Something in hawkgrrrl’s post yesterday bothered me. Here it is: “Based on Cragun’s data, that’s the group [the “Nones”] that is really gaining ground. It’s a national trend, but particularly true for those who leave the Mormon church, most of whom do not convert to other faiths, instead leaving religion altogether.” Let’s talk about it.
Think of the Church as a very big room, maybe the Conference Center, with a variety of exits. There’s a door marked “Catholic,” there’s a door marked “Lutheran,” there’s a door marked “my local Evangelical mega-church,” there’s a door marked “None, nada, nothing, it’s just a big empty Universe, no God, no Force.” And then there are the specifically Mormon doors, one marked “Anti, and proud of it” one marked “formally but quietly disaffiliated,” another marked “quietly went inactive,” one marked “PIMO” (you don’t really go through that door, you just look at it wistfully), one marked “they exed me” (that’s the door you get pushed through, whether you want to or not). There’s even one labeled “generic Ex-Mormon, I don’t know what the hell I am now, but it’s sure easier to shop on Sunday than on Saturday.” Now and then a person or family from the large crowd goes through one of those doors. On the other side of the building, there are entrance doors with a variety of labels as well. Overall, the large crowd seems to be thinning a bit maybe.
So the quote suggests that most Mormons who leave through one of the doors tend to leave through the “Nones” door, or maybe the “I don’t know what I am but it’s nice to shop on Sunday” door. Why is that? I’m sure most exiting Mormons would be welcomed, even celebrated, as new attenders at another Christian congregation. Question: If you went through the None door, what made you exit not just the LDS Church but religion entirely? My sense is that if most exiting Mormons just give up on Christianity or religion completely, that is a failure of some sort by the Church, but I haven’t really thought it through enough to pinpoint what that failure would be.
Then there are those who go through a door to another denomination or faith. That gets interesting. How do you choose a successor church? Did a Lutheran missionary knock on your door? Did a Catholic neighbor ask you, “What do you know about Catholicism, and would you like to know more?” Did you see a commercial or web ad? Did you shop around and visit a few local churches to pick a winner? So next question: If you went through a door to another church, which did you choose and why? How is your experience there? Are they happy to have a former Mormon in the congregation, or are they a still a little suspicious of you?
Then there are the uniquely Mormon doors. There are Ex-Catholics in the sense of former Catholics or entirely inactive Catholics, but I doubt there are many who self-identify that way, who shake hands with someone at a meet-up and say, “Hi, I’m George, I’m an Ex-Catholic.” The sense of Mormon identity is so strong, it lingers a long while. If your exit is traumatic or you are a do-gooder who needs to save those Mormons from false belief, as you have saved yourself, maybe you go through the Anti door (which you probably have a different label for). But the choice for most who don’t have a specific plan (as in “I want to be a Lutheran”) is between the “formally disaffiliate” (in Mormonspeak, that’s name removal) or “quietly go inactive” (like millions of others have done, choosing to live with the annoying fact that the Church will count you as a member until you reach the age of 110). Next question: If that was your choice, how did you choose between formally disaffiliating versus just quietly going inactive?
Now let’s talk for a paragraph about the Nones. That’s a catch-all category that emerged from polling statistics — it’s not a well-defined sociological or religious category. It is not equivalent to “atheist” or “atheist or agnostic.” You can’t ask someone, “So explain to me why you are a None?” because no one really self-identifies as a None. There are a variety of perspectives, some well considered and some merely reflexive, that drop out of polling results into the “None” category. It’s a mistake (albeit one that a lot of media and online discussions adopt) to think of Nones as a well-defined category. “None of the above” is not a philosophy of life or a perspective on the meaning of Life and the Universe. Anyone who thinks they are a None just hasn’t thought very seriously about the issue.
Now let’s talk for a paragraph or two about atheism, a sub-category of Nones (that is, I imagine a full-blooded atheist who responds to a poll checks “None of the above” if there isn’t a separate “atheist” category). I think some or many Ex-Mormons who exit the Church and who don’t join up to some degree with another church might think of themselves as atheist but haven’t really thought it through. If they have, they probably point to that old college physics book and college biology book on their bookshelf, particularly the chapters on evolution, and say, “Science, Big Bang, evolution, we’re just rational human animals, and that’s that. What’s on TV tonight?” Let me push back on that a bit, suggesting that if you leave the Church, you shouldn’t just wash your hands of religion and thereafter dismiss ultimate questions about Life and the Universe.
The problem with the “Science, Big Bang, etc.” response is that, well, here we are — rational, reflective, moral (to some degree) beings. We think not just in terms of our next meal and having a roof over our heads, but also of the well-being of family members and friends. We make sacrifices for them, sometimes substantial, some that clearly don’t emerge from a rational self-interest calculation that your economist friend endorses or even the kin selection story your biologist friend endorses. We think in terms of the ideal, not just the practical. We don’t just tend our gardens and pay the bills, we write poetry, do art, write novels, watch movies. We are aware of our impending death (in a year, a decade, or a century, just the blink of an eye in the cosmic timescale) and wonder about the meaning of life. All of that is an awful lot to ask of a Universe that flashed into existence 14.7 billion years ago, spewing energy and particles outward in a burst that is still expanding. If our galaxy and our Universe were nothing more than a tremendous array of dust clouds and stars, some shining and some dead, it would be a lot easier to point to those textbooks and say, “Science, it’s all science.” Of course, in that scenario there wouldn’t be textbooks and there wouldn’t be you. There would be nothing to explain because there would be no minds capable of even asking the questions.
Now it is too glib to simply point to humans and human life, and say “watches, there must be a Watchmaker, that’s God, voila.” The Universe is capable of generating a great deal of complexity through natural processes. It is truly amazing the extent to which modern science has theorized and documented those processes, with new wrinkles and even entirely new fields being discovered all the time. It’s just that, subjectively, I can’t quite connect the many dots between primordial blast of energy and particles 14.7 billion years ago and me (along with billions of other human minds).
It’s like if you take a coin out of your pocket and flip it onto your hardwood floor. It can be heads or tails or, maybe once in a million times, it can end up on its edge. So if you flip it a million times, maybe you get one edge result. But honestly, if you take a nickel out of your pocket just once, flip it, and it ends up on its edge, you don’t just shrug your shoulders and say, “Huh, it just happens sometimes.” No, it is so vastly improbable you pull out your phone and take a picture. You search Google to see if anyone else has done this. You go out and buy 20 lottery tickets, figuring this just might be your lucky day. Take another example. You pull a deck of cards out of your drawer and shuffle it 10 times. Then you flip it over and find the deck not “sufficiently randomized” (as Data would say) but fully sorted into suits and order by suit. You say something like, “My God, what is going on here?” You don’t say, “meh, it happens.”
That’s not a watchmaker argument for God and devoted membership in the local Christian congregation of your choice. That’s an argument for giving serious consideration to ultimate questions rather than checking the Nones or Atheist box on a questionnaire, as if that is an adequate response to the story of your life. Maybe in a roundabout way that’s an argument for an exiting Mormon who just can’t do the Mormon thing anymore to try another church and see if a different Christian perspective offers a more satisfying set of answers and community. That’s my take on how to be a good Ex-Mormon.
So, last question to consider: What’s your take on how to be a good Ex-Mormon?

Faith is something you either have deep down or you don’t. When you lose it, or realize you really never had it and you were just following your family traditions, it doesn’t make sense to start casting about for different religions in the hope you will find something that you either lost or never had with your birth religion.
How to be a good ex-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saintsian.
Most people I know who have left the church have either switched over to the Community of Christ or have become evangelical born again Christians.
On the one hand, the propensity to define oneself in a binary fashion as in or out, believing or ex-, member or none, feels like a failing of our LDS teaching and community. And I think it’s worth talking about. I think we hurt ourselves and our children when we push hard on truth claims—which strongly suggest binaries—and focus on apostasy arguments and one and only rhetoric. What value there is in religion or a higher power or spirituality writ large gets lost in the melee.
On the other hand, polls that come up with “None” as answers, and—frankly—David’s OP itself, ask us to think in labels and categories that often defy real life experience. Analogous to the increasing use of non-binary with respect to gender and sexuality, I’m quite attracted to None as an answer to a religious affiliation poll because for me it would mean I don’t like any of your labels. And that I, like most thoughtful adults I know, have defined my own religion and my own religious practice, thank you. Maybe (or maybe not ) I can fit my experience within one of your boxes, but really, why bother?
When the “One and Only True Church” turns out to be something less than expected and you choose that door to leave, it’s hard to walk through any other door without feeling it is either “less than” what you are leaving or it’s just another way to get you to give up your money and time.
I’m an ex-Mormon in some senses. Meaning I no longer believe in the major doctrinal teachings. I attend church weekly with my wife. I have made it clear to the bishopric that I won’t accept callings, seek a temple recommend, or attend tithing settlement. I have discussed at length my lack of belief with the bishop.
I have not publicized my non-belief to my parents or parents-in-law. I have told my wife, my wife’s sister, my sister’s husband, and my brother that I no longer believe. It has been hard on my wife, and she has not fully accepted, but she wants a happy strong marriage. My goal has been with her to convince her that the church is a voluntary organization that technically preaches against force and coercion in getting people to join and stay, even though it does not always practice that. The culture, I have found, often uses mechanisms of coercion, shaming, threats of divorce, actual divorce, ostracism, and lots of acts of passive aggression in response to individuals who leave the church. I consider those wrong and against some of the church’s actual teachings. I believe that I have successfully convinced my wife that individuals should have the freedom to announce that they no longer believe and not have severe socially consequences imposed upon them. As for my other family whom I have told, I have identified them as safe people who aren’t going to negatively react to knowledge of my non-belief. On the other hand, I believe that my parents and parents-in-law could not emotionally handle the knowledge that I no longer believe. So I have said nothing. I think that they simply do not want to know. So I have cruised along not really saying anything to them. When my first son turned 8, I simply did not do the baptism. My wife arranged for her father to do the baptism and for my father to do the confirmation. I joined in the circle, but did not give the blessing. This was hard on my wife, but I have maintained my position that it is not me putting her in a hard position, but the church structure and the culture surrounding her that is putting her in the difficult position. However, I’m not quite sure that she has accepted that line of reasoning and a part of her may always think that it is I who is at fault.
