems to have allied himself with Denver Snuffer. In his presentation at the Boise conference, he kept referring to Snuffer by his alternate name, “David the Servant.”
Jared,
Elder McConkie said seeing the Savior in this life was one of the blessings of the priesthood (October 1977). According to the Boise Rescue fireside, the brethren seem to be more concerned that questionable means are being used to achieve a perfectly appropriate goal.
Jared, I didn’t go into it as much in my post, but Brother Stroud advocates trying different methods to interact with the supernatural (like building altars, for example). Even though he teaches to follow the Spirit in the process, the Brethren tend to consider some methods more appropriate than others.
Hmmm, So many people, so many new versions of the gospel, all claiming to revelation, but none of them agreeing on the points of doctrine. I had not heard of Mike Stroud before. But I do not take much time in reading about those types of things and people. I bought into Thomas S. Monson as a prophet and sustained him because I was prompted to do so by the spirit. I don’t mind the idea of a person receiving blessing to help with mental illness, but in my case if that were to be driven out, it would put me on the other side of the veil. Now if I did not still have responsibilities here in this life to a wonderful wife and a wonderful granddaughter, that would be acceptable, but as it is I would rather that I seek the help of professionals when I feel overwhelmed.
There is no one forcing anyone to “follow the prophets” but I feel comfortable in doing so, along with my own personal prayers for inspiration. I have only messed up when I failed to do so.
Glenn
I was wondering if Mike Stroud had been influenced by Denver Snuffer. They both teach that some of the early brethren hijacked the Restoration by creating a New Testament church. Brother Stroud also teaches that we have gone astray by teaching that faith in Christ is the first principle of the gospel. He says it is the Second Comforter.
Snuffer teaches that the Aaronic priesthood is a cursing priesthood. Stroud teaches that the Melchizedek priesthood is an administrative priesthood.
His popularity among good Latter-day Saints is scary. But, I guess that is why the Lord warned the elect about deception in the last days. Who better to deceive the elect than someone who is an active member of the church.
I’ve listened to the majority of Mike’s podcasts. I’m no scriptorian. I’m not master of the gospel. I’m just a person who tries to follow what the Spirit teaches me and not the philosophies of men (or women). That said, I don’t agree everything that Mike teaches. There are quite a few things though that I do agree with. We are taught to “seek learning, even by study and also by faith” (D&C 88:118). Mike has done that and he shares his feeling and opinions. We then get to decide if we like what he shares and to incorporate it into ourselves or not. And just because he teaches one thing we don’t like, doesn’t mean the rest of what he teachers is wrong. Mary Ann writes this article with the attitude that Mike is just another prepper zealot trying to take people out of the church. That’s very interesting because he doesn’t talk about prepping in his podcasts. He does talk about obedience to what we’ve been taught and seeking the Spirit for personal revelation. She also implies that he is just another Denver Snuffer trying to lead people out of the church and create a following. Nothing could be further from the truth. What he shares and teaches says the same thing the brethren do: get to the temple, seek the Lord, follow the Spirit. He never says that he is the only truth or the brethren are wrong. He shares what he has learned and what his feeling are and what the Spirit has taught him and that has nothing to do with leaving the church, not listening to the brethren, or being some prepper zealot.
Mary Ann’s true reason for not liking Mike comes out in the personal note. “As one who has mental illness, I’m really uncomfortable with relying on casting out evil forces rather than seeking medical help for these conditions.” So, because he teaches that Satan is abound in the world and causing issues, then he is bad dodo? Have you ever read the New Testament? Most of Christ’s “healings” were done by casting out Spirits! Satan is strong and still here and causes issues far beyond what we think he does. Brigham Young basically said that you never get sick except that Satan is behind it. Do I think that people shouldn’t get medical help for their issues? No, I don’t. That is a good place to start and there is much that God has inspired for those in the medical field. Do I think it is the end all be all and people should be drugged all their lives? Absolutely not! THAT is the arm of flesh and we are taught to not lean on the arm of flesh and relying on the wisdom (and philosophies) of man. God has all the answers why someone has mental illness or even has LGBT tendencies. He is the one that should be directing you, not the doctor. I know people who use medications every day for all sorts of things. I also know people who have been healed from many issues, including mental illness, that haven’t popped a pill to do so. Trusting in the Spirit and relying on God is the answer.
Ben, thanks for sharing your viewpoint.
it’s a fine line that anyone who make some form of communication about spiritual things has to assess from time to time; is what you’re doing directing more people to God or to you? You can ostensibly believe that the people coming to you are ultimately going toward God, but that’s an illusory excuse.
