This is about the Church, not politics. On Wednesday, Nov. 6, the day after the election, the LDS First Presidency issued the following press release, a letter of support for Donald Trump: “First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Congratulate President-Elect Donald Trump on Election Win.” Let’s talk about it.
Here is the text of the short letter.
We congratulate President-elect Donald Trump on his election as the 47th President of the United States of America. We invite all to pray for him, other elected officers, and leaders of nations around the world. Praying for those in public office is a long tradition in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Given the difficult challenges of our day, it is vital that we look to God for guidance and blessing and seek to be peacemakers in our homes and communities.
We commend Vice President Kamala Harris for her candidacy and thank her and President Joe Biden for their public service at the nation’s highest levels. We wish them both well for the years ahead.
May all our local, national, and world leaders be blessed with wisdom and judgment as they fulfill the great public trust afforded to them.
First issue, the date of the letter. In both recent Donald Trump wins, in 2016 and in 2024, such a letter (they all have similar language) was issued the day after the election. When Donald Trump lost in 2020, the 2020 congratulatory letter was issued roughly five weeks after the election, on December 14, 2020. How do you read that long delay?
There are three ways I think you can read it. First, they were signaling their support for Donald Trump, hoping that his behind the scenes effort to undermine or overthrow the results of the 2020 election would be successful and President Biden would not take office. Alternatively, they were unwilling to issue the congratulatory letter a few days after the election, when it was clear to everyone that Biden had won, because Trump had not conceded (he never has, even now). Again, this shows support or at least deference to Trump. Finally, they may have simply been unwilling to alienate the vast majority of American LDS who were Trump supporters. None of these options for the delay reflect well on LDS leadership (unless you are a Trump supporter, in which case you are happy with all of them). None of these options line up with the claim of political neutrality we hear over the pulpit before every major election.
Second issue: “We invite all to pray for him, ….” Well, that’s an invitation I’m going to decline. I might pray for the welfare of my country or I might pray that the leaders of the nations not blunder us all into World War Three. They didn’t invite LDS to pray for Joe Biden. In the 2020 letter, they said: “We invite people everywhere, whatever their political views, to join us in praying for this new administration ….” But in 2016, they *did* invite people for Trump: “We invite Americans everywhere, whatever their political persuasion, to join us in praying for the president-elect ….”
I don’t think that is just random variation in the language of the letter. I take it for what it is: LDS leaders are comfortable in praying for Donald Trump, but they are not comfortable praying for Joe Biden. Again, their words are in conflict with the claim of political neutrality.
Third issue: What if LDS local leaders and members take this recent letter at face value and start praying for Donald Trump in our LDS meetings? Now I doubt many members are actually going to read the recent letter, but it’s not unlikely that those who do read it go on to make comments on conservative online sites and social media that a lot of Mormons follow, possibly encouraging just that, praying for Donald Trump in LDS meetings. It might become a thing. This could be a problem.
Fourth issue, in the context of the first three: Roughly two-thirds of US LDS voted for and support Trump. What about the other third? What about those of us who did not support Trump or who actively objected to his candidacy (for myriad reasons, but that’s for another post)? How do we feel about LDS leadership quietly supporting Trump? How do we feel about the prospect of MAGA Mormons accepting the invitation of LDS senior leaders and praying for Donald Trump in LDS meetings?
There is a counterargument to make, of course, and some contributors here at W&T have made it in our backlist discussions. This congratulatory letter more or less a form letter, just like the one they issue every four years. The leadership is sincere in working for political neutrality. And so forth. So there is a discussion to be had. What do you think?
- Has the political culture of the Church now crossed a line (despite political neutrality disclaimers) where progressives and Democrats no longer feel welcome in most LDS wards?
- Do you think senior LDS leaders actually practice political neutrality or do you think they have a thumb or two on the scales for Trump?
- If a MAGA Mormon prays from the pulpit for “Donald Trump, our beloved President,” how will you react?
- If a MAGA Mormon prays from the pulpit for “Donald Trump and his administration, may they secure our borders, drain the Swamp, and jail their political opponents,” how will you react?
