If we actually shopped religions, would the LDS Church win on the quality of its worship services?
Would it win on services it provides its members?
Does it provide adequate religious education?
Does it reach out in Christian service to the extended world?
Would it win on the social and community front?
Do individuals feel like they have improved and grown due to the institutional church?
Is our community supportive or are people pigeonholed and judged?
Questions by Old Man
I had a completely different post planned but reading the comments I thought these were good questions.
I’m curious how each of our readers would answer those questions.
Wheat & Tares 
Interesting questions that most don’t cognitively think about. I’ll start with the positive: Yes, you can grow and improve through the church. One’s spiritually/religious knowledge can grow as you learn, though the church has set a low bar so those are limited unless you seek beyond the basics that are offered. That said, if you start out with zero knowledge, you will learn. IMO, the biggest areas of growth are through leadership opportunities, public speaking, event planning, and things like that. These are practical skills that are useful in all aspects of life.
Sadly, the rest of the questions do not have a positive answer. Services are mind numbingly boring for the most part. Yes, there is an occasional speaker who is engaging and thought provoking, but for most, that is the exception, not the rule. Look around at all the people who are asleep, on their phones, reading a book, preparing a lesson, interacting with their children – doing anything at all to pass the time except being engaged. Sacrament meeting is boring and torture for parents. For a family-centered church, they completely ignore children when it comes to the “worship” part of the day.
Services to members? Certainly the church has the system in place for food support, financial support, and employment counseling, so technically these are wonderful services available. But there is no guarantee of accessing food or finances which can be a debasing, probing, and judgemental process. Employment services, whether counseling or training, are run by volunteers – enough said.
Adequate religious education? If you’re striving for the basics, yes. However, for a faith that claims the fullness of the gospel it is surprising how reluctant the church is to adopt the extensive scholarship available on a variety of religious aspects, particularly the bible. Joseph Smith “translated” the bible, so they have to stick with that even if it is known to be incorrect with further research.
Reach out with Christian service to the world? Yes they do, and I give credit where credit is due. The big “but” though is that they have incredible resources to do SO MUCH more and they don’t. A 40 million dollar donation sounds pretty big, but it’s only a drop in the bucket of what they could do. The church has the resources to make life-changing differences around the world, but they dole out a pittance here and there, sometimes only in response to an emergency or as a distraction from bad press.
Social/community front? That’s a big no. Whoever had the idea to make every activity have some kind of spiritual/priesthood purpose killed any fun to be had at any time. I used to occasionally go to an activity, not because I was excited about it, but more that I felt guilted into “supporting” it. On a more serious note, the LBGTQ stance of the church is hateful and alienating.
Supportive/pigeon-holed and judged? NOT supportive. IF you are part of the ideal family unit: husband AND wife with children, active, reliable, financially stable, and say the correct things then you are supported and part of the base group. IF you fail at any aspect – you are part of the outer ring and members quite frankly don’t know what to do with you and you will languish on the fringe until you get with the program. I speak from experience and it’s easy to find your fellow fringe members. It’s been fascinating to watch former inner circle members have something in their life happen where they become relegated to the fringe. It’s an eye-opening experience for them and more than once I’ve heard the comment “I had no idea what it was like in this situation”. Welcome to the land of the invisible. The entire premise of the church is about the eternal family and if you don’t check the boxes, there really isn’t a welcome place for you.
I’m in the deep South in a town of 25k.
-First Baptist has a strong community, preaches believers’ baptism, offers many different adult study classes that interest me, serves the community, has PEWS, has a preschool, and even has a climbing wall in the their gym.
-The big Methodist church has a preschool and sponsors the main mental health counseling center.
-Holy Trinity Episcopal hosts a music conservancy, sponsors the community orchestra and choirs, and brings in classical performers from around the region (including smaller portions of the state symphony). I’ve heard their children’s ministry is lacking, so my Episcopal friend attends the neighboring diocese 30 miles away.