For me, the belief that people are relying on medicines rather than God for healing is dangerous, setting people up to judge those who have not yet been healed. I’ve been proud of the times when I have been able to give a blessing that healed and the time that I was asked to cast spirits out of a home, but in none of those times would I believe that my works could overcome God’s will.
I, personally, would -love- to be healed. It’s something I’ve often prayed for and often gotten blessings for, but as of yet it’s not happened. Does that mean I’m not trusting enough, since I’m still on medication?
You don’t get to decide that another person hasn’t exercised enough faith. Saying that people with mental or physical or spiritual illnesses just need to have more faith is poisonous.
Frank, I don’t think that’s quite where Ben was going in his last paragraph. My impression was that he was saying we should seek to be led by the Spirit whether to look for medical assistance or spiritual assistance for a given issue.
I think all of us agree that spiritual assistance should be sought with any type of heartbreak or ailment, in addition to whatever else we might be led to consider. What concerns me is Brother Stroud says possession by evil spirits is the most *likely* cause behind any mental health problem. Where most mainstream members are 100% supportive of priesthood blessings being used in any hardship, Brother Stroud goes a step further. In his most recent podcast, for example, he said he received insight that people who self-harm through cutting are likely possessed by the spirits of ancient priests who showed devotion to their pagan gods via slashing themselves. He cast out one such Canaanite being from his granddaughter. I would, personally, not consider that the most *likely* scenario if I were presented with someone who was harming herself.
I really appreciate these posts by Mary Ann. I like both the content and the approach.
It’s funny, though — if you gather the negative angle of everybody’s arguments against each other, the situation can be framed thus: follow your own reasoning = exit the church through the left-hand door (secular, progressive), follow your own revelation/inspiration = exit the church through the right-hand door (conservative religious), follow the brethren’s reasoning/inspiration = remain in the church, but with neither your own reason or inspiration.
Personally, I appreciate community, but what I want most from church is light and knowledge from God. Yet, I’m highly suspicious of anyone claiming divine revelation for me, whether within or without the church.
I have listened to Mike Stroud a lot, and I would caution anyone reading this not to judge him if you have not listened to him. I consider myself fairly well read in the doctrines, and find he is very circumspect in only teaching doctrines he can back up with proper scriptural and historical information. When he does put forth a theory he is very careful to say that that is just what it is, a theory. He constantly warns the listeners not to become his “followers.” He refuses personal appearances for the most part, the Layton presentation an exception.
He encourages people to have their own spiritual answers experiences, and not rely on others, which is what Brigham Young taught. (And currently Elder Nelson.)
He considers criticizing others makes him “an accuser” which is a tool of the dark side, and strives not to do it. He feels that we should be advocates for the good, like the Savior. Some have criticized him for not condemning others like Snuffer (who I have never read.) but I think it’s a personal choice, not collusion. Since listening to him I feel I have a much greater understanding of the temple ceremonies, that nature of the spirit, and why I need to serve in the church. So for me personally, I have become a better person.
Is he a little gruff or opinionated? Yes he is. Does he have his own theories? Yes and he is not the first. I can tell you that even “the brethren” are like that sometimes.
As a people we are very critical of mob violence. I hope we won’t start making baseless accusations of apostasy based on a few quotes and assume we can libel his character because it suits the story we make up about him. That is the nature of a mob.
He has found a lot of wonderful doctrinal information in his years of study of the gospel and wants to share it. I know several people who have benefited greatly from it, including myself. If he is wrong about something, I feel it is my responsibility to discover it, because I feel he is acting in good faith. If the Lord upbraideth not, (find fault) with those seeking answers, why should we?
Sam, I agree we should go to the source to make our own judgments, which is why I try to source my comments so people can go back to the originals. I linked to his podcasts in the post, but it might not have been clear: http://mstroud.podomatic.com
If people aren’t big into podcasts, you can access transcripts of all but his most recent podcast here: http://briscoefamily.com/links.php
There is also a topical index of all his podcasts on that same page (listed as Podcast 059).
Mary Ann, thank you for this post. I have only recently discovered Bro. Stroud’s podcasts and have learned some good stuff from his knowledge of the scriptures. Sometimes I’ve been a little leery of something he says, usually something that he clearly states is his own interpretation of scripture. I really like that he states it’s his interpretation on a few points. But mostly he is a right-down-the-strait-and-narrow-path teacher of the gospel.
