Regardless of the outcome of this election, we are going to find out through the data what women think vs. what men think. According to pollsters, this election is the most polarized by gender election that we’ve had in the United States. There have also been many posts and articles of single men complaining that women won’t date them if they voted for Trump; it’s a question many on dating apps are asking as a deal breaker.
Years ago when I was in a Relief Society Presidency, we were talking about marriages that were splitting up over “deal breakers” women had. The president said she would leave her husband if he ever left the Church. I was somewhat shocked, partly because her husband was a convert and hadn’t been a member when they married, but also because it just seemed like a terrible reason to leave an otherwise happy marriage. You can’t control another person’s beliefs. I’m not even sure you can control your own beliefs.
Another counselor pointed out that everyone has their deal breaker, and I probably had one too. I said I couldn’t be married to someone who was a Trump supporter. I still feel that way. I haven’t been confronted with that possibility, and maybe I would behave differently if I were, but as a woman, that would feel like being married to someone who doesn’t respect women, who minimizes the reproductive dangers women face, or who is willing to sell women for what they think are more desirable economic policies (probably–although they would have to have some other beliefs I disagree with on that front as well; it’s just that economic policy disagreement is not a deal breaker to me).
During this election cycle, both campaigns keyed into these gender differences, and both took positions designed to appeal to women (Harris) or men (Trump). Trump went on Rogan and ultimately received his endorsement. Harris did not, and that will probably cost her as Rogan is incredibly malleable and has a huge influence among young men. One ad that really resonated for me was the “secret woman voter” ad in which women show up with their conservative husbands at the ballot. The husbands assume their wives will vote in lock step with them, but the women make eye contact and vote their own conscience, not what their husband thinks.
“He assumes I’m voting Republican. I just listen to him talk about his views, and I just nod my head and go uh huh,” she said. “And I’m thinking, yeah and my nieces have less bodily autonomy and rights at their ages than I had.”
When I was growing up, I had a viewfinder. One of the discs was an episode of Happy Days called “The Not Making of a President.” In the storyline, it’s the 1956 election between Eisenhower and Stevenson, and the majority of the episode is a political argument between father Howard Cunningham and son Richie Cunningham about the candidates. Richie thinks Stevenson is the better man. Howard blusters and rages that his family has always voted Republican, and “This is a staunch GOP family!” as if he can control the votes of everyone in the family by fiat. The last slide in the disc is an image of Marion Cunningham, Mrs. C, as she winks and smiles at the camera saying “I voted for Adlai Stevenson.”
Trump said in the final week of his campaign: “I’m going to do it, whether the women like it or not, I’m going to protect them.” Some of his supporters cheered for this sentiment, but many women recoiled at his lack of respect and his disdain for women’s consent, both of which seem consistent with his well documented history and bragging of sexual assault. His paternalistic attitudes may appeal to some men (and even to some women), but they are not appealing to the majority of women.
Charlie Kirk, who heads the conservative student group Turning Point, said that wives who covertly vote for Harris “undermine their husbands–who probably work his tail off to make sure that she can go and have a nice life and provide to the family.” Another conservative commentator said that if his wife voted differently than he did, he would see it as cheating. Tucker Carlson went on a disturbing rant comparing Trump to a father of a bratty teenage daughter who was going to give her a “vigorous spanking” when he got home because “this was HIS house” (implying it’s not hers), and he sets the rules. He gleefully shouted that no, it was not going to hurt him more than it hurt her.
Supporters at recent Trump rallies referred to Harris as having “pimp handlers” which is both sexist and racist, and when he falsely and bizarrely claimed she didn’t work at McDonald’s in high school, someone in the crowd yelled out that she “worked on the corner” which got a laugh from Trump.
Trump has also reiterated that if he’s elected, women will no longer have to think about abortion–which feels coded to mean that he will sign a national ban, after already removing protections at the national level through his extremist SCOTUS appointments. Some of his supporters have stated that Harris would be unqualified because she might get her period, revealing that they don’t understand that as a 60 year old woman, she probably hasn’t had a period in at least 5 years, and that regardless, having a period doesn’t make you unfit to be a leader. I’ve seen men on X who opined that women were “undisciplined” for not “holding it in” when they got their period, as if it’s a choice whether or not to menstruate. There’s a good reason women aren’t eager for male protection, and why women want their choices to be respected.
It’s totally possible, in my opinion, to want fewer abortions, but to protect abortion as a procedure to be decided on between a doctor and patient; as we’ve learned, you cannot separate elective abortion from miscarriage and post-partum care when there are “retained products” in the uterus. It’s extremely common and life threatening for these conditions to go unaddressed. I personally had to have my uterus scraped out post-partum in an emergency procedure that is now outlawed in several red states. I was at risk of bleeding to death. Even women who want to have children want to keep the risk of maternal mortality as low as possible. How many of these men are eager to be single fathers after their wives bleed out in parking lots? Or do they just assume they’ll marry again, maybe someone younger and hotter, like men have done for millennia?
And then there are ectopic pregnancies which are never viable and will always endanger the woman’s life if not addressed medically. The procedure used to address them is an abortion, even though the fetus cannot survive the pregnancy. Additionally, some states have given the fetus more rights than the mother, without considering the fact that the fetus is physically dependent on a living host and will not survive if she dies. These existing bans in red states have made it clear that you can’t effectively make it illegal in one case and not another; they have also illustrated that many men simply don’t care or understand women’s reproductive systems, yet still want to be in control of them.
This gender gap is an important shift that, regardless of the election outcome, is going to continue to create societal impacts. About 12 years ago, I was at lunch with another Mormon feminist who suggested that the Church would have to listen to women because so many were dissatisfied with how things were going. I said I disagreed, that the Church would gladly see every single feminist leave the Church rather than give up an inch of control. I still suspect I was right about that, but as Elisa pointed out, more and more women are quiet quitting, refusing to go along to get along, turning down callings and assignments, wearing clothes and underwear they choose, and skipping out of the temple if they don’t like the sexism inherent in the ceremony.
Which brings us back to the woman vote, and what the widening gender gap might portend. One thing that seems to be inevitable is progress. Some pointed out that they thought a wife having to vote “secretly” was a throwback to the 1950s because it was not how marriages are today, and I suspect that it’s true, on the whole, that marriages are far more equal than they used to be. I have often noted that Mormon marriages are far more equal than their Evangelical counterparts, in practice, although Mormon leaders (who are just ridiculously old at this point) don’t portray that reality very well in their talks.
