My wife was asked to talk in Church last week and this is the talk she gave.
Steve and I have been in Charlottesville for 6 weeks now. People keep asking us where we are from. The full answer is complicated. The short answer is that we are from Dallas.
Steve’s father was in the US Air Force. Steve grew up all over. I was raised in the San Francsico Bay area – and in Brazil. Steve and I moved to Texas in 1985 as newlyweds. I had just finished my first undergraduate degree at BYU and Steve had graduated from BYU’s law school. He was offered good employment in Texas. We expected to be in Texas for a year or two and then return to the west coast. That just never happened. Here it is 2023, and we still call Dallas our home.
The answer is complicated because we have not actually lived in Dallas since March of 2019. We have hiked the Appalachian Trail from Georgia to Maine – with a break in there to help out with a new grandbaby. We have also helped out that daughter for 9 months while her husband was sent to El Paso for a year with the Army Reserve. We have hiked 2400 miles of the Pacific Crest Trail that runs from Mexico to Canada. We have hiked the Pinhoti Trail through Northern Alabama and into Georgia. We spent some time on the Oregon Coast Trail this spring while we waited for the Washington section of the PCT to thaw out.
We did live in the Winchester area of Virgina for a year during the height of COVID. We loved that area – but they do not have an airport. We need to be close to an airport in order to visit family.
Yes, we both love to hike. We also recognize that we have a narrow window of opportunity. We are old. We need to do hard physical things now – or lose the chance to ever do them. We are working on our list of hard physical things that are important to us to accomplish. We expect the Continental Divide Trail will be next.
Steve is retired from a career in law. He was a litigator for a large insurance entity. Before that, he was a game designer back in the 1970s on something called Dungeons & Dragons. There is a Wiki page about his gaming contributions. Me? I have had a career in anesthesia as a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist. Currently, I have a temp contract with UVAs anesthesia department that will last until a few days before Christmas. They have asked me to extend the contract through mid-April. We are in negotiation. August to April — is a very long time to live out of a hotel.
While I am working at UVA, Steve is working on a D & D game design project. My contract includes housing that UVA arranges — so we are living out of a Marriott Residence Inn.
Charlottesville has been on our short list of places that we are considering as a permanent location. Working here for a few months gives us an opportunity to experience the town, the community and the weather. So far, we like it.
Many years ago, I was a SAHM and Steve had a young law practice. There is a certain dynamic of Mormon culture that can look like a factory conveyer belt. It includes being raised in an LDS home by parents who are married, being blessed as a baby, baptism at 8, seminary attendance, BYU for school, mission, temple marriage, starting a family and accepting lots of church callings.
My life had reflected that conveyer belt approach of Mormonism. Then we lost three of our children over a 4.5 year time span. Each was unexpected. Each was medical and each was completely different for the others. I had been Primary President and on the PTA board. Steve had been the Elders Quorum President and then the Stake Exec Secretary. We paid tithing and read scriptures and lived devoutly LDS lives.
Over my life, I had heard so many lessons and comments about the importance of living a righteous life. That if people lived according to the precepts of the gospel, the Lord would protect them. I had heard that God was BOUND to protect those who truly followed him.
We sat in the ashes and ruin of our life and we looked at the financial and emotional ruin and we grieved our children.
It felt like we fell off of the LDS conveyer belt and into the ancient story of JOB.
Our community was there for us with meals and kindness. They knew us and had known our children. They grieved with us. A few years later, we moved. We wanted to be someplace where we could be more than “The Family whose kids kept dying.”
After relocating, we found ourselves in a new ward and surrounded by people who never knew our deceased children. They did not grieve our children because they did not know them. For them, our losses were more remote.
In both locations, going through the loss of children in LDS culture was complicated. People are good and kind and wonderful. They also had expectations about how they wanted us to grieve. They expected us to be sad for a few days, announce that God Is Good, the Church is true, pick up our lives and move on. For so long, I felt that I had disappointed church members simply because I grieved.
They asked me many of the same questions that Job’s friends asked him.
I had friends ask me what we had done to anger God. They were hoping to find a reason why terrible things could not happen in their own lives. I had parents tell me that such horrific event could not happen to them – because they loved their children so much that God would never do that to them. Such statements did not feel kind to me. I had more than a few people tell me that God gives us what we asked for – so I must have asked for my children to be taken. I have had people tell me that all is fore-ordained so that my children, and us as parents, must have chosen this path in the pre-existence. So many people told me that we should be GRATEFUL that our children were with God. Funny how they never wanted the same for themselves.