Wheat & Tares 
Well, in our ward we had people bearing testimony that if someone didn’t support Prop 8, they should not have a temple recommend. And during Covid, people prayed about how our freedoms had been taken away. A candidate from our ward just won a seat on the local school board and he’s supported by Moms for Liberty. These are just the examples that come immediately to mind. I finally gave up several years ago (should have done it a lot sooner) on trying to be the change I wanted to see, so I’m not going, but I’m sure the atmosphere is celebratory, to say the least.
“Rabbi, is there a proper blessing for the tsar? Of course! May god bless and keep the tsar far away from us!”
I’m frustrated by the implications you brought us. May god bless Trump to listen to wise council and care for the poor and needy.
There’s not conspiracy thinking needed to explain the timing of the letters after each election. In 2020, the legal challenges surrounding the election were not resolved until the Supreme Court ruled on December 11, 2020 in Texas v. Pennsylvania (and another Wisconsin Supreme Court case on December 11-12, 2020), clearing the way for the electors to meet in their respective state capitols on December 14, 2020.
December 14 was the first business day after those rulings came out, and so it’s when they would have put out a routine press release.
It’s no different than how the Church handled the 2000 election. They waited until all of the legal challenges were resolved, and then issued their routine press release congratulating Bush after the Supreme Court released their ruling on December 12, 2000. When there haven’t been legal challenges, they have issued the press release as soon as the race has been conceded.
It’s a well defined pattern going back at least a quarter century and not showing favoritism to either political party. There’s no reason to read anything more into it.
The scripture about praying for those who despitefully use you comes to mind…so I will continue to pray.
I already pray for the mentally ill to recover, sinners of all stripes to repent, and that wicked people in powerful positions will be thwarted from harming others, etc. So I guess Trump gets covered. But I’ll also pray very earnestly for Ukraine, for peace in the Near East, immigrants, government leaders who should constitutionally provide “checks” to the powers of the Presidency, etc.
A member of MWEG reported that in her ward, in the testimony meeting before the election, a brother got up and told everyone they should vote for Trump. When this happened a couple women got up and walked out. She followed them, talked to them and found out who else in the ward they knew who wouldn’t vote for Trump. Then she talked to those women and did the same. She now has 20 names of people who don’t support Trump in her ward. She has organized a barbecue at her home for these people to associate and support each other. That’s peacemaking in my opinion.
And by the way, I do think we can pray for Trump and his administration. We can pray for his actions to be restrained. We can pray that he doesn’t have to actually suffer being the instrument of revenge he is promising to be. We can pray that he and his administration will have their hearts softened towards those who disagree with them. We can pray that by some force he is restrained from the revenge he seeks.
Praying for others can be a way to purify our hearts of hate and fear, and clear our minds as to what steps we each can bravely take each day to protect democracy and those in our care. Each day, we can choose each action to follow Christ and his support of the marginalized, as we each feel individually led.
As to whether the church administration supports Trump, I don’t know what good it would do to anyone to resist him publicly at this point. Harris has conceded. Trump didn’t. That’s the main difference between 2024 and 2020.
I think it’s an error to imagine the 15 are unified. Though they work hard to present a unified front, there have been indications in more than one direction. I think they probably have argued over what to do constantly, just as has been revealed about President McKay’s time. Unfortunately, they are divided in such a way that they didn’t do anything sufficient to open members eyes about the danger we face in Trump. Instead they have come across as supportive to everyone’s detriment.
Trump can be a dangerous man towards those that oppose him. Perhaps some leaders hope to protect the church and it’s members by making nice to him. People who opposed Trump’s election are pulling back and taking a protective rather than aggressive posture right now. I know MWEG members that are removing FB posts and personal information for fear there will be real life repercussions for them from Trump or his followers.
