We receive a lot of instruction in the Church. Here is a (potentially non-exhaustive) list:
- 3 hour meeting schedule on Sundays
- 5 hours a week of Seminary for some teenagers
- Family Home Evening once a week
- Home/Visiting Teaching once a month
- 12 Hours each 6 months at General Conference
- Firesides
- Training at the start of PEC/Ward Council, (even at Youth)
- Additional meetings such as HP Group Meeting, training,
- Other stake and ward meetings
This instruction is usually presented in a formal (and often only verbal) way. Reasons for this level of instruction that I have heard range from “We are fairly stubborn so we need to be constantly reminded of XYZ” to “Obviously we have not learnt XYZ or the prophets and apostles wouldn’t be teaching us about it again”. Others have also said that if we don’t get anything out of the instruction it is our fault. (For a sampling, here are a few from LDS.org: Getting the Most out of Sacrament Meeting, Converted to His Gospel though His Church)
The scriptures tell us that there is a relationship between being taught and conversion. The story of Alma who taught the people after fleeing from King Noah is a good example. In Mosiah 18 it records how Alma taught and prophesied and it had a miraculous effect on those hearing his words. They are recorded as responding, “And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts”. Many were subsequently baptised. This singular event shaped the direction of the rest of the story of the Book of Mormon.
For the most part, I don’t see people responding all that favourably to a sacrament meeting. To be fair, I don’t really expect the font to be filling up after three talks and four songs…..or a Gospel Doctrine lesson or a fireside.
However, most people I speak to* (*not statistically valid), indicate that they feel over instructed. That it is repetitive. That they have heard it all before. That it is mostly uninspiring. That it is not challenging.
I was in HP’s Group some time ago and we were talking about learning in a Gospel environment. I found myself blurting out the phrase, “We are over instructed and under converted”. After thinking about it for a while, the phrase was perhaps more poignant than I had first thought. It captured, in seven words, a complex part of our LDS culture. One that perhaps through fear, perhaps through the need to control, perhaps through a need to just learn – we have constructed a regimented instruction program that permeates our worship services and our lives outside of the Sunday experience. It captured a culture that, for some, expresses a level of displeasure at such regimented instruction – and that it sometimes fails to lead us to conversion – or closeness to Christ.
Don’t get me wrong…I’m not saying that every lesson, every class and every Sacrament meeting must be like Alma preaching at the Waters of Mormon. Some of those classes have indeed been life changing for me. But I can’t help feeling that so much energy, time and resources are spent instructing for little else than because that’s just what we do, we have a three hour block or that Conference is just 12 hours long.
- Does anyone else feel “Over instructed and under converted”?
- In what ways can we, as a Church, focus more on bringing each other to Christ?
- How are we “born again” in the LDS context?
- What changes would need to be made?
Wheat & Tares 
We have a lot of converts and newly reactivated members in our ward, and they sometimes feel overwhelmed by all the content and new ideas like they are drinking from a fire hose. And then there are the rest of us who feel like it’s the same old same old every single week for the rest of our lives. There should be a happy medium. I don’t have a solution really, although I do think teaching the lessons is always better than sitting in the class because you have to go deeper.
I’ve always wished we could have more 2nd/3rd hour options. Crazy complex scriptural exegesis for the nerds, gentler theme-based scripture study for others, Gospel Principles for newbies, practical skills (computers, job skills, cooking, arts), fellowship time. And the freedom to choose between them. And the lessening of age-based and gender-based groupings: a young woman might have much to learn from the High Priests, and a High Priest might have much to learn from the Young Women.
I think this is very much a function of whether your ward is spiritually growing or spiritually dead. As the speakers come from the congregation, if the congregants are growing through their own experiences, they have a lot more to share from the pulpit or in the class than if they’re just regurgitating conference talks. I’ve been blessed to be in a fairly solid ward with some really growth going on, and it’s a far different feel than when I visit some of my relatives.
I should have said “spiritually stagnant”, rather than “spiritually dead”.