So many people have told me that “God never gives you more than you can handle.” So .. God would never give them such a burden because they were not strong.
At first, I was simply shocked. As years went by, the comments kept happening. There would also be people who would come to me with their favorite scripture or inspirational story. They hoped to take 30 seconds of sharing and take away all of our grief and sadness.
The best thing to happen was an older friend who simply hugged me and said,
“ What a terrible, awful and horrible thing to be going through.” That was the first time I felt heard and felt validated. It felt good.
I lost common ground with our church community. It put my life on a different path. I lost faith in my church community.
I also felt lied to by the Prosperity Gospel tenants that I had been taught.
Our oldest daughter, Jessica, had the flu. We all did. The rest of us got better. She ended up in ICU, intubated and then on ECMO. She died of multiple system organ failure.
11 months later, our daughter Courtney died due to medical treatment related to her new type 1 diabetes diagnosis. Our baby, Robin, was born with a horrific heart defect. She survived her first of three surgeries and we were getting hopeful. She died unexpected of a fatal cardiac arrythmia.
I had been skipping along the path of life, and God suddenly handed me a 100 pound bag of rocks and told me that I had to carry that bag and I could not ask anyone else to help. Each death it felt like God handed me another 100 pound bag of rocks. I sat down on the path of life and cried. I kicked those bags of rocks. I asked other people to help me carry the rocks. They could not. The bag of rocks was mine. Friends and family gathered around and offered kind words and condolences. Eventually, each told me that they had to move forward but that they looked forward to me catching up with them later. They moved on.
No matter what kind words or scriptures were shared, I still had to learn how to carry those bags of rocks.
I continued to kick my bags of rocks. Steve had his own bags of rocks. Neither one of us was going anywhere fast. Eventually, we learned to drag those bags. We had to sit down and rest frequently, but we were moving. We were slow and felt like those bags were going to kill us. There were days that we prayed that those bags would finish us off.
As we moved, we found other people who were also burdened. We met those who had a similar pace. They had their own bags of rocks to carry. Some bags looked bigger, some looked smaller. None of us really know what was inside of the bag of another person. We were all struggling. We found solace and a sense of community as we each struggled.
There was a constant flow of people passing us by. We learned to focus on ourselves, our struggles and the struggles of those around us. Eventually, we got stronger and faster. We gained a quicker pace. Fortunately, Steve and I kept at a similar pace and we have remained on this path together.
We got stronger. We did begin to heal. That process was not fast and it was not smooth. It felt like I was learning to breath and learning to walk. I was learning to live my life in a different way. Eventually, those efforts sped up. I went back to school for a second undergrad degree and then on to graduate school. We had one more child along the way. Today, we have two living adult children and three deceased children. Our older daughter is married. She and her husband are both engineers. They have two children. We are GRANDPARENTS!! Our youngest daughter just finished her undergraduate degree in engineering and was asked to stay on for a PhD. She is at TAMU. We have loved being parents and we love being grandparents. We are grateful for those opportunities.
Years ago, we decided to spend a week hiking on the AT. Neither one of us had backpacked in years. That week led to a second trip and then a third. It eventually led to us selling our home, downsizing to a condo and many months of backpacking.
Why backpacking long trails? Because it is a physical journey that also has emotional and psychological components. For me, it was healing. We have met so many people who have chosen a trail for their own reasons. The is a real sense of community within the backpacking culture. We are finding others who search for answers in their own lives. We listen. We encourage their journeys.
What are my current goals? To please myself and to please God.
What is important to me? Have integrity to follow the path that God has put me on. To be happy.
Being true to myself and to my relationship with God. Giving others the same respect.
To give inclusion, kindness and grace to others has become an important part of my life. Each person is an expert of their own life. Each has a personal relationship with God. God is there to guide them. They do not need my lectures. They need my listening ear and my shoulder to cry on. They need community to love and support them while they figure out their own best path. They do not need my judgement. That is not my job. God does not need my help in that area.
Many years ago, I taught a lesson in Relief Society. As part of that lesson, I passed out 3 x 5 cards and asked everyone there to write down what brought them to church every Sunday. There were over 40 women in that room. I read the answers. Only one answer was about wanting to learn more about the gospel and scriptures. Literally every single other card was a note about wanting to find a feeling of belonging to a community of like-minded people. It was been close to 30 years since I taught that class but those individual answers made an impression. I look at any group of people in a different way now. That one lesson taught me that we all want to belong.