I know someone who was his Seminary student back in the day. He speaks very highly of Bro. Stroud and says he and Sister Stroud currently serve in the Snowflake temple with his parents.
Also, my take on his teachings of unclean spirits was not that people afflicted with mental illness and disorders should not seek professional help, but that those involved should not forget to seek the Lord concerning the possibility of unclean spirits clinging to an aflicted person. I took it to mean, don’t think the only door available is counseling and medication–seek the Lord to know if cleansing a loved one from an unclean spirit is another avenue of help. I admit so many decades have passed where we’ve left such notions behind as “witch-doctoring” that I felt squirmy at first listen. But I studied the scriptural references, pondered, prayed on it, listened again, and I think there’s truth in *some*instances in these principles Jesus taught.
I recommend caution whenever we learn from anyone. Any. One.
But I haven’t heard anything so far that would make me think Bro. Stroud is anything but a valiant supporter of our leaders and of the gospel. His teachings on the temple have been a particular blessing to me. However, I have only listened to about a third of his podcasts so I can’t say I’m an expert on him by any means. But thus far he has strengthened my testimony and helped me draw closer to the Lord. Thus I give him a thumbs up at this time.
Keep the posts coming, Mary Ann. I appreciate your taking the time to investigate these corners of Mormondom for us.
It’s becoming clear that some commenters have not bothered to read the Robert Norman post. By nature of his service in CES, his missions, and institute teaching, Brother Stroud has become a spiritual mentor to many people. He is not seeking a following, but he *has* a following nevertheless. That is why CES instructors have such a heavy burden and responsibility to keep up with *current* teachings of the Brethren, the best LDS scholarship available, and not to teach outdated or “quirky” doctrines (according to Elder Ballard’s 2016 CES address). When Brother Stroud says he is giving his opinion, his opinion carries a *lot* of implied institutional authority.
The other factor is revelation. When you claim to have received information from heavenly messengers (or are relaying information from other people who have been taught be heavenly messengers), those ideas carry a *lot* of heavenly authority. That is why people trust Denver Snuffer’s revelations, and why some of those revelations have been recently canonized by the Remnant movement.
Brother Stroud always hedges his critiques of the Brethren by saying he is not critiquing them. But he clearly disapproves of the position the church has taken to “tolerate” LGBT people, and would prefer the brethren go back to declaring it a sin so we can actually *cure* the condition via priesthood power. Brother Stroud believes that it is false doctrine when the Brethren suggest intensely spiritual experiences should be kept close to the chest. Brother Stroud advocates unorthodox practices when it comes to using consecrated oil and multiple brethren in priesthood blessings (and he is open that his methods are not condoned by the church). Brother Stroud recommends flexing priesthood muscles by blessing inanimate objects to gain control over the elements. He is not asking people to go *away* from the Brethren, he is asking people to go *above* the Brethren to seek visitations from heavenly messengers and God himself (something both Snuffer and Norman advocated). In process of doing that, he advocates experimentation in interacting with the supernatural. He teaches that people are currently receiving ordinances from translated beings, those returning from the City of Enoch. He says another preson received revelation that familiar spirits are ancestors or other family members tormenting people, causing health problems.
The most spiritual and life-changing perspectives are not coming from 30+ years in CES. They are coming from what he has learned in the last decade since his eyes have been opened from Denver Snuffer’s teachings. His understanding of scripture and the temple has changed to reflect that new spiritual understanding. Teaching that both the Book of Mormon and temple endowment are guidebooks to meeting Christ in this life is from Snuffer.
Denver Snuffer was inspired to share his spiritual experiences and understanding in 2006, but he was not excommunicated till late 2013 (and that was because of his publication Passing the Heavenly Gift where he suggested church leaders were still under condemnation from something that happened in the early church). Snuffer never sought a following, and even today does not claim to lead the Remnant movement (even though the revelation of the covenant made between those in the Remnant movement and God was revealed through him). Those in the Remnant movement take offense at being called Snufferites and do not claim to follow him.
Denver Snuffer originally desired to share his knowledge because he felt compelled to do so by God, same as Brother Stroud. I believe that Brother Stroud is completely sincere in trying to help people and sees himself as a humble tool to help people learn how to better grow closer to God. I do *not* believe he is seeking to lead people out of the church. But based on the similarities *I* see among him, Denver Snuffer, and Robert Norman, it is a possibility that his *teachings* will do it, nevertheless.