The pattern for openly preferring Republicans is nothing new. It was going on when I was a child 60+ years ago and the local Steel plant went on strike. Back then Democrats really supported unions and working people and as is still the case, Republicans took the side of management and owners of the huge corporations. All families of management and salaried employees got church welfare, because none of them belong to the enemy unions. But because hourly employees were many of them Union and bishoprics really didn’t know who was Union and who was not “caused” the strike, they did not deserve church welfare and their families could just starve. They chose to strike and could just suffer the consequences. The strike was over safety issues that would cost little to fix, such as guardrails over the blastfurnace catwalks. Two men had died because of easy and cheap fixes. But the owners wanted to screw the Union so the strike drug on for 9 months. Yeah, we went hungry, even though my dad went out of state to find work and sent money home. The church took the position that the steel workers were just being selfish (in wanting to not fall into molten steel) and so systematically let hourly employees’ families suffer.
I could give several other examples of blatantly tolerating the John Birchers to talk politics, yet any democratic talking points were treated as blasphemy. Our ward had “Pappy Whitehead” who had 12 children and every month bore his testimony about the truthfulness of the John Birch Society, the evils of civil rights, how Martin Luther King Jr was the devil himself, how the unions were a communist plot to overthrow American Democracy, how we needed to destroy the unions and some people he would mention as communists to save American freedom. Yes, this was during McCarthyism’s communist fear mongering, but it was going on in my ward in Provo, Utah. Apparently, this dude was never cautioned that his political views were unwelcome. But when my dad hosted the Democratic primary voting at our rundown shack of a remodeled chicken coop home for all of South Provo, my Dad was labeled the wicked apostate. And people wondered why he was inactive.
Faulty neutrality is alive and well in the church for at least the last 80 years. It wasn’t an accident that they picked Benson as an apostle, knowing he was a conservative extremist. (I accidentally tryped “extremest” and realized it is a different word, but still applicable. He was about the extremest.)
I just wish that moral character counted half as much as the “R” in front of the name.
The expression of congratulations are anodyne. Both Biden and Harris also expressed congratulations. Bear in mind that Trump would have never expressed congratulations had he lost, not would have few acknowledged defeat. His supporters would have been waging war on the streets had he lost.
I most certainly don’t think that the church is as politically neutral as it claims to be. But bear in mind that many Evangelical preachers are full-on Trumpists and peach political conspiracy theories and other toxicity in their congregations. The Mormon church is not nearly to that level.
Any political expressions in church I call out. I remind people that the church is not the place for politics especially since politics can have a very divisive effect and we gather in church to feel unity. The church hasn’t gone so far as to telling us how to vote.
Overall, however, I think the letter was poorly expressed and that the US’s political reality is nothing to celebrate. A little over half the votership just voted a pathological liar and criminal into office. Let that sink in.
I agree with Observer’s explanation of timing differences: it’s a routine letter that they have twice delayed due to one side contesting the results. I don’t read anything more into it than that. If this year’s edition had tweaked language about praying for the president, that could be read a lot of different ways, perhaps even including that they think Trump needs more prayers than previous presidents. Ultimately I have no idea, and don’t particularly care.
The question of praying for Trump by name reminds me that as a temple ordinance worker I was given training on the approved parameters for offering the prayer in the endowment prayer circle. One of the guidelines is that the only person we should pray for by name in the prayer circle is the president of the church (I never did when it was my turn). The question of praying for Trump by name is exhibit A for why someone made this a policy. They know the kind of oddities, sermons, and other potentially divisive things that pop up in sacrament meeting prayers in the church from time to time and they want to stay as far away from that as possible in temple prayer circles. So, for readers of this blog who attend endowment sessions, you can expect that to be a Trump-free zone, but no guarantees anywhere else. I would be surprised if it ever happened in my ward’s sacrament meeting, but I’m sure it will happen somewhere.
How would I react if it did happen? Probably with a big eyeroll, and a mental note of who said it, which would likely color my future interactions with them with a bit of wariness.
I did not vote for Biden, but I did pray for him. I prayed for his safety. I prayed that he would receive guidance for those issues that directly affected the lives of United States citizens. Admittedly, I also prayed that the amount of damage he might inflict would be minimal. The fact that you won’t pray for Trump is something that no longer surprises me at this point.
I second Observer’s points regarding timing. Ultimately, it’s of no concern.
That said, regarding political neutrality and Institutions, if you, as an institution, perceived a Presidential administration to be a threat (if indirect) to your future and that of your members (whether or not that was actually the case is beside the point), I don’t know that I would blame you for slowly taking positions (whether purposely or somewhat subconsciously) that might eat away at any appearance of neutrality.