Conversion can come though a number of mediums. Obviously instruction is one of those ways. However our communal and private worship is so dominated by instruction that the other avenues are restricted and overshadowed. Faithful expressions like praise, rejoicing, dancing, clapping, etc. are not common forms of our worship. Neither are the obvious manifestations of spiritual gifts. I wonder if these, and other, forms of worship and spiritual expression were introduced as common spiritual practices that the feeling of over instruction might dissipate and conversion might become more prevalent?
because we need less instruction and more service; and I’m not talking mormon on mormon service. Less talk, more walk. Hopefully justserve.org really turns into what I hope it can be.
I often wonder what the Lord will say about all the sitting around in meetings when He returns. As I get older, I’m becoming more impatient. I would rather be doing something good rather than being continually taught to do something good.
My understanding is that the three hour block, whatever it’s origins, is currently intended to function as (1) Worship-sacrament (2) Teaching/learning-Sunday school and (3) Personal application for day-to-day living-RS,YW,AP,EQ,HP.
Among the many obstacles is that (1) No real worship is happening in Sacrament meeting, (2) Learning in SS is hit-or-miss, and (3) tends to be a duplication of (2).
The solution to (1) lies with the bishopric, and IMO a spirit-filled worship service with uplifting music and outstanding speakers ought to be a top priority, as it prevents so many other problems from starting.
The solution to (2) lies in the students, and Elder R.G. Scott has spent considerable time teaching us how to learn, even when the SS teacher is mediocre.
Third hour just needs to be cancelled, or become more social, or less like SS, or something. Maybe more service based, and less learning based.
I think this post makes some important points. LDS_Aussie is basically saying that most of what he is experiencing at church in not as edifying as he would like.
I think the answer to the difficulty he identifies is due to the pressure-cooker that life in western society has become.
Today, a large percentage of western society enjoy a wonderful standard of living, but the demands on our time to support our life style, spreads us so thin that spirituality isn’t able to take root and flourish.
We hunger and thirst for those things that are of the world because they are readily available. This prevents church members from experiencing the greater manifestations of the Spirit that we long for, but we’re so wrapped up in obtaining educations and working to support ourselves we are spiritually anemic.
Following is quote from L Snow that makes the point.
There are men in this Church who are as good in their hearts and feelings as men ever were, but lack faith and energy, and do not obtain really what it is their privilege to receive. If their faith, their energy and determination were equal to their good feelings and desires, their honesty and goodness, they would indeed be mighty men in Israel…But I wish to impress upon you, my brethren and sisters that there are Elders among us endowed with Spiritual gifts that may be brought into exercise through the aid of the Holy Ghost. The gifts of the Gospel must be cultivated by diligence and perseverance. The ancient Prophets when desiring some peculiar blessing, or important knowledge, revelation or vision, would sometimes fast and pray for days and even weeks for that purpose.
JD, Vol.23, Pg.194 – Pg.195, LORENZO SNOW, May 6th, 1882
I have felt for a long while that the Church’s modelling has been almost totally focused on a Business Model, with the emphasis on statistics and the ‘outward look ‘of things, the number of baptisms, the attendance at Conferences, how we dress etc etc. Therefore, there is little real focus on spiritual and educational/learning development in the Church’s formal settings.
As LDS_Aussie points out there is a saturation of meetings with little or NO educational /learning or spiritual value and for me the excruciatingly boring Regional Meetings with the Area Presidency illustrate this perfectly. They seemed to suffer from ‘Apostle Envy” with the desire to pound the congregation into action, which more than not results in abuse at the congregation for not making them look ‘great’! (A very keen eye on SLC)
Our “Block’ system is too long and with its unnecessary gender separations. Our poor little primary kids 3 hours at Church! Sacrament Meeting should be a focus for us all but I feel in our culture (and I must say in my travels throughout the world) that we tend to ‘rush’ through the Sacrament to get to ‘the talks’. Whereas we as LDS seem largely to be missing the real spiritual value of the Sacrament. One would think will all the talks we have had on the subject we somehow have not got the right emphasis, maybe we should have the Sacrament and perhaps a period of reflection for a few minutes ( yes I know, the kids ,we had 4 but it’s a thought), then one 10 minute talk…then finish! And place the Sacrament in its real setting spiritually….as the main focus with us repenting and a renewing covenants and our focus on the Saviour….with this ‘purification we seen to be open for real learning..
