It has been over seven years since I first posted on Wheat&Tares as a guest with the “You’re the Bishop” series. I thought I would post them again, updated as needed.
So these are situations that actually happened to me as a Bishop. I was Bishop for six years in a medium sized ward in the South West. I’ve changed details enough where needed to preserve confidentially.
So let’s start out with this weeks installment of “You’re the Bishop”
There is a young woman in your ward that is 16. She lives with a non-member mother that does not place any discipline on her. Her father is remarried and very active and lives out of town. The girl selected to live with her mother so she could pretty much do what she wants. She has several good friends in the ward, and craves the friendship and attention that she gets in church, so she attends quite regularly.
She is VERY well endowed, and wears very tight low cut tops to all church meetings. One gets quite a view when talking to her. As bishop you are on very good terms with her, and she has come to you several times with problems.
You’re The Bishop, what do you do?
- Do nothing
- You talk to her about her dress, asking her to wear something more appropriate for church.
- Ask the YW Pres to talk to her about her dress.
- Ask one of her good female friends her age to talk to her.
I’ll post a comment in a few days and let you know what I did.
Wheat & Tares 
Isn’t she already getting modesty shaming lessons in yw already? I guess it’s not taking
I was expecting the dilemma to be that someone in the ward had asked you to address this and how to tactfully shut them down. I’m surprised and discomfited that you would think you might need to “do something”. Obviously, #1.
I’d leave her alone and respect her choices.
Do nothing. An adult man shouldn’t be commenting on a teenage girl’s bosoms.
Do nothing.
As I read about her life and living situation, my thought is that she is looking for any way to be noticed, to be accepted and loved.
So often teenage girls get the message that they are only loved by parents and other authority figures if they look/act/achieve in certain ways. Often they will attempt to push some boundaries to find out where the parameters of that so-called unconditional love begin and end.
Once she can internalize that love and concern is truly unconditional by at least one authority figure in her life, she will figure out everything else.
Making any comment about her clothing has so many possibilities of harm and shame and so few possibilities for any sort of good outcome.
I’m with E. I was expecting that too. Nothing.
For me it would be to do nothing. The Bishop is not really her father thought he is the “father of the ward”. It is not the Bishop’s place to say anything.
Today I say go with option 1, for many reasons including the ones Damascene explained. Honestly, though, 6 or 7 years ago I probably would have said option 3. My views on this topic have evolved, and I think the broader conversation has as well.
Do nothing other than look her in the eyes and do your best to make sure she feels loved and accepted in the ward.
This reminds me of a podcast I listened to years ago (imagine me listening to a podcast!). It was recounting that a ward had baptized a lady in her last 20’s and it wasn’t until after she was baptized that they found out she was a stripper (or something close to that). Eventually an area authority was called in to help them decide what to do. His advice was, “love her – nothing more.” She figured out herself and a few months she switched to a new job. I can imagine if they had tried to even gently call her out she could have been offended. We need more area authorities like this guy.
In almost all cases I can think of, doing nothing is the best option.
Door Number 1, every single time. When I was a student, my ancient bishop thought he was the most appropriate person to comment on my delightfully well endowed chest. Still gives me the heebie jeebies 20 years on, “ahhh, we’re having this conversation because you’ve been looking at my boobs. Yes, tell me more about how I’m responsible for you not being able to control your eyes & thoughts.” Insert eye roll here.
Is there any pretence that it would be appropriate for the RS president to have a one to one conversation with a young man about how his tight trousers make her uncomfortable because she can see the outline of his physique?
This. Even the discussion of this is a great example of why my kids NEVER meet one on one with leaders.
Number 1. There isn’t an official dress-code for church services.
Modesty is an important principle. The way we dress definitely affects others, often it affects men in different ways than women expect. I think the principle of modesty would fall under “loving your neighbour as yourself” when you understand this. Many people don’t wish to understand it though.
However, as important as modesty is, it’s what I like to think of as a fine-tuning principle, sort of like using clean uplifting language. We don’t send out missionaries to teach the principle of modesty or speaking nicely. The real sellers for the gospel are love, Grace, the atonement of Jesus Christ, enabling power, forgiveness of sins, etc. She needs to be taught general principles like faith and repentance at this stage, not fine-tuning.
Don’t do anything. We should all be welcome at church no matter what we wear.
OK, time to jump in and defend myself! This happened 16 years ago, before the word “body shaming” was even a thing! Some more about the young women: her mother was very poor, and this YW wore pretty much the same low cut dress or blouse all the time. So I asked the YW Pres to see if said YW would like some new clothes. The ward would pay for them with Fast Offerings. I also told the YW Pres to let her pick her own clothes, but gently guild her towards clothes that would be appropriate for church. The YW Pres had teenage daughters, and could handle this in a way that would not hurt the YW in any way.