This edges a little deeper into the general philosophy of church and state. The Founding Fathers wanted to avoid a state religion, but they certainly did not want to discourage religion from influencing political life. As I heard one radio host mention, the fact that we’ve flipped it so far is the rough equivalent of saying Trump wanted to build the wall to keep Americans inside. Religion, morality, and politics are more intertwined than most people care to admit. I think we often mistake one for the other.
Regarding your last two bullet points, if a MAGA did those things from the pulpit, I’d do the exact same thing I’d do if someone did the same for Biden. I’d smile, shake my head, and let the local leaders take care of it.
On praying for a leader or country. I don’t believe that prayer actually does anything. So I pray for no one. But if it did, I most certainly wouldn’t be asking God to help Trump. I would be asking God for justice to be served. For Trump to serve his sentence and for him to stand trial for his indictments and for the US to stand up for what’s right and what’s true. I have no hope and am under no delusion that Trump will stand up for what is right and true. Why would I pray for that? Should I pray that God touch Putin’s heart and that he’ll decide to do the right thing? Please. I would pray for nothing but Putin’s fall from power and his facing of legal consequences for his many crimes. And I would pray for nothing but Trump’s political demise, that conspiracy theories cease to have power over Americans’ minds, and that Trump face consequences for his criminality, lies, threats, extremely bad policy that will wreck the country, that Trumpism vanish from the earth, and that voters wake up and find and acknowledge truth. If that has to be through a peaceful revolution that ousted Trump from power and forced him to face justice, I would support and pray for that. But again, I don’t think the prayers actually do anything.
They are scared of Trump. Evangelicals don’t like Mormons. Romney caused Trump trouble. So did Mormons in Arizona who wouldn’t call a session of the legislature to overturn the election. They’ve got to brown nose him.
Anna,
Similar things happened where I grew up (Copperton, Utah and Magna, Utah). When the Unions would strike, requests for church welfare from striking workers was refused by some Bishops in the 1960’s. A decade later most Bishops had softened their stance a bit, but there was still considerable criticism. Constant acts of compassion came from people from other denominations. One furniture store owner, George Papanikolas, was Greek Orthodox. Due to his living through the Great Depression and his parents’ immigrant background, he understood economic struggles. He refused to collect payments for furniture from workers until the strike was over. I still thank his descendants for his charity and compassion when I see them. At the time, I knew dozens of families living on the edge of disaster that he aided. If Mr. Papanikolas is not in heaven, it ain’t a place worth going to.
@Eli I guess your prayers that Biden not harm the country must have worked! Not only did he not go after your guns as all my right-wing friends thought he would, but he also oversaw an economy that fared both much better than predicted and much better than much of the rest of the developed world. If Trump had won the last election, and managed the economy even half as well and the Biden administration, the right would be singing his praises. Biden/Harris IIJA investments will bring much needed improvements to US infrastructure and provide jobs for many years, as long as Trump doesn’t gut the program. Biden/Harris brought a good immigration proposal that could have been in place years ago if it weren’t for Trump continuing to pull strings, maybe you should have been praying harder that Trump not harm the country even while he wasn’t president!
Not political, Dave B. Who do you think you’re kidding?
Hmmmm…While I’m no longer a fan of the Church….I think the letter was a class move; much like what they’ve done for every President.
Dave B. Not political? Who do you think your fooling?
Observer: Thank you, Thank you….a Thousand Times, Thank you. A “Voice of Reason” in the midst of madness. This article is a nothing-burger.
To me, the church’s eroding political neutrality is somewhere between disappointing and disgusting. When MoTab sang at Trump’s inauguration, I realize that this wasn’t the first time, but it was always for Republicans, and that’s pretty damning from where I’m sitting. I’m with Brad D in thinking that praying for Trump or any political leader is an exercise in futility, but I do hope for the best, and I’m willing to take it one day at a time and hope that some mix of Trump’s flexibility (when his worst ideas have unforeseen-to-him consequences) and one or two adults in the room are able to stage manage the grizzly bear through the next 4 years. There will doubtless be casualties, some of whom are complicit in their own undoing. If it’s bad enough, the electorate will rebuke them at the midterms in two years, or if not then, at the next presidential election in 4 years.