Fast and Testimony meeting too seems to be a venue for our more than eccentric and often Personality Disordered members giving them an open forum to establish just how really ‘crazy’ we are for those who are attending for the first time!(ask the Missionaries). A very 19-century idea that has well exhausted it ‘spiritual’ value for me. We need to find better spiritual learning experiences and I think with the Church in a state of…to be kind, a period of ‘Flux”, our whole concept of Sunday needs to be readdressed. As some in this Blog have suggested a shorter meeting.
As LDS_Aussie pointed out in another resent Blog about the over lay of MORE dress standards over the approved ‘Official Dress Standards” it further illustrates the idea that the Church is often more concerned with the outward appearance (for those non US please read the BYU Idaho Code of Conduct…I served my Mission in Eastern Europe and this could easily be part of a Communist Policy, spying, etc). We continue to teach our youth that dress is more important than the complexities and wonderful experiential journey of developing a real spiritual relationship with God and all his creations.
With exciting new technical innovations both in information, software and hardware that are exposed to the Church with wonderful visuals, talks by our leadership (male and Female), academics speaking on issues, informative videos etc , an exciting curriculum, could be used at Church and at home ….we live educationally in an age of true excitement …
All those meetings–it’s like 24-hr. cable news. The meetings are on the schedule, mandated by the handbook, so they have to be filled up with something.
Un-mandating them would raise questions about whether we ever needed them.
Oh, and then some people sign up for more meetings, i.e. Time Out For Women.
When I want some time out, I’m not gonna drive to some neighboring city and spend all day in a windowless hall, hearing things I’ve already heard.
I agree whole-heartedly. Here’s my take on our sacrament meetings (http://www.wheatandtares.org/12150/worship-v-instruction/). Back when I was Ward Music Chairperson (after the linked post) I did get an agreement that intermediate congregational hymns would not be cut, not even for musical items. It was adhered to. It’s been a few months since I was released, and only a couple of weeks ago the intermediate hymn was cut because the second speaker, assigned the topic food storage (for a sacrament meeting? surely that’s better in the PH/RS time slot), droned on and on about the origin of 7th Day Adventists and their dietary code, the invention of cornflakes, how obese people could be said to be carrying their food storage with them, and women lasting longer because they have more fat. None of it remotely uplifting or worshipful. That was goodbye to the hymn, and the poor Stake RSP had to squidge her talk into about 7 minutes.
In contrast a few months ago a young man who attends our ward with carers was enthusiastically clapping and dancing throughout the Battle Hymn of the Republic (all those Glory, glory, alleluias) which brought a spirit of happiness and joy to the meeting that I really wish we could experience every week, so I’m with Paddy #5.
I’d like to point out that people pay to plop down for three hours straight to watch a lord of the rings or pirates of the Caribbean movie… And yet in sacrament meeting there is a steady stream (no pun intended) of grown adults, teenagers and children who evidently can’t “hold it” for an hour and shuffle out to take a drink of water or use the restroom. Seriously, can these same people not “hold it” long enough to get on a ride at Disneyland, play at recess, watch “frozen” or take a test at school? Seriously, all week long are these same teens and adults peeing every 30 minutes and do they need medical help? Most already arrived 15 min late and in about 45 minutes they can take a drink and tinkle break. Of course I know there are legitimate needs for ducking out (health issues, potty training, and escape from the food storage rant), but I point this out just to say that culturally we treat worship (sacrament meeting) as a really low priority in our lives. When I read that we need to cut the 3 hr block even further I thought, gosh you might as well everyone is already in the foyer, by the drinking fountain, or in the bathroom anyway. Those still in the pews are playing FarmVille on their phones or zoning out. Take a look at the “stream” of people leaving for tinkle breaks next week…you’ll see many more than just the cross-legged toddlers. It’s quite disrespectful actually and not seen in most other churches. In the Early church saints would sit on logs and rocks outdoors for hours to listen to Joseph or Heber or parley. Yet today, we can’t handle 60 min in comfort. Certainly something like the king follet discourse is worth sitting through, more so than the food storage assault described above. We probably need to clean up the content, add more worship, more milk and more meat. We could probably use a little more reverence as well.