Goodness, I had no idea about many things you’ve listed in your most recent comment, Mary Ann. I am not familiar with either Denver Snuffer or Robert a Norman. I don’t have a clue what the remnant movement is. I thought because the whole church is such a very tiny percentage of the global population that the remnant is the church. And I know and love quite a few gay people and hope and pray for further acceptance of these loved ones in the church. So I guess I know even less of Mike Stroud than I thought.
Also, he mentioned in one podcast something about those brothers and sisters who are being awakened and desiring/seeking to be one of the 144,000 whom he said will be made translated terrestrial beings. Whaaat? I thought Joseph said these would be High Priests chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel, evenly divided. Men chosen,, not women. I’ve never read of a prophet saying we can seek to be chosen for something. Did I misunderstand him? Does anyone know about this 144,000 to be chosen?
Thanks again for more information Mary Ann.
PS: There’s an LDS Prepper Movement? Like the show on tv and apocalypse and stuff like that? Or do you just mean like my Stake and Ward Emergency Preparedness leaders?
More extreme than typical ward emergency prep specialists. Heck, I’ve served as a ward emergency prep specialist. No, these are the people Elder Cook was talking about in the October 2016 conference:
“Gospel extremism is when one elevates any gospel principle above other equally important principles and takes a position that is beyond or contrary to the teachings of Church leaders. One example is when one advocates for additions, changes, or primary emphasis to one part of the Word of Wisdom. Another is expensive preparation for end-of-days scenarios. In both examples, others are encouraged to accept private interpretations. “If we turn a health law or any other principle into a form of religious fanaticism, we are looking beyond the mark.”
Brother Stroud was huge into prepping prior to his mission to the Philippines, and then an experience there led he and his wife to focus more on spiritual preparation. Some friends of theirs wrote about Brother Stroud’s attitude before and after in a paper titled “Exchanging Bullets for Bubbles: Towards a More Exalted Sphere.” Here’s the direct link to the PDF: http://briscoefamily.com/stroud/A_02_exchanging_bullets_for_bubbles.pdf
The 144,000 stuff comes from John Pontius’ book “Visions of Glory.” You can read a very long review/critique of the book at FairMormon: https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publications/spencers-visions-of-glory
Here’s the pertinent info on the 144,000 from that review:
Despite having said that the 144,000 are called and set apart by Christ himself, Spencer later says that the 144,000 are
“All those who had been called to gather in the elect of God by use of the portals and seer stones. As more people were translated and gained the seer stones, they became members of the 144,000. It was not a calling from the Church because it involved no presidency or stewardship. It was the result of a lifetime of spiritual evolution” (175).
Thus, the truly spiritually mature (such as Spencer) achieve this rank by “a lifetime of spiritual evolution,” and can exercise this supreme priesthood power and authority without being called to do so. He claims they exercise a supernal priesthood function, and yet they have “no stewardship.” It again appears as if Spencer sees himself as part of a spiritual elite helping the Church but not governed by its principles of priesthood, presidency, and order.
(End of quote)
As far as the Remnant movement associated with Denver Snuffer, there was a really in-depth Salt Lake Trib article on it last month:
http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/08/27/denver-snuffers-offshoot-is-drawing-away-mormons-with-the-mantra-god-can-talk-to-you-too-but-will-these-freewheeling-fellowships-last/
The media publicity was due to the most recent “Covenant of Christ” conference in Boise at the beginning of this month where that loose federation of fellowships voted to canonize a reworked set of Standard Works (increase JST material in the OT, put Lectures of Faith back in, totally rework the D&C, etc.). I wrote a post about it when they first announced the scripture project last March.
If you wanted to read the proceedings of that recent conference, you can go to their website directly: http://www.covenantofchristconference.com/past/2017/Boise/index.php
On Saturday you had a number of people speaking. I found the Scripture Committee Update and Restoration Archives Announcement most fascinating. Saturday night was John Pratt’s presentation on the Revelation 12 sign. Sunday it was just Denver Snuffer talking, so you can get a feel for his style in his remarks (opening remarks, covenant prayer, answer to prayer, covenant, and closing remarks).
On a plane trip over the weekend I was able to listen to a few of the Mike Stroud podcasts. It was interesting to listen to. I can’t say I bit on any of it as it felt a bit like the kind but know it all older guy in High Priests that would talk for hours on the subject if you let him. But I can see how the older guy in High Priests might be interested in what he preaches.
Wow….lot of crazy stuff going on in the church. Thanks for the info and links, Mary Ann.I think. Kinda wish I didn’t know some of it. I read it all and wonder what-the-heck is happening. And a special thanks for keeping us more informed overall. I love Wheat and Tares.