-Big non-denominational hosts organizations like MOPS (moms of preschoolers) and lets my Girl Scout troop meet there, and occasionally camp on their property, free of charge just because one of our troop leaders is a member.
-Medium non-denominational has a monthly food pantry that I see huge lines for. They host a free summer Music and Arts kids’ camp that my kids LOVE.
-Three Catholic churches in town. Knights of Columbus are active. The Catholic school is excellent.
Those are the big players in town. My kids went to a Methodist-Protestant daycare (not to be confused with United Methodist or AME). This being the south, there are several more Baptist churches, Methodist, Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, etc.
What we offer that others don’t: Hurricane/Tornado cleanup crews are activated a few times a year. High school seminary. Otherwise they all have us beat on religious education, youth programs, and community service. Several churches contribute greatly to the main community food pantry and parenting resource center; we don’t as a church (though individuals do as individuals).
I’ll give an amen to familywomens comments. The church does do some positive good. I believe I learned a lot of beneficial life skills growing up in the church. As a child and teen church also provided a lot of my activities and fun experiences. As an adult, I. honestly don’t get anything really. When my children were very young I realized I wasn’t learning anything and wasn’t really being “fed” so to speak. It’s been said on this blog ad infinitum but it’s true that for someone who has already mastered primary level gospel learning you can go the rest of your life and learn nothing at church. I don’t understand it but I have just decided to accept that I’m not there for me.I feel fortunate that I have a lot of opportunities for learning and growth outside the church and my social needs are also met outside the church. I try to use the ministering program as a way to practice following Jesus.
Chances are, your local YMCA is probably doing a much better job on every one of these criteria in your community than the COJCOLDS is.
I recently had a private conversation with my now-former bishop about these deficiencies in the Church. He would probably never say this over the pulpit, but he essentially admitted that if you are depending on the Church to edify you spiritually, enrich/improve your life, and serve the temporal needs of the community, you are going to be constantly disappointed, and that those things are an individual’s responsibility to figure out, not the Church’s. That’s the whole point of the “home-centered, Church-supported” shift, he said. I was a bit dumbfounded, because he was the same guy who for years harped on how essential and non-negotiable Church attendance is, echoing Pres. Nelson’s “sad heaven” and “covenant path” rhetoric. Though it makes sense with the Church’s current temple-building spree that it seems like they want to get out of the business of being in people’s day-to-day lives and instead shift our focus to temple ordinances. Temples may be nice to look at and often boost local property values, but they offer almost nothing of real value to their respective communities, nor do they solve any real problems.
If we actually shopped religions, would the LDS Church win on the quality of its worship services?
No. Not even close. Our worship services are almost tangibly boring.
Would it win on services it provides its members?
Maybe. We do service very well when we do service. Except we don’t do service enough.
Does it provide adequate religious education?
No. Which is especially sad given how voluminous our religious education is. High quantity; low quality. We pass on correlated facts quite well, and, in the process, leave our membership unequipped to confront hard questions.
Does it reach out in Christian service to the extended world?
A bit. Not nearly enough.
Would it win on the social and community front?
It used to. For some reason, we’re doing everything on our power to diminish this.
Do individuals feel like they have improved and grown due to the institutional church?
Yes, but generally, the individuals who feel that way are often deluding themselves, as they have the illusion of accomplishment for checking off all the boxes.
Is our community supportive or are people pigeonholed and judged?
Yes to both.
If we shopped our religion, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be the Walmart of religions. First, look at the architecture, a big box providing worship and recreation as opposed to groceries and dry goods. Second, there would be something for everyone but no depth to anything just like the large inventory of different kinds of products but limited selection of any one product. You get the major brands Heitz and Hunts Ketchup along with the store brand. In the church, its major Christian values are adopted from Evangelical religions with the church brand of a living prophet for any big differences. (You could have a whole essay on how things we think are unique LDS tenants are in found/shared with other Evangelical religions, like the Ten Tribes, Family Values, or even our view of a God-inspired Constituion). Third, the church in the Intermountain West, particularly in small towns, is the only option for religious fellowship. Kind of like how Walmart in small-town USA is also the only real shopping choice. Fourth, the church has displaced religion among Native Americans and Walmart has displaced businesses in communities. Finally, they both are extremely rich yet only share their wealth in ways that benefit the name of the institution and not necessarily the ones that make the institution possible. The low wages of Walmart and the volunteer clergy and even cleaning of the buildings.