In sum, I think being a good ex-Mormon requires accepting the fact that you probably won’t convince most of your believing friends and family that the church teachings are not true, or that the church really isn’t what it claims to be. And that trying to persuade them of such might end up backfiring and entrenching them further in hard belief and resentment toward you for not only not believing but actually trying to pull them to your side and judging them for not agreeing with you. My number one goal has been to set my own internal boundaries. Where is it that the organization, friends, or family might push me to activity where I simply do not feel comfortable.
Some things for me.
1) I won’t accept callings. I figure all callings signal you to other members as an active believer and that you’ll be willing to accept other callings and participate in ways that they see as normal and expected for the average believer.
2) I won’t speak about the church with other believers unless they take the initiative to do so and show themselves to be accepting of my non-belief. The fact of the matter is that I have profound disagreements with believers on the topic of Mormonism, so much so that there is very little overlap between us and sustained conversations about religion could lead to defensiveness and judgment and ultimately a strained relationship. Few people are emotionally prepared to have sustained disagreement about highly sensitive topics without getting emotional. I assume most people cannot emotionally handle long disagreements that challenge core beliefs that inform their identity. We can disagree about what food we like, sure. My identity is not wrapped up in that. Religion is a completely different question.
3) I hold a few easy core principles about the church and I keep it simple. I believe in religious freedom, which means freedom from religion. I believe that religions should have the right to try to persuade others to believe and invite others to participate, but that people have a right to leave the religion and discontinue belief in it without shame or blame from the community. If I must speak of religion, it is this principle that I will highlight first and foremost to believer, and have had to repeatedly with my believing spouse.
4) Religiosity should be because of an individual’s actual belief, not because of a pressure system around them. I shouldn’t have to go through the motions simply because people around me expect me to do so. I most certainly shouldn’t claim to believe or appear to be believing if I am really not. That makes zero sense. And yet the Mormon leadership and culture routinely puts people in these sorts of positions and shames them for not believing as if they are affecting others in not doing. “What about your kids, spouse, family, etc.?” they repeatedly ask. It makes no sense to fake religiosity and feign belief simply because you worry about offending family and others. One should only be religious because they actually believe the doctrines. If they do not believe, they should not be religious. Therefore I refuse to fake it just to please others.
5) I need a cause to believe. I hold that belief cannot come out of thin air. Believers claim to believe because of some line of reasoning, or because they had some extraordinary feeling. Their minds response to the reasoning or the feeling caused them to believe. I maintain that nothing has caused me to believe. The feelings I once thought were evidence of the church’s teachings I have found to be not the case. As I have reasoned with the church’s teachings, I have found them to be not so true. So “why should I believe?” is an important question to me. I am happy to reason at length with people on this question, although no believers have taken me up on the challenge yet. But I will not be forced or coerced into belief.
I feel like your post is a wee bit judgemental of those who have exited the none door. Perhaps I misunderstand you, but that’s my take. Why does none mean no God? Why can’t none mean you don’t want to be formally (or casually) associated with any organized religion? Perhaps you don’t believe in God anymore, or you don’t know what to believe at this point, or you do believe but choose to have that be a personal thing. Life is a journey and for many leaving, they have a ton of trauma to process.
If you went through the None door, what made you exit not just the LDS Church but religion entirely? I went through this door. There are probably as many reasons out there as there are people, but for me leaving was mainly about trust. I have none in the Mormon religion. I’m pretty literal and was as devout as could be. Having been raised and lived for decades in a faith that proclaims “the only true religion”, the “restoration” and the “only true church” to find out that pretty much every point of unique doctrine was a lie or misrepresentation rocked me to my core. I can’t trust anything the church says because they’ve hidden facts, misrepresented facts, lied about facts, and manufactured “facts”. They have claimed to lead directly under Christ, but IMO they lead by men, many of whom clearly don’t like women. I don’t know what to believe these days, but I’m letting my subconscious self work on that – I’m processing. Other faiths have truths and shortcomings as well, but Mormonism burns you out by demanding so much from you that I have no desire to go anywhere else. I’ve reclaimed my life and it’s fabulous at this time.
If that was your choice, how did you choose between formally disaffiliating versus just quietly going inactive? I formally resigned by choice for 2 reasons: despite the posts that say the church is not a cult, it is darn-near cult-like and I don’t want to be associated with that and (2) I don’t want to add to their membership stats. I have a brother who resigned to get the missionaries to stop knocking on his door. Sadly for unexplained reasons, they’re knocking more often than ever. It’s not endearing him to rejoin!
What’s your take on how to be a good Ex-Mormon? All I desire is to be a good person and that’s all that is needed. I don’t label myself as “ex-mormon”.
I’ve never really agreed with the premise that you “choose to believe”. In my view, either you do or you don’t and it’s not really a choice. Yes, you can choose to be active in the Church and engage in certain activities but that’s different than belief. Also, you can always exercise faith by taking certain actions (read the scriptures, attend the temple, pray). But that doesn’t automatically translate into belief.
So how to be a good x-Mormon? I try to accept that many of my friends and associates in 2024 are where I was pre-2020. They believe***. I accept that. Hopefully they accept that I don’t believe.
***I’m assuming active members “believe” but I’m not sure that is the case. People are active for different reasons
I think the exceptionalism in Mormonism makes it difficult to identify with another faith. I think something (semi)unique to Mormonism is our faith is positivly defined in a negativist manner contrasted to other faiths. If you’ve been raised your whole life being told that everyone else is wrong, even other Christians, it becomes difficult to flip the script when you leave. Add to that some more modern doctrinal positions contrasted with other faiths (like the spiritual materialism of some D&C passages), and it makes sense why lots of former Mormons would just stick with secularism, atheism, or both. That said, I think younger church goers like myself are increasingly leaving religion altogether, so I’d say the increase of nones is not unique to us. Something interesting you mentioned is that other former religionists don’t seem to define their faith as “anti-;” put another way, they don’t define who they are in opposition to another party, which ironically is a very Mormon approach.
For my own case, I count myself in the minority as someone who is a former Mormon, but who found another church and does not identify as ex-Mormon. I’m now a happy Unitarian Universalist who quietly went inactive, rather than disaffiliating. That’s probably because the Church burning me was not my reason for leaving, and as a cis straight white man, my associated baggage is minimal. There’s a lot of former Mormons in the congregation, as we’re in Utah, and we’re all welcomed to a faith that espouses non-dogmatism and pluralism. I tried being a None for a while, but I found that my heart is thoroughly religious, and there are natural religious doctrines that are compatible with modern secular insights without being tongue in cheek. Process theology has been the most recent instance of this.
As for what makes a good ex-Mormon, I’m of the opinion that any press is good press, and the mental energy dedicated to opposing the Church/defining oneself in opposition to the Church, only increases the power of the Church and keeps former Mormons bound to it. There is no better way to move on then finding a new, positivist identify, rather than defining oneself solely in the past. Again, this coming from someone who has minimal trauma associated with their attendance, so for some that might not be an active option. Just my take.
I wrote a response on a different thread. I’ll add a few things here.
Why aren’t those that leave lining up to join other churches? To quote Sister Mary Clarence from Sister Act, “People like going to the theater, and they like going to the casino. Why don’t they like coming to church? Because it’s boring.”
What’s my take on how to be a good Ex-Mormon?
Like christiankimball noted, most of us are tired of labels. Be whatever type of ex-mormon works for you. In the Good Place, all those “bad” people were there for all sorts of reasons, and by the end of the show, we really loved them all.
I think the reason we see many ex-Mormons leave religion altogether is likely that religion is the underlying issue. Or as some posters above put it in a kind of binary way, belief or non-belief. When one discovers inconsistencies and problems with Mormonism, one’s acceptance of divine authority or of divinity at all can often be the fundamental question. If answered in a way unfavorable to Mormonism, other faiths are likely to similarly fail the test.
My evolving response to Mormonism’s problems and inconsistencies has been to lose belief in the traditional and literal paradigm, and to place the church into a similar category as other churches as culturally conditioned approaches to living a life with some form of faith and containing in their best moments some really wonderful traditions and ideas that I value. I take what I like in a non-literal way, reject the nonsense, and so far continue along with this cafeteria approach. I also have a strong love of the New Testament Jesus and I find that I can use Mormonism as a tool to live my version of Christianity. If that ever becomes untenable, I imagine I will try to find a more fitting Christian home rather than become a “None.”
I grew up with a very religiously diverse friend-group and extended family. I was an active participant and member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, but attending and worshipping with these other people that I loved did not cause me any distress. We were all children of God, God loved us all, we all had a responsibility to be good people. I was curious about the various modes of worship and wanted those I worshipped with to be comfortable and glad that I was with them.
My current lifestyle is to travel whenever possible. I love to worship in many different places and practices. In fact, some of those practices have taught me more about worship than I learned in my mostly-Mormon services. And now, worship is a much more central part of my life, though not in Mormon-recognizable ways. When I’m home I usually attend my local ward because I enjoy being with the people in my neighborhood.
What does all this have to do with the OP? I think what makes a good ex-Mormon is the same thing that makes a good anybody: try to do good, try to have a positive outlook and attitude, appreciate the variety that God created, *stay in your lane,* practice gratitude, share, don’t hurt others, all those things we were taught as 3-year-olds that take a lifetime to learn.
