A few days ago I was in the parking lot of my local beach when a member of my ward walked by and we started talking. He was walking to the beach to surf, and I was in the process of changing into my wetsuit (water temp was a cool 57 deg!) This guy was semi active when I was Bishop 20 years ago, but has since not been to church in over 15 years.
We chatted about the surf, but then he moved closer, and said in a lower voice, “Can I asked you a weird question?” I said go ahead, and he asked “What has the Church said about the current world situation?” I told them they have said nothing, and he was surprised. He told me he was worried about the world, and wondered why the Prophet was not giving counsel about this.
After he left, I wondered what he could be worried about. Maybe this warning in the USA from the FBI that the terror threat is the highest it has been since 9/11. Maybe he was worried about Iran attacking Israel like they did last night, and Israel retaliating with a regional conflict ensuing. Or could it be he is worried about Russia and Ukraine, and Putin using nuclear weapons if it looks like he might lose the war?
All of these are legitimate worries—more so after last night—and I thought it interesting that as a probable non-believer, he was still looking for guidance from the LDS Prophet. I thought later that I could have answered him that yes, the Church had plenty to say last weekend during General Conference about the current world situation. Our leaders lectured in multiple talks that he should be wearing his garments, and that he should be going to the temple (he is endowed).
I find it interesting that the Q15 can come up with revelation regarding the kids of LGBTQ parents (per then Elder Nelson), and then get further revelation that the first revelation was hurtful to families. Yet they cannot receive revelation on the possibility of war breaking out in the middle east. But is this their job? Should they be receiving revelation about world events, and what members should do to protect themselves? Or is this outside their “job description? Joseph Smith predicted the Civil War, so there is some precedent.
Your thoughts?
Wheat & Tares 
12 years ago I asked Steve Veazey if he had a plan from God, for the end times and he said no.
I’m pretty sure the Mormons not only have a plan but they will thrive
Bill,
The ocean water temperature here ranges from 72 to 82. You live in the wrong place.
During the covid, I thought if we had a prophet he could tell the governor of Utah he could do a better job and save lives.
population of Queensland 5.185 million population of Utah 3.38 million.
deaths from covid QLD 1,757 IN UTAH 5719. Utah would have stood out.
I am not saying queensland is lead by God but our government was more effective in preventing covid deaths, and if God told Utah how to do it they could be at least as effective as Qld..
Very obvious whether a prophet is actually communicationg with God when it comes to real quantifiable things. A wise prophet would not go there unless he was certain.
Maybe it’s just my hearing, but in the recent past I’ve heard:
>get vaccinated
>don’t vote by party
>it’s a sin to be racist
>be peacemakers
It’s not enough, not nearly enough. But certainly not nothing.
The Q15 have absolutely no idea what is going on, not to mention what is going to happen in the future. We all kind of know that deep down. Their warnings are so generic and general that of course they are always “correct”.
It could be worse. They could lie to us with specific warnings and dates only to be proven incorrect. We’ll never receive specific counsel but they don’t lie like that. I guess that’s 1/2 good?
The notion that Joseph Smith predicted the Civil War and it’s aftermath in a meaningful way doesn’t hold up to close scrutiny of the text, however the apologists at FAIR try to spin it.
It would be lovely if there was someone who could provide insight into exact time or circumstances of major future events like the outbreak of war or natural disasters, but there isn’t. I think it’s a good thing to try to identify probable outcomes and to prepare appropriately but I am wary of anyone who says they know what the future holds in any exact way. And especially if they say God told them.
I don’t look to religion to predict the future. I look to it to provide insight into the moral questions of our day. How should we as individuals and as a beloved community act to reduce inequality? Poverty? Care for the mentally ill? Right historical injustices and reduce current systemic racism? Provide a safe and nurturing community including for LGBTQ individuals? How to live so as to reduce devasting environmental impact of modernity? Ensure that every individual is able to fulfill their potential? How can we provide end of life care for the elderly whose dementia or other conditions leave them in suffering state? Does such care include euthanasia? And what is our moral obligation to the old to cover the cost of their care? What about children to provide them education and resources? How should we think about culpability of those that come from abusive homes or poverty or with genetic tendencies that commit crimes? How should the natural resources of a place be fairly utilized, given that no person created them and it seems silly that they can somehow claim a right to them more than anyone else? Do we have an obligation to save them for future generations?