Would I do it different today? I don’t know. Everything came out well in the end, the YW got new clothes, and was never told her old clothes could be viewed as inappropriate by some in the ward.
Good call, Bishop Bill! Always important to know all the facts.
I’m glad there was tact and gentleness, and I’m sure your close relationship to the young woman helped you understand possible repercussions. We had a situation where a young woman was turned away from a stake dance because of cleavage. What those stake members didn’t understand was that we’d been working hard to get this 15-yr-old girl back involved in youth activities after giving up a baby for adoption through LDS services several months before, and her body was still going back down from a more mature physiology. One of the other YW leaders was able to dig around and find a cardigan in her car, but we were incredibly frustrated that we’d worked to ensure everything about the girl’s attire met the modesty standards only to have someone reject her because of subjective criteria.
Glory, it’s none of anyone’s business what anyone wears to church. Be grateful they come, each and every one.
I definitely would say #1, do nothing, but it’s true that if you go back 16 years, there probably was less likelihood that she was having modesty crammed down her throat since birth. There are doubtless some psychological reasons (and possibly just family dynamics or even lack of money & choices) that are behind her clothing choices. I would still say you never ever talk about these issues with a YW. You just love her and encourage everyone else to do the same, pretty much regardless of what year it was when it happened.
I’m glad that you didn’t just’ do nothing’. Just loving someone is good advice for the run of the mill members (who can make things worse) but for Bishops and RS presidents (those that have the means and inside knowledge) should go beyond to action.
As someone from a very poor background, whom had to wear practically rags to church many times, I can tell you that when I did get a nice outfit I felt relieved. I’m pretty sure she felt the same way.
Out of curiosity, but aren’t bishops mandated reporters? It seems like most paid and volunteer jobs are lately. If so, does the church offer any training?
Yes, Bishops in California are mandatory reporters. I got very little training, but did get a phone number to the the church’s law firm (McConkie and somebody….). I called them once when there was a possibility of me having to testify in a court case. It had to do with financial problems between two members. The lawyer said no, and to call them if I got a summons and they would get me out of it.
Bishops in California are mandatory reporters for child maltreatment, but nothing in the original posting suggests any maltreatment — being poor is not maltreatment. But regarding such mandatory reporting, California still recognizes the priest-penitent privilege for pastoral communications.
I hope bishops have stopped body shaming as seemed to happen 16 years ago. But what happened 16 years ago still affects people today.
Of course being poor does not equal maltreatment. I was just curious and never meant to suggest otherwise.
Instead, I was trying to offer a different perspective. That seeing an issue (such as a child wearing the same tattered low cut top/dress every week) can and should be used as an invitation by those in certain positions (such as a bishop) to offer assistance.
My experience with teenagers who push boundaries leads me to warn this allegorical Bishop #1 that if you have no meaningful (to the teen) way to enforce any consequences, then if you do anything perceived (by the teen) to be challenging, they are going to push the boundary even further. You will likely make the situation worse, possibly much worse. (Or better if you are one of the young men admiring the scenery).
OK, given (usually justified) cries of “love her” and “body shaming,” I must ask: How far is too far before the bishop should do other than # 1? More bosom? Midriff? Strapless? Nude? Or never?
Rockiesgma
If someone comes naked, then is it everybodys business?
Gadflown & Maelstrom:
You had to bring that up and remind me of a certain memorable event. Many years ago we had a rather opinionated and pleasantly crazy and attractive Swedish woman attending our ward, I will call her Julia. We had children of similar age and had her family over for dinner several times. Her lovely daughter became a teenager and hence subjected to numerous ardent modesty lessons which Julia did not find useful or amusing. Julia got mad and threatened the YW presidency that the next time this happened she was going to go naked for one week.
And Julia did. She skipped Sunday church meetings but she did deliver her mortified daughter to the YW meeting on Wednesday night and early morning seminary naked 5 times and ran a few errands around town which miraculously did not get her arrested. I was there that unforgettable Wednesday night and she just walked into the church not wearing one stitch like it was the entirely normal thing to do and carried on normal chit-chat conversations with anyone who happened to be there. Not one peep was heard from anyone about her attire, until she left.
I’m not sure what message was perceived by her daughter or her friends. Perhaps only that mother Julia is crazy and maybe also don’t do anything to stir her up; like wear immodest clothing that causes the leaders to give lessons about it. I don’t know.