My dearest wish is to become an ex ex Mormon. That not to say that I become a Mormon again, but rather that I simply don’t care any more. I left a year ago yet here I am on Wheat and Tares. Until my wife also leaves, every Sunday I’ll be reminded of this vast difference in (non) belief as she marches off to church.
My self identification as a “none” is because I fear unintentionally rejoining a near-cult (I won’t even join CrossFit because of their zeal). If Aburdist were a door, that’s the exit I’d use. There is no point in life other than to enjoy it as much as possible. To me this means responsibly, minimizing negative impact to others.
My idea of a good ex Mormon is that I’m able to let go and simply be free. Somewhat ironically, ever since concluding that I have maybe 20-30 more good years of existence have I started to live. I visited 4 bucket list places in 2023 and plan on continuing to try new things … and truly living to spite that bastard entropy.
The problem with this is that the prevailing wisdom from the prophets, seers, and revelators is that there is no such thing as a “good ex-Mormon.” Every ex-Mormon is a lazy learner/lax disciple leaving to sin. We’re unruly children throwing temper tantrums; we’re spoiled castaways jumping overboard off the bow of the Good Ship Zion because there isn’t any Perrier. Also, once we leave, our lives automatically go off the rails, and we are incapable of experiencing happiness or joy.
How we treat people who leave is an absolute disgrace.
Thanks Brad D. Reasoned, respectful, defining boundaries.
I didn’t turn to anything. It was enough working through my faith deconstruction.
Later on when I read about secular humanism, it resonated. It also gave me something to point to when people close to me tried to tell me that because I believe in doing good, then actually, I do believe in god. It still comes up occasionally.
A good friend turned to astrology. Doesn’t do anything for me, but more power to them. I put it in the category “harmless”.
Many of the “nones” speaking here and elsewhere seem (to me) to have adopted an atheistic/agnostic existentialist model for their philosophy of life. Please correct me if I am wrong.
For me, it would be difficult to abandon the notion of the “sacred” in my life. I mean, what is sacred to a “none?” Is there a sacred time, a sacred space, sacred speech, or sacred anything? Is there community? Is there sacrifice? What meaning is derived from difficulties or struggles? I understand that some adopt an existentialist model, in that each individual determines what is sacred for him/herself. But that negates the entire concept of community, there is no common culture to root oneself in. There is no meaning outside of the self. I can’t operate from such a paradigm. Because the sacred is real (to me). Most human-produced “good” things come about as a result of commitment to something higher than the self. So I am busy with work that I perceive that I am “called” to perform, in the church and in the community-at-large.
I suppose that one holding an existentialist perspective could attempt to call me out or try to persuade me that my perceptions are illusory, that there is nothing out there to direct me, to covenant with me. The real question is this. Which of us is really just whistling past the graveyard?
I mean this with all due respect Dave, but what the hell are you talking about?
Failure? No, this is the crowning achievement and modus operandi of a lot of LDS church recruitment and socialization tactics. It socializes and inculcates in its members and prospective members that not only is the LDS church right, but it is an effective and systematic refutation of the other churches (at least the other Christian denominations) and so you need not pay them any mind. By this alone it should make entire sense why most exiting Mormons give up on Christianity — this isn’t a failure, this is a feature.
That being said, I don’t want to give the church *that* much credit. I don’t think it’s actually the case that LDS folks have successfully defeated every other Christian denomination. To the contrary, Mormonism also inculcates in its adherents particular definitions about what religion, God, etc., ARE…and that distorts one’s view of everything else. So, while one thinks he has a great refutation to the “amorphous nonsense” of the immaterial Trinity in Mormonism’s physically embodied Godhead, the reality is that Mormons literally do not *understand* what the Trinity actually is or is not, do not *understand* how other religions and denominations “do” religion, and therefore do not know what they are missing out on.
My husband (not a Mormon at all) was watching a show about former cultists (NOT ABOUT MORMONISM, don’t get arms up at me, just making a subversive observation here)…and he remarked that even after leaving, they still *sounded* like they were in the cult. They still used the language of the cult, still had the preoccupations of the cult.
I think that even if we do not go so far as to say Mormonism is a cult (not sure I’m willing to go “that” exmormon here), it at the very least is a culture, with its own language, ways of thinking etc., A monolingual monocultural person will reveal that through her assumptions about the world that a multilingual person would obviously, easily understand to be limited and not globally applicable. And yet, until you *have* that culture shock, you don’t realize that what you thought was obvious and universal is merely provincial.
I think the kinds of exmormons that Mormonism produces are a reflection on Mormonism. The fact that different religions product different types of formerly religious adherents says things about the differences of their religious communities.
My upbringing was part of a religious community that taught me that my sexuality was a curse and a sin, a rebellion against God. The history of my religious community is that it taught in the past (still has inklings of it that continue to this day) that my skin color is the consequences of my ancestors’ rebellion against God (or maybe it was my supposed pre-mortal “neutrality” and fencesitting? the stories are not coherent.)
In other words, the “satisfying set of answers and community” that i was taught to believe is the only right way didn’t have a place for me, other than misery and self-denial and self-recriminations.
So, I hope people will forgive me if I do not find this a particularly satisfying set of answers and communities. I hope people will further forgive me if having this as my first religious language also colors me to think that “religion done right” looks more like this, and that religions that *don’t* do these things are suspect, not quite taking religion seriously, false pretenders, etc,. And so, I take the teachings of my youth, but having rejected them but not quite the framing and provincial language they gave to me, I reject the rest as well.
Old Man: I think that to most “nones,” the “sacred” can be boiled down to relationships, and relationships always include sacrifice and something higher than the self. Sometimes this also extends to service and communal values (e.g. politics to create inclusive uplifting policies and public goods). When believers disclaim the idea that non-believers can hold anything higher than the self, it makes me suspicious of what exactly are the core values that person has, and is religion only influencing them because of fear of spiritual consequences, not actually changing who they are. I can’t know, and I’m not accusing; it’s just something that gives me pause. I like to think that religion can make some people better, more moral, but I’ve seen at least as often that it brings out the worst in people. Perhaps Sam Harris is right that we really don’t have free will. We just explain our natures to ourselves in different ways to explain our behavior.
Back to the OP’s questions, Anna commented over on my post that once she lost trust in the church’s leadership, she didn’t want to put trust in another organization because at core, human institutions (especially churches, so it would seem) are corruptible. Why put your time and talents to work benefitting corrupt enterprises? And Mormons spend a good deal of time convincing ourselves of the corruption of competing religions.
I recently had lunch with some W&T alums. The group ranged from temple worker to an ex-Mo convert to another faith. One thing I learned from my mission is that people only listen to another faith’s pitch when things aren’t going well in their life, and despite what the church says, most ex-Mos are in fact living their best life, enjoying their new-found freedom. I also agree with Josh H that people don’t choose to believe. They may choose to pretend they believe. I don’t agree that belief doesn’t or can’t change, but I do see it as beyond our control.
I guess I’m more of a None now if we’re going to use labels. Here’s a few thoughts:
After leaving the church, I’ve often thought about verses in the Book of Mormon or D&C that repeatedly tell the tale of people who leave the true church, harden their hearts and become primary antagonists to the saints (such as the Amulonites, Amalekites, Zoramites, Kingmen, etc.). Some folks saw me as a modern “Zoramite” after leaving and wondered when I would start attacking their religion. It’s taken some time to relate to others that I’m still the same guy. For many reasons I just wanted out, so desperately, after so many years. I don’t want to go back to the behaviors, norms, rituals and ceremonies that are part of Mormon religion and Christianity in general. Any other Christian church is just another flavor. While I’m happy for those that enjoy organized religion, I just want out.
We’re all human. From my view, being a Christian doesn’t necessarily make a better, loving person. I’ve had many questions about scriptures and Joseph Smith. It didn’t take long to find answers thanks to many people who had the same questions and started looking. My family and I have experienced many disturbing acts over the years with members and leadership including molestation of my oldest daughter during an interview (it’s a long story). Trumpism and its adoption by Christianity was and is very, very disturbing to me. Living in Lauren Boebert’s district has definitely opened my eyes even more.
Am I still a Christian, do I believe in God? I won’t deny what I’d consider divine experiences during my life as a son to good parents, Dad and mission to Brazil. I also believe in critical thinking and finding the truth as much as I can. For now, my best experiences and perhaps religious in nature have been sitting up on the top of a mesa in western Colorado, raising my family, helping the folks at the homeless shelter, and just being nice to people and nature. Overall, I’m finding it pretty good to just be a None.
@ Old Man you’re not (entirely) wrong. Redefining community had been difficult. I haven’t figured the answers to the questions you pose, and there may not be answers. Very smart philosophers have wrestled with these questions for centuries with varying degrees of success. However I’m not willing to trust divine intermediaries any more because they often seem breathtakingly shortsighted.
I’ll say that for me my family is my community and is sacred. My time is sacred. Kindness is my goal. I’m closer to my family now than when I was Christian. Humanity is my broader community and I do my best to be a good steward of the earth and a kind human being. Knowing that this green and blue rock called Earth is our home provides incentive to care for it. My perception is that postponing difficult changes in society for the afterlife is its own perversion of “live now for tomorrow we die” since God will sort it all out instead of us doing the work now.
I’m a proud None of the atheist wing. I didn’t start out that way but some 70 years of the experience of living — much of it as a believer — got me confidently and comfortably to this place.
For me the goal is to use my humanity to be a constructive part of larger humanity transcending gender, race, religion, nationality or any other category that divides us during the time I have on this planet. I have no concept, curiosity or concern about what happens after my mortal life.
I’ve raised 3 very decent people that way. I never experienced any difficulty getting them to recognize that their own wants, needs, feelings and goals are as universal as they are individual and can connect them to others and guide them in how to live among them. The Golden Rule is a more succinct way of putting that and it’s amazingly effective — without employing shame, guilt or coercion. It may have a learning curve but most of us get there before too long.