These subtleties of language only influence those of us paying attention which is not the majority of church members. I would bet you less than 1% even read this. Progressives have definitely gotten the message, over and over, from the congregations and from many vocal leaders, that this is not the church for us. Having said that, in a year where almost everyone in the country shifted to the right, Mormons shifted away from Trump by 10% vs. the 2020 results. I did see Mormons I know posting from both sides of the political spectrum. Those on the right were mostly (belatedly) calling for civility now that they’ve won. They were like the cat that got into the cream, reveling in their success and ready to cry victim if anyone called them out. Those on the left were calling out the character of the incoming president. On one exchange, I saw the well-worn trope about a clown in a castle not being a king, another person I don’t know referring to Trump being an adjudicated rapist (Things Conservatives Don’t Care About for 400, Alex) and then a far right wing response from someone I know screeching “Rapist?” as if denying that he is or maybe she really didn’t know it because she’s in such a bubble. Who knows? “Ignorant citizens elect ignorant leaders.” – George Carlin
Personal opinion: Keep politics off Facebook. That’s what Twitter is for.
I went to dinner with some active Mormons who were also disappointed by the result. They work in health care and are astounded by the anti-woman legislation causing so many women to die or lose their fertility, and the utter lack of understanding how female reproductive systems work. But that’s probably why the country clearly voted to make abortion legal at the state level, but then voted differently at the top of the ticket. Hopefully Trump doesn’t actually sign a federal abortion ban because if he does, all those state level protections go *poof*.
The majority of Americans (including Mormons and evangelicals) desperately wanted a king and they got one. If they really believe the scriptures are “true,” they would realize that this never turns out well in the BofM or OT narratives. I agree with gebanks that the church is attempting to appease Trump in this statement – which is otherwise a benign form letter imo. Project 2025 will only be kind to christian nationalists and evangelicals. Mormons don’t fall into that category. The Church rightly opposed Trump’s family separation border policy last time. We’ll see what they do (or even can do) when the guardrails are off and the mass deportation begins.
I won’t be praying for Trump. I will be praying that whatever ethical actors are left in government (non-maga judges, blue state governors, the dem House in its limited role as a minority, any ethical generals) will be strengthened and inspired to be able to limit the damage as much as possible. If you voted for Trump, praying for him is like begging for a hurricane to make landfall on your city and then praying that that it doesn’t damage your own house.
>but it was always for Republicans, and that’s pretty damning from where I’m sitting.
Has a Democratic president elect ever invited the tabernacle choir to participate and the church declined? IMHO that is the only way that the choir’s participation in Republican inaugurations could be interpreted as a political statement.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
lefthandloafer, my post is strictly about what is happening inside the Church. I’m not attacking Trump or defending Harris, I’m talking about how this is all going to play out for Church members (which may or may not include you, it sounds like). Trump has politicized everything (because everything is about him) and senior LDS leaders have politicized the Church by wading into the culture wars and, before that as noted in comments above, by working against progressives and Democrats when given the chance.
So if you think this is political, you can blame Trump and LDS leaders for the way you think about things. Maybe you should attend your local LDS ward again to see how all this plays out.
I’m pretty much done. My faith started going downhill—beginning with my accidental discovery of Joseph Smiths extensive polygamy— that has been hidden by the church.
Then the nonsense taught by leaders in our Stake about Prop 8.
Then the Church response to the penalty they had to pay for not following the law regarding finances.
Also, the way my children have been treated by ignorant leaders.
(I, too, remember the Church holding out when Biden was elected POTUS).
It just seems like we worship the Church—not so much God or Jesus.
Too often the Church is more “do as I say, not as I do.”
A majority of church members voting for Trump just shows how pointless our meetings are and how ridiculous their focus on color of shirts, hemlines etc etc etc are—rather than the Ten Commandments.
Dave B: Riiiiiiggggghhht…..