I also suspect that until women’s healthcare protections are restored, we will see a drop in live births. With this widening political gender gap, I also suspect we will see a drop in marriages, and that the trend that conservative men will have a harder time finding wives who will put up with paternalistic attitudes will continue. There is evidence that churches are losing women at unprecedented levels, and this is not just an LDS trend [1]. Will it continue?
- Do you know anyone who voted differently from their spouse? Was it in the open or secret?
- Do you think men or women are more dissatisfied with church? Are you seeing a shift or is the trend remaining the same where you are (where more men leave than women)?
- Do you have relationship deal breakers?
- Do you foresee impacts to social trends (birth rates, marriage rates, etc.) due to the abortion bans and gender divide that’s widening?
Discuss.
[1] 40% of Gen Z women claim to be religiously unaffiliated compared to 34% of Gen Z men.
Wheat & Tares 
My wife has often voted more conservative than I have. In 2016, I couldn’t bring myself to vote for either Trump or Clinton, so I voted third party. She, because of her own personal experience with the Clintons and their policies, held her nose and voted for Trump. While we discussed issues and positions beforehand, neither of us have ever tried to pressure the other into voting a certain way.
Yes, it seems for some people that political differences and religious differences are deal breakers, more so than in previous decades. For LDS, I guess that’s just the flip side of the Church’s strong encouragement over the years to marry within the faith — people reasonably conclude that the Church therefore encourages you, a zealous member, to leave a marriage, even an otherwise happy and successful marriage, if your spouse leaves the Church. I honestly don’t know how many senior leaders or local leaders go that far, but I’m sure some of them do. There are some LDS who are married to the Church more than they are married to their spouse, perhaps without even realizing it.
Abortion bans, gender divides, social media, online noise from every direction — everything seems to be chipping away at stable relationships. We get riled up about too many things now. Society (and not just America, it’s all over) just seems to be slowly unraveling.
I have been thinking about the Republican reaction to the Julia Robert’s ad for Harris. They male idiots screaming about how she is destroying marriages really need a good look in the mirror. If a wife is *afaid* to tell her husband how she honestly feels, the husband is the problem. He is the dominating, intimidating problem. It is not the wife thinking for herself that is out of line with real Christianity, but the husband who thinks he has a right to “fix” his wife’s bad thinking. It is not the intimidated wife who is the marriage and trust destroying a**hat. But the husband who has destroyed his wife’s ability to trust that he will accept her feelings as just as valid as his own. It is him intimidation of her that is destroying trust in the marriage, not the wife wanting to vote her own conscience and not be mocked, corrected, shamed, punished, beaten, or invalidated in any way.
For years I voted different than my husband and if he had asked, I would have told him who I voted for because I trusted that he would still love and respect me even if I voted for, gasp, Obama. It was never a problem that I voted different than my husband and didn’t tell him. Because we respected each other.
The husband in that ad whose wife feels she needs to deceive him about who she voted for does NOT feel loved and respected. And THAT is the problem the jerk repugnicans refuse to see.
Hillary was right. They are deplorable. I am finished giving repugnicans excuses about how they are really good people. No, they are racist, misogynists, homophobic deplorables.
I know multiple couples where the husband started questioning the Church and the wife then demanded a divorce. I know with at least one of them, the husband was willing to do all the outward stuff (basically be a PIMO, Physically In, Mentally Out) but the wife still demanded a divorce.
Interestingly, there is a very gendered difference here. Maybe its just my social circle, but moving away from the Church seems to be a deal breaker for a bunch of Mormon women, but not necessarily for men.
will be interesting to see what happens to the divorce rate in next couple years…
My husband voted for Trump, I voted for Harris. He said some obnoxious things a few times and I held my ground and reminded him that we could have different opinions.
He sent me a graph of votes for president by demographic… I was heartbroken to see so many women vote for Trump. We’ll see what the final numbers are but I was really hoping that even if she didn’t win, there would be a substantial gender divide…
“Interestingly, there is a very gendered difference here. Maybe its just my social circle, but moving away from the Church seems to be a deal breaker for a bunch of Mormon women, but not necessarily for men.” – Zwingli
That’s because a woman’s authority at church is directly correlated with whom she is married to and/or who her son(s) are as a key point. Secondary authority venues for women at church are a) extended family & social circle, b) callings, c) skillset, d) affability/how well she “listens to” and “gets along with” men.
It isn’t just the stability in the eternity at play for women at church – it’s the lifestyle she leads at church that is tied to how active her husband is.
I had a weird situation where I was pitied a lot by the women at church because my husband wasn’t active at church when I was in my faith transition. It was just a “weird relational fuzziness” at the time – I honestly had much bigger fish to fry at the time. But now I see that I was “usurping social authority” by speaking up and speaking out when my husband had no callings or respect from the community to have that kind of social currency.
Looking at the results of the elections in Utah, I’d say that not much changed. It’s still 65/35 Republicans over Democrats statewide. In more Urban/Democrat areas, Democrats win 55/45. I’m sure some women are voting differently than their husbands because I’ve heard some women tell me they are doing that, but I think, for the most part, most couples vote alike because the cognitive dissonance is too much to handle on a daily basis. On a personal level, my mother hasn’t started voting her mind until years after my father’s death. She may not have liked his views (at least she said that to me after he died), but while he was alive, she backed him up.
It will be interesting to see what happens to the divorce rates in the next couple of years. Even if the rates don’t change, divorce is still an individual thing, and couples going their separate way based on voting/politics might be a stretch but could be a possibility. I think the more couples have in common, the better. It works with little things but is important with bigger things like religion or politics. I wouldn’t say differences would be a deal-breaker but other things would have to be “really” good to make up the difference.
Election Results:
Winners: The undereducated, bigots, homophobes, misogynists, TBMs, evangelical nationalists, felons, and barbed wire manufacturers.
Losers: Women, minorities, followers of the actual gospel of Christ, the homeless, immigrants and reasonable people everywhere.
Feel free to add more.
My husband and I are registered Republicans that voted for Harris. Nevada went for Harris and I am grateful for this small mercy. We will remain registered Republicans, not because we support Trump, but because our local government is controlled entirely by the Republican party, and we need to be in on the choice of our county commissioners.
I really really liked Harris. My husband was less enthusiastic but we were in agreement that this was the best choice for our country and family.