I find nurturing qualities in my closest relationships, humanity in general, art, nature and in achieving the limited understanding of science that I’m capable of. That feeds my spirit and makes me feel like part of something much larger than myself. So does doing as little harm as I can manage. I understand that some people need to call that “god”. I don’t and ever since I’ve accepted that I’ve been a happier more confident and relaxed person.
Atheism didn’t relieve me of a spelling problem.
What should be “guilt” and “coercion” in the third paragraph in case that wasn’t clear.
Old Man: “For me, it would be difficult to abandon the notion of the “sacred” in my life. I mean, what is sacred to a “none?” Is there a sacred time, a sacred space, sacred speech, or sacred anything?” Yes, yes, yes, and yes. I believe if you can imagine if you try.
“Is there community?” Not only community, but communities. Loads of them. All over.
“Is there sacrifice?” Yep. Why do you ask?
“But that negates the entire concept of community, there is no common culture to root oneself in. ” Not true. As Toad mentions, kindness alone could build a sufficient common culture, for just one example. There are others.
I feel like I’m at T&S here, not W&T.
Andrew’s comment is $$, and alice’s comment is also incredible.
Now I’ve commented three times on the same post so Happy 2024 as I bow out of the convo.
I would answer none on a survey, because I don’t fit any known label. I am not a traditional Christian and I am not Mormon anymore, and I am not atheist or even agnostic. I don’t think I have a category. Maybe something like pantheist Christian pagan agnostic. There is a lot that is sacred, like the pantheist part of me believes that mountains and rivers and rocks all have a sacred something I would have to call a soul. But there are still a lot of Christian ideas I believe, and even some very Mormon ideas that I believe. So, I can’t go all the way pantheist or pagan. I just don’t fit in the boxes and I am fine with that. I don’t want anybody telling me how I *should* believe, so I want to stay out of any predetermined box.
Behaviorally I am still more Mormon than anything else, but I also don’t want anybody telling me that I *should* stop my very Mormonish way of living. So, the exMormons who try to get me to prove my exMormon status by rejecting all the Mormon rules get dumped as friends.
I did carefully think through my beliefs and decided the best and only place I fit religiously is “none”. And I don’t think most “nones” end up there by accident or laziness. I think you can carefully think it through and decide that you are a “none”. That doesn’t mean I have no beliefs or hold nothing sacred, just that I don’t fit into the religious boxes and I am not going to let somebody try to stuff me in a box. It feels to good to finally be free of all the artificial rules and “shoulds” that people forced on my for most of my life.
There is no good way to be an exMormon because the church tells us we just can’t be good and exMormon at the same time. But for an exMormon definition of how to be a good exMormon, that is going to depend on the individual. Some will require at least Christianity or belief in God, others think you are still trapped in the cult unless you are an alcohol drinking, coffee guzzling, copulating like rabbits, atheist. Personally, I think there are some values like kindness, equality, and caring for others and our world that make a person a good person, in or out of Mormonism. So, for me, how to be a good exMormon is the same way you be a good person.
Brad D
I enjoyed the clear boundaries in your post. I am at a different place in my faith journey than you, however I want respond to your comment about the things people say about pretending for family and children.
I see pretending something you do not believe as the deepest form of betrayal. Perhaps I don’t always raise my hand and contradict others I disagree with, but I would never feel it is permissible to lie to someone I am close with about what I feel reality is. That includes my children. Obviously, what a person should tell their children will vary according to their own age and stage of personal development.
I don’t think it’s fair to leave children without and example of how to be an adult with clear boundaries, who thinks for themselves and uses their own personal and spiritual authority to make their decisions. I would never leave my children to be dominated by the beliefs of others and to feel I would not accept them if they chose to take a path in life other than the one I once imagined for them. They are their own people with their own journey ahead of them. I feel it would be abusive to deceive them about my own journey when they are vulnerable to me and depending upon me to tell them what I see as reality.
In my experience, trying to decide or hide reality will backfire in the end anyway. Telling the truth about my journey is part of my basic integrity. I owe nothing less to my family.
The door I went through, was to make my own personal religion. I call it “(myfirstname)ism”. The first belief of my religion is that it’s just for me. The second belief of my religion is that it’s full of wrong ideas, and that’s okay. The third belief is that I just do my best to live true to myself, and love others.
I believe in “God”, and I believe that I have a soul, and that the things that I do in this life have an effect on my soul. I see religions as man’s attempt to understand God and draw close to God, which I think is a good thing.
I see religions/churches as spiritual gyms for the soul. Just because you go to a gym doesn’t mean that you’ll be healthy, and just because you don’t go to a gym doesn’t mean you’ll be unhealthy. But going to a gym can definitely help you to be more healthy.
Mormonism taught me that it was the only valid gym/church, and the only way to be spiritually healthy was by attending their gym/church and following their fitness instructors exactly. I have found that there are a lot of different ways to be spiritually healthy.
Just like there’s not “One true gym” that is the only way to work out and be physically healthy, there’s not one true church that one must follow exactly to be spiritually healthy.
So I designed my own spiritual fitness program. It’s tailored to me and my needs, rather than to the masses. I’m grateful to the Mormon gym/church for teaching me their workout program, it worked well for me for a long time, and I made a lot of friends at their gym/church. I’ve kept a lot of their workouts, but I’ve discovered that lots of other gyms/religions have exercises that are beneficial for me and help my soul to be healthy.
I still like to go work out at the Mormon gym/church (that’s where my family and friends work out) but I’m not so concerned about doing all the exercises exactly as they say- I’m there to work out, but I’m actually doing my own spiritual fitness program.
For me it came down to realizing that all of LDS theology came from human minds. The way LDS scripture became so thoroughly debunked in my study lead me to see that all of religion is a human creation. It wasn’t a stretch to see the Bible or any other religious text as less than historically true, which means that its all just literature. I will not subject myself to anyone claiming to know the mind and will of god because that to me is just being manipulative. The more I think about it the whole Idea of a being in whose image we are created but who can cross the entire expanse of the universe instantly, and whose influence can be felt everywhere just doesn’t make that much sense. It seems for more likely that to me that we are still in our infancy of our understanding of the universe. We have not yet sent a human beyond our own moon, and the expanse is so incredibly enormous that its not really comprehendible. I still appreciate spirituality and find a great deal of meaning in life but have recently discovered philosophers like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins and I see a lot truth and take comfort in their arguments.
Why has the OP made religious belief essential to the social creation and search for meaning?
With all due respect there are a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions baked into the post that all too narrowly defines the possibility range of what a ‘good ex-Mormon’ looks like. An argument needs a framework with theoretical and other commitments of course, but we should be clear what these are and why we building off of them.
If a person finds meaning in spirituality/religion- that’s fine. What matters to me is that people are honest and considerate upon the grounds and extent to which they can realistically make their truth claims- and expect others of the polis to abide by them.
Atheists make up maybe ten percent of Nones. Most have some religious beliefs (whether murky or well-defined), they just don’t belong to an identity group based around that.
“It’s just that, subjectively, I can’t quite connect the many dots between primordial blast of energy and particles 14.7 billion years ago and me (along with billions of other human minds). It’s like if you take a coin out of your pocket and flip it onto your hardwood floor [and it ends] up on its edge.”
Deal yourself five cards. What are the odds of drawing that exact hand? Congratulations–you’ve just proved the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
This article made a big splash among ex-Baha’is awhile back:
https://bahai-library.com/momen_marginality_apostasy
Money ‘graf: ‘By the late 1990s, […] the word “leavetaker” or “defector” was being applied to those who just left a religion while the word “apostate” was now referring “not to ordinary religious leavetakers . . . but to that subset of leavetakers who are involved in contested exits and affiliate with an oppositional coalition” (Bromley, 1998b, p. 5).’
Here’s how I picked my current United Methodist Church:
When COVID first hit and our stake closed down our ward attempts to do something online, I was really feeling the need for religious community. It was also the Easter / Lenten period. Every single church in my TN city had online services, so I would watch 2 to 3 different services each Sunday, including some of those from friends of other faiths in different states. At that time I was necessarily planning on completely leaving the Mormon church, but I had been debating it every week for a couple of years, so I was definitely happy for the chance just lurk and see how other Christians approached their faith. When our ward was finally allowed to start up sacrament meetings many months later, it felt like an awful contrast. Our sacrament meetings had so little of Christ centered worship and really just were not very spiritually satisfying. So I shifted more and more to just virtually attending the UMC congregation that I had found out of the various congregations that I had sampled to really inspire me.
If we had a Community of Christ congregation nearby, I think I would be very excited to sample it.
I kind of think that some of us have a genetic propensity to like religious kind of community. Unlike Dave B, I am quite able to conceive of how the universe could self-assemble. It is in the nature of the particles generated by the Big Bang. Probably deep inside, I know there isn’t really a God like what the Mormon version of God is portrayed, but in truth, I am willing to go with it because a universe without some very powerful being who loves me and will ultimately right the injustices of this world is more than I can bear at the moment. So I am a bit of a coward that way.
A wonderful reminder of the many chuckles enjoyed while reading the bloggernacle in years past, as it served up its trademark surfeit of self-congratulatory rectitude where exmos are concerned.
Natural selection is not random chance, which seems to be assumed in the kinds of arguments given here. Traits that are beneficial or lead to a higher survival rate are preferred to those that don’t – that’s not remotely random.
If you grew up in the notion that all other religions are an abomination and one of them in particular the “whore of all the earth” is it really that hard to see why exMormons aren’t eager to go join them?
That and if you take skepticism a bit beyond Mormonism, the classical arguments for God aren’t all that compelling and the textual criticism lays a pretty compelling case that the Jesus narrative on the gospels is from late accounts that contradict each other on pretty significant details like the resurrection.