Family woman – very good summary of how the church does in the given areas. I’ve heard Terryl Givens on a few occasions, somewhat facetiously, but not really, suggest that one of the main reason people are leaving the Church is because they are “Bored”.
I think the Church began with a premise, that is not unique, but set them up for failure. To claim that the Church is “The one and only true Church”, is both arrogant and reductionist. The amount of epistemic humility within the Church is so mind-numbingly low that, in any other organizational endeavor, we would be accused of being nothing more than a propaganda machine. Instead of stating a hypothesis and then allowing the experiment to deliver whatever it might, the LDS church trapped itself in the corner by stating its conclusion first, and now conducts the experiment in a way to ensure the data confirms their conclusion. The problem is, the Prophet, seers and revelators failed to see the challenge the internet would bring. And why would you ever be open to more when you believe you have all that there is to know. And I know, we throw around some platitudes here and there to make certain that we aren’t perceived as complete anti-progress, but in essence the Church subscribes to, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. And we won’t fix anything until their is enough social agitation to do so.
I find it most annoying to sit through Sunday School and Elders Quorum meetings where we read scripture like these people were ancient Mormons. Ben Cremer succinctly summarized a major problem with Christianity, he said; “Christianity should look like questions seeking answers, instead of answers that aren’t able to be questioned”.
We, as Richard Rohr stated about the LDS church to Jana Reiss, he said; the Mormon church is really quite good at the first half of life, but you have almost NO second half of life. Our attention to adult spiritual development is hiding somewhere in a lonely LDS chapel closet, begging. please let me out, I promise if you give me a chance, I can breathe some life back into these stale, and dead second hour meetings.
I live in a very predominantly LDS portion of Utah’s Wasatch Front, so I have limited adult experience with or exposure to other faith approaches. The family I grew up in was largely either never or former Mormon, so my foundational experiences were more mixed, but as I’ve gotten older my experience has gotten narrower. So this evaluation is very personal to me, with few broader implications.
If we actually shopped religions, would the LDS Church win on the quality of its worship services?
I’m a music lover, totally believing the scripture that says “the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me.” I don’t believe that worship music has to be “performed” at a professional level. I’m completely willing to suspend the standards I have for concerts by trained musicians. But I so miss getting the joy of worshiping through music in our services! Music is gradually disappearing. Also, my experience is that we think reverence means we can’t have joy in our worship.
Would it win on services it provides its members?
Does it reach out in Christian service to the extended world?
Mixed bag as to whether we provide good service to or from members. I think part of the problem is that we want service to be a “one and done” activity. We’re not not really interested in getting involved in long term projects that need sustained commitment. Of course, we also have the reality that needing to receive service conflicts with our self-reliance focus. However, we do value giving service. I’m trying to do better on an individual level.
Also, those of us with gay family members usually have extensive first hand experience of the opposite of service TO its members.
Does it provide adequate religious education?
This question is very interesting to me. I think most members for most of their lives would answer with a resounding yes. We have lots of classes and are encouraged to study the scriptures regularly. It took me a long time to recognize and admit that I wasn’t actually studying the scriptures. For dedicated, believing members, it’s also a very big step to move outside the standard church sources to find more meat. I do recognize that the Church faces a huge challenge in designing religious education that works for me who wants more meat as well as for the members who need the foundational knowledge and the members who fairly frankly just want to feel good about what they already believe. And somehow doing all of that in faith affirming ways. Not easy! (Pre Covid, one of our gospel doctrine classes had self-sorted into being for the not easy gospel answers members. It has not revived, and I miss it.)