We both have changed our views on abortion in recent years and we don’t want any government intervention on that topic. However, I think Harris made an error in making it the central issue of her campaign. Trump had vacillated on that topic recently. He came off in such a way that I do not believe it is a central issue for him. None of my 5 sons voted for Trump. All but one voted for Harris. My son who voted against her voted libertarian because he felt like Harris was so in your face pro abortion. I explained that libertarians don’t get in the way of abortion either. He said, yeah but they don’t promote it like Harris did.
I have an uneducated friend that I asked about her vote. She responded that she didn’t think our country was ready for a woman president. It’s an interesting response. She lives in rural Mississippi and is dying of cancer due to the horrible health care there. She’s disabled and she and her family are dependant on government aid. But yet, she still thought Harris would be a bigger problem for our country than Trump🤷
Amy, you are right on the money about women and their pecking order based on the men’s position in the ward. My husband is an introvert who avoids leadership and callings beyond the Primary at all costs. I am an out spoken woman in many ways. It upsets that patriarchal dynamic such that we do not fit into our ward community in the expected way.
In recent years when I came to discover that I disagree with patriarchy, I shared my concerns with my best friend in another state. She couldn’t grasp my concerns at all because she always feels listened to and fully included in every decision at church. Of course, her husband has served in their bishopric at least 4 times over the years. It gives her an influence I can never have, but yet she remains blind to the exclusion of women like me (and also single women) from having any influence or say whatsoever on what occurs in their ward community.
What she cannot understand is the betrayal we suffer as we discover that in spite of sacrificing our lives to do things as we are told by our leaders, after all our personal spiritual growth, nobody cares at all about what we have to offer. We fade into the background as young women with little children are asked to lead organizations, because the men can count on them to defer to them and support all their decisions. They know we mature women are more likely to speak up and have our own ideas. We are less likely to defer to the men without comment. In their eyes it’s best to keep such women far away from any influence. Nothing nefarious about it, but it would be uncomfortable for them.
I fade back and enjoy participating in the music and my friendships in the ward. Sometimes my husband comes, sometimes he doesn’t. My kids are through with it. In some ways I am glad about that, because I no longer have to worry about how they may be damaged by anti LGBTQ rhetoric.
“Nevada went for Harris and I am grateful for this small mercy.”
Currently the Associated Press shows Trump leading in NV by 4.7% with 84% of the votes counted.
I am a feminist and “nuanced” church member happily married to a fairly traditional LDS man. It works well because we share many basic values and genuinely respect each other. We sometimes vote differently, and don’t have any problem talking with each other about who we are voting for and why. I will admit that it took us a while to get to that level of trust and comfort, and we still have times when the disagreements are difficult. We keep working at it. I do not discuss either religion or politics with any member of his family.
Lack of trust or respect are deal breakers for me, not disagreements on issues or beliefs.
I think we as a society would benefit if we could develop ways of supporting boys and men that don’t harm girls and women, but I don’t think that will happen soon. I do understand that the changes in women’s expectations and opportunities have been difficult for some/many men. I think the ways many are reacting to those changes are making things worse. I’ve been amazed at the number of men I’ve read who push to repeal the 19th amendment because women’s suffrage was the worst mistake we’ve ever made. I’m not at all surprised that women don’t want to date someone who voted for Trump, especially if it was an enthusiastic vote. Why would I want to be with someone who sees me as less than?
From my LDS perspective, God does not limit my potential. Why would I accept limits from a man?
I think that men who were dissatisfied by church disengaged earlier over historical information (and are still leaving).
I think women are disengaging with the church more commonly now, and that it is rooted in Patriarchy, Autonomy, and the realities of care-giving (and employment) burning them out.
I think Gen Z men are coming back to the church community because they want relationships with women and because the number of women isn’t as threatening as it used to be because women born in the 1970’s and beyond are leaving the church community – especially Gen Z women.
What has changed is the increasing executive load of employment, education, family care, and personal care. The church community has been diminishing in light of those burdens – and Patriarchy has made some of those burdens much heavier. A main one is allowing the gendered conversation to distrust and “talk past each other” because the supports offered at church and in the church community are shutting voices down and excluding individuals “through righteousness” rather then creating and fostering crucial conversations.
I have read all of the very interesting comments here.
One thing that I see, and I might be wrong, is that the Church is more important to members than their marriage.
The Church, not the beautiful Gospel of Jesus Christ but the organization of just one of many Christian denominations here on Earth.
And again I do not see the life expression of the Second Greatest Commandment, “Love they neighbor as thyself”.
It appears to me, and again I might be wrong, but there is some kind of strange and weird belief in the behavior of Mormons of what I see as worshiping the arm of the flesh.
Well, let’s see what happens. At least there won’t be a Jan. 6th in the making. Do you think he’ll do everything he said he would like, rounding up immigrants and those who have spoken against him? Are we going to be happy when tariffs are raised that we have to pay higher prices? How about when there are nationwide laws made against women’s health? He can be convicted of crimes but won’t have to pay. Will that reflect well on our country, or will it reflect well on Republicans? Are they still God’s party in the Ezra Taft Benson image? Will Justice for all become justice for some? I feel good about my vote. I don’t mind being a part of the 49% that didn’t vote for him, and even though I don’t like to say, “I told you so,” so, I will wait, watch, and see what he does and continue to advocate for what I believe.
When Trump said he saw the hand of God protecting him so he could lead this nation back to greatness, I saw God wiping his hands and letting us to our own devices like the ancient Israelites and Nephites. There were plenty of prophets out there warning us just not the one we hoped for.
I am terrified. His comments and actions are all from the dictator’s playbook 101.
There’s lots of stuff Trump said the first time that he never did. He’s older now. He will probably pick a bunch of yes men that won’t take initiative. I hope not a lot happens. However, he has all the power that he wants. Every branch of government.
Hopefully, anything bad he does will convince people to kick the Republicans out in two years.
Thanks for the correction KLC. My kids tell me that I may have confused the Senate race which is closer, with the presidential race.
So so disappointing and confusing.