Thanks for the comments, everyone. Lots of commenters have had interesting views and experiences to share, so I just let the thread ride for awhile.
christiankimball, thanks for weighing in, you always share insightful comments. The problem with solo, self-defined religion is it sells congregational community short. We humans are social creatures, not hermits. Doing religion by yourself is like doing football by yourself. You’ve probably read Robert Bellah’s comments on Sheilaism. That’s what I think of every time I see someone outlining some form of solo religion.
Brad D, productive pragmatic compromises (maybe accommodation is a better word) of the type you outline are what works for most people.
Mike Spendlove and others, you are correct the Church has no category for “good Ex-Mormon.” There is never a lesson on “how to thrive after leaving the LDS Church.” Which is why we have those discussions online and encounter a wide variety of views on the topic.
Angela C, yes a lot of people come to distrust most or all institutions based on their life experiences. The problem is how far you go with that distrust. Maybe the best approach is to lower expectations. Don’t expect too much from your employer, your local school system, the government, or your church. But most people still have to interact with those institutions.
Canadian Dude and chinoblanco, thanks for sharing. Maybe re-read the OP? I could have thrown in a paragraph or two about secular avenues for seeking meaning and moral context following disaffiliation. I could have talked about All Things Shining: Reading the Western Classics to Find Meaning In A Secular Age (Free Press, 2011) by Hubert Dreyfus, a Berkeley philosopher. But there’s only so much I can squeeze into one blog post and the primary topic was why many or most who leave the LDS Church tend to sour on religion in any form. Y’all are reacting as if my title was “There Are No Good Ex-Mormons.” No, it is “How to Be A Good Ex-Mormon,” and there has been a lot of good discussion around that topic.
Dave B, for a modest clarification, I don’t advocate “solo self-defined religion.” Rather, I observe that self-defined is the order of the day, as in everybody does it if they’re honest with themselves. And that solo vs community is part of the definition.
When labels are called for I do call myself a Christian who practices with Mormons. But that’s not a category generally offered, many self-professed Christians won’t have me, many traditional members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are skeptical and suspicious, and the few self-labelled ex-Mormons I know are pretty sure that’s not me. None of the above is often the best I can do.
Aporectic, I like your analogy to a gym. Now, my problem with all Christian religions, they set all their gym equipment for men and it is almost impossible as a woman not to injure oneself by weights that are too heavy, exercise bikes that are too high, chin up bars that you have to jump to reach. So, my daughter found a gym called paganism that is set up for women and she really loves it. I have found it is much easier and much safer to buy my own exercise equipment and work out at home or go for hikes under the big blue cathedral dome. At first my husband was upset that I didn’t want to keep injuring myself at his choice of gym, but he had seen the injuries of trying to make the wrong equipment work for me, and he now supports my avoidance of male sports equipment. He sees what a big difference it makes in my spiritual health not to try to work with a system that is all wrong for me. He tells the representatives from his gym to just leave me alone and not even try to get me to renew my membership in a gym that was all wrong for me.
Dave B. I actually did read the post. That’s what made me desirous to comment. The thanks means nothing though if it isn’t sincere.
Your flippant response assumes I didn’t read the post, and is unhelpful nor does it actually respond to my original concern.
From the article:
“ Let me push back on that a bit, suggesting that if you leave the Church, you shouldn’t just wash your hands of religion and thereafter dismiss ultimate questions about Life and the Universe.
The problem with the “Science, Big Bang, etc.” response is that, well, here we are — rational, reflective, moral (to some degree) beings. We think not just in terms of our next meal and having a roof over our heads, but also of the well-being of family members and friends.”
With all due respect the above quote by yourself is a strawman of an “None” position and mischaracterizes those who pick that particular “door” as described by yourself.
The article’s argument contains still the language of gatekeeping and both demarcation as to what pathways of leaving the church are considered worthier or less worthy in your eyes- but you have yet to substantiate why.
Why does one need religion or spirituality to ask ultimate questions about the universe? You can’t really discuss the normative ways one can leave the church if you aren’t careful to understand and explain these in a fair and objective manner.
Also- why lump my comment as though it weren’t distinct from the other critic you mentioned? Ours are two different concerns by two different actors. It reads like doubling down and further oversimplifying those arguments that disagree with you.
Feels like the OP has fallen into the trap many of my Mormon family has fallen into, the assumption that “to be a good person, you need to go to a church of some sort” (but they will still look down on you if you choose any church besides the Church). Millions have left religion and seem to be doing just fine.
Also kind of ignoring the fact that people leaving religion in general is not unique to Mormonism. Most all American Christian churches are losing members, and most of those who have left have become Nones.
Thanks for the comments, folks.
christiankimball, I guess you’re a Deeply Reflective None, or possibly a Celestial None.
Canadian Dude, who’s being flippant? It seems like you would be one to have something to say about “how to be a good Ex-Mormon” (forgive me if I presume you are out, you might very well be living on the inside of the edge, as christiankimball would say). But re-reading your two comments, I get just this: “What matters to me is that people are honest and considerate upon the grounds and extent to which they can realistically make their truth claims- and expect others of the polis to abide by them.” Okay, be kind and tolerant. Do unto others. About 90% of humanity would endorse that, religious or not. Anything to add?
You ask, in the second comment, “Why does one need religion or spirituality to ask ultimate questions about the universe?” One doesn’t need religion for that, but that’s where most people engage those questions, if at all. There aren’t many who take the time and energy to do a secular inquiry into those questions. If you have done so, please share.
Dave B.
If one doesn’t need religion or spirituality to ask ultimate questions of the universe then explain the framing as quoted from you below:
“ Now let’s talk for a paragraph or two about atheism, a sub-category of Nones (that is, I imagine a full-blooded atheist who responds to a poll checks “None of the above” if there isn’t a separate “atheist” category). I think some or many Ex-Mormons who exit the Church and who don’t join up to some degree with another church might think of themselves as atheist but haven’t really thought it through. If they have, they probably point to that old college physics book and college biology book on their bookshelf, particularly the chapters on evolution, and say, “Science, Big Bang, evolution, we’re just rational human animals, and that’s that. What’s on TV tonight?” Let me push back on that a bit, suggesting that if you leave the Church, you shouldn’t just wash your hands of religion and thereafter dismiss ultimate questions about Life and the Universe.”
Please. Stop. Gaslighting.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say.
Discussion about the Nones brings up in my mind folks like Victor Hugo. I may not be a very deep thinker, but I learned far more about what it means to be a human by reading Les Misérables than I have yet from any religious text, despite Hugo being an outspoken “None.” (For those unaware, Hugo rejected his Catholic upbringing and settled in to a Rationalist belief system later in life. When a census-taker asked Hugo in 1872 if he was a Catholic, and he replied, “No. A Freethinker.” Surely this would be counted as a “None” today.) Frankly I find it laughable to suggest that Hugo, and others like him, are not engaging with the deep questions of existence and humanity. I would argue that, as a percentage, a similar proportion of Nones and dedicated religious folks engage with the Big Questions in life, even if most people do not.
I guess I don’t see how one’s chosen spiritual (or secular) path post-Mormonism has any bearing whatsoever on whether one is considered “good.” Spirituality is completely subjective and is usually only loosely connected with ethics. You could be a moral atheist and an immoral theist or vis versa. The key to being a good ex-mo (or current-mo), IMHO is simple: just don’t be an A-hole about it. To be honest, I’ve only encountered a handful of truly antogonistic, in your face ex-mos, and most of them are lurking on ex-mo reddit – not in person and certainly not on W&T. So I guess that makes most ex-mormons “good ex-mormons.”
Zwingli: My Tuesday post shared some stats about the secularization across multiple denominations in Utah, moving from the church they were raised in to “none” as an adult. There is also data on those who converted to other faiths in that same table in the Cragun report (p. 171). Here’s a quick rundown across different faith backgrounds (religion at age 12) vs. where they now are as adults. In most categories, the “nones” or secularization beat all other religious affiliations as the most likely conversion path, but there were a few interesting differences. Buddhists were more likely to become Christian than “none,” for example. Here’s the data for Utah residents by faith on retention, secularization (conversion to “no religion), and conversion to a different faith:
– LDS / Mormon: 67% retention, 24% secularization, 10% conversion to other faiths
– No religion: 76% retention, already secular, 18% conversion (10% to LDS)
– Catholic: 62% retention, 20% secularization, 18% conversion to other faiths (8% to LDS)
– Non-denominational Christian: 56% retention, 28% secularization, 16% conversion to other faiths (10% to LDS)
– Other Christian sects: 49% retention, 22% secularization, 29% conversion to other faiths (15% to LDS)
Others have extremely small sample sizes, so are likely to be VERY inaccurate, but here goes:
– Jewish: 60% retention, 7% secularization, 33% conversion to another faith (13% to LDS)
– Buddhist: 67% retention, 0% secularization, 33% conversion to another faith (11% to LDS)
– Muslim: 55% retention, 18% secularization, 27% conversion to another faith (9% to LDS)
– Other: 68% retention, 11% secularization, 21% conversion to another faith (0% to LDS) – Not sure if these are JW or SDA or what, but it’s fewer than 20 people in the survey, so doesn’t probably matter…
Interestingly, to me anyway, the church in Utah is winning converts second only to secularization which is converting double digits from every faith category; the highest retention rates are in those who were raised without a church. It kind of feels like the river flows in one direction.
I honestly don’t understand why it is surprising that LDS who leave the church are also likely to leave organized religion as well. A disgruntled Protestant, and this is definitely a conversion seen through that lens, is probably initially dissatisfied with their own congregation or the theological and cultural biases expressed by the governing body of their Protestant flavor. And there is a whole range of other flavors and congregations available to them when they begin to question, so changing congregations, at least in the short term, satisfies the need for change.
