When I was attending the Church’s 12-Step program for the wives of porn addicts, we frequently reminded each other that “God has no grandchildren.” What that meant was that we could not repent on someone else’s behalf; our faith could not save anyone else; we could not be righteous enough to make someone else repent. It was a way of learning boundaries, since most of us had been trying to rescue our loved ones to the point where we caused a lot of chaos in relationships.
God has no grandchildren. Parents cannot save their children by being more righteous. Your spiritual experiences can’t be transferred to someone, no matter how much you love them and how much you believe that you know what is best for them. Back off, and let the people you love have their own spiritual experiences and develop their own relationship with God.
The principle here is that your revelations are personal. Your spiritual experiences are not universal. I’ve concluded that this applies to people who think they’re prophets too. President Nelson gets revelation for himself. I don’t accept that his spiritual experiences have any relevance to my life. Other people, who have a testimony that he is a prophet, believe President Nelson’s spiritual experiences have great relevance to their lives. That’s fine. Their testimony isn’t relevant to my life.
Do you see the boundary? Religious belief should be voluntary. Always. Ideally, there shouldn’t be any fear-mongering about what God will do to you if you don’t believe. There shouldn’t be any pressure to believe what your parents believe, because you’ll break their heart if you leave the church. There shouldn’t be any pressure to live your life according to what someone said thousands of years ago. Unless you want to, of course. The only genuine spiritual experiences are the ones you’ve had yourselves.
Would this idea destroy organized religion? Maybe not entirely. It would certainly weaken the most authoritarian and fear-based religions, like Mormonism and Evangelicalism. More decentralized faith and philosophy structures might not be affected too much.
The LDS Church pays lip service to everyone gaining a testimony for themselves, but it quickly falls into guilt trips and manipulation if you don’t have the right experience when you pray to know the truth. I served a mission, and I regret my narrow-minded thinking about my religious beliefs, and the ways I judged and even manipulated people. I was sincere. That doesn’t erase the harm I’m sure I did. I did some good too, but there are some other things I wish I could undo. It wasn’t my business to strong-arm people into accepting my religious beliefs.
The problem with religion is when others insist that you accept their religious beliefs for your own life. Religious believers need better boundaries. No, I don’t need to believe what you believe. No, I don’t care if you have a sincere religious belief that I need to believe what you believe. No, I don’t care that the existence of people who disagree with you makes you uncomfortable. No, I don’t care if you believe that God’s wrath at the wicked will hurt the righteous too.
I posit that every religious atrocity throughout history is caused, not by the religious belief itself, but by the need to spread religious belief. Forced conversions, wars based on differences in religious beliefs, using religious beliefs as a form of emotional abuse and so forth. Most every evil done in the name of religion is done to force others to believe.
The only way spiritual experiences and a connection to God can avoid causing harm is to keep them personal. Share your experiences if someone wants to listen, but do it without manipulation and always give the person an out.
Questions:
- Did your parents pressure you to accept their religious beliefs?
- Have you parented your children differently in regard to religious beliefs, when compared to how you were raised?
- Have you ever received a revelation for someone else? How did that go?
- Do you believe prophets receive MORE revelation than other people? Is it different for modern-day prophets?
Wheat & Tares 
Great post and thoughtful questions. Thanks you, Janey.
I really loved this:
“Your spiritual experiences can’t be transferred to someone, no matter how much you love them and how much you believe that you know what is best for them. Back off, and let the people you love have their own spiritual experiences and develop their own relationship with God.”
Please allow family members to develop their paths or voices. Parents and grandparents need to handle their fears and concerns. We are not meant to be clones of each other. If asked a deep, searching question,it is a signal that they were preparing to receive their own answer. Respond with loving silence or if asked directly, refrain from giving pat answers. Those who do so essentially teach that the questioner has no access to the Divine or does not know their own mind. Just ask them what they think. Allow them to search for their own answers.
“Most every evil done in the name of religion is done to force others to believe”. Great statement – suitable for hanging in every Mormon meetinghouse.
Mormonism conflates success with the ability to force feed testimonies upon children, grandchildren, neighbors, and every living being. Hence D.O. McKay’s infamous quote: “No other success can compensate for failure in the home”. I have little patience for the uber members who insist upon telling me how their entire family gathers in a Celestial Room on a monthly basis – knowing that I have children who are inactive. The fact that my children are good people and successful matters little in the context of what constitutes a successful Mormon family (i.e., every child firmly ensconced upon the covenant path).