•Does anyone else feel “Over instructed and under converted”?
YES! I like the phrase to describe the situation.
•In what ways can we, as a Church, focus more on bringing each other to Christ?
Focus more on giving service outside our Mormon bubble.
•How are we “born again” in the LDS context?
I don’t think all LDS are “born again”
•What changes would need to be made?
Start taking on REAL issues in the world. Who cares if the government allows gays to marry. What about all the people that are suffering and dying around the world. I don’t know that I have ever heard a GA say that we need to be helping these people. OK – maybe vague references, but often times members think, “Oh – I give fast offerings and that will get to these folks.” That bothers me.
The church indoctrinates, only the spirit converts.
Annon: In fairness, I have had to take bathroom breaks during movies despite paying for them. The older I get, the less I can hold it.
Annon- while I agree that the general approach of most members to our myriad meetings isn’t exact wild enthusiasm followed by rapt attention (of the sort that enabled early saints to listen to early sermons for hours), perhaps it is worthwhile to ask ourselves why noone is paying attention rather than dismiss the problem as simply “disrespect”. The fact remains that one does not usually pay to watch the same 3 hour movie hundreds of times, week after week. Why? Because that would be a boring, repetitive waste of time. No one on earth could maintain the same enthusiasm and level of attention to a movie the 1000th time they have seen it. So why do we expect members to hear the same talks, the same lessons, the same platitudes literally thousands of times in a lifetime? It is a boring, repetitive, waste of time. People don’t pay attention and invent excuses to leave because there is no point is staying. That is not the fault of the audience (at least not entirely). The structure, the materials and the delivery all share a large part of the blame. No matter how it’s packaged, hearing about tithing for the millionth time, likely delivered by someone wholly uninterested in giving the millionth talk or lesson on tithing is an invitation for the members to play Angry Birds. If you want people to be interested, say something interesting.
…perhaps it is worthwhile to ask ourselves why noone is paying attention…
This is the right question. As unattractive as it is, the answer is the product has become correlated watered down pablum in a can.
From Phillip McLemore’s 2006 “Mormon Mantras” article:
“Through the years, I’ve personally listened as Elders Boyd K. Packer and Dallin H. Oaks taught principles that support deep transformation instead of surface spirituality…
“In 2001, I attended a four-hour leadership meeting in which Elder Packer flat-out stated that we are too wrapped up in organizations and programs and, as a result, are losing the gospel. He begged us to streamline programs, meetings, and activities so more focus could be placed on personal and family spiritual growth. The next week, our stake increased the number of meetings!
“Our common LDS mantras, and the culture they create, support external compliance and organizational activity to such a degree that even influential general authorities working hard to promote genuine spiritual growth have minimal impact.”
Eliza and Howard,
I agree completely. People take tinkle breaks in sacrament meeting because they are bored. They are bored because we have been getting the same correlated milk all our lives and they they find (sometimes) church irreverent because they need meat, relevancy, and authenticity.
I disagree that we need a professional clergy or polished speakers, we just need well-prepared,thoughtful, and inspired ones.
I cringe on Sundays when all the speakers are assigned to speak on the same 4 minute conference talk that was boring the first time we heard it. Now we are supposed to listen to each local speaker talk for 20 minutes about the talk – word-by-word and sentence-by-sentence. If it was supposed to be a 40 minute talk, the original speaker would have given it as such, but they didn’t. They said what needed to be said in 4 minutes and sat down. Can we please move on? Perhaps not. The “re-talk” gives us the chance to use one of our favorite phrases in Mormondom, “Webster defines X as . . . ”
Solution A
Explore snake handling and/or speaking in tongues.
Solution B
Pipe the audio from the meeting into the bathroom where you will find Hawkgrrl and probably the rest of the party.
Solution C
Hold meetings outdoors in front of the church on logs and rocks and see if we will be similarly inspired to say something interesting and new.
Solution D
Throw in the flag and see if the “Guy Upstairs” can help.
I love the irony of a general authority calling for an additional four-hour leadership meeting to instruct local leaders that they need to have fewer meetings. How else are they going to get the message out to have fewer meetings and focus on personal and family spiritual growth? Of course there were more meetings in the stake afterwards. Local leaders are just following the example that was modeled.