That is what I see the “job” of religion being. To provide moral guidance. I don’t fault RMN for not knowing a global pandemic was coming. I fault RMN and the current CoJCoLDS leadership for having provided no meaningful insight into these moral questions and in fact as it relates to women and LGBTQ individuals, for providing anti- moral guidance.
I recall that not so long ago, Iraqi missiles were landing in Israel as an LDS Conference session convened. President Hinckley, when he got to the podium, stated something to the effect that he can’t tell the future but he prays for peace among men. He didn’t dodge the big issue by ignoring it, but he didn’t try to predict the future (something prophets are, to the chagrin of many true believers, not very good at).
Pres. Hinckley had the right approach. Would that current leaders review his methods and approach. Don’t ignore big issues. But don’t play Superman: acknowledge your own limitations and the limitations of your office.
You are making assumptions. The fact that the Brethren have not made public announcements regarding inspiration they have had about certain current events, does not mean that they have not had such inspiration.
(second try)
Side note/question (prompted by Dave B. comment re: Hinckley at conference): Is there a policy in the Handbook that discourages comments in sacrament meeting regarding current events? I’ve noted that rarely if ever are current events mentioned, at least in the wards I’ve attended, such as open sympathy and prayers for our sisters and brothers who were attacked in their synagogue, or other place of worship, or grocery store, or school, etc. Or suffering from flooding, earthquakes, tornadoes. Oh yes, there are generic comments from time to time, but rarely an acknowledgement of something happening right now, something that isn’t on the meeting’s agenda. I’ve wondered why. Ideas?
LHCA: I doubt there is a policy in the Handbook but I’m sure there is a reluctance to say things about current events because it seems every word we use to describe a current event is somehow politicized. Also the current event that a person might mention can also either be politicized or have multiple interpretations that are politicized. The net result is that I think people shy away from saying anything because they don’t want to have to justify what they say or are afraid of what might be said to them afterwards by someone whose views differ. Remember how many members did not like what the Prophet said about masks and vaccines.
The Q15 are just LARPing as “prophets, seers and revelators”. The reality is that they are leading a corporation with a $185 billion hedge fund.
President Nelson didn’t see COVID coming. And no new revelations have been canonized. “Prophets, Seers and Revelators” is a catch phrase thst is meaningless.
From the proclamation on the family:
“Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.”
The breakdown of the family worries me more than wars and rumors of wars–and wars worry me.
Josh, you said, “It could be worse. They could lie to us with specific warnings and dates only to be proven incorrect.”
It is worse. They did lie to us with specific warnings that proven incorrect. They said the harm to the arm was a “Godsend”, and yet it has proven to be neither safe or effective.
Their time is coming. Soon they will all be replaced when Joseph Smith returns to set the church in order. MillennialNorthStar.into
The church should think long and hard about this word: relevance. As the earth heats up, culture wars rage, real wars kill millions, AI becomes increasingly powerful, etc., the message from our prophets is to focus on personal devotion and temple attendance. Perhaps the prophets see their lane as limited to personal spiritual practices aka covenant path, and they will be safe if they stay in their lane. Certainly there is a place for worrying about individual relationships with God. But if that’s all you’ve got, you will become increasingly anachronistic, irrelevant, pointless, insipid, and of no value or interest to the majority of people in the world. We are stuck in the previous century. Or maybe the century before last. Shouldn’t prophets be concerned with the moral implications of all of these developments in the world? Acting as the conscience of the world? Telling us what Jesus would think and say about these things? One would think he would have more to say than “covenant path.” I suppose they did decide to take a stand on gay marriage, but it turned out to be the wrong side. Please give our poor missionaries something to sell other than answers to 19th century religious questions.
“The breakdown of the family worries me more than wars and rumors of wars–and wars worry me.”
Jack, this is horrific and so f . . . . ed up. Wow.
I too worry about the break down of the family. Food insecurity, unaffordable health care, corporate wealthfare, and outrageously expensive child care have all contributed to stress on families. All the while, thousands of families are being bombed and will die in the forthcoming famine. But since Jesus is coming in my lifetime, none of these things require any attention or prophecy. What really matters is the number of new temples being built and when I wear my garments.