Left unsaid are the stories of manipulation, monetary promises, etc., that are used to force family members to remain outwardly active. One can only hope that over time, such tactics are unstainable.
Great post Janey. I feel this. I have great parents who love the gospel. They want more than anything in the world for their kids and grandkids to love the gospel, believe like they do, and stay faithful. Unfortunately, their desire to have all their children believe and stay faithful trumps their desire to listen and respond when people have changing beliefs. My beliefs have changed, and I’ve tried to share my changing beliefs with them, but I honestly believe that they don’t want to hear it. They are not interested in what I believe, they just want to hear their beliefs come out of my mouth. When I have shared my changing beliefs they have re-phrased them into their beliefs, “Oh, you mean to say….” Or they have stayed silent or changed the subject. When I’ve been direct in sharing my beliefs and pressed them for a response, they’ve said that they’ll have to think about it and get back to me… but they never have. So I have just accepted that it’s too hard for them to accept. I let them know if they are interested in hearing my beliefs that they can ask me, but I’ve stopped trying to share my beliefs with them unprompted. In our last conversation my mom told me that she thinks I could become a general authority one day. I just told her not to hold her breath.
I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about the gospel, and I share those with my kids. I’m sure I’m not doing it right, and I’m messing them up in my own way. But I always tell them, “You don’t have to believe what I believe. I might not have it right. I’m interested in hearing what you think and believe. What do you think about this?” And I try to just accept whatever they tell me. “Oh, I can tell you’ve thought a lot about this. That’s an interesting thought. I like that you are seeking answers on your own.”
It’s a frightening and sobering thought that every single generation has believed that the generation before them got it wrong. So I’m sure my kids generation will feel that I got it wrong too. But there’s some comfort in knowing their kids with think the same thing.
Great post Janey. I feel this. I have great parents who love the gospel. They want more than anything in the world for their kids and grandkids to love the gospel, believe like they do, and stay faithful. Unfortunately, their desire to have all their children believe and stay faithful trumps their desire to listen and respond when people have changing beliefs. My beliefs have changed, and I’ve tried to share my changing beliefs with them, but I honestly believe that they don’t want to hear it. They are not interested in what I believe, they just want to hear their beliefs come out of my mouth. When I have shared my changing beliefs they have re-phrased them into their beliefs, “Oh, you mean to say….” Or they have stayed silent or changed the subject. When I’ve been direct in sharing my beliefs and pressed them for a response, they’ve said that they’ll have to think about it and get back to me… but they never have. So I have just accepted that it’s too hard for them to accept. I let them know if they are interested in hearing my beliefs that they can ask me, but I’ve stopped trying to share my beliefs with them unprompted. In our last conversation my mom told me that she thinks I could become a general authority one day. I just told her not to hold her breath.
I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about the gospel, and I share those with my kids. I’m sure I’m not doing it right, and I’m messing them up in my own way. But I always tell them, “You don’t have to believe what I believe. I might not have it right. I’m interested in hearing what you think and believe. What do you think about this?” And I try to just accept whatever they tell me. “Oh, I can tell you’ve thought a lot about this. That’s an interesting thought. I like that you are seeking answers on your own.”
It’s a frightening and sobering thought that every single generation has believed that the generation before them got it wrong. So I’m sure my kids generation will feel that I got it wrong too. But there’s some comfort in knowing their kids with think the same thing.
Did my parents pressure me? Omg yes but it took me 40 years to see it and it required me telling them I’m removing my name before they saw it. They apologized which meant the world to me. One of the things I told them was that it’s impossible to baptize an 8 year old without pressure and coercion.
Did I receive revelation for someone else? Yes, all the time as a bishop. As much as I tried to be progressive and consultative, I’m 100% certain I gave crappy advice that negatively impacted people, but only a couple ever called me out.
I tried to raise my kids differently and one of the specific things I did was write a letter to all of my kids and explain in the most general of terms why I was leaving and why each should decide for themselves. 3 of 4 followed. I also accidentally converted one child’s spouse from believing Muslim to atheist.