An active and committed LDS who questions doesn’t have the option of satisfying the urge for change by finding another LDS flavor, so leaving usually means rejecting foundational LDS religious principles. And once LDS principles are rejected it is just an incremental logical step to question broader Christian foundational principles as well.
How is questioning the validity of an isolated frontier farm boy creating a religion that much different than questioning the validity of a rural Catholic monk in medieval Germany creating a religion based on the christian writings, seemingly created largely from his greco-roman education, of a Roman citizen who never met Christ, never witnessed his ministry and never participated in it?
How is questioning the validity of the Book of Mormon as a sacred text much different than questioning the validity of the various stories, bizarre anecdotes and fables collected in the Bible?
How is rejecting angels and gold plates any different than rejecting people walking on water, feeding thousands with a few loaves and fishes or raising the dead?
How is rejecting LDS versions of judgement and the after life any different than rejecting the strange concept that someone, by bleeding in a garden and being tortured on a cross, can somehow pay for my sins?
Why is it so shocking and incomprehensible that someone who decides that phrenology is bunk will also reject astrology?
Charles, thank you so much for noting Victor Hugo, a personal hero of mine!
When we think people are suddenly “woke” today I think he laid out the injustices that fall on many in society and made clear how it weakens and demeans us all to close our eyes to issues that have persisted despite median education levels, technology, prosperity or religiosity
We’re human. If we could only all open ourselves to the needs instead of laboring to separate ourselves from it…
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
Canadian Dude, gaslighting, moi? Hardly. In the OP I said, “That’s an argument for giving serious consideration to ultimate questions ….” That can be through religion, and just because Mormonism didn’t work for someone doesn’t mean some other form of Christianity will. Or that can be through some secular approach (literature, science, philosophy, history, art, lots of options). I was cautioning against those leaving Mormonism checking out of that inquiry completely. As noted earlier, the focus of the post was the issue of those leaving Mormonism just checking out of religion entirely, which is not necessarily warranted. The Church predisposes members to think badly of other Christian denominations.
Also, in my previous comment I said, “One doesn’t need religion for that, but that’s where most people engage those questions, if at all.” So OBVIOUSLY I’m not writing off those who look into the meaning of life through secular points of entry. Most people think at those questions through religion, some pick another approach, some don’t think about them at all. The degree of your misunderstanding is so significant that I think you’re just repeating tropes and catchwords from earlier discussions, maybe on one of those Mormon boards where everyone likes to argue a lot. W&T is a pretty open forum and lots of views and opinions are welcome. But if you’re going to pick an argument with the OP, get your facts straight and read with a little more comprehension.
And honestly, try composing a coherent paragraph. You’ve left three comments and I still can’t figure out what your point is, except that you’re upset and don’t like religion, particularly Mormon religion. Which is fine if that’s all you have to say (commenters here often express similar opinions) but don’t expect a pat on the back for it like it has never occurred to anyone here before.
Anna, thanks. I agree with all of the points that you make. I’m glad that you and your daughter have both found practices that work for you. They sound valid to me (not that that matters), and I’m happy that you are happy and healthy (and not being injured). Much love to you and your daughter.
Dave B,
From re-reading your post and your comments, it’s very difficult for me to ascertain whether you think it is possible for atheist nones to engage in “ultimate questions”. While in your latest comment you say:
and
But it doesn’t really feel like you actually think that most secular folks are engaging the questions absent of religion.
I’ll focus on a paragraph from the original post:
So, here, you have divvied out a category of Nones. I agree that not all Nones are agnostic or atheist (and I vaguely recall that the data shows that Nones are absolutely a distinctive group separate from those who would self-identify as agnostic or atheist), so I’ll just focus on this subset.
You subdivide exMormons who do not join other churches as either “atheists but haven’t really thought it through” or “atheists who have thought it through” by “probably pointing to old college physics books”. Your response is for these people to not just wash their hands of religion and dismiss ultimate questions about Life and the Universe.
So, from this paragraph, it doesn’t seem clear that you think there is an appreciable subset of atheists who “have thought it through” and still engage ultimate questions. Maybe there are a few, but not a lot.
Just to clarify that for you these are mutually exclusive, you reinforce near the end of your piece with:
In other words, checking Nones or Atheist is contrary to giving serious consideration to ultimate questions. To you, if someone has given serious consideration to ultimate questions, then they
And the only acceptable course of action, it appears, for addressing the question of “what is going on here” is “to try another church and see if a different Christian perspective offers a more satisfying set of answers and community.”
In your first response to Canadian Dude, you say
Yes, IMO, it would have been helpful to throw in a paragraph or two about secular avenues for seeking meaning and moral context following disaffiliation. Because, from the original post, what it ACTUALLY seems like is your answer of “How to be a Good Ex-Mormon” is to not self identify as secular, atheist, agnostic, none. Rather, it is always to “find another community” and that community seems like it should be religious, preferably Christian.
I’m going to go slightly on the attack here. In your 2nd response to Canadian Dude, you say
To the contrary, I would say 90% of humanity does not endorse “being kind and tolerant.” To the contrary, there are absolutely religious perspectives that says that toleration of sin is itself sinful, and anathema. Who say that our society should be a Christian society that does not promote or tolerate LGBT relationships or identity. We are living in a society that is increasingly criminalizing LGBT (especially T, but the rhetoric used against transgender folks is warmed over from the same rhetoric used against lesbians, gays, and bisexuals from yesteryear.)
I will state more starkly that although bigotry is not intrinsically religious and can therefore be gussied up even with secular rationalizations, that it is VERY clear to me that there’s a lot of religious folks who *would* like to be kind to LGBT friends, family, but for their religious commitments that they believe commit them otherwise. Because they are counseled by their religious leaders about “tough love,” “speaking the truth with love,” and other set expressions.
EDIT: So, again, my point is that many people have reasons for not thinking that religions have the answer here. In fact, our experience primes us to think that religion actually causes a lot of mess that we think would not happen nearly as much absent specific religious justifications. For a lot of us, part and parcel of these “ultimate questions” includes a bootstrapping for justifying these sorts of bigotries.
Furthermore, while you say at the end of your 2nd response to Canadian Dude:
The last part undercuts the former. You say one doesn’t need religion to engage ultimate questions, but you don’t seem to really have ideas as to what a secular inquiry into the questions would entail — so “if” someone has done so (and it’s not clear you think it’s possible), you need people to “share”.
As people HAVE shared how they live their lives outside of traditional religious communities, you have questioned many of those things as being inadequate to you in one way or another.
Pardon me for chiming in–
Re: is it possible for atheist nones to engage in ultimate questions.
Of course it is. But I think the more important question should be: can they get the answers?
@Dave B, that “…” is doing a lot work in its reformulation. Let’s see what quote from your OP said in full:
“**That’s not a watchmaker argument for God and devoted membership in the local Christian congregation of your choice.** That’s an argument for giving serious consideration to ultimate questions rather than checking the Nones or Atheist box on a questionnaire, **as if that is an adequate response to the story of your life.**”
Hopefully I used the boldface correctly.
Yes. I am ‘slow of speech’. That much is true. I lack the rhetor’s skill but I am relatively good at sensing leaps of logic.
I agree with Zwingli’s assessment.
Ultimately the entire post seems to be a kind of ‘concern trolling’ (look it up) that fails to establish that there are even any grounds for concern. The OP fails to establish why ‘Nones’ generally, and atheist specifically, are or would necessarily be lacking in:
1) “philosophy of life or a perspective on the meaning of Life and the Universe.”
2) ultimate questions about Life and the Universe
3) serious thought on such issues.
The original OP argument itself can’t even make up its mind as to the existence of the problem- because as the OP notes, the category of “None” in a research survey, is a catch all category and says nothing on broader beliefs about purpose nor philosophy.
The fact that OP’s problem comes back to how others self-identity is likewise concerning. Why does it matter to you? What’s at stake? How? Why?
Someone I think mentioned it before, but I’ll say it again, the argument is curious because left unsaid is the fact that it chooses to problematize what it considers to be faulty reasoning of self-declared a “nones” or “atheists” than a religious or spiritual believer.
@Andrew S
Exactly!
Anna, my analogy involves food.
Catholicism is like McDonalds–the biggest one, the laziest choice, the easiest target.
Eastern Orthodoxy is like Burger King–pretty much the same as McDonalds, but they make a big deal about their different cooking process, and don’t have that head clown.
Islam is like Starbucks–it’s a different culture, and can really get you wide-eyed and hopped up.
The New Age is like one of those pricey experimental restaurants that serve God knows what.
And indigenous religions are like home cooking.
(No, I haven’t thought of a good one for Mormonism. Any ideas?)
I’ll take Andrew S’s point, and go a little further in my own direction. Dave B, you said: “One doesn’t need religion for that, but that’s where most people engage those questions, if at all. There aren’t many who take the time and energy to do a secular inquiry into those questions. If you have done so, please share.”
First, my experience talking with people who are atheist / agnostic vs. my experience talking with people who consider themselves religious is the exact opposite from what you describe. There are doubtless exceptions to the rule, but from what I see, those who are atheist or agnostic have given much MORE thought to these weightier questions of life than their religious counterparts have. When Nelson referred to “lazy learners,” it was (and many here would agree) a case of projection. The great weakness of religion is that it not only provides the answers, but conveniently limits the questions to the answers it wants to provide, then it claims that it’s the only place you can find the answers to life’s big questions.