Thank you for this highly informative article..I’ve read a bit of Snuffer’s writings and have a friend who is quite taken by Snuffer. This guy is also of interest.I think I would like to met him. IMaybe take him backpacking into the high Uintahs for a couple of weeks if I could get my sherpa ( my beast of a son) to carry most of the weight and we would really get to know him heart and soul around a campfire.
My thoughts on him at this early point is based on the realization that he is not as bad as I am. We are all a work in progress and it is going to take many lifetimes for people like me to get anywhere. I wish for a LDS church culture that allows a man or woman plenty of room to be wrong and to be quickly or slowly redirected by others. I have gotten into discussions on this site and I have learned much and had my thinking changed, hopefully for the best. By Mary Ann to mention one of many.
It seems to me our leaders are too reluctant to let this process of growth and change happen and try to keep everyone in a tight corral. At the same time they lack the confidence to directly engage these people. We the sheeple of the church put the leaders too high on a pedestal and take their every word as infallible, when some of them have been just as wrong in the past as those who get axed in the present. We should allow them to be wrong and to grow and change.
J. Golden Kimball used to say: I have not stayed on the straight and narrow path, but I have tried to cross it as many times as possible.
Mary Ann,
I am truely sorrowful for your unbelief in many of the true doctrines of Christ as explained in the Book of Mormon.
Any of God’s children may experience those things taught throughout the book if they can drop their unbelief and follow the precepts that are contained therein and clarified by Mike’s teaching. It is a sad reality that many would rather stand and kick against the picks than put forth the faith and effort to experiment and receive..
God bless you and all that listen to or read Mikes lessons to listen by the spirit and be encouraged to plant the seed.
Lovingly, your brother,
Roy Barrus
Roy, I appreciate your concern about my spiritual welfare. God bless you as well.
I haven’t visited Wheat and Tares (or any other Mormon Blogs for a long time. I come back to them today and what do I find ? Denver Snuffer Mike Stroud, Robert Norman, seer stones, Rev 12 sign, portals, preppers, people receiving ordinances from translated beings, foot zoning (whatever the hell that is)and reiki as expressions of Christ’s healing power. What happened to people just simply trying to follow the Saviours example of love and service in the New Testament? Wow, talk about looking beyond the mark, this stuff is off the scale!!! Maybe it’s a sign of spiritual boredom, maybe it’s a sign of instability….and maybe Korihor was right (even a broken watch is right twice a day)and these are the effects of a frenzied mind!!!
JackGB – I think you’ll find if you stick around a bit that most W&T writers and readers reject all of the things you pointed out. That doesn’t mean I (at least) don’t want to understand them, especially as they appear to be gaining momentum. I’m not sure calling me (or those that actually do follow Denver Snuffer, etc.) spiritually bored, unstable, or of frenzied mind is either helpful or Christ-like. It certainly isn’t following the Saviors example of love and service.
ReTx, I didn’t read his statement as accusing the W&T community, more that there’s some really crazy stuff happening among churchmembers right now.
You could be right. I apologize for over-reacting.
Mary Ann, ReTx, I read W&T from the get go and followed it for a long time, (remember Brent Beal’s The view from the Cheap Seats’ and Andy Munzer’s film reviews and Hawkgirrls posts?) . I followed By Common Consent and Millenial Star too but I lost interest in Mormon themed blogs a couple of years ago. Yesterday I thought I’d call by and see what was going on. I read Mary Ann’s excellent post on Elder Ballard’s conference talk and followed the links through to this article about Mike Stroud. Believe me it was a bit of a shock and Mary Ann is exactly right, my comment was about the “really crazy stuff happening among church members right now”. I live in the UK and the Mormon fringe is much less prominent here than in Utah, in fact it’s impact on the average church member is minimal, if it figures on their radar at all. I didn’t mean to cause offence but from the other side of the pond, where religion is a much more private affair anyway, this ‘translated beings, portals and self-harmer’s being possessed by the spirits of ancient Canaanite priests stuff just sounds bats**t crazy.
Pricks, Roy, kick against the pricks.
I haven’t read all of the other comments so I am not sure if someone else has already said this but I don’t personally see myself as a right wing member. I desire to follow God and His prophets. I have had a faith crisis in the last few years. My husband left the church a little over 2 years now which caused me to look, yet again, at my beliefs and make a choice. I have 2 young children and want to feel confident in my faith before I use it as the focus to raise them…especially when it could be a sore subject between my spouse and I. It was by hours of study and prayer that I was finally able to regain my testimony. I then became quite apathetic again. It was after I heard a few of Mike Stroud’s podcasts that I felt a greater desire to dive into the scriptures and increase my temple attendance.