Would it win on the social and community front?
Not for me. I can’t speak for others.
Do individuals feel like they have improved and grown due to the institutional church?
The Church provided the foundation on which I have grown. At this point, I feel like most of my personal growth happens outside the formal Church organization, but I’m not sure how I would have gotten to this point without the Church upon which to build.
Is our community supportive or are people pigeonholed and judged?
My experience is that we are pigeonholed and judged. However, it has been very interesting to me to slowly discover that many people with many different beliefs and values feel judged and unwelcome. The feeling of being judged unacceptable is being expressed from the most conservative to the most progressive. (Using this as a shorthand method of expressing the range of values that seem to feel this way, rather than as a meaningful description of those values.) At this point, I’m rather curious as to who actually does feel comfortable and accepted at church. I am beginning to think the proportion of members for whom this is working might be much smaller than most of us recognize.
Summary: I have been a faithful, committed member of the Church throughout my life. I still am. I find the institutional Church to be much less fulfilling than in the past. I can’t tell you if that is because I have changed or because the Church has changed. Probably some of both. I’d love to have the Church allow more flexibility to meet the needs of different types of members. I don’t know if I would choose the Church or not if I were shopping from scratch. However, at this point I’m not leaving despite very real frustrations and challenges.
PWS, you aren’t wrong that we’ve lost music.. no Sunday school hymn practice, no RS music time, and no RS opening and closing hymns.. they’ve all gone.
So.. community? It doesn’t work well in the UK in my experience. Lives are busier than they used to be, and chapels are often not conveniently placed for easy access via public transport. Sorting out lifts can be very trying, and time consuming. I don’t drive and if I were to get to a daytime RS activity I would need to use two buses. The time this would take getting there and back has in my experience not been worth the effort, as so few people go, and I don’t enjoy the social aspect. Just this weekend there’s a stake RS picnic in the neighbouring city.. and I gather there are several sisters in my ward who want to attend but have no transport, but there isn’t anyone with transport planning to attend. As a child we used to walk miles to attend the various activities at our local chapel. I don’t know how my parents did it!
Compare this to Baptist in-laws in a different neighbouring city. The church building is in the city centre, readily accessible by public transport. The church is open during the week running a cafe, and various drop in activities. They volunteer as street pastors for which relevant mental health training is provided.. they employ someone to run the building.
Similarly a Methodist church in a nearby town runs a cafe, drop in sessions, youth activities (girls’ brigade, boys’ brigade), a church orchestra, which accompanies the services…
The one consistent service our church provides is the family history centres, which isn’t nothing for sure.
Worship services? Talks have been pretty good recently, thankfully. None of this assigned conference talk rubbish.
Lessons? The curriculum stinks. There is no learning. It just seems to be all “fluffy feel-goods” which leave me cold and irritable. In the name of building unity the powers that be appear to have decided that crushing the sisters into a cramped classroom is a fantastic idea! I lasted all of five minutes before I fled…
Fascinating questions. Agree with HokieKate; I’m in a slightly larger southern town and it’s quite similar. All of the other local churches are much more involved in community (and community building), have more and better educational and church facilities, and are much more outer facing and far less insular than the local Mormon church I attend. I also agree with Instereo. As someone whose religious faith is rapidly dwindling, I find very little depth, profundity or complexity in today’s Mormon Church. Also, as another sort of Walmart thing, IMHO there’s a strong desire in the Mormon Church (esp. in the missionary program) to just get people in the door, try to get them baptized, try to get members to stick around, but all of the efforts are superficial and completely lacking in nuance or thoughtfulness. I realize that I’m an intellectual and an educator and that my perspective therefore contains certain biases, but I find it staggeringly backwards that we try to supply the most shallow, simple answers to folks who are either struggling or merely seeking a deeper faith experience. I mean, we talk all the time about the “importance” of eternal marriage, covenants, etc., but then we just try to either rush people through those processes or we try to stifle or silence their doubts with the most inane and banal platitudes that I’ve ever heard utter. And our community absolutely pigeonholes and judges anyone who doesn’t toe or live the party line. Conformity is far more important in this church than respect for everyone’s individual journey.