Now let’s take a few flippant non-religious examples: 1) a potsmoker’s circle / pick whatever drug you like–these are secular discussions, but people in these altered states often open their minds to having very big life discussions regarding the nature of the universe, and 2) book clubs. If you want to have a deep discussion on human nature and how the world works, join a good book club and read some of the great authors: Hugo (as mentioned above), Shakespeare, Austen, Wollstonecraft, Dickens, Trollope, etc. By contrast, if you try to do this in a church, you are told to stick to the script. Some questions are permitted; others are discouraged. And don’t you dare question the answers. Again, try this with any Church. This isn’t a unique phenomenon to Mormonism, but it is definitely illustrative of Mormon discussions. (Not so much in off-site Mormon discussions, but these types of study groups have been discouraged).
When I was in HS, the most thoughtful people about life and the universe were always the atheists / agnostics. They had considered religious ideas like what happens when you die, the nature of good vs. evil, how to best help the poor, and they had ideas that were fresh and unique and not just a recitation of some catechism they were handed as a child.
@ Jack
“”Re: is it possible for atheist nones to engage in ultimate questions.”
Of course it is. But I think the more important question should be: can they get the answers?”
Since “the answers” are the moral values to set up their personal framework/narrative, humanity as a whole needs these individual to “get the answers” – to live their lives with a sustainable personal world-view that generates humane behavior towards themselves and others.
The rub is that populations of atheists, agnostics, and “nones” (with a variety of overlaps) are by definition “not faithful to God (or less faithful to God)” – so aren’t “entitled” to “godly revelation”, so their point of view is not worth listening to (because it won’t lead the listener to God). I’m actually going to add “non-Christian” as a population group for my example below – because the point is the same.
We watch anime as a family – and one of the things that I have given a lot of thought about over the years is “the answers demonstrated in cartoon” on living a non-Christian life. The struggles, personal development, ethical decision-making opportunities, demonstration of consequences for those decisions, etc. has shown to me that “people find answers of all types to questions of all types everywhere. It is more useful to look at the exact question being asked and why the question is being asked then it is to assume that “only the answer matters”.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
When the comments are as engaging as the OP, I consider it a win.
Andrew S, I’m flattered you gave such a careful reading of my OP and comments. I would just repeat my earlier statement that the post focused on exiting Mormons and why they tend to (at least initially) give up on religion as a whole. If someone buys a car and it turns out to be a lemon, they don’t typically say, “That’s it. Never buying another car, ever.” No, they say, “I’m gonna do more research and do more test drives and talk to my mechanic friend before I buy another car, to make sure it’s a good one.” So if exiting Mormons sour completely on religion, that merits some discussion. Which is what initially spurred my post.
As for the related question about ultimate questions or life philosophy, that’s really embedded in moral philosophy, the pressing question of “how do you live your life.” Hats off to anyone who engages deeply in that question, whether through religion or any of the secular approaches I mentioned a couple of times above (philosophy, science, art, literature, and so forth). My general sense is that for every person who does that, there are a couple of dozen who use religion as their template for the Big Questions. Maybe this should be revisited when the next Pew Survey publishes updated data, with yet another increase in the “Nones” category.
Canadian Dude, it’s a blog post, not a carefully outlined and reviewed journal article. I sit down Tuesday morning and bang out a post in 60 or 90 minutes, then hit “post.” So I acknowledge that the OP sort of raised several related issues without carefully distinguishing them. Maybe I’ll revisit the topic from a different angle a few weeks down the road. Thanks for continuing the conversation.
Angela C, I had a similar thought as I reviewed the comments and considered a future post revisiting the topic. In particular, the idea that religious people tend to consider themselves as having a firm and robust moral sense, when in fact they often just take an institutional list of priorities and *think* they are following a moral map or plan for life. In fact, they are not really engaging in the sort of deep reflection that has been kicked around above at all. Which sheds light on why religious people often behave in rude and offensive and even violent behavior, while at the same time thinking they are “doing the right thing.” They stereotype non-religious people (or, in our context, exiting Mormons) as pursuing an “eat, drink, and be happy” lifestyle, when they themselves are pursuing a “do what you’re told” lifestyle, not a “do the right thing” or a “think deeply about the meaning of life and how to live a worthwhile life” approach.
Dave B,
What if, instead of finding out that the car you bought is a lemon, you found out that your car is dangerous? You drove it for decades of your life, convinced other people to get cars, and what finally did it for you wasn’t that it was a lemon, but that even though it made a lot of people happy to drive them, there were *casualties*. And then, in doing research, you found out that it wasn’t just your car — actually, cars *generally* are dangerous. They are not simply personally dangerous (and in fact, personally, they are very useful. If you’re only thinking personally, as you once had been, then you may have been completely unaware of all of the ills they have. Or you may have reasoned in your mind that the ills were worth the cost.) But the more you look, the more you learn that they are bad for the environment, bad for culture, bad for children, etc., etc., It’s a systemic thing. You might think, “Well, maybe I can get an electric car,” but you already know even since you had an internal combustion engine car that the electric car manufacturers were pulling some shady math to try to hide their own environmental sins. And plus, the range concerns…how will you travel long distance? The “traditional” apparatus already has you convinced that they were the best option for cars. And those other ills aren’t actually *solved* by electric cars. They still keep society the way it is, atomised and sprawing.
In reality, the “best” way forward is to move away from car dependency to public transport, trains, etc., and personally more healthier transport options like bikes. To change how society is built so that cars aren’t *necessary* to get from here to there.
To someone living in a car centric culture, this may seem strange, ludicrous. “How can cars be all that bad?” your car dependent friends ask. “I get plenty done in my cars, and they don’t seem that bad to me. And cars are actually *good* for my family,” they may say. “I’m not quite sure society would work that well without cars. I mean, in *theory* people could do all the sorts of traveling and things without a car, but maybe someone who got a bad car should just get a better car, like one of those new electric cars…someone who is preaching against cars probably has something wrong with them…It’s worth a discussion of what is wrong with them. Why abandon cars when they could just be a responsible car owner of a new car?”
…ok, there is certainly one thing in this scenario that reveals the unusual insight of the analogy. It’s that there usually has to be an “inciting event” to convince someone that something that is entrenched in society is actually harmful for that society. We (especially in America) are nowhere near a tipping point of realizing Cars Are Bad, Actually, and you’re correct that bad things happening to us in cars is usually not enough to incite someone away from thinking that *this* car was bad to cars generally are bad.
It’s fair to say that in a society that already has moved away from car dependency, then maybe people aren’t giving it a lot of thought any more. And yet, advocates for moving from car dependency will point out that even this choice wasn’t just happenstance about different people. Amsterdam didn’t just “happen” to become car independent. To the contrary, it started down the path of car dependency and conscious efforts redesigned it to car independence. People Thought About It.
So when someone leaves Mormonism or any other religion and decides Religions Are Bad, Actually, it actually is possible to have a discussion where “Could religion actually be bad?” is an option. I know that’s painful for people who are currently religious because who wants to feel complicit? But it’s possible to have the creativity, the intellectual curiosity, to imagine that when someone abandons religion *entirely* in a society where religion is so entrenched, that they probably *have* thought about it a lot, even if they didn’t mean to or want to. Even if you think they thought wrong.
“None of the above” is not a philosophy of life or a perspective on the meaning of Life and the Universe. Anyone who thinks they are a None just hasn’t thought very seriously about the issue.”
Many of the comments have touched on the unpolished edges of your OP here, and done so very well. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but some of your comments are dismissive, especially this one. It has definite “lazy learner” vibes. When people want sacredness, connection, meaning or personal enrichment, they often find this outside of the rules and strictures of an organization. When we don’t fit into the boxes (thanks Anna!) we wind up by default in the “None” category, even if that box doesn’t adequately define us, either. I am spiritually, socially and culturally a Mormon. I have a deep connection with and fondness for many of the doctrines taught in the Church. I attend most Sundays, but disagree strongly with some of the policies of the institutional church. I live on Christian Kimball’s inside of the edge, and that’s the place I fit at this particular point in my journey. I am invested in the Gospel and in a deeper connection with God, but I am not so invested in the “philosophies of men” that are so prevalent everywhere, including in the Church. Even though I am active in the Church, I would put myself more in the category of a Mormon-aligned “None” than any other box. I have though very seriously about the issues, and that is the place where those thoughts have taken me.
Thx for the thx @Dave B. I’ll try to be more blunt in some ways and less than others. My learning-disability sometimes makes communication difficult but I can improve in both my tone and clarity. I too sometimes post without grammar checking. I gently suggest however that the only harm the latter generates is reader confusion and frustration.
I realize and respect that these articles are blog articles and not constructed in the same same way nor for the same purposes as a scholarly journal article. I only ask that the original premise and assumptions behind an article be first critically evaluated and defended in the post.
I concur with @Angela C and @Andrew S in their comments. There are assumptions baked within the OP argument that aren’t sufficiently justified.
As for the ‘buying a Car’ analogy-
what makes your model sufficiently similar to the experience of a None leaving religion/ spirituality as to use it as a model?
Why not a bad experience with cabbage salad and an individual’s refusal to eat cabbage thereafter?
Or a person discovering they have a nut allergy after eating an almond bar?
Celiac individuals and bread?
Gay conservative disaffiliating from party membership?
Our choice of analogy(dis)incentivizes different responses from the actors involved and their total range of possibilities realistic in their context.
Cabbage is much easier to do without than bread *or cars. There was no allergy mentioned in the cabbage example so it’s a preference unrelated to life or death. Bread can be avoided, but gluten-free bread and grains are still possible for the celiac. Most of these examples are strictly individual with little mention of any larger sociopolitical structure. But the celiac gets tired when gluten-free food are not as advertised, and the gay conservative might instead rather support a party that doesn’t make themself or others the target of false and malicious attacks. Or remove themselves from partisan politics altogether. Their choice.
@Andrew S is correct that the sociomaterial reality we’ve built in N. America puts unwarranted pressure on car ownership. One can argue that’s just reality but social constructs have a role in making reality- and these can and do change.