I agree for the most part. Perhaps we should lock the bathrooms?
I’d like to see us move away from using conference talks as the basis for Sacrament meeting talks and lessons. (Guess what, I heard it in conference and read it again in the Ensign. I know what it says)
Perhaps we could insist that people use (heaven forbid) the scriptures in their talks along with their spiritual life experiences (not just using wheat to make bread or leaving two minutes late and avoiding a car crash).
Perhaps turn off the Internet as well.
#14 Annon, #18 Eliza said it better than I could. I pee because I receive not, but if I received, I would not pee. Or something like that.
I don’t mind the 3-hour block, per se. It’s 8 miles from my home to the chapel and I have a short-to-moderate drive for my ward. Some people drive 25 miles or more.
The “3-hour tour” was a blessing to the Saints in my part of Zion in many ways, but it can be a shipwreck when it’s filled with predigested pap regurgitated as paragraphs of GC addresses read verbatim as “sacrament meeting talks” or the Teachings of the Prophet of the Year (redacted to remove anything controversial, like BY’s references to multiple wives) read paragraph by paragraph in lieu of an EQ lesson.
Sometimes I need more. That’s part of what the Bloggernacle is for, too.
If weekly Church meetings must rest slightly above the lowest common denominator, they’re not going to challenge me a whole lot. But they could at least be interesting. I listened to one 16-year-old YW recently stand in sacrament meeting and say, “I was asked to give a talk on Elder So-and-So’s Conference talk from last October on Thus-and-Such a topic.” [An inauspicious beginning.] She then proceeded to give a pretty well-executed and engaging discourse, using quotes from the talk, her own thoughts, Scriptures, and a “non-standard,” relevant, and non-mumbled testimony at the end. I was impressed, so much so that I actually lost the thread of the talk at one point, pondering on all of the horrible talks I’ve heard where the speaker (and it isn’t always a YM/YW) just reads the Conference talk. Afterwards I complimented the young woman, expressed my satisfaction to the bishop, and offered to conduct a fireside for the youth on how to write a talk. 🙂 Hopefully he’ll take me up on it.
I certainly did not expect the conversation to get to the topic of urination!!!
Sacrament meeting, to me, is such a passive environment – apart from the sacrament itself. Being a professional educator, I don’t know of any evidence that would support the notion of the 3 hour block in its current format. The consequence of that is that many tune out, or just don’t learn anything.
At the end of the day, in a sense, it doesn’t matter if what we say is true – broad principles of learning still need to apply. Engagement, activity, different forms of media, #2 Bro. Jones ideas etc etc….
And all of those things should point towards Christ – and our conversion. Many don’t particularly like the phrase, but we do need to be born again……. and again, and again…..
As a mother of four children (and that’s partly why I need a bathroom break during sacrament meeting) a sacrament meeting that lasts over an hour is not at all child friendy or age appropriate. That also goes for a three hour meeting block. I worry sometimes that these issues are not addressed because of a passive assumption that because it is the way it, it must be what Heaveny Father wants. I agree with comments around spending so much time in meetings on a Sunday. Maybe attending the meetings, speaking or teaching is the only service we have performed on the Sabbath. I think Heavenly Father can expect more from us.
Aussie says in #25, Being a professional educator, I don’t know of any evidence that would support the notion of the 3 hour block in its current format.
As a corporate trainer and coach, I concur. However, I suspect that the reasoning was that The Block made it a lot easier to get people to attend meetings when they didn’t have to make a 50-mile round-trip to the chapel, three and sometimes 4 or more times a week. According to the Saints here, whose descriptions of pre-block church life rival the tales of the Handcart Pioneers, it was a beautiful gesture on the part of Church headquarters to recognize that there are parts of Zion, yea, even stakes and wards, where people can’t just walk to the meetinghouse. 🙂
That said, it is NOT conducive to learning comprehension or retention, either for young people or adults. We spend much more of our time on how to get and keep people’s attention and much less of it on actual gospel knowledge and content. Ten to 15-minute “passing times” between periods, while worthwhile for leg-stretching, general re-awakening, and (yes) excretory functions, mean that actual class time is often reduced to 30 minutes or less, especially in priesthood quorums after the chaos of joint opening exercises. (A couple of weeks ago, I had about 18 minutes to cover the Joseph Fielding Smith manual’s chapter on “The Role of Women in the Church” in EQ. I mean, really . . .)