My first question when I saw the ads about women secretly voting for Harris so as to avoid consequences from their husbands was whether it would backfire. Would it give men the idea that they could vote for Trump and then lie about it? I wonder how many husbands told their wives they were voting for Harris but didn’t. I could see it happening in many politically “moderate” marriages/partnerships so that the man can falsely lay claim (with their partners and others) to being enlightened on women’s issues while in reality appeasing his baser instincts that he has been conditioned to feel. I can also see lots of younger men saying they voted for Harris when they didn’t so they don’t get blacklisted on the dating scene. It will become like the Beyonce test – where men started to catch on that women of color were asking on a date how the man felt about Beyonce as an indicator of their true feelings about strong women of color. At some point all the men became serious Beyonce fans.
I mean, any man who voted for Trump can’t value telling the truth that much, so lying about who they voted for is not a far stretch.
Not-so-fun thought: The only time Trump lost a general election was to a white man. Both of his victories were when his opponents were women. That implies something about my country that I do not like.
Lots of interesting observations here, and plenty to think about. That’s what I love about this community, so thanks for that, truly. I am honestly devastated and horrified that after everything we know, an unstable rapist who just mimed fellating a microphone beat a nearly flawless, articulate, fun, far more intelligent, and more likeable woman. When I took a trip to the Baltics, Slovakia and Poland last month it was partly because who knows how long the Baltic countries will exist if Trump is in office. We shall see, but Putin would certainly love to rebuild the lost USSR, and Trump could not care less what happens to these people. Ukraine will certainly fall. The only way to avoid some wars is to make a deal with the devil, and Trump loves nothing more than making a deal.
Because Trump has mentally and physically declined so much, and because he is personally unstable, he’s also unpredictable. The Project 2025 people are the scary ones; their agenda is basically an Evangelical American Taliban. Will he let them destroy the country and strip away even more civil rights or not? We shall see. This election also makes another thing crystal clear: poor people don’t understand economics. I think we knew that, but it’s obvious now if it wasn’t before. I get being upset about the price of eggs. Thinking that any of Trump’s proposals or deals with guys like Elon Musk are the solution is just not realistic. But Trump is flexible, morally and policy-wise. It’s possible he ditches anything he tries that doesn’t work quickly. And he’s at least unable to run again in 4 years, so he’s basically not beholden to any constituency. Maybe he throws enough spaghetti at the wall that some of it sticks. His threats to deport millions of migrants are not only bad policy (nobody else is going to pick the produce), but also where do you send them? You have to have a receiving country. Running detention centers for millions of people is not practical, and here’s a dirty little secret: the government already knows where most undocumented immigrants are because they pay taxes using a government-issues tax ID. That’s something small business owners in border states know that the rest of the country doesn’t seem to be aware of.
Amy’s observations about why women care more about their husband’s church status than husbands care about their wives’ church status is spot on: patriarchy is the real problem with this country, and it explains everything we need to know about the vote. I’ve been listening to the book Normal Women by British historian Philippa Gregory. It’s a history of the lives and rights of women in Britain over the last 1000+ years, and it’s basically the same old story. Women who live in patriarchal power structures will use those power structures, including against other women.
lws329: When I hear people say “the world isn’t ready for a woman president,” what they mean is that THEY believe women are second rate. The world is not only ready for women to be president; women have been world leaders in many other countries and over the EU. Mexico literally has a woman president right now. When people say this, it’s almost always clear that they have never been anywhere outside the US and don’t know much about other countries or the world stage.
My sister did not vote, but said that if she had chosen to vote, she would have voted for Trump, not because she likes him, but because of the abortion stuff, she falls in line with the Church’s position on abortion. This wasn’t because of her husband, who also didn’t vote, but said he if had, he would’ve voted for Harris.
Also, in case there’s not another thread on the election, I will take this opportunity to say ‘told you so’.
A few months ago, on this blog, I observed in a comment that the Harris campaign was running to the right on issues like Israel’s war on Gaza (and now everyone else around them) and immigration. I would guess that their calculus was that, for every left-leaning democrat (mostly people under 40) that they lost they would more than make up for by peeling off moderate republicans. I said this was probably going to be a bad idea, and here we are.
Trump only seems to have lost around 2 million voters. He got 74 million in 2020, and is getting around 72 million now. The Harris campaign failed to pick up moderate republicans or convince enough republicans to stay home.
Meanwhile Harris currently has around 67 million votes. That’s 13 million less than the 80 million people that voted for Biden back in 2020.
Now I’m sure that racism and sexism are relevant factors here, but I think an even bigger factor is just that the Harris’ campaign strategy backfired big time, alienating left-leaning voters to try and pick up right-wing voters failed. Harris lost Michigan (with a significant population of Palestinian and arab voters) by less than a percent.
Overall though, even the sexist and racist barriers plus the unforced error of running to the right on foreign and domestic policy weren’t the biggest issues here. I think that if it had Biden, he still would’ve lost.
The issue is basically that the Biden/Harris administration hasn’t really done anything to ease the American people’s increasing immiseration.
Most people got freaked out by Trump’s win in 2016 and the subsequent COVID epidemic and recession, the apocalypse was upon us. So we all went to vote in the ‘most important election of our lives’ and all that, and everyone turned out, Biden won, and then…. nothing happened.
Things continued to be terrible even after Biden won, inflation took off, the most unpopular war overseas since Vietnam started, and even for specific issues like abortion, Roe v. Wade was overturned, and the Biden/Harris administration did nothing. They made no concrete steps or even plans to tackle the filibuster, codify Roe v. Wade, or tell Israel to knock it off. They just kept saying “vote for us, not because we’re going to fix any of this (because we can’t/won’t) but because the other guys are worse”
and that’s about the extent of Biden/Harris argument, and when people “this is the most important election of our lives” again, they’re going to wonder if it really is, because it seems like despite voting blue, it didn’t actually do anything, so why bother?
The lesson here for the democrats should be that you can only get much mileage out ‘but the other guy is worse’, that worked exactly one time. You should actually do things that your voters want, and not just trying to guilt/scold people into voting for you.
Trump is more or less promising to do something, something terrible (punishing the immigrants), but it is something that his voters want, hence he didn’t lose as many votes as Harris did.
Hawk, I disagree that saying that this country isn’t ready for a woman president is any reflection on the person saying it. I think it is a statement of opinion of the sorry state of our country. Unfortunately, we live in a very sexist country and I think acknowledging that does not mean the person who sees that fact is also sexist. I said it to my Aussie friend just a few months ago and I very much believe that this country should grow up a realize women are just as strong and intelligent as men and be willing to vote for a woman. But there are just too many men that think women are unqualified because of being women. just an observation of fact. Twice now a competent qualified woman has been defeated by an incompetent unqualified idiot, but male macho idiot. If a man had been Biden’s VP, I think there is a good chance he would have won. But, Kamala is a woman and a black woman, the most disrespected group in the US. Other countries are not as sexist as the US. And unfortunatly, I don’t think the sexist idiots in our country are ready to accept a woman as president. There are just too many sexist idiots. I don’t think our church is ready for a woman as prophet, either. That is why I left the church and I am considering the same verdict on my sexist nation.