My wife is ABM and I’m pretty sure is trying to live even more righteously in an effort to save me. Once she said she’d drag me to heaven with her. It kind of drives me crazy but the whole “I can’t repent on someone’s behalf” works in both directions. I can’t make her realize she can’t save me.
1 Did your parents pressure you to accept their religious beliefs? ANSWER Absolutely. My grandparents wanted me to be aRoman Catholic priest while my parents were fine with me doing whatever I wanted (I chose law) for a profession as long as I was a good Catholic and raised their grands in the Mother Church. When I was 15 I had a personal miraculous experience and declared my belief in the BOM & the LDS Church, neither of which I had ever heard of before. I was hated and vilified by my family for leaving the Mother Church so I emancipated myself, moved out, worked for a year in the pineapple fields, went to BYU, went on a mission and have lived my life this far. Because of my experience, I have made it crystal clear to my kids & grands that their decisions on religion are totally between each of them & God. As a church leader, I was fanatical with that attitude & encouraged parents to give their kiddos space and for the kiddos to take advantage of that space & study & ask for themselves. BTW, I didn’t pull a MH (Martin Harris) and ask the kiddos to keep asking until they get the answer mommy & daddy wanted them to get. Yes, I shared my beliefs with my kiddos, but they knew full well how I was treated as a kid and I went overboard to tell them it was ultimately their choice. All 4 of them are still adult TBM’s (funny, until recently, for YEARS I thought that acronym stood for “Temple Baptized Mormons” meaning LDS folks who regularly do (or oversee) proxy baptisms in the temple). So, we should be careful to assume people know our terminology. 😉
2 Have you parented your children differently in regard to religious beliefs, when compared to how you were raised? ANSWER Ah, yea, see #1.3 Have you ever received a revelation for someone else? ANSWER I have received inspiration on how to personally treat or what to specifically say to someone, but NEVER inspiration “for” someone else. How did that go? ANSWER Fine4 Do you believe prophets receive MORE revelation than other people? ANSWER Only in the sense of them receiving more broad based inspiration based upon their level of stewardship. However, it is up to people to determine for themselves if a PS&R speaks for our Heavenly Parents or just for themselves. Their choice.Is it different for modern-day prophets? ANSWER Only in the sense that PS&Rs in the past often also led as temporal leaders while that hasn’t happened in modern times since Governor/PS&R Brigham Young.
Did your parents pressure you? Well, we were at times forced to attend church, and I was drug practically kicking and screaming to be baptized at 8 and 11/12ths, but all that was to get the grandparents off the parents backs. But then sometimes I think the only thing my parents had in common was very bossy controlling mothers.
We didn’t have any reason to pressure our own kids until we moved to Utah, and then the culture shock and hypocrisy of Utah Mormons made our oldest start fighting things like FHE. If she fought going to church or attending seminary, that would have been one thing, but to start having temper tantrums and passive aggressive sabotaging Family night was kind of different. It took us a while to figure out it wasn’t just adolescent brat behavior or that she hated her family. It is tricky when a teen suddenly starts fighting what the family has always done without saying why.
As far as revelation for someone else, I can’t get it for me, why would I ever get it for anybody else?
I think one reason people try to force others to believe what they believe is because they are really afraid they might be wrong, but hey, if you agree, then I must be right. So, they demand that you confirm their thinking by thinking the same thing. People do not get so defensive and demanding that you agree when they are confident they are right. They just aren’t threatened by the possibility of being wrong. It is when they have given too much to one belief they are not sure of that they get afraid and searching for proof they are right. You agreeing with them is proof. You disagreeing is a huge threat because then they have to face the what if about being wrong.
In 1929, Orson Whitney (an apostle I believe) said that parents who make and keep covenants will not only save themselves but likely save their wayward children. I believe this is false doctrine but I certainly understand its appeal to active Mormon parents who have seen their kids distance themselves from the Church.
josh h – see Ensign March 2014 – Bednar (of all people) puts some conditions on the promise made by Elder Whitney
Lots of thoughts here – mingled with thoughts on recent posts.
My mom died in 2016 at age 71 – I have five siblings and we are all carving our own path in a post-Bushman, CES letter world. No messages yet from the great beyond from Mom telling us to hold to the rod. Parents were performance-based and exercised semi-tight Gospel control over us. My dad now is quite older (age 87) and contemplating how it will all end for him. He has told me at least twice “I believe but I don’t know.”