Gadflown,
The sign outside says “public welcome” or something like that. All are welcome, no matter how dressed. For teaching children the “right” way to dress for church meetings, well, that responsibility rests with the parents. Bishops must not insert themselves between parents and their children.
Mike: I provided a theoretical counterexample because I didn’t think there was an actual one. Thanks for proving me wrong! From now on I’ll think of Julia as Hawthorne’s minister, but in the negative.
Important cultural commentary or no, should there have been more “peeps” (!) before Julia left?
Gadflown:
Perhaps. But you had to know this Julia. I doubt it would have done anything except make it worse. Maybe call the sheriff’s department.
Perhaps we could have enlisted the aid of her husband to whom she had covenanted to hearken and/or obey (as we have discussed elsewhere). But he grew up in San Fran California and went to Berkeley. He pretty much learned after more than a decade of marriage that there was really no reining in his wife on some things.
“My experience with teenagers who push boundaries . . . ” To me, this goes to the heart of the matter. We have no idea why she’s dressing as she is. It could be for any number of reasons, not necessarily rebelliousness. To name a few:
– She doesn’t have anything else, and they don’t have money to buy new things.
– These are her best clothes or she thinks she looks nice because she’s had compliments.
– She’s trying to get male attention or negative attention from leaders.
If it’s one of the first two, she will be devastated by the perceived criticism. If it’s the third, well, I guess it worked, but that’s up to her parents to deal with, not her youth leaders at church.
And addressing it could be for any number of motivations, each with its own baggage:
– The bishop’s own discomfort because she is attractive.
– The bishop’s concern for the male members of the flock having impure thoughts.
– The bishop’s concern for the example the girl is setting on other YW (and again, I would point back to on what deeper basis this concern must lie).
– The bishop’s concern for the girl’s self esteem and good choices.
If it’s one of the first two, leave it alone–you will only creep her out! If it’s the 3rd, really?? If it’s the 4th, fine, but that’s better for the parents to deal with, and don’t conflate clothing choices with a psychological diagnosis. Your best remedy is to show her she is loved and valued, and how does criticizing her clothing lead to that outcome?
What’s the sensitivity about addressing this with someone? If you’re dressed inappropriately at work, it will get address ed.
Maelstrom: 1) it’s church, not the work place (voluntary, you don’t get paid to be there–also she’s a teenager, not an adult employee–if you haven’t raised teens I can tell you that they are hypersensitive to criticism from authorities and nothing drives them away faster), 2) we say everyone is welcome, 3) the only stated dress code is to wear your best, and who’s to say this is not her best? She’s not violating some pre-written dress code, 4) it’s fraught because it’s an older man addressing a teenage girl, 5) what will be accomplished by addressing it? Answer: nothing good.
Angela C.
you can’t rule out addressing it because it’s a possible choice. People have to learn that in every situation there are rules and boundaries.
Maelstrom: “People have to learn that in every situation there are rules and boundaries.” I would counter that people have to learn that they don’t need to create rules and boundaries for every little thing.
I agree. People do have to learn there are rules and boundaries. They also have to know there are gates in the boundaries. Anyone can walk right out of the gate any time they want, mentally anyway. (Parents can force teens to come to church but it does little good if we fail to capture their hearts and minds). Just like at work you can quit your job if you don’t like the dress code..
In larger investment organizations they hire a few math and physics majors to do calculations using difficult new ideas from nonlinear dynamics that very few people know how to do. And you can spot them because they don’t wear suits and ties. They dress like the eccentric fashion bums that characterize those fields. And if anyone mentions their inappropriate attire they either laugh or leave. Teenagers can be the same way at church. The question, why am I here is often near the front of their minds.
you can’t rule out addressing it because it’s a possible choice. People have to learn that in every situation there are rules and boundaries.
Assuming, arguendo, that this is true, then the responsibility lies with the parents to teach the child, not the bishop. The bishop might (maybe) share his concern about the child with the child’s parent, but that’s as far as he should go.
Yes, there are rules and boundaries. For a Bishop to comment on a teenage girls clothing choices/cleavage violates boundaries.
Mike said
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And Julia did. She skipped Sunday church meetings but she did deliver her mortified daughter to the YW meeting on Wednesday night and early morning seminary naked 5 times and ran a few errands around town which miraculously did not get her arrested. I was there that unforgettable Wednesday night and she just walked into the church not wearing one stitch like it was the entirely normal thing to do and carried on normal chit-chat conversations with anyone who happened to be there. Not one peep was heard from anyone about her attire, until she left.
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Mike, without pictures, it didn’t happen!!!! 🙂