There are always going to be flaws in man but I feel personally that our job is not to accuse. I am grateful for the faith of those who seek to build up the kingdom of God and reach for Christ.-no matter where it leads them. That is not my personal business. I need to constantly repent and seek the Spirit to determine what is true and what could lead me away from my Savior and yours. It is our job to seek and ask that we may not be deceived. I am sure we all love God so I do not feel that we need to criticize others for their beliefs. I believe that Mike Stroud is a good man striving to follow the Savior. I say good for him. And if he has been used to lead others to Christ…then God is using him as an instrument to help others to increase their desire to follow the Savior. Mike has never set himself up as an authority or someone to follow. He always redirects others to the scriptures, the Spirit and the Prophets. He recently announced that he is taking down his podcasts so that he no longer will have the role that others have put him in as an authority and leader. He said this has been like another mission for them…to teach and it has come to an end. I am personally grateful for that mission.
Michael Stroud is amazing. He has dedicated his life to helping others come unto Christ. There is nothing evil in any of his podcasts. I have had experiences with both the evil spirits causing mental illness and being able to cast them out and feel better. In the New Testament Christ did the same and encouraged us to cast the evil spirits out too. Michael Stroud never says all mental illness comes from evil. He just says we cannot see the full extent of Satan’s influence and organized hosts in our life. I feel like he is opening our eyes to see the war being fought beyond the veil and on the earth. God bless Michael Stroud! He stands as Samuel the Laminate calling us to follow Christ.
Lauri, his stated opinion is that *most* mental illness comes from devils and unclean spirits, not *all*.
I first met Mike in New Jersey when we was serving a mission there. He had a great impact on the ward there as he taught institute. He stared a podcast because members in NJ asked him to so they could learn more. I think where Mike Stroud got into some trouble is when the podcast became so popular and he expressed some personal opinions.. he taught many truths but when he published/printed his opinions to such a large audience it can be misleading to some. The church wants people to make have their own opinion and there is nothing wrong with expressing it. But once you’d start to put it in writing you can get into trouble. His last podcast seems to reflect that he recognized this and has gone in a different direction. Mike Stroud is a great man and has and will continue to bless many people. I believe his teachings woke some people up to the gospel. 90% of his teachings can be backed up with teachings of the brethren. I would not compare him to a Denver Snuffer as he never speaks I’ll of the Church or its leaders and bears his testimony of it often. I simply think he is a very knowledgeable institute teacher who’s audience got too big too fast.
Mary Ann,
I wish I had the time to respond to each of your comments and the comments of others – but I don’t. But I do have time to respond to your last comment above, which you have now made twice… “Lauri, his stated opinion is that “most” mental illness comes from devils and unclean spirits, not “all.” This is not true. Brigham Young said that… and Mike was quoting him.
Now, my two cents. I have listened carefully, taking notes, to EVERY podcast Mike Stroud has posted. Like someone above has stated, he has NEVER sought a following and has discouraged this. He has ALWAYS directed people to “don’t believe me, take this to the Lord.” He has ALWAYS supported the Prophets and Apostles and held them up as such. Ninety-nine percent of what he has taught has been straight out of the scriptures and quotes from the Prophets to help connect dots. When he does offer up an “opinion,” or suggests that “the spirit taught be” such and such – he is always careful to call it “his opinion.”
Mike Stroud us extremely knowledgable, has spent a LIFETIME in the scriptures and is one of the most genuine, humble, reasonable, serving and charitable people I know of. Has he tried to open his students to some of the more glorious, sacred truths found in the scriptures? Yes!!! Has he taught the Doctrine of Christ? Yes!!! Were his eyes opened up years ago to some of these truths from those who SINCE THEN have gone astray? Yes!!! But originally, Denver Snuffer only taught what the Book of Mormon and past and present Prophets have taught – that we can come to know Christ personally, and we should be striving to do so because he is the ONLY one who can save us. That is pure truth… and Elder Nelson’s and Eyring’s recent admonitions testify of the same.