Mental illness affecting my only two children has given me the gift of nuance and also the space to reconstruct my faith. No one in your quorum is gonna go with you to visit your child at a drug treatment center, I’m just sayin…
My parents made us kids feel like it wasn’t even an option to question their religious Mormon beliefs. The slightest perceived opposition was met with repeated passive aggression and the mental gymnastics of apologists. My oldest brother left the church and left it hard after his mission. He suffered from fairly large mental health problems. My parents took it extremely hard, too hard in fact. At one point my mom thought he had a demon that needed to be exorcised from him. I have never mustered up the courage to tell my parents I don’t believe. I don’t think I ever will. I just kind of let things go their own flow without saying anything. My oldest turned 8 a year and a half ago. My wife’s dad did the baptism and my dad did the confirmation. I attended, participated in the confirmation, but didn’t say anything. Two of my nephews had temple marriages last year. I didn’t attend the temple ceremonies and didn’t say anything.
As for my kids, my wife insists on raising them LDS. Every night she has a sort of FHE with them. I don’t attend. I just let her do what she’s going to do. She’s knows I don’t believe but cannot fully accept that.
Overall, I feel like the people around me can’t fully accept that I no longer believe. They don’t want to hear my reasons or reasoning. They just uncomfortably tolerate my lessened activity. If I ever feel that my wife crosses my boundaries my defense is to calmly respond that I’m open to talking in great detail about religion. Knowing her aversion to talking about this with me, she has on several occasions just gone back to a quiet tolerance of my ways in response.
In general I feel that anyone who is open to talking about the church and its problems, with the exception of the apologists and deep thinking members, is kind of on the road out. Mostly, believers just seem set in their ways. They don’t want to have their beliefs challenged and just like hearing things that confirm their beliefs on steady repeat. They enjoy the comfort of belief and tradition and ritual and don’t want to leave that place. I get that. But once you take the red pill, there is no going back. I just can’t unlearn what I’ve learned.
“No one in your quorum is gonna go with you to visit your child at a drug treatment center,”
This is such a sad but accurate commentary on modern Mormonism. My best to you and your family. I wish our community was deeper, less judgmental, more understanding and more supportive when it really matters.
I didn’t feel pressure from parents to conform because I’m a natural people pleaser and rule follower. Mormonism made sense to me and I didn’t really question it. My own kids have been more inclined than I ever was to complain about church. As a parent I’ve put the emphasis on church being about community participation and service above belief and obedience. I’ve taken my kids to church on Sundays but given them a lot of leeway to opt out of other activities, which they mostly have. They are entering young adulthood now and I have no idea it will all turn out, but I hope they understand that I will respect their choices, and I hope they will have been able to see and appreciate the value of participation in a religious community.
On revelation, I wouldn’t ever presume to receive it for someone else, so no I haven’t. I don’t think prophets receive more revelation than anyone else. I think prophets in the Old Testament were likely not recognized as such until after the fact. In the present day the church has applied the title “prophet” to certain administrative offices, which creates a bit of a novel understanding of the word that I don’t think matches historical usage. Yes, they seek divine inspiration in the course of carrying out their duties, but I don’t think it’s any different than people on your average ward council doing the same thing.
I think there is always inherent tension between personal and institutional revelation. Institutions worry about people at the fringes claiming divine sanction to do things they shouldn’t. Individuals sometimes feel overly constrained by institutions, or often justifiably feel that institutions don’t appreciate their particular circumstances. I think people should feel empowered to seek their own personal revelation, but should understand that personal means personal. The generalization of the personal is a real temptation.
1)No, my mother didn’t pressure me to accept her religious beliefs. However, going to church was a must in our house. Church to me was more about community and strong values. It kept many young people out of gangs.
2) Raising your children with your religious belief is not wrong, but you should allow them to ask questions and make a choice when they are old enough to do so. My mother always told me to never accept anything blindly and to think. And I was the child in Sunday school that would start a whole debate with evidence to proof my point. The teacher didn’t like that.
3) We all have seek and know God for ourselves. This may differ from how we were raised and that is ok.
4) I would not use the word prophet, but I do believe that someone can receive revelations or visions for others based on their spirit gift.