“Trump only seems to have lost around 2 million voters. He got 74 million in 2020, and is getting around 72 million now. The Harris campaign failed to pick up moderate republicans or convince enough republicans to stay home.
Meanwhile Harris currently has around 67 million votes. That’s 13 million less than the 80 million people that voted for Biden back in 2020″
Irrespective of your other arguments, there are many votes still to count, so these comparisons to 2020 are a little premature
lws329, “There’s lots of stuff Trump said the first time that he never did”
True. But many of his most ardent supporters say that what they admire about him is that he keeps his promises. In 2016 he had old-guard Republicans around him acting as guardrails against his worst impulses. Today, he will fill his cabinet with lackeys who will allow him to do anything he pleases.
A dark, dark day. I feel psychologically not well. Extremely angry and then sad. I’m not sure how I can move forward with many relationships in many ways.
The only time Trump lost a general election was to a white man. Both of his victories were when his opponents were women. That implies something about my country that I do not like.
I understand your reaction, but if it had been that same white man on the ballot yesterday, the results would have been even worse. All of Trumps flaws were on display–he even reveled in them–and he still won. This isn’t about gender. It’s way more serious than that.
I am with Brad D. Not well, realizing that I’ve not been living in the country I thought I did.
A post-Election Day story:
I’m casual buddies with the crossing guard at my kids’ school. We chat every morning and afternoon, she gets Christmas and last day of school gifts from us, etc. We talk about life–she’s back at community college with the goal of becoming a special ed teacher. Incredibly nice person, probably somewhere in her late twenties or early to mid thirties.
I live in a well-to-do area in a mostly working-class county that broke for Trump, the first time in a while we’ve been red. Trump flags everywhere, festooned golf carts, the whole deal. So she probably thought it was safe to ask me this afternoon, “Are you happy about the election?”
“Sadly, no,” I said. “But that’s what happens in a democracy. Losing is part of the deal, and you acknowledge it, try to make the country better, and try again next time.”
“Oh,” she said, “I’m sorry.”
“Are you happy about the election?” I asked her.
“I wished it wasn’t Pelosi. If it wasn’t, I’d probably have voted that way.”
“Excuse me?”
“Pelosi.”
“Do you mean Harris?”
“Uh–huh–oh, yes, yeah, Harris. If it had been somebody else, I would have voted for them instead. But yes, to answer your question, I’m happy.”
Again–this is a person who is kind to my kids, fair to the trouble-makers, works several jobs to make ends meet, cares for a disabled parent, and is headed back to school. I said, “Yes, I wish the Democrats had the chance for a primary so we could have decided as a group who the best candidate would have been.” (I likely would have still voted for Harris, which in hindsight seems like it would have been a mistake.) She reiterated that if that had happened, she might have voted differently. And I walked to the entrance of the school to wait for my kids.
I’ve been thinking about this conversation nonstop. This woman is not dumb, as tempted as I might be to label her that way if I didn’t know her. She makes great observations all the time about the world she knows. She picks up on small cues from the kids right and left, things I–a PhD and college professor–don’t notice, but somehow she thought the election was a contest between Donald Trump and Nancy Pelosi? (I love Nancy, btw, but I know how [unfairly] divisive a figure she is.) My take-aways (so far): So many people, maybe, are just working too hard to be paying much attention, and their lives in general are tough, and so they go for the rich dude they’ve seen on tv for forever who shakes things up? My second takeaway is that misogyny in this country is a potent, toxic weapon that seeps into everything. God bless Nancy Pelosi–she has endured so much scorn and she and her family so much danger because of it. And God bless Kamala too. I’m proud to have supported her candidacy.
This has been such a gut-check for me. I am not sure what I personally can do differently to make things better or easier. One thing I’m preparing to do with the help of the Undocumented Advocates group on my campus is to participate in blocking the entrance(s) to my school and/or classroom should ICE (or whoever Trump sends) arrive to deport our students. I’m learning a lot in a hurry about how to prepare for an arrest for civil disobedience. Fortunately, people are falling over themselves to help: lawyers who are eager to represent us for no charge, people willing to donate for bail funds, etc.
I am sorry for the long post and deeply grateful for this community. Times like these it’s nice to be able to rely on your faith group. I can’t always do that in my ward, and this community is such a gift.
Golden Glue, “The lesson here for the democrats should be that you can only get much mileage out ‘but the other guy is worse”
Wasn’t that Trump’s whole campaign? That the Democrats are worse? He called Kamala Harris a fascist and a communist.
What the Democrats learned is that the country is under a horrific delusion and many are increasingly hard to reach since sources of information, because of algorithms and a decentralized media system that doesn’t feature investigations fact-based journalism but it’s heavily opinion-focused, are more walled off from dissenting arguments. The future is bleak. Very bleak. Lies, corruption, and fraud have taken over. We should be very scared. There is no hope to be had in Trump. If he motions to undertake mass deportations and impose across-the-board tariffs, an inflationary recession is guaranteed. At that point, however, more people will associate their deteriorating economic state with Trump and the Trumpist fever might begin to break. But I’ve been waiting for that fever to break for a long time.
A BYU alumna of the year once told me that in her experience women can be the most forceful and ardent supporters of patriarchy. She does charity work overseas and has witnessed terrible things at the hands of women. She explained that it’s because they have a lot to gain from the existing power structure.
I have 4 sisters, a mother, and a mother in law. 1 of those 6 women voted for Harris.
Brad D said, “In 2016 he had old-guard Republicans around him acting as guardrails against his worst impulses. Today, he will fill his cabinet with lackeys who will allow him to do anything he pleases.”
Here’s a paragraph from a blog post that I ended up not publishing: “On September 5, 2018, a member of the Trump administration anonymously published an op-ed in the NY Times entitled “I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration“. The author said there were multiple people in the Trump administration who worked to block some of the President’s worst and most destructive impulses. He used the memorable phrase, “know that there are adults in the room” in an effort to reassure the country that there were sane and responsible people trying to counter Trump’s general incompetence. The author writes: “The root of the problem is the president’s amorality. Anyone who works with him knows he is not moored to any discernible first principles that guide his decision making.”