One of the biggest reasons for what is lacking in the LDS church compared with many other churches: Paid vs. unpaid clergy.
DOES THE LDS CHURCH WIN ON THE QUALITY OF ITS WORSHIP SERVICES? That’s a resounding no. Services are usually bone-itchingly boring, rehashing mediocre conference talks. Music has gone downhill for years. It is rarely inspirational. And too often the podium serves as a rameumpton.
WOULD IT WIN ON SERVICES IT PROVIDES ITS MEMBERS? Actually, I think it does pretty well when it comes to critical items like help in an emergency, but not on the daily and on-going needs (see comments upthread how other churches provide needed community services).
DOES IT PROVIDE ADEQUATE RELIGIOUS EDUCATION? It provides lots of educational time (SS, Primary, RS, YW, quorums, seminary, institute, the current version of family home evening). But once you’ve completed the ABCs, …not much in deepening understanding. You have to go elsewhere.
DO INDIVIDUALS FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE IMPROVED AND GROWN DUE TO THE INSTITUTIONAL CHURCH? As was mentioned by Familywomen and others, there are useful things you can learn, mostly through various callings. From a young age, children can experience giving a talk, communal prayer, bolstering their language skills through scripture reading etc. Church activity gives people chances to serve others in various ways, potentially creating bonds and developing talents. It can lay a foundation for gaining spiritual knowledge. Unfortunately, if you are reliable and capable, you can easily end up burned-out from too many callings and assignments.
IS OUR COMMUNITY SUPPORTIVE OR ARE PEOPLE PIGEONHOLED AND JUDGED? Yes and yes. There is support, community, IF you fit in socially and at least appear “all in.” Because of all the harmful rhetoric of why people “wander” and are “lost”, and the call for “exact obedience” those all- in don’t quite know what to do with someone “Mormoning” their own way. And as has been said, once you are not in the safe inner circle, you become invisible or a ward council project.
My answers to these questions would vary greatly depending on what time in my life (and in the ongoing life of the Church) I answered it, so I’ll try to indicate some directional movement in my answers:
1) If we actually shopped religions, would the LDS Church win on the quality of its worship services? It definitely depends on the competition, and personally I’m not in the market, but based on what non-members I know who have attended ours and others, we don’t even come close. The others have a lot more to offer. Ours are boring as hell and lacking in energy, spirituality, and warmth. The one bright spot for ours (and it really is for many is that congregants vs. pastors give the talks, but as members we all know that’s a mixed bag).
2) Would it win on services it provides its members? Only in theory, definitely not in practice.
3) Does it provide adequate religious education? Better than Evangelicals and other “sola scriptura” sects, but not by much. It is getting much worse over the last few years at encouraging people to actually follow Christ’s teachings and to make good moral choices, instead telling them to just do as they are told by authority figures.
4) Does it reach out in Christian service to the extended world? Yes, but not as much as it could.
5) Would it win on the social and community front? It used to be great at this, but other faiths are simply much better at it, and the Church has mostly quit doing this at all.
6) Do individuals feel like they have improved and grown due to the institutional church? In the way that going to elementary school helped me to improve and grow. At some point, there’s diminishing return, and that point was a long time ago.
7) Is our community supportive or are people pigeonholed and judged? Can depend a lot on the local ward, but since the anti-LGBTQ hatred and political polarization has gotten worse, the norm now is pretty bad. When you teach people that Jesus requires cruelty, the people who embrace that message are emboldened in their worst impulses.
NP, I agree and would add, paid janitors, paid youth program instructors, and a few other paid positions. Excluded in that is trained clergy. Clergy from other denominations have training in theology, and in counseling. We expect volunteers to do all the things a full time paid clergy do, and they just can’t.
Why are meetings so boring? Amateurs attempting to give the sermons.