However, I’m not sure that the answer is to go back to the old way, which was clearly designed for
the Utah modela much higher population density of Saints, where access to the meetinghouse wasn’t a 30-minute drive, as it is for many even in the urban areas of the Midwestern US, for example. And there are places with much greater distances and much higher gas prices than what we currently face in the Minneapolis area.It’s a conundrum, all right, and given that we have issues with content as well as format, would we gain more in learning quality than we would lose in convenience (and absenteeism) by adopting some less compact but more relaxed format?
New Iconoclast is right about the history of it. I remember growing up (before the consolidated 3 hour block) that we had to travel to the church twice on Sundays, 26 miles each way, often in snowy conditions. They asked for members who lived near the building to host far-living families for lunch on Sundays and to have us hang out with them for a few hours every week. It was a burden on everyone. It was also the first time I ever saw someone put ice cubes in soup to cool it.
Aussie Mate,
Setting the 3 hour block debate aside, I think that church has become less child-friendly over the past half-century.
1) The Primary reflects the tone of the American Educational System to a large degree and although there aren’t ‘No Child Left Behind’ tests, we nonetheless zone in on outcomes and “teaching to the test” as if there were. However, younger children learn best through play and environments which are creative and fun and loving.
2) Teachers are encouraged to leave food behind and not pass out lesson prizes or toys. They should have “spiritual take-aways, not cutesie crafts”. Really? Because anyone with kids will let you know they need food and a simple toy can mean the world to them. Giving and receiving is a symbol of the social exchange of brother/sisterhood and the gospel.
3) Primary in our ward is kept as quiet as the high priest’s group. Instead of a pianist they use the official accompaniment CDs which are all played like whale sonograms. How is that interesting of fun? In contrast I remember being in a primary where we loved popping out of our chairs to yell “sun-BEAM”, marching around to ‘Called to Serve’, and racing with the pianist to see who could get to the end of “first and second books and Nephi-Jacob Enos, Jarom Omni” and other whippy tunes. It’s funny, but in my experience the most memorable experiences children have with God are filled with laughter and happiness. Older saints remember even more boisterous mid-week primary activities which were much more child-friendly. (Thus, the song, ‘The Chapel Doors’ reminded children when it was time switch gears). Right now we expect them to be in “chapel” mode all.the.time.
4) Primary children over 8 used to deliver short sacrament meeting talks and would often prepare through their primary teacher’s “elocution” classes. It was hard work, but they participated in sacrament meeting and had a lot of support along the way. Now we essentially have adults talk to adults and expect children to sit and listen.
5) Primary children used to play piano, and other musical instruction in sacrament meeting much more frequently. Even when 6 year olds plunked something out with one hand (that had been practiced carefully), it was worshipful to God in ways that an hour hot air from a dry councilman simply could never match.
Yes, and if I were a primary child today, I would be taking as many tinkle breaks as possible.
Every year a member of the Stake Presidency speaks in Sacrament Meeting about how to bear a testimony. Testimony meeting in my ward has become vain repetition because members live in fear of not following the approved model. Sunday School answers and conformity are valued over thoughtful discussions of faith. Not to mention the emphasis on knowing without a shadow of a doubt instead of walking by faith. For those of us struggling with complex family, health, employment and spiritual issues the corporate model of our meetings produces emptiness. I sometime attend mass on Saturday to feel the spirit of worship.
You make some good observations. The Church collectively suffers from far too much “group think’,’ group talk”. This results in homogenize thinking and feeling which leaves us devoid of true spiritual expression.
The Corporate model requires conformity; we look like bankers (men), as I recall our Mission President saying “I am pleased that you are in the uniform of the Priesthood”. Uniforms have very specific (often-unpleasant) psychological meanings.