All those people who worked with Trump who refused to endorse him for a second term, and even warned people against voting for him. Trump didn’t run the country in his first term. He won’t be running the country in his second term either. The people who wrote the 2025 Project will be running things.
Harris ran a near pitch-perfect campaign. Sure, there will be people speculating about a few issues, but the truth is, her campaign was excellent. She lost because America has chosen racism, sexism, and general bigotry. It wasn’t even close. This wasn’t Harris’s fault and trying to blame the Democrats will just divide us further. We need to unite so we can defend the structures that protect democracy. America knew who Trump was. We’ve all seen his presidency. And America voted for him.
And yeah about average voters not understanding economics. Trump’s second term is going to be great for billionaires. Not so great for the rest of us.
I woke up this morning and heard the news. I texted my daughters and tried to be positive about getting through the next four years and how we are still in a good position. We basically concluded that it’s his game now, we can sit back and watch, and we know he’ll mess things up even worse than before and maybe the people that voted for him holding their noses will finally see something about the man and start standing up to him.
But, this afternoon, my oldest daughter, who is gay, married, and with two young boys, sent me a picture. Her neighbor had taken down her Trump sign and replaced it so only my daughter’s household could see it, in other words, in the backyard over the top of the fence, a sign that said “Pride falls before the destruction.” Pride was written in rainbow colors, and it was clearly pointed at my daughter’s relationship and family. So, the hate returns on the very day of the election results.
I spent a few minutes on Facebook and driving to town to get a haircut. The trucks were out with their flags, which I haven’t seen much of during the campaign. I feel sorry for my daughters and for women in general. The new norm, sanctioned by the words and actions of Trump, has very quickly brought back a division so many were trying to heal.
I’m going to be sad again. I’ll work on being positive again tomorrow.
Brad D.,
Trump’s message was “they’re the bad guys” AND ” we’re going to do something about it”. There was the promise of punishing people. There was the promise of concrete action (an evil concrete action, but one the base is vested in)
Harris’ campaign had no equivalent, and importantly, didn’t have much to show for it. And this isn’t a Kamala Harris problem per se, if had been Biden or Walz, I think Trump still would have won.
The problem is that when the great evil of Trump was vanquished in 2020, everything was still terrible and indeed got worse and the Biden campaign did basically nothing about it and Harris didn’t even seem like they were going to to do anything about it.
The macro-issue here is that we’re entering the death-throes of neoliberalism, regular people feel the the misery and alienation that come with, and they’re looking for some alternative to the collapsing status quo, and the far right is only the open door, because the door on the left has been nailed shut for nearly a century now.
I’m glad you’re realizing that we’re doomed and all that, but if you only feel that way when Trump wins an election but otherwise felt that everything was all hunky-dory when Biden, Obama, Bush, etc were in power, then you’re missing the forest for the trees here. America is the bad guy, regardless of who is sitting in the oval office. We are the baddies.
Golden Glue, you’ve been duped by the baseless right-wing talking point that Harris had no plans. Nevermind that Trump said that he had “concepts of a plan” to replace Obamacare. Harris had plans to expand housing construction and tax breaks for small businesses. On top of that, she promised to keep Obamacare, Social Security, and Medicaid. Pray tell, what plans did Trump even have? When he talked of plans, they were zany and incoherent. Deport all illegals. How? Bomb Mexico. Seriously? Achieve a new age of prosperity. By more tax cuts that blow up the deficit?
The main issue is that we’re dealing with propaganda and mass delusion. I fear that only an economic crisis for which people blame Trump will finally destroy Trumpism. Trumpism isn’t sustainable in the least. You know that right?
I fear for the females in my family: my wife, daughter, daughter-in-law, and two granddaughters. The Americans who went to the polls Tuesday preferred a misogynistic narcissist who is a convicted felon and rapist to a highly qualified biracial woman. But there’s more. Russia is ruled by a macho dictator/authoritarian who is supported by a cadre of billionaire oligarchs and a white-nationalist religion (Orthodox Church) who freely uses the military to extend power and dominance. Change the names, but how is that any different from what Trump et al. will be come January 20, 2025?
I fear for the females in my family: my wife, daughter, daughter-in-law, and two granddaughters. The Americans who went to the polls Tuesday preferred a misogynistic narcissist who is a convicted felon and rapist to a highly qualified biracial woman. But there’s more. Russia is ruled by a macho dictator/authoritarian who is supported by a cadre of billionaire oligarchs and a white-nationalist religion (Orthodox Church) who freely uses the military to extend power and dominance. Change the names, but how is that any different from what Trump et al. will be come January 20, 2025?
Those of you hoping for people to turn against Trump after things go south, that Trumpism is not sustainable, etc., have still not learned: there is literally nothing that will hurt him politically. This is a personality cult. There is nothing too vile for him to say, too stupid for him to think, too incompetent or immoral for him to do, that will change anything. Because he has already done all of those things and it has only resulted in a more complete takeover of the Republican party and a more decisive election victory. Abandon all hope, ye who live in the US and Ukraine. The only way out is for Trump to die, and he will probably live to be 105 if any of his good fortune extends to his longevity.
my wife is on a Mormon women’s blog where they believe God chose trump and got him elected. Nothing democrats could do can beat that, and God didn’t want you listening to democrats anyway. I don’t know what proportion of trump supporters are like these but I suspect fair few.
allergy, Trumpism isn’t sustainable because its economic policies will cause downturn. Once that downturn happens, Trump and Trumpism are dead politically. Other than that I agree with you. Still, that won’t stop me from saying that Trump is a criminal, a liar, and dangerous lunatic who should be stopped at all costs. I won’t stop fighting against the mass delusion that has taken hold on so much of the US population and trying to persuade people that Trump and Trumpism are wrong. The silver lining is that I foresee a blue wave crashing hard against the US political shore by 2028. The political pendulum still swings back and forth. Now that Republicans are in the driver’s seat (still don’t know on the House, but probably there as well), it will be the tendency of Americans to blame any and all problems on those in power. And that is precisely what I’ll be doing. Sitting on the sidelines taking potshot after potshot against Republicans and attributing every problem that happens (because they will inevitably happen) to them. Also, bear in mind that Trump is in cognitive decline. You think I’m not going to talk about how Trump is an old decrepit man who is mentally uncapable of governing the country? Because that’s another thing that I won’t stop talking about. Relish in the moment now Republicans. Democrats are tired from the campaign, resting, and still in mourning. But rest assured it will be four years of relentlessness against the engine of corruption and incompetence that is the Republican Party.