The brethren want to be careful that people aren’t being lead astray. I get it. And people like Denver Snuffer deserve the formal discipline they received – and had it coming to them. He and his followers have been deceived. It’s unfortunate. But I would NOT put Mike Stroud in the same camp, and anyone who does is clearly coming from a place of concern, fear and bias against ANY who may be teaching things we don’t hear in the typical Gospel Doctrine class, or even Gospel Essentials. It’s amazing to me, but too many members are so fearful that we might “let go of the iron rod” and lose our way… that they forget we must “Press Forward” until we get to the tree.
Mike is NOT taking down his podcasts because he’s retracting what he has taught. He is taking them down because he may have gone a little far in sharing things that are a little too sacred for an audience of millions throughout the world – due to the medium (podcast). I get it. The audience grew too fast and large for these sacred truths and mysteries.
There are sacred truths awaiting those who have “ears to hear” and desire higher blessings. The prophets have taught that “we live way below our priviledges and below the Lord’s expectations.” If we press forward and seek revelation, we run the risk of being deceived and we must take the utmost care to have the spirit of discernment. But if we DON’T press forward – we are ALREADY DECEIVED. This is a personal journey for people – but I find nothing but good coming from a man like Mike Stroud – who was willing to teach what he has learned – and then say, “now go study for yourself.”
Mike Stroud podcasts have changed my life and made a HUGE difference in my relationship with the Lord. Sometimes it takes a pioneer – or someone willing to speak up and share in order for the rest of us to awaken in some ways – and see what is staring us in the face. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND his podcasts. I have learned for myself the importance of EVERY WORD in a verse of scripture, and how I must get on the path of studying and asking to be taught by the Lord. Stroud has helped me plant my feet more firmly on the path – and to have the confidence to seek to know my Savior personally. He calls to us, he is waiting and he has already give me a very clear and powerful message that he’s pleased with my desire, and invitation to continue and not look back.
Just because there are Denver Snuffers out there… and some have been deceived… that’s no reflection on Mike Stroud. We do ourselves a terrible dis service when we reject things too easily because of preconceived notions and negative bias, or when we read blog posts like this which paint a negative light and keep people from some pearls. That is not meant to be a slam – I just feel bad for people who miss out on so much because they read a “review” like this and take the easy path and buy into the opinions of others – instead of finding out for themselves. I could hardly believe many of the things I’ve read above (and I read every post)… and how others can have such a different opinion than I.
I LOVE the church. These men are prophets with Priesthood Keys. I’m in 100%. Mike feels the same way. He is NOT a follower of Snuffer, Julie Rowe and many others of the same ilk. I’m grateful for Mike – and what I’ve learned from him. Both he and the spirit have REALLY taught me a lot in the past 18 months.
PressForward, in the Layton Conference at about 71:20, during the Q&A part, Mike said, “Well, my experience is that depression, in fact I feel that depression, discouragement–I’m not gonna say that there isn’t such a thing as chemical imbalance, there isn’t such a thing as bipolarism, I’m not gonna say that. But I believe, this is Mike Stroud 16 verse 4, that the vast majority of these afflictions that we hear about, the people taking medication after medication after medication, are a direct result of the influence of these beings. They need to be released and sent away.” It feels like you guys seriously don’t believe I’ve actually listened to the guy.
Mike Stroud seems like a nice, genuine guy. I don’t believe he ever sought a following, but his position as a former CES instructor gives him credibility and trust that other people don’t have. CES instructors, by their very position, are spiritual mentors. That is a fact. And that is also why Elder Ballard was so clear about their responsibility to teach *current* doctrines and interpretations. From his 2016 CES devotional: “In teaching your students and in responding to their questions, let me warn you not to pass along faith-promoting or unsubstantiated rumors or outdated understandings and explanations of our doctrine and practices from the past. It is always wise to make it a practice to study the words of the living prophets and apostles; keep updated on current Church issues, policies, and statements through mormonnewsroom.org and LDS.org; and consult the works of recognized, thoughtful, and faithful LDS scholars to ensure you do not teach things that are untrue, out of date, or odd and quirky.”
You say he quotes Brigham Young, and that makes everything okay. But this appeared in a 2005 Ensign article “Myths about Mental Illness” by Elder Alexander Morrison: “2. Someone is to blame for mental illness. It is a common human tendency to blame others or oneself for whatever goes wrong in life. Many victims of mental illness wear themselves out emotionally by futile attempts to remember something they, their parents, or someone else might have done that resulted in their suffering. Some blame their problem on demonic possession. While there is no doubt that such has occurred, let us take care not to give the devil credit for everything that goes awry in the world! Generally speaking, the mentally ill do not need exorcism; they require treatment from skilled health-care providers and love, care, and support from everyone else.” https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/10/myths-about-mental-illness?lang=eng
Which do you think is more reflective of the church’s *current* position on mental illness? How about the church’s official page on mental illness? Guess how many times devils and unclean spirits are mentioned there? https://www.lds.org/mentalhealth?lang=eng
Commenter Onewhoiswatching shared this link about Mike Stroud on a different post: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47011&hilit=Stroud
I noticed yesterday that Mike Stroud is taking down his podcast.