I found an Aesops’ fable, that was used in a conference talk by Elder Ashton. I want to share it with you.
One day, a long time ago, an old Miller and his Son were on their way to market with an donkey which they hoped to sell. They drove him very slowly, for they thought they would have a better chance to sell him if they kept him in good condition. As they walked along the highway some travelers laughed loudly at them.
“What foolishness,” cried one, “to walk when they might as well ride. The most stupid of the three is not the one you would expect it to be.”
The Miller did not like to be laughed at, so he told his son to climb up and ride.
They had gone a little farther along the road, when three merchants passed by.
“Oho, what have we here?” they cried. “Respect old age, young man! Get down, and let the old man ride.”
Though the Miller was not tired, he made the boy get down and climbed up himself to ride, just to please the Merchants.
At the next turnstile they overtook some women carrying market baskets loaded with vegetables and other things to sell.
“Look at the old fool,” exclaimed one of them. “Perched on the donkey, while that poor boy has to walk.”
The Miller felt a bit vexed, but to be agreeable he told the Boy to climb up behind him.
They had no sooner started out again than a loud shout went up from another company of people on the road.
“What a crime,” cried one, “to load up a poor dumb beast like that! They look more able to carry the poor creature, than he to carry them.”
“They must be on their way to sell the poor thing’s hide,” said another.
The Miller and his son quickly scrambled down, and a short time later, the marketplace was thrown into an uproar as the two came along carrying the Donkey slung from a pole. A great crowd of people ran out to get a closer look at the strange sight.
The donkey did not dislike being carried, but so many people came up to point at him and laugh and shout, that he began to kick and bray, and then, just as they were crossing a bridge, the ropes that held him gave way, and down he tumbled into the river.
The poor Miller now set out sadly for home. By trying to please everybody, he had pleased nobody, and lost his donkey besides.
Aesop said:” If you try to please all, you please none”. That is the usual takeaway lesson. Have a plan. Have a goal, Keep your eye on the goal, Do not let the murmurings and opinions of others to influence you.
SO .. Why this story?
So often, in social media and in real life, we are the villagers. We voice our opinions without being asked. We so often assume that if someone is not at church, God is not in their lives. We assume that different life choices and decisions are signs of evil. We assume that a violation of the Word of Wisdom, which is a Health Law, is enough to keep someone away from God. Too often, we forget that God is omniscient and omnipresent. God is all powerful. The same God who can be found in the horrors of war in a Fox Hole can certainly handle the local Dance Hall. We treat God as if he really needs our help. God is not a weakling.
For me, the process of moving forward from grief has taught me to be true to myself and to be true to my relationship with God. I choose what works for me. I choose what I feel brings me closer to God. Is that the right way to live a life? I have no idea. It is the right way for me to live my life
President Uchtdorf said: When we feel hurt, angry, or envious, it is quite easy to judge people. This topic could actually be taught in a two-word sermon. When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges, or wanting to cause harm, please apply the following:
Stop it!
We have to stop judging others and replace judgmental thoughts and feelings with a heart full of love for God and His children. God is our Father. We are His children. We are all brothers and sisters.
That is why Jesus is the higher law. His words are meant for us today. They are meant for you and me, he said: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you” (Matthew 5:44).
We are taught to” Love Our Neighbor As Ourselves”.
We all want a sense of belonging. We all want people to know our weaknesses and problems and love us anyway. We want to be loved where we are at right now – in spite of ourselves.
Maybe we can all work on simply being kind and embracing others exactly where they are right now – without setting goals or expectations for them. Maybe we can let others know that they are good enough just as they are.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
Wheat & Tares 
What a beautiful talk – thank you for sharing your wife’s words. My heart aches for the loss of your children, that is just horrific to have had to experience and live with. I am heartened that you survived it together.
I wish every sacrament meeting talk was like this. Talks like this break down the judgemental barriers and behaviors. Talks like this can expand community and at the same time instruct us. On the rare occasion when I heard a heartfelt talk like this, it made attending that day worth it. I walked out uplifted. Sadly, that was a rare occurrence. Between talks on temple attendance, missionary work, and regurgitated conference talks, sacrament meeting was painful, boring, and a real-time exercise in enduring to the end. You can guess by my use of the past tense “was” that I no longer attend. I feel that seismic changes would have to occur in the church for this kind of talk to be the norm. That’s unfortunate because eventually even stalwart members are going to tire of only “enduring” and being fed a steady diet of tap water, instead of needed nutrients.
Great stuff Winn. Thanks for sharing Steve. Accurate advice.