And Gaza 😐
When I got married, I was a Republican and my wife was a Democrat, so I went into it knowing we would be voting for opposing candidates. We did so for at least 5 years. In my view it was a healthy way to start a marriage, loving and respecting each other enough to talk about our differing views in the open. The only thing I would say about the women depicted in that TV ad is that is not the kind of marriage I would want. I quit voting Republican 20 years ago, so we’re more aligned now. In some ways I think life experience has made her a bit more conservative than she used to be, but we’re still both left of center and wouldn’t give serious consideration to today’s Republican party.
I do think about the emerging gender divide among young people, partly because my kids are of the age that they could be looking for partners in the next few years. This election is showing a significant gender divide over the issue of abortion, but to me that’s just a symptom of a bigger cultural divide between genders. Women are getting educated at much higher rates than men now. When I read about the exceptionally low birth rates in some other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, China and Russia are some of the leaders in this category), a common theme seems to be a significant disconnection between the genders over expectations of what family life looks like. Apparently it’s widely accepted that a majority of women work in many of those countries, largely out of an economic necessity, but many men haven’t yet comprehended what an equal division of labor at home looks like, and a lot of women would rather opt out of family life altogether than sign up for what amounts to working a double shift. I wonder if we’re headed there in the US.
“I do think about the emerging gender divide among young people, partly because my kids are of the age that they could be looking for partners in the next few years. This election is showing a significant gender divide over the issue of abortion, but to me that’s just a symptom of a bigger cultural divide between genders. Women are getting educated at much higher rates than men now. When I read about the exceptionally low birth rates in some other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, China and Russia are some of the leaders in this category), a common theme seems to be a significant disconnection between the genders over expectations of what family life looks like. Apparently it’s widely accepted that a majority of women work in many of those countries, largely out of an economic necessity, but many men haven’t yet comprehended what an equal division of labor at home looks like, and a lot of women would rather opt out of family life altogether than sign up for what amounts to working a double shift. I wonder if we’re headed there in the US.” – Quentin
We have arrived there:)
My 14 year old biological female child gives me so much crap for the stuff I handle in the uneven distribution of labor as I work and do a lot of the things while her father is at home. She is not wrong – her father doesn’t comprehend what it takes to coordinate family life sustainably, and cannot pull the equal share of the load. She already plans to be a “single cat lady” right out of the gate.
What she is not seeing is that shaming him based on what he “won’t/can’t/should” be doing won’t get the tasks done, won’t help him be his best self, and takes away his autonomy about “what he can realistically do” and “what is really needed”. I can hold him accountable to accomplish responsibilities he has genuine capacity to handle (to a degree). Better yet, he is holding himself accountable to accomplish responsibilities he has genuine capacity to handle – which takes me out of that equation. We have done the work to get this far – despite “The Proclamation to the Family”, church heritage, family expectations, and our shadow selves.
CAVEAT:
He isn’t “getting a free pass” on workload. Our way of life required an overhaul of what we expect of each other and how we communicate our expectations/hopes/needs/requests – all that. We have done hard work in counseling for years now, and we “are putting in the hours” to make a sustainable life for us based on who we are rather then accepting what has handed to us.
And yet – we would not have arrived at this point if my husband had been raised in a culture that didn’t outsource the work of “daily living” / executive functioning / creating a household to women as the “2nd shift”.
yourfoodallergy: Based on my view, I respectfully disagree. 73 million people voted for Trump for all sorts of reasons. Some people do have a line and if he crosses that line they will change their allegiance. Others will simply move their goalposts. I’ve seen both scenarios firsthand. I guess the magnitude of the two is up for debate and you may be correct that it’s just not enough people to matter.
I’m seeing the same thing that Quentin and Amy observes. Young people all over the world are looking at their two working parents struggling to get by, feeling tremendous guilt that there is just not the time and money to fund and transport kids to a million playdates and extracurricular activities, and they aren’t interested in that life. And for the women paying attention, they see that the invisible labor largely falls on their shoulders and so they are extra keen to walk away from trad life. I cannot blame them. If I got a do-over, I would prioritize my own well being differently.
It’s interesting that the political party and the faith traditions that self-brand as family centered are really just patriarchy centered and the youth see right through it. My kids are so much wiser than I was at that age. They see things I did not.
Chadwick,
“the political party and the faith traditions that self-brand as family centered are really just patriarchy centered”
This really says it well.
Then can anyone explain why so many people voted for the candidate and party that will fix none of the issues that concern them, that proposed zero policies intended to address these issues? Is it just F the party in power and let’s watch the world burn?
jaredsbrother, you may understand that Trump’s planned across-the-board tariffs will just increase prices for most goods, but the Republicans who voted for Trump don’t understand this, nor does Trump (easily our dumbest president). They will be very upset when things don’t work out. Trump will probably blame Biden or illegal immigrants or the Chinese or trans athletes, and Trump’s followers will probably believe him! So in coming years we’re all going to pay a stupidity tax by way of another Trump-induced bout of inflation, as other countries will certainly raise their tariffs in response. I won’t have much sympathy for the inevitable Trumper complaints when both prices and unemployment go up.
“It’s interesting that the political party and the faith traditions that self-brand as family centered are really just patriarchy centered and the youth see right through it.” – Chadwick
It’s “old man patriarchy centered”, not “young man patriarchy centered”.
A few years ago, we had President and Sister Nelson come to our stake to visit. The powers that be scheduled Saturday afternoon leadership meetings in 2 different buildings at roughly the same time – 1 for the men, 1 for the women.
5 of the approx. 8 couples from our unit had both a husband a wife scheduled to be at 1 of those meetings AND were also raising children or grandchildren. The stake leadership did not talk about child care – not the RS, not the Primary, not the youth groups. I brought it up at the ward level. Crickets. I offered to stay local and babysit for the other couples. I got crickets AND dirty looks from most of the moms. One of the men asked me about it after-the-fact because his family had been impacted about it too and he felt something like guilt I guess. The matter became academic as one of my kids had stomach flu – so my husband went and I stayed home.
The men in their 30’s with kids needed accommodations from the patriarchy that the old men didn’t think about – hadn’t had to think about.
