That statement made me reflect.
One thing I learned from studying German is that it wasn’t “I was only following orders” it was “but I was following orders”. Following orders was a virtue to the speakers, not an excuse.
They had not learned that blind obedience is not always a virtue.
It is easy to read Brigham Young teaching that blind obedience and blind faith would lead a people straight to hell. Then it is easy to ignore what he said on that topic.
But I got to thinking of so many times, from before Nuremberg to the present where the only justification people had was that they were following a leader or being obedient.
Made me think.
Wheat & Tares 
A scout is… obedient and loyal.
I have come to the conclusion that what is convenient for leaders and parents to teach children is having very negative affects for society as they become adults.
People tend to loyally believe what they are told without challenging it. They don’t take the trouble to consider that they are being told what someone else wants them to believe, in support of that person’s agenda.
We have indeed been taught loyalty and obedience are virtues. I don’t believe that anymore. I really think the only safety is in thinking for yourself and acting on your own personal authority. Muster up a little doubt and scepticism. That’s how scientists find truth. They test their hypothesis. When it turns out the hypothesis fails the test, they don’t insist on blindly believing it more.
I am not being rebellious, only practical. In a world where the person telling you what to do could be someone like Hitler, why would it be right to turn over your personal judgement and call it a virtue.
Maybe it is in the army. I am not a soldier and I don’t want to be one.
I’m convinced that it is faith in Christ that saves, not obedience. What some people call faith may be wrong, empty, feigned, or hollow. Sincere and real faith produces fruit which comes in two (or more) varieties: good works and obedience to commandments. One with real faith will do good works from love for Christ, not because one seeks to score points, and one with real faith will seek to understand the commandments in order to live them better. People who put obedience first are called out in the Sermon on the Mount: they do alms, pray, and fast to be seen of men, they say Lord, Lord, and they do many wonderful works, but they don’t fare well in the end. Contrast with: “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” Belief, or faith, is the key, and obedience naturally flows from it.
I agree that obedience is not a virtue, especially as a stand-alone principle.
Just to be contrarian, consider the possibility that some people have little interest in thinking for themselves, not because they were taught blind obedience but because thinking for themselves is just too hard. Then the question is, whom will they obey? When the default seems to be Donald Trump, offering Russell Nelson as an alternative is at least worth a shot.
Every time we preach obedience as a stand-alone virtue, we undermine the principle itself. If obedience is just about following orders, complying with the powers that be, then it becomes entirely disconnected from what it’s intended to achieve. H L Mencken articulates well what I think a loving God is attempting to achieve; “Morality is doing what’s right regardless of what you are told. Obedience is doing what you are told regardless of what is right”.
Nothing really happens until the second mile, where we act beyond obligation and legality, where goodness flows from Grace instead of a way to get it. Obedience is like training wheels on a bike, it’s only the first step to kingdom. Spiritual maturity must transcend compliance or it will become justification for withholding the needed care to those who deserve it. Kingdom is creative, not consuming. Kingdom is sharing God’s glory, not seeking it.
To expand on your quote, “Obedience isn’t a virtue.” I would rephrase it thusly. Obedience isn’t a virtue. It is a behavior. Even the devil’s followers are obedient.
Obedience as a justification for doing something is a pretty shaky reason. Do we obey because of the letter of the law or do we obey or not obey because of the spirit of the law? Do we obey because a prophet said something but what happens when what was said is later determined to be a man’s opinion? For instance, the whole history and discussion the church has had with blacks holding the priesthood. Finally, where does repentance come in? Do we repent from obeying or not obeying and what do we repent of? I just read in the Salt Lake Tribune “Mormon Land” by Christophe G. Giraud-Carrier, a general authority seventy, about how “Racism” will be considered part of the Temple Recommend in the question of ‘Do you support or promote any teachings, practices or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?’ Again with the history of this topic, many conflicting statements could justify obedience one way or another. Ultimately we have to choose for ourselves and accept the consequences of that choice. I think in many cases saying we are obedient is just a copout.
Your post topic reminded me of what I wrote in response to the horrible policy of exclusion in 2015, a post called Loyalty is a Tricky Virtue: https://wheatandtares.org/2015/11/10/pull-your-heads-out-nutters/
From the post: “Loyalty is a tricky virtue. Sometimes it requires bravery, and sometimes cowardice. But don’t be deceived, it’s not loyal to support someone in doing what is wrong. It’s not loyal to bolster wrong thinking or self-deception.” I also quoted a line from Jane Austen’s Emma. Mr. Knightly has corrected Emma’s cruel treatment of the socially inferior Mrs. Bates, which has made Emma upset at being criticized. To soften the blow, Mr. Knightly explains: “It is not pleasant for me to say these things, but I must tell you the truth while I still can, proving myself your friend by the most faithful counsel, trusting that sometime you will do my faith in you greater justice that you do it now.”
I’ll simply copy paste one of my own comments from that discussion which is still relevant: “I think the tough thing is that ALL faith is partly blind by nature. Perhaps it’s just where you draw the line. How much lack of seeing is faith, and how much is simply kissing the ring? Jesus said that when you do things for the praise of men (the approval of authority is the praise of men), you have your reward. That kind of loyalty and faith and blind obedience is often born of cowardice (fear of standing alone, fear of disapproval, fear of taking personal responsibility, fear of going to hell, fear of being different), not bravery. It’s self-serving, a survival tactic.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Having said all that back in 2015, the policy of exclusion was reversed, but the Church hasn’t exactly gotten its sh*t together on LGBTQ issues. Au contraire. It’s been one step forward, two steps back, and a strong steer into authoritarianism (that was already trending with current leadership). So, it’s kind of like Emma continued to give Mrs. Bates gifts of eggs and pork, but also smeared her to everyone in Highbury, barred her from town assemblies, and tore down her outhouse.