I’ve been to my local Ward since the election and things are just fine (at least as fine as Mormonville can be). So far, the U.S. and the World has not slipped into the apocalypse: and in some ways has already started to get better. This despite so many absolutely “losing their sh*t” this last week.
How about a friendly wager? I’ll bet you $100.00 that in two years the U.S. is more secure and is in a stronger financial position than we are now; and that we’ll not be prospering another World War overseas.
Lois: “A majority of church members voting for Trump just shows how pointless our meetings are and how ridiculous their focus on color of shirts, hemlines etc etc etc are—rather than the Ten Commandments.” Well then I think you will love my post tomorrow!
lefthandloafer: I hope you are right. I would never vote for an unethical rapist, but it’s certainly not the first time we’ve had one in office (although in the past, it’s not something we all knew about ahead of time). But I’m willing to wait and watch. Trump is often quite flexible when confronted with reality, so maybe he’ll back off some of his dumber ideas and just move the goalposts, defining success differently. Tariffs could be his new Mexico paying for the border wall promise.
I definitely hope and kind of believe that we will be in a better financial position in two years, and here’s why: 1) we are already heading there (along with the rest of the developed world), meaning the post-pandemic inflation has slowed, and 2) spending and the stock market are mostly beholden to vibes, and people (wrongly IMO) believe that Trump is better for the economy, ergo, he is better for the vibes that drive a lot of the economy.
As to the US being more secure, I honestly have no idea how to assess that. We haven’t had any terrorist attacks on our country under Biden, but I don’t think Biden’s been great for foreign policy, either for our allies or for holding our enemies to account, and the aggression of dictators is definitely on the rise. I think he’s more dove than hawk. Will foreign leaders keep it together because Trump is unpredictable, or will they flatter and manipulate him for their own purposes? I’m maybe 50/50 on it being a positive. Even Zelensky is doing the necessary ring kissing, and he was tired of Biden. We can certainly lose our morality but gain military security; these don’t always correlate. If we abandon alliances, we might find more nuclear weapons proliferation in some of these countries which might not lead to a war during a Trump presidency, but could be disastrous down the line. We shall see.
Loafer, give it a few months. The Trump tariffs will ignite another round of inflation in the US and further depress the world economy. The Trump deportation initiative will hurt US businesses (some will lose workers and most will lose customers). Losing workers, even “illegal” workers, will reduce Social Security contributions and sales tax revenues, by the way. There is not a chance in hell the economy will be better in two years.
The world will not be a safer place in four years. Far from it. For getting Iranian drones and North Korean munitions and soldiers, Putin almost certainly promised nuclear arms technology in return. As neighboring states figure this out, they will be forced to go nuclear themselves rather than face nuclear threats from Iran or North Korea. So South Korea, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Germany, Poland, and a few others will likely get nuclear weapons shortly. They would be stupid not to. Non-proliferation is dead, in part because of Russian actions and in part because non-nuclear Western nations now realize they can no longer rely on being under the US “nuclear umbrella” because of Trump, who is always ready to cozy up to foreign dictators but can’t figure out why we need allies (he is, without a doubt, the dumbest president we have ever had).
Trump’s threats to leave NATO aren’t just going to get other NATO countries to increase their defense expenditures; those threats have already compromised the trust every other country, whether NATO or non-NATO, puts in US promises, express or implied, to restrain the aggressive impulses of Russia and China. You can bet that Japan and South Korea are asking themselves what to do given a suddenly unreliable US partner. And Taiwan better get nukes or Trump will sell them out, too. So since the US can’t be relied on as an ally or partner under Trump, everyone now needs nukes. And when we have twenty or thirty or forty nuclear-armed countries, it won’t be too long before someone uses one. That’s what happens when you elect a reckless clown to run the country. Remember this discussion when the nukes start flying.
It’s nice your ward hasn’t spiralled into overt Trumpiness yet. Mine hasn’t either. I will be pleasantly surprised if that continues to be the case.
I’ll pass on the wager, as I don’t gamble. Which is too bad, as I would almost certainly be rich many times over from well-placed bets on NFL games.
Discussing whether the economy will be better or worse is off topic, for those who want to keep things strictly about the church. I am just pointing out as I think church and politics are so closely tied together that we can’t talk about church without hitting on politics.