When I think of the greatest, most righteous members of the Church I know (NOT the self-righteous ones) and all the qualities and behavior they exhibit, I really do think most or all economic, social, and political problems would slowly but steadily disappear if others did the same. Many of these people credit this change of being to following prophets, scriptures, the example of the Savior, the Holy Ghost, and a constant desire for learning. It does go deeper than behavior though.
Don’t you also think part of it is the Church is both playing the long game and caring for the members it already has? Permabloggers here have repeatedly called the Church out for not speaking against Putin, a man who would have no problem stomping out what little presence the Church has in Russia if he felt the Church was a threat or even just a petty nuisance. I have no doubt the same would be true of China and other areas of the world. Individuals matter too. The Church is also patient overall. It will eventually pay off.
And they are informed. They invite experts to Salt Lake City on a weekly basis on any number of subjects. I have no doubt they’re some of the most informed seniors around. What do they plan on doing with that information?
Do we really need them to go into a ton of specifics? It’s nice from time to time, but none of the rest of the world really wants or cares to hear it, with many even lying in wait to ridicule it, no matter how wise the words. And for a people who have the Holy Ghost, I’m sure leaders “would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets” and “not be commanded in all things.” It’s probably going to be one of the regular members of the church currently overrepresented in congress who has the stroke of genius and inspiration to promote life-changing legislation or policy (or the repeal thereof), a regular member overrepresented in science who makes a Nobel prize-worthy addition to established theory and life-changing application, or a regular member from Silicon slopes that manages to sew figurative moral fiber into so much of our technology. It’s regular members who will change the world, not our leaders.
Let them announce temples. I’ve experienced the profound in them. I’m better for them. I’m closer to the Savior. One doesn’t necessarily need a temple for these things, but I’ll embrace anything that eases and quickens the process. Let them create missions so more can experience that. Let them oversee welfare and humanitarian programs that seek for sustainability and avoid corruption from the outside. I’m fine having prophets that largely take an administrative role while giving spiritual advice that’s best suited for the new convert or child, though I’ll try to remain teachable. It’s regular members who have gotten intimately familiar with the Holy Ghost that will understand what’s going on in the world around them and seek for change.
Eli:
“I’m sure leaders “would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets” and “not be commanded in all things.”
No, I do not think that most of the church’s leaders would prefer that people prophesied and received revelation on their own. See Elder Renlund’s talk on heavenly mother for one example. For another example, see the other thread on garments, where Elisa showed that the line encouraging members to seek the guidance of the spirit was removed. I think most actually prefer to command in all things.
If they do care about members actively engaging in the world’s problems, why not at least encourage this, even if only in general terms, in some conference talks? No need to call out Vladimir Putin specifically (except maybe for those people who think that gay people getting married is a worse evil than the thousands of lives Putin has destroyed). Maybe share some inspiring examples of how someone has made a real world contribution, or some guidance for how to think about our roles as members of communities and nations, or how to think about moral implications of artificial intelligence, or ways we can get involved in various charitable efforts? It’s possible I missed some talks that focused on these things, I only listened to about half of conference. But essentially all I heard was covenant path and individual devotion. If they don’t talk about it, it really sounds like they don’t care about it.
Your food allergy writes “No, I do not think that most of the church’s leaders would prefer that people prophesied and received revelation on their own.”
Sorry, I guess it was obvious in my mind that it’s one thing to receive revelations and prophecies that are meant for you, and another to share them with people outside your stewardship. The latter obviously makes leaders very unhappy.
Have you attended an adult session of stake conference recently? My work schedule prevents me from attending them regularly, but that’s where I’ve gotten some of the most practical advice, especially when leaders are visiting. It makes sense, as there’s more of a “boots on the ground” kind of vibe. I think I’ve heard examples of most of your questions with very satisfactory answers. Revelation often occurs there as well. I’m satisfied. I’m sorry you aren’t.
Funny you mention AI. I went to a funeral today and talked at length with a son of the deceased, who works in Software for the Church. The Church is actually working really hard to get ahead of a lot of it, and has some very interesting plans ahead. I’m excited. I’m guessing it will be one of the most AI savvy denominations in just a few years.
@Eli: “Elder AI, a Cyber Seventy, will now address us.” With no corny jokes, no grandchildren stories, and no tales of hiking in the Sierras or kayaking in the islands (that is, no strained analogies), Elder AI’s fact-based, focused talk would probably be a big improvement.
LOL, nice.