Thank you so very much. Kathy
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That is as good of a sacrament meeting talk as I have ever heard…or hope to hear! I wish we were privy to more heartfelt and personal talks like this in our worship services. Thank you so much for sharing. For a faith that talks so much about not judging….and about bearing one another’s burdens….we most commonly do a pretty poor job of it. We need more messages like this!!! Heartfelt sympathies for all you have borne….and continue to bear. You are my heroes.
I arose this morning as usual around 6:20 AM, followed my regular morning ritual of sitting in stillness. After the stillness I will usually read something devotionally, sometimes scripture, a page in a book, a poem, or in this case “Win Marsh talk”. Thank you for sharing here and in your public ward setting. Reading it this morning was a moving experience, one that caused my soul to swell, in both empathy for the struggle that mortality is, and gratitude for those willing to share their darkness so I don’t feel so alone. I am truly sorry for your heartbreaking losses; I don’t think Job had anything on you guys.
I will continue to beat my frustrating drum about how religion, with all its potential and possibility, has chosen the cheap path of trying to create a system that can clean up the mess of mortality, straighten all the lines, add some more 90-degree angles, escape sin and suffering, provide answers and explanations for life’s challenges, and somehow land us in a fantasy land if I can but endure this mess well enough. So, so, so sad. Life is a mess, in the words of Matthew Kelley, “The mess is not the problem. The problem is our erroneous belief that everything should be immaculate, orderly, neat, tidy, and in its place. The problem occurs when we try to live as if it isn’t so.”
As Job learns, not even God attempts to resolve Job’s seemingly unjust suffering, he doesn’t give Job an answer or explanation al all, he just tells him he was right for bringing all his questions, despair, heartache, doubts, biases, beliefs, etc. to the table, ALL of it, to be shared with God and his friends. Religion comes from the latin Re-ligare, which means to “connect again”. I’m afraid, often times, that religion is attempting to eliminate all the things that invoke connection. Commandments, God’s law, Morality are the response to suffering, not a way of explaining it.
Thank you for sharing this. I looked at my three young kids playing as I read it. I can’t even imagine. And honestly don’t want to. I’ll just live in my ignorant bubble. God bless you on your journey.
Also, I read your wiki. Thanks for suggesting planar travel to Gygax. I have loved every plane walking trip I have ever made! It makes it an adventure for me.
Nick
Thank you. This was profoundly moving to me because I to have suffered loss. Not the same but profoundly painful. I don’t want to get to personal. We were called as mission leaders several years ago, one week after our call, one son was arrested and was headed down a dark path that led to profound sorrow. Unfortunately, he pulled another son down the same path. Both RMs. We have felt the judging eyes of some in our religious community. Some people that I counseled with in over 20 years of leadership callings. Others, true friends have been like Job’s friends. There was literally no one to counsel with over our sorrow while serving our mission. We had to put the game face on every day and love and train our missionaries. That brought us great joy. But still the pain was there. Those that knew from home never asked. We returned from our mission and have mostly had callings that take us out of the ward. We don’t feel the same connection and community that we once had. I’ve spent a significantly amount of time studying the theology of suffering. Unfortunately, we don’t talk much about that in the church. We put on the game face and do our duty. Yet we still see or feel they eyes of judgement from time to time. But for a few close friends who are like Job’s friends. Church would be a very lonely walk.
I don’t want to get to personal. We were called as mission leaders several years ago, one week after our call, one son was arrested and was headed down a dark path that led to profound sorrow. We advised the 1P member that called us in the event the would want to withdraw the call. They left the decision to serve to us and expressed profound love. We chose to serve, mostly on the counsel that was given. Unfortunately, our son pulled another son down the same path. Both RMs. We have felt the judging eyes of some in our religious community. Some people that I counseled with in over 20 years of leadership callings. Others, true friends have been like Job’s friends. There was literally no one to counsel counsel with and share our sorrow while serving our mission. We had to put the game face on every day and love and train our missionaries. That brought us great joy. But still the pain was there. Those that knew from home never asked. We returned from our mission and have mostly had callings that take us out of the ward and stake. We don’t feel the same connection and community that we once had. I’ve spent a significantly amount of time studying the theology of suffering. Unfortunately, we don’t talk much about that in the church. We put on the game face and do our duty. Yet we still see or feel the eyes of judgement from time to time. But for a few close friends who are like Job’s friends. Church would be a very lonely walk. The last thing I want to hear are trite phrases that we all know. Thank you Sis. & Bro. Marsh, I hope to meet you someday.