Anyway, if it was just the church’s response to the newly elected president, I would not read too much into the small differences in how presidents are treated. But it is the whole pattern. It is years and years of small ways of saying they are against civil rights in the 50-60s. It is giving families of management church welfare and letting the families of the poorer common laborers go hungry. My husband’s family got church welfare during the strike when I went hungry because his dad was salaried. It is tolerating conservative ideas to be voiced in talks and frowning on more liberal ideas ever being voiced. It is a pattern of small things. The church’s notification that it is “neutral” that it sent out this time isn’t even neutral when instead of addressing all the many issues or addressing the moral character of our leaders, it says we should vote in a way that upholds life. Translated to vote in support of ending all abortions because supporting “life” is a dog whistle for anti abortion. The pro-lifers have pretended that never allowing abortion and letting mothers bleed out when miscarrying “saves lives.” No, it just turns women in to nonhuman incubators whose only purpose is to incubate babies and have less right to live than an already dead fetus. It is dog whistles about being anti government welfare by “promoting self sufficiency” and saying charities should handle the poor, when it is obvious that charities are not sufficient or well enough organized to handle the poor.it is not one thing that makes me feel our church is not neutral, but the pattern over the 70 years I have been in the church.
Loafer, I’ll take you up on the bet. With the caveat that I agree with you that we won’t be facing WWIII. Economists have been in fear of another recession for a couple of years. However Biden executed a soft landing. Economy’s in good shape now. But that’s because of lots of immigrants and open trade. Two years from now I predict economic slowdown. The pendulum will swing back to the Democrats and by 2028 the Dems will win back the presidency and two chambers of Congress.
Foreign conflicts happen independently of who’s president in the US, maybe with some rare exceptions. I doubt the Middle East will calm down by then. Bear in mind that Trump threatened to bomb Iran. And he’s anti-war? Hah. Although maybe the Ukraine war will come to an end with Trump refusing additional weaponry to Ukraine. Russia will fully occupy the Donbas and Crimea, constituting a massive violation of sovereignty and further empowering Putin to engage in similar experiments elsewhere.
Brad D: I will give “the Fed” (and many of the largest financial institutions in the country) much of the credit for orchestrating somewhat of a soft landing. As for Biden, I don’t he’s orchestrated much of anything for the past two years…
I too have worried about a major market correction; of which we are long overdue. So, certainly that is a possibility. Along with that I think we’re facing a major terrorist attack at any time. I don’t see how we can avoid this; given how porous our Southern Boarder has been. Call me cynical, but I think we’ve already got terror cells in the country.
I suppose we’ll see.
“It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.”
– Charles Dickens, “A Tale of Two Cities”
lefthandloafer: “How about a friendly wager? I’ll bet you $100.00 that in two years the U.S. is more secure and is in a stronger financial position than we are now; and that we’ll not be prospering another World War overseas.”
That’s certainly the wager on the minds of privileged voters last Tuesday. I’m not interested in your wager. Economies go up and down, and my guess is increased consumer spending via tariffs will offset tax cut extension.
The wager I’ll put forth is whether or not the marginalized will be better off two years from now. Given the rhetoric around a national abortion ban, cutting IEP funding, deporting immigrants (and their American citizen children who would then be stateless I guess?), and revisiting marriage equality, my guess is no. You interested in that wager? Because there’s your LDS angle.
Hawkgrrrl:
I’m really noodling your comment:
“We can certainly lose our morality but gain military security; these don’t always correlate.”
Personally, I think that is true – but, I can no longer reconcile that fact that human kind is not a particularly moral species (including me); while clearly we try, we declare our intent and can often be quite kind. Ultimately, at our DNA core, we are driven by self interest and survival. Heaven knows, even Nature itself is very, very cruel.
So, we try to see the World as it really is (with both Evil and Good) and we try to minimize the destruction to ourselves and others. But, it is entirely possible to attempt to be moral and still be destroyed by other powers.
Chadwick:
Who is empowered to declare who the “marginalized” are? You? Me? The Government? There have been times when I’ve been marginalized….and really no one gave a sh*t. So, how would we structure a wager on a “squishy”, ever changing group of individuals who cry out “I’m marginalized”?