Personally, I’ve come to believe that this election was/is about so very much more than just two people; Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. IMO neither one was a very good candidate and are unlikable in their own ways. (Surely, our country can produce – and put forward – so much better than this.)
But, when one looks at a voting map – across the United States – by county, it paints quite a picture……
I think what occurred on the CNN Political Panel in the wee hours of 11/06 is much more reflective of the “true” picture….
@ScottJenningsKY (X) “Revenge of the average, everyday working class American” CNN Political Panel 11/06/2024
Of course, I’m forced to acknowledge that coming to grips with the absolute disgust with government over-reach isn’t nearly as fun (or emotionally gratifying) as simply hating on an individual; but such are human beings.
jaredsbrother: Then can anyone explain why so many people voted for the candidate and party that will fix none of the issues that concern them, that proposed zero policies intended to address these issues? Is it just F the party in power and let’s watch the world burn?
AP VoteCast, a survey of the American electorate conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago for the Associated Press and Fox News talked to more than 120,000 voters nationwide. They found two major reasons voters backed Trump: concerns over everyday costs and worries about illegal immigration putting financial strains on their communities. The voters reported feeling they were falling behind more this year than in 2020. The survey also found that Trump made gains among lower-income voters, middle-income voters, and voters without college degrees, and that all these groups worried more about their family budget than they did about Harris message of the future of democracy. Trump also gained among voters whose overall household income is less than $100,000 per year. In other words, it’s the economy, stupid (that last part is my addition).
Perception is reality. For whatever reason it seems voters perceive an increased threat of illegal immigrants right now. I have no idea why and I live near an international border. And why Trump isn’t held accountable for making Mexico finance a wall during his tenure also leaves me puzzled.
On the economic stuff I’m not in any of the demographics mentioned above. Again, perception is reality. If the perception is I’m worse off today than I was four years ago then a change in power makes sense, especially if you are not a minority worried about deportation or your marriage and family being annulled or losing the ability to make healthcare choices or being targeted by your neighbors every time a pet goes missing. In other words, the white men got out and voted.
I’m of the opinion that the economic machine is more responsible than the political parties in all of this but again, perception is that politicians can change the economy, and perception is reality.
Now what? We support minorities rights however we can, and we refuse to pedestalize bullies.
Democratic strategist and CNN contributor Julie Roginsky said Thursday on CNN’s “Newsroom” that her party cannot speak to “normal people,” stating that it was “not the party of common sense.”
Roginsky said, “You know, I’m going to speak some hard truths to my friends in the Democratic Party. This is not Joe Biden’s fault. It’s not Kamala Harris fault. It’s not Barack Obama’s fault. It is the fault of the Democratic Party in not knowing how to communicate effectively to voters. We are not the party of common sense, which is the message that voters sent to us. For a number of reasons, for a number of reasons, we don’t know how to speak to voters. When we address Latinos — and language, and language has meaning — we address Latino voters. as Latinx, for instance, because that’s the politically correct thing to do, it makes them think that we don’t even live on the same planet as they do. When we are too afraid to say that, ‘Hey, college kids, if you’re trashing a campus of Columbia University because you aren’t happy about some sort of policy and you’re taking over a university and you’re trashing it and preventing other students from learning that that is unacceptable.’ But we’re so worried about alienating one or another cohort in our coalition that we don’t know what to say.”
She continued, “When normal people look at that and say, ‘Wait a second, I send my kids to college so they can learn, not so that they can burn buildings and trash lawns,’ right? And so on and so forth. When we put pronouns after names and say she/her, as opposed to saying, you know what, if I call you by the wrong pronoun, call me out, I’m sorry, I won’t do it again,” but stop with the virtue signaling and just speak to people like they’re normal. There’s nothing I’m going to say to Shermichael, that I’m not going to say to you, that I’m not going to say to somebody else. I speak the same language to everybody. But that’s not what Democrats do. We constantly try to parse out different ways of speaking to different cohorts because our focus groups or our polling shows that so-and-so appeals to such and such. That’s not how normal people think. It’s not common sense. And we need to start being the party of common sense again.”
“Joe Biden is not responsible for that. Neither is Kamala Harris. It is a problem that Democrats have had for years. I’ve been banging the drum on this for I don’t know how, probably ten years, if not longer, on this. We need to get back to being the party of common sense that people look at us and say, we understand you, we appreciate what you say because you speak our language. And until we do that, we should stop blaming other people for our own mistakes”
jaredsbrother: “Is it just F the party in power and let’s watch the world burn?” Yes, for many it is this. They don’t know how to solve problems either, so they are just choosing the opposite of what’s currently in power. That’s not everyone, but that’s some. Musk has literally said they will tear down the economy and start over. Fine for a billionaire, but not so good for the fools who just voted for it.
Dave B is right that Trump’s plans will result in disastrous effects to the economy. Tariffs will likely be passed on to consumers who rely on cheap foreign goods–prices will go up, deporting migrants will result in higher food prices and housing costs. The question is whether Trump will blame the previous administration for his own failed policies (maybe) or will pivot when they don’t work and experiment to get a better result. I hope the latter. Who knows? Everything he does is like a half-baked brainstorming session where nobody is allowed to disagree with the boss.
I agree that this failure was that the Democratic party has given strong policy ideas, but not created a compelling story, a narrative of the case. Average voters want to understand the story. All Trump does is share (false) stories: immigrants are taking (black) jobs and eating your pets, raping women, murdering people, etc. etc. etc. I was on that hellscape that is NextDoor watching old people rant about armed men in masks trying to steal someone’s car. Within two comments it was Kamala’s fault for allowing vicious immigrant thugs into the country. They had no idea who these guys really were. Just some criminals caught on a ring camera. But they love that story about these terrible brown people coming here to destroy our way of life so much that they retrofit it to everything they see.
Back to the gender gap, though, the people I have a hard time forgiving are women who cling to patriarchal borrowed power. I have no patience for that nonsense. We have just established that the majority of American people, in a patriarchal nation, value a rapist more than they respect an articulate, intelligent biracial woman.
I know this is my own childhood trauma growing up in a small extremely conservative Utah town in the ‘90s speaking, but girls need to get educated about their options and work hard to become financially independent so they can make decisions about their lives based on the reality they are living and not gender essentialist dogma.
lws329
Nevada did NOT go for Harris.
But you probably know that by now.