Winn and Steve,
Thank you for this piece. I read it while my husband drove my youngest son to seminary and when he returned I read it out loud to him. The second time tears ran down my face on and on.
We have our own bags of rocks, my husband and I. We have felt separate and out of place at church for many years now, because it’s impossible for people to understand our family. Once in an interview my young stake president, whose kids are all young and healthy, asked me to tell him about my children. I tried to do that even though it’s hard to explain the many medical and emotional problems that afflict three of my five children and that take up so much of our time and energy.
Then he said something about how after I die maybe God will tell me why this happened to me. I looked at him and told him that I already know why. I said, a better question is why wouldn’t it happen to me. The world is full of suffering. There’s no reason to think I should be exempt.
I wish more of the talks at church were like yours. My heart is full of talks like yours that I am never asked to share. I am going to start writing them down and sharing them here. Thank you for being my inspiration.
Lisa Wise Shumway
I wish your spouse could come speak in our ward and give that talk! You both have been through so much. My heart is full, because you shared. Thank you!
I am really grateful for your sharing this talk. And I am grateful for this W&T community that is so thoughtful, wise, and good. David Cook, I would love to hear about what you have learned about the theology of suffering, and the sources you have found valuable.
Win
I will always love and admire you and your family. I’ll never forget you being there when I was handed my bag or rocks.
Miss you
Pam T
I wish church was more like this talk. I wish more people actually were willing to shut their mouths and just mourn with those who mourn. I with more people learned from their suffering like Win obviously has. Thanks for putting this here to share.
For all that our baptismal covenant is to mourn with those who mourn, we sure don’t do a very good job of it. We teach too much prosperity gospel, so along with that is the idea that those who suffer must deserve it. I wish the church actually taught more about how not to act like Job’s friends. How do we mourn with those who mourn? How do we get through our own suffering? Especially how do we get through our own suffering when our church community is asking us what we did or are doing to deserve it? That is why I am out of the church. Too many of my priesthood leaders assumed that if I wasn’t over what happened to me as a child, then I HAD to be doing something wrong. They failed to consider that some injuries need medical treatment or they don’t heal. So, instead of offering the needed help to heal I was blamed for not being healed from childhood abuse.
We are good as a church with helping people to repent, I guess because they do deserve their suffering and that feels good to some people. But when people don’t deserve their suffering, it scares most of us. If it can happen to them, and they are good people, then it can happen to us. And that idea is just too scary to deal with. We just don’t know how to deal with that fear. So, instead of empathy, we run away. We just don’t trust God to stay with us in suffering, and look at any suffering as if it has to be punishment, consequences of our own behavior, instead of consequences of living in a fallen world.
I know that personally, I am pretty good at helping others through what I have already been through. Ha, cause I am no longer afraid of that! Been there done that! But things I have not been through, say the death of a child or my husband, those terrify me and I am lousy at helping others through them. I want to run away. I don’t know what to say. So, I hide from the situation.
Thanks again for sharing this talk.
I really needed this today. Thank you for sharing. I’m over here multitasking, crying while typing.
““ What a terrible, awful and horrible thing to be going through.” That was the first time I felt heard and felt validated. It felt good.”
“Literally every single other card was a note about wanting to find a feeling of belonging to a community of like-minded people. It was been close to 30 years since I taught that class but those individual answers made an impression. I look at any group of people in a different way now. That one lesson taught me that we all want to belong.”
“The poor Miller now set out sadly for home. By trying to please everybody, he had pleased nobody, and lost his donkey besides.”
“We all want a sense of belonging. We all want people to know our weaknesses and problems and love us anyway. We want to be loved where we are at right now – in spite of ourselves.”
Each of these could be it’s own TED talk. So much here for me. Profound thank you for sharing.
That was so beautifully written and sincere. Thank you for sharing with us. The comments really add to the post as well. “the theology of suffering” What a thought-provoking phrase! And todd smithson’s addition: in the words of Matthew Kelley, “The mess is not the problem. The problem is our erroneous belief that everything should be immaculate, orderly, neat, tidy, and in its place. The problem occurs when we try to live as if it isn’t so.”
Much to ponder here.
Just like to add my thanks for a deeply touching sermon to everyone elses.
I just found this – so beautiful. Thank you for sharing this beautiful talk. We need more talks lik this in church.
I just found this – so beautiful. Thank you for sharing this beautiful talk. We need more talks lik this in church.
I just found this – so beautiful. Thank you for sharing this beautiful talk. We need more talks like this in church.