I’ll go back to church if one year from today the US economy is performing better than it is today…4.1% unemployment, 2.7% inflation, DOW at an all-time high. **
**assumes 10% tarrifs and mass deportation that was promised
lefthandloafer
I’m very sorry to hear you were marginalized and nobody cared. We can do better. I’m trying to do better, especially now.
I listed some marginalized groups in my original comment. Jesus seemed to define them as the least of these. I think defining the marginalized is possible, even if we don’t wager on their future prosperity.
If anyone doesn’t want America to be great again, they are free to but themselves a one-way ticket. That has nothing to do with any one person, but loving your country.
hnorth1, love the country my way or else, amiright?
late to the game again.
for once I kind of agree with Observer about the timing of the first presidency letter. Given that Trump did not concede, it is plausible to say they waited for court rulings to make it official rather than relying on the press. However this could also be merely a post-hoc explanation for something that was not well thought out. (I don’t see the delay in the 2000 election as a parallel situation because in that election there was no consensus about the winner until the country ruled.)
none of that is to say that the church or its leaders are politically neutral. my observation is that there are some local wards where democrats are comfortable, but there are plenty of wards and stakes and individuals that push Dems away.
re: hawk’s comment about the Motab. I expect they will be invited to the inauguration again and I imagine they will accept. I wish that when they get the invite, they would politely decline. “Sorry, we can’t go that day,” they could say. “We will be busy washing our hair.”
If you want to assess the church’s degree of political neutrality, just read the official newsroom obits/notices of passing of two senators (Reid and Hatch) and take stock of the differences.
The Motab has performed at the second inauguration of only one president. You guessed it (actually you probably didn’t)–Nixon.
I think that given Utah’s underperformance and recent historical precedent, there’s a good chance they won’t be invited. (Why do I keep making these hopeful predictions?)
The Motab has performed at the second inauguration of only one president. You guessed it (actually you probably didn’t)–Nixon.
I think that given Utah’s underperformance and recent historical precedent, there’s a good chance they won’t be invited. (Why do I keep making these hopeful predictions?)
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you…“ —Matthew 5:44, KJV Bible (emphasis added)
It’s been interesting to see this scripture only occasionally percolate into the above comment thread. Especially when one could argue it should be the primary text of any sermon about reckoning with Trump in religious terms. That is, if you profess to be a Christian. But Mormons from left to right, conservative to liberal, are focused—like this post—on the Church. Christ is just a brand name. Perhaps that’s why the above scripture hasn’t been prominent, or even directly quoted above, despite being so on the nose for the topic.
Also interesting to see the many and varied ways in which commentators suggested they would pray. I could picture Jesus reading this thread and saying, “Yeah, I shoulda been more clear on the manner and substance of prayers for one’s enemies.”
Actually, I prefer the Biden wording of praying for an administration, coming from an organization giving lip service to political neutrality. It helps create a tad bit of distance from demagoguery. And when white Christian nationalism has been baked into Mormonism all the way back to the Book of Mormon’s writing, we need all the political moderation we can find.
Personally, speaking as an agnostic, I think we could also use some genuine Gospels-based Christianity. But that’s not what this post or this topic is about. It’s about the Church
I Think Donald Trump Is a Insufferable Bully
The church writes a letter before the election saying they don’t endorse candidates but they can speak on issues and then mentioned abortion as an issue. The catholics on the same day issued a letter that said basically the same thing except they said both candidates (parties) have issues they are wrong on and mentioned abortion and immigration. So who did people vote for? Mormons voted for Trump 63% to Harris 33%, it’s where they were led. Catholics votes were much more evenly split with white catholics going 60% Trump and 40% Harris and Latino Catholics going 40% Trump and 60 % Harris.
Now Trump is in office and issuing Executive Orders right and left and the Church is urging restraint with immigration. All I can think of is you get what you vote for. The church is now in a position of pleading instead of leading its members.
I Think Donald Trump & Melania Trump are performed occult ritual at Mar-a-Lago Club
I Think Donald Trump Is Protection Prince Harry