Methinks the choice in using the car analogy speaks to your underlying assumptions on necessity of both cars and religion. Analogies are used to represent ideas, which of themselves contain norms, priorities, and structures of power.
*Questions re: the appropriateness of the proposed car analogy to the OP’s subject matter are meant for @Dave B. in case that wasn’t clear.
The cars analogy is pretty interesting because I feel roughly the same about organized religion as I do about car use. I don’t particularly like either, and would rid my life of both if I could. Cars are noisy and dangerous. They pollute the air and between parking and highways take up way too much valuable real estate. They enable suburban sprawl and ultimately the current situation where the lowest paid workers often have the longest commutes. None of this has any relation on my satisfaction with any particular car.
While my current situation doesn’t allow me to get rid of car usage entirely, I’ve been able reduce car usage to 3-5 days a week, by walking to work. At least half of the times I do use a car, I’m not the only occupant. I’m not quite to retirement age, but as I get there I hope to find a place where there is little or no requirement for a personal vehicle.
About 18 percent of the world’s population owns a car. By contrast 90% of humans are religious. I don’t know if it is a good analogy.
Amy,
I pretty-much agree with the portion of your comment that follows your definition of what the answers are to the ultimate questions. Where I disagree, I think, is with you might consider the ultimate questions to be. I believe that moral values are based on super important questions. But even so, there are questions that run even deeper–and they’re the kinds of questions that can only be answered by divine revelation, IMO. Is there a God? Is there life after death? And so forth.
With the clear understanding that analogies have their limitations here’s my 2 cents on the religion-car analogy:
We might be like Disney’s Goofy, waiting on the shoulder of a lonely highway, who passes up one opportunity after another to get a ride because none of the cars match his expectations of a quality automobile.
This post and Angela’s that preceded it could be combined to start a “Taxonomy of Ex-Mormons”.
With all the talk of statistics and characteristics of different types of ex-Mormons, I’ve come up with some scientific latin names so we can keep them all straight:
–“Ex mormonus vulgaris” for your standard ex-Mormon.
–“Ex mormonus saeculari” for those the secularized folks.
–“Ex mormanus romanus” for those who became Catholic.
–“Ex mormonus protestantus” in the Protestant camp.
–“Ex mormonus atheus” for the now atheist crew. I suppose we could have an “agnostici” classification too.
–“Ex mormonus vaccus” could be for all the rest of these so-called “Nones” (not to be confused with any ex-mormons who later became nuns, who should be classified under “romanus”)
On a more serious note and to answer the title of the post, I think the best way to be a good ex-Mormon is still to be kind and open to people who still remain in the church…which is exactly how I believe people in the church should treat those who decide to leave. I find that zealot hardliner Mormons and raging ex-Mormons can be equally grating to be around.
One day maybe we’ll figure out the supposed “one true answer” to all the big questions…but that’s not happening any time soon. In the meantime, however, we can try to understand and learn from people, even if we choose different paths in life.
Since OP referenced Ryan (my favorite exmo sociologist) just want to mention that Ryan’s insight about push and pull factors in his Mormon Stories interview was enlightening (to me). What pushes folks out of Mormonism is a separate bucket from what might pull them into a new community.
As far as creating taxonomies of exmos, one generalization I feel comfortable making… as exmos make their Mormon exits increasingly early in life, more exmos than ever would be more aptly described as ‘unchurched’ rather than ‘disaffected’. Good luck persuading them on the joys of the congregational lifestyle (OP’s cultural priors in that regard noted).
Also, I wish more members of the Mormon commentariat would acknowledge one of the healthiest aspects of the exmo subreddit: we cheer when people wave good-bye and move on. At it’s best, it’s a liminal space. If it one day becomes a ghost town because it’s no longer relevant or needed, great!
When Brad Wilcox asserts that other churches are merely “playing church” the condemnation is nearly universal.
When exmos are accused of merely “playing church” in their former lives, it’s just a Tuesday on the Internet.
I think some of the pushback here rightly reflects an irritation with the Wilcox-adjacent assertion that exmos are merely “playing life” as they move on from these types of convos.
Reading a thread with so many references to “ultimate concern” – a phrase so closely associated with Paul Tillich – I’ll just note (as an unapologetic atheist and wannabe Presbyterian) that I’m a fan.
“Loneliness expresses the pain of being alone and solitude expresses the glory of being alone.” –Paul Tillich
Is that glory accessible to those who obstinately pine for congregation? I have my doubts.
In any case, the more apt analogy is a motorcycle, where Mormonism is concerned. As someone who rides, I completely sympathize with those who decide, after suffering an all-too-common two-wheel disaster, “That’s it. Never riding another motorcycle, ever.” It’s a rational choice.
I don’t think my young adult kids who aren’t attending any church can accurately be called “nones.” They looked around when they left Mormonism and found churches with aged congregants, or churches that were too political, and others they ruled out for various reasons. They’re taking a break from searching and tending to the business of living and working and being decent people. Not sure that makes them Nones.
I was bothered by the car analogy, because I am a snowbird and Zillow rates one of my homes 3% walkability and the other at a shocking 0% walkability. In other words, you can’t go anywhere without a car. Not a park or to get a cup of coffee, you can go for a hike, not even a walk and not even a bike ride without a car. So, picking a different car if I decide one is dangerous is an absolute, and all the idealism of a no car community is laughable. Oh, I have lived places a car is optional, and yet when we needed a trip to the hospital or any emergency, it was *still* call a friend who has a car. You just can’t take an hour subway ride when in labor, and quite frankly, we couldn’t afford to take a taxi or call an ambulance. So, a no car world might be great 95% of the time if you live in a fairly big city. But rural Idaho has zero walkability, and now that I am over 70, even our big city experience where we lived with no car would not be possible. My brother lives in Ogden with no car, and still, about once a year, he has to call my children for a car ride. Even the Handicap transportation can’t take him home after surgery. He needs someone with a car.
But Chinoblano has the better analogy. If you decide a motor bike is dangerous, you can opt out. So, I decided organized religion is toxic and I have opted out. But I still have the spirituality I need (need that car) and there is no need for the dangers of human beings running an organized church (an unprotected object hurling me along at 70 mph like a motorbike) I still have the same morals, I still have the best spirituality and place to worship (so, maybe it is forest or desert, not a building) I get along just fine without a motorbike, and so do my friends (she lost a leg and spent weeks unconscious after being hit by a truck while on a motor bike) now that they have both decided that bikes are too dangerous.
As far as the food analogy, sorry, but you had me stumped for a while. I couldn’t fit Mormonism into the food analogy. But, I think I got it finally. Mormonism is a relief society dinner. The women do the work on too tight a budget and the food is boring.
Ruth makes a good point about what else is out there on offer in terms of competing churches. Upthread the comment was made that the CoC seems like a good landing place for former Mormons, but it’s more of a weigh station. The other issue is that there aren’t enough congregations nearby (in Utah specifically) as there are with ubiquitous LDS chapels.
But the church’s line about “where else will you go?” (which is applying a NT quote), it’s true that the other options feel meager to those leaving the Mormon church. The youngest people who are departing probably don’t (yet?) see that any church membership truly has value anyway, especially the prospect of paying 10% of your earnings, 20% of your time, and 50% of your headspace, to access full membership. If you think back to when you were young and single, suddenly too old for young men/women, and feeling like you were suddenly shoved in with your parents and their peers in either RS or EQ, you can see why this is unappealing. And the YSA wards are extremely focused on marriage and dating, which is a turn off for many. Plus, during the pandemic, the 50% of us who are introverted realized that we don’t have to participate in stuff.
From the friends I know in other faiths, Ruth is right that mainline Protestantism is aging out of relevancy (one friend, after I mentioned a Primary calling, said “Oh, that must be delightful. We haven’t had children in our congregation in decades it seems!”) The conservative faiths, by contrast, have full-throatedly embraced Trumpism for the most part, including Catholicism, based on the local Catholic church in my neighborhood. Their membership numbers are swelling, but the marquee and other messages make it clear whom they really worship. And then there are other faiths like UU which are very open-minded (unless you are conservative), and undogmatic. They are appealing on a belief level (for so many who leave, they are just tired of having their beliefs policed and crammed down their throats), but there’s still a question about the distance and cohesion of the congregation.
Maybe religion has run its course… The numbers certainly look like secularism is winning twice the converts across the board, and retaining 15% higher than Mormonism.
In the past few days I tried to cobble my thoughts into a coherent comment. Obviously I didn’t meet my own standards. But I kept waiting for someone to address the difference between religion and spirituality, and how badly the church integrates them, especially for women. But the corporate culture mainly seeks people trained to need the structures of religion, and the maturity individuals might achieve in developing their spiritual nature prompt the opposite of the benefits of infantilization to the corporate org. This applies double for many women.
As well, that tone in the OP grated on me too, but I kept trying to be gracious through the cranky exchanges. I didn’t want to join the fray, or take the time to deconstruct my own feelings why. But it would include something about lumping everyone together with statistics and calling them “None” when I believe most people would prefer to be hard-working learners, trying to understand their own spiritual natures, with or without reliance on authorities whose (once trusted) wisdom and insight has proven unreliable.
I think folks who wander off are motivated not only by their own needs, but by a desire for connection in a spiritual community, with a willingness to serve and strengthen, but are turned off by seeing those communities manipulated by powers that be who aren’t serving the whole community well, but are doing a pretty good job to further their own positions in the community.
My reasoning was never about [my own] atheistic tendencies, but did include being fed up by leaders using the sweetness of the gospel and the appeal of Christ’s radical rejection of bureaucratic corruption to manipulate people into toeing the line. My faith never changed very much, I just got tired of witnessing leaders stubbornly ignoring any feedback from the general members that they didn’t explicitly seek, while insisting on members’ loyalty to them as official spokesmen for God.