The last podcast makes it sound like to me that an authority asked him to give some clarification as to where he was wrong before he took them down.
Thoughy you might like to know.
Wonderdog, thank-you. Yes, the freedomforum link that I shared was a discussion talking about that latest development. Mike had previously announced he was taking down the podcasts so that he could devote more time to his family. The latest podcast clarified that he’d been in discussions with his church leaders and they had indicated some areas where he got off track a bit or were discussing sensitive subjects. He specified those topics “too sacred” as well as doctrine/speculation that was “inappropriate.” His podcasts will remain up for two more days, till November 15th. The PDF transcriptions of his podcasts have already been taken down, though the books will continue to be published with the podcast transcriptions. Some topics will be removed from books yet to be published, from my understanding. Just to be clear, though, I’ve found no indication Mike was ever under any disciplinary action.
Amazing times indeed! Treasure up the word, take the Holy Spirit as your guide, the answers to all of those sincerely questioning are found in the word, by searching the word diligently you learn His voice, His sheep know His voice, let go of the idols of the heart, let the atonement work 24/7 in your life, it is the remedy for all that is right and wrong! Some are so very near the truth yet they miss the mark because they are looking for someone other than who the Lord has foretold will return to guide His people, it is as clear as crystal ! Truly! D & C, Discern and See! D & C = the Key! Knowledge of His word is the key! Joseph is the servant that will lead those who have purified hearts to the striaght gate , where Jesus Christ is.! So . . . Do you preach repentance and publish peace? Repentance brings peace, repentance is true peace, the atonement(at one with) this truth, the Spirit of prophecy , the pure love of Jesus Christ, CHARITY, how do we truly treat (br)others? In love or in judgement? We are not to be bothered with any deception and will not be deceived at all “IF” we treasure up His word and live each moment being worthy of the Spirit 24/7, Repentence And Peace, RAP, I like RAP!
Scary to think that you obviously believed to be the judge of what is true and what is not. Who do you think you are that you can speak for the brethren? Self righteous judge! How dare you behaving like you hold the key to any truth? Know your place!
Your methods remind me of the catholic inquisition
I believe that the reason we see groups like this is because we as life long members of the L.D.S. church are drowning in the “milk” and long for the meat. Good people with a reasonable education that come forth and share what they know are always a welcome sight when you are starving for sustenance to keep you alive in the gospel . especially for those of us who study the scriptures often if not daily and can not quite get the ‘ Big Picture” Mike Stroud gave a lot of good correlated information straight from the scriptures & from the prophets quotations . Yes he gave his opinions also but when he did he told us it was from ” Mike Stroud chapter 37″ ETC. He never once claimed he was the end all solution to the gospel , he just gave us things to ponder and pray about and listen to the spirit. Those were always the words he spoke on all of the podcasts. another thing for this forum to think upon is the fact that we do not know exactly why the brethren ask him to consider not doing this . I believe for myself that it was more than likely that the hardhearted and stiff necked and blind individuals that can’t hear the spirit and discern truth and cast off untruth cried to the brethren and the brethren more than likely ask him to reconsider not doing the podcasts for the sake of those individuals. After listening to nearly everyone of Mike’s podcasts I can say without reservation I heard ” nothing ” that was not in the scriptures and or the prophets quotes . other than his own opinion which he always stated was his own. He brought to the table understanding by correlating and bringing together many different scriptures so as to put together a clearer understanding .. for those of you who believe you already have a clear understanding , I say bravo .. it could be some of us may need a little more help, or maybe some of you do to and are not willing to admit it. I say thank you to Mike Stoud for his help , clarifying and bringing together understanding to many subject matters . I said my piece …so now those of you who need to see things in a negative darkness and believe it is light have a great day commenting.
I found this to be very interesting. But my true feeling is it is a lot of to do about nothing. I have read mike strouds books . I found them uplifting and helpful for me in my Journey through life . I choose to believe what seems good and true to me and discard the rest. Why can’t we all do that and just go on with our own personal quest?