Instereo – not sure if your comment was pointed at my use of the word justification or not. I’ll wait to reply until you confirm.
I 100% agree with your comment above, however. I think obedience has been hijacked by religion and repackaged for institutional control. Obedience is a normative part of human development, but as a parent, I would never suppose my child’s compliance to my commands be the end goal. As young children, we lack knowledge and wisdom, we are experiencing everything in the world for the first time, hence the need to welcome and seek guidance. My hope as a parent and what makes sense for a loving God, is to develop internal authority, to create the capacity given life situations, how to make discerning choices independent of validation. I would suggest that obedience, even religiously, if we studied the ancient word in translation, we would learn that it’s much more like God saying, you’re not alone, you don’t have to start from scratch, wisdoms past is always available to you. Rumi says, “Whoever travels without a guide, needs two hundred years for a two-day journey.” That’s a completely different conception than ceding my agency to a dominant authority figure. Claiming blind obedience as a virtue clears the path to the almost imperceptible abuse of power. It makes way for the “Don’t ask, just do” mentality. This is the many subtle messages that echo the toxic statement from the 1945 improvement era, “When our leaders speak, the thinking is done”.
Obedience has nothing to do with securing God’s favor, or illustration our worthiness (big eye roll), or somehow getting God to hear my desperate pleas. Obedience, for me, is another point of connection to the body of Christ, where we agree to share the weight of life’s journey, seeking and offering help from all the body’s essential parts, and God’s insistence that salvation is a community affair.
Even in the US military (as opposed to maybe WWII Germany or today’s Russia) the soldiers and officers are taught that you obey orders unless it is an illegal order. Illegal orders would be any that violate the Geneva convention or common morality. Shooting down civilians, torture, poisonous gas, killing those who surrender or prisoners of war, all those are considered war crimes. So, US soldiers who commit war crimes will be tried, and if “following orders,” so will the person who gave the orders.
If the US military operates with a system that puts morality above “orders” or commandments, then exactly how can anyone believe in a God who puts obedience as “the first law of Heaven”? This is why I hate the story of Abraham almost killing Isaac. If Abraham was a US Marine, and went through with it, he would have been court marshaled and hung. Nephi, hung for murder of Laban. So, just how can we call these people “prophets of God”? Only if God is an immoral jerk….but then the God portrayed in most of the Old Testament is an immoral jerk.
But instead of worshipping what looks like an immoral jerk, and calling him God, maybe we should teach that this Old Testament idea of God was a very primitive concept of God, a pre-Jesus concept of God. Maybe now that we have ideas that it is immoral, even in war, to kill every man, married woman, and male child, and keep the virgins as brides, just maybe now we should teach about a God who is at least as moral as the Geneva Convention. Maybe we should have the guts to admit than Nephi committed Murder, and was NOT a perfect prophet. Maybe we should teach that Abraham should have stood up to the angel telling him to sacrifice his son, and told that angel, “you do not represent the God I worship.” Maybe there would be fewer Lafferty brothers if we taught that God des not Ryder his children to kill each other, ever. That is not loving and not what Jesus would do.
Maybe we should teach more Jesus, and less prophet. Maybe we should teach that obedience is great for children, but when we grow up we should start acting like grown ups. Maybe we should stop teaching “situational morality” like led Nephi to kill a drunk who couldn’t defend himself. Maybe we should teach more kindness and less obedience. Maybe we should never teach that the first commandment can overrule the second and we should persecute our gay brother. Maybe we should put a gag in the mouth of guys who preach God’s love is conditional, and teach about sad Heaven. I happen to believe in a God who is more loving than that
Think about obedience in the context of the BYU “Honor Code”. BYU students aren’t asked to be honorable by choosing to comply with the provisions of the code. They are compelled to do so at the threat of suspension or expulsion. At BYU, it’s all about obedience, not honor.
LDS teachings clearly state that obedience TO law (or eternal principles) eventually brings the blessings of heaven. Unfortunately, some have tried to wave away the murky vicissitudes by making obedience to a leader or every church dictate the object of our obedience. This gross oversimplification sets the church or a church leader up as the object of our loyalty. This is a weird form of idolatry to set the organization mandated to point to eternal principles as the principles themselves! It is a little bit like confusing the scaffolding for the actual architecture.
I would add that such confusion is no benefit to the esteemed church or individual, even with continuing revelation factored in. People and institutions will always prove imperfect in this life. There is a real challenge in dealing with church and personal imperfections that need to be corrected or brought into alignment with eternal truths over time. I hope we all have the patience for this evolutionary process.
A few years ago I visited the Mountain Meadow Massacre site and saw the result of blind obedience. Men, women and children were executed. There was an apostle in southern Utah in contact with the stake president who was on site. During my visit, I decided “obedience” can be an evil concept.
@toddsmithson. I liked your point about morality and doing what’s right versus obedience regardless of what is right, which is why I went into justification. It’s pretty hard to justify obedience if it’s wrong.