Try as my son did recently to raise a few issue (simply a few ‘policy issues’ and they were simple issues!) with his the Stake president, he was met with accusations of ‘conspiracy’ and more than a hint, that he is rebelling. The idea of ‘critical dialogue’ is an anathema in my experience (58 years or so) with leadership. I am sure this has a deep cultural base in Utah. Having lived there, I noticed a strange dichotomy; on one hand a strict conservatism and closed view on almost everything, on the other, an early historical creative spirit which challenged both social and religious conventions which seemed to have been lost.
We seem to be regressing into a realm of insecurity….so conformity seems to be the Church’s solution . A quite Primary, Sacrament talks based on largely Utah stories (naturally), formulated testimonies,(this meeting should be dropped) and little room for real conversion …..Yep, over instructed and under converted.
The trek between New Ulm to Mankato Minnesota was about 30 miles back in my day. Sacrament and Sunday School were on Sunday, Mutual(MIA) was on Wednesday, Relief Society was on Thursday and Priesthood was early Sunday morning(Families worked together so only a few cars had to drive. There must have been a million Mormon miles traveled between those two towns over the decades.
The three hour block was a heaaven sent. I think that New Iconoclast and Hawkgrrrl experienced, or at least new, of such a thing. For a while my mother was Relief Society President over the district and a time or two or more would wrap up my baby sister, lay her in the front seat of our ’52’ Dodge and head off in freezing weather to a group of sisters, somewhere in southeastern Minnesota, in a room huddled around a pot bellied stove. I’m not so sure the block plan helped that but things sure seemed to change when we switched over to it. If gas prices today would have existed back then, I don’t see how we could have done all that traveling. I see the hand of God in the history around here.
Those distances still exist so I hope, if there would be changes made, it would be in the time block we already have.
Y’all help me out here. Before block, my ward had Sunday School in the morning and Sacrament Meeting in the evening. Relief Society, MIA and Primary were weekday/night meetings. The gas crisis in the USA happened and the Block was the answer. We were encouraged to spend more time with our families with the free weeknights. So now we have RS, YM/YW, and Primary meetings on Sunday, AND non-Sunday meetings and activities. What happened? Don’t even get me started on early morning Seminary. If we had quality scripture study on Sundays, why would we need it?
“So now we have RS, YM/YW, and Primary meetings on Sunday, AND non-Sunday meetings and activities. What happened?”
I think the problem is some activities being deemed inappropriate for the sabbath – hence the poor primary children being constrained for so many hours. Add in a dash of the cynical and I wonder to what extent it was ever to do with reducing costs for the membership as opposed to allowing buildings to be used by multiple wards – another reason why everything has to be so constrained in some places – to avoid disturbing someone else’s sacrament meeting.
In church yesterday as we reached the conclusion of the first speaker (spoke for about 15 minutes) and stood to sing the intermediate hymn I wondered why we couldn’t just finish the meeting then. Partaking of the sacrament had been a positive, uplifting experience and the first speaker spoke very well. Why do we need a second speaker, the first speaker was more than adequate? Concluding the meeting at that time would have made it about 45 minutes. I recall thinking “how I am I going to concentrate for another 20 minutes or so?” Growing up in the Catholic Church, mass was about 45 minutes. Why is “more” better? I further considered, if sacrament finished after 45-50 minutes and we had a short break and had one 30 minute lesson, that could be more than enough Sunday instruction. Let’s go for quality not just quantity.
Re:Aussie mate
Well I am positive after almost a lifetime in the Church that the ‘centre Stake of Zion’s’ principle is not only is more better but it is, more than more is even better…….. You silly lot!!!!
I don’t go to Church to be instructed even though it’s all right if it happens. I guess I don’t think of talks as intruction as I much as I think of them as someone telling their experiences with a certain doctrine or set of doctrines. In sacrament meeting, I find my mind wandering a lot. And I’m not blaming the speakers. I want adult Sunday School class to be, especially, discussion oriented. I suppose if everyone else wants instruction then, I suppose everyone is going to be over-instructed. On the other hand, it would be pretty hard to over-discuss me.(especially when I’m always thinking I’m right.) Even when I would teach a primary class, I would always try to get a discussion started. I suppose with what I want out of Church they could do it any way they wanted.