Why is community outreach so poor? Amateurs who have to devote 40 hours a week to paid employment and have families and just don’t have time to run any kind of community outreach.
Why is our youth program so poor? Amateurs trying to run a program with no training. Oh, the D&C says the bishop is over the Aronic priesthood, so let’s put the bishop of the full ward in charge of that *too*. Why did the scouting program fail, because it was assigned to parents of boys who were not interested in scouting? So, let’s replace it with the nothing the YW have been doing all along.
Why is support so bad? Because all the volunteers are already overbooked, overworked and burned out.
Why are we so judgmental of each other? Because we all over worked, undertrained, and feel way inadequate and insecure, so we judge others to help hold up our own fragile egos.
The bottom line is Mormons try to run a church on the cheap, with everyone undertrained, overworked, burned out, and failing in our callings even though we give it our very best. Our very best just isn’t good enough to make up for the lack of trained, full time, professionals. A church like a business can only cut corners to save money to a certain point, then the quality of the product goes down.
Does the church provide its members with everything they need to get on the high road to eternal life?
Yes.
Sorry to not respond to the questions directly but this is what it boils down to for me. The one thing I wanted from the church when I was still attending was an honest conversation. I was not able to find a space anywhere in the church where that could happen. There was very little tolerance for the hard questions and little desire for accepting reality. The whole thing is too narrative based, too willing to accept fanaticism, and too eager to promote a wishful view of the world. I personally can’t justify getting on board with any positive outreach the church might make while they are still peddling false narratives which I know are damaging. I will not ever again subject myself to any human claiming to know the mind and will of God.
Jack – I applaud you for coming here to offer a contrasting view, I think Walter Lippman’s 1939 paper, “The Indispensable Opposition”, rings true in my head every time I disagree with someone.
With that said, I’m very curious from your post above how you define Eternal life and what’s necessary to achieve it. Thanks for your engagement.
Jack,
Are there other roads to eternal life? Or are there other paths and the LDS Church just the first-class luxury suite to exaltation? Are all Latter-day Saints equal, or are some better than others? Do some LDS members receive benefits that others do not regardless of “worthiness?” Will Gandhi or Mother Teresa possess less “exaltation” in the hereafter than the average LDS person? Do LDS people need quality worship services, instruction and opportunities to serve or are those things unimportant? Have the LDS people given up on building an inclusive Zion? It seems to me that they have.
The Church program worked very well for me and it worked well enough for my children. The program is weakening and I am concerned it will prove ever less beneficial to families.
Anna hits the bullseye: The church is too cheap. The reason for the cheapness is the church has been taken over by lawyers and accountants and financiers. The MBA mentality is to do more with less, to get higher efficiency so “capital” can be used to expand the business. This means cutting to the bare minimum what the legacy operation consumes.
And boy do we see the cutting! Perfect example of this is the church dropping scouts. There are valid reasons for the church stepping away from BSA. But notice that the church advertised a replacement youth program but they have not provided the money for that new program! We know the church spent millions on scouting. This was money in support of a youth program that despite criticism was successful in providing young men opportunities for growth and learning. Then boom! No more scouts and no actual program for young men.
In general we see the cheapness of the church in how it does so little to train leaders. What the church calls “leadership training” is an embarrassment. The church is very good at going through the motions. It is inept at recognizing failure and acting to correct it.
Someone commented, perhaps to a different post, that the church is too wealthy and a consequence of this wealth the corporate church is no longer dependent on the church members for funds. This is the reality! We have a church leadership that now sees the lay church as a financial burden. Their answer is to cut and trim ever more from what the lay church has and does.
The special problem I see with the LDS church is the leadership at the top is too insulated from what is happening on the ground. The organization is dominated by yes men and yes women, especially so with the area authorities. And so solutions are always the same. More consolidation and control at the top with vain words to console the membership who feel something is wrong but are powerless to address it.
All things being equal, the Church is about as good or better than other religions on the social front.
LDS religious education, however, is dismal. The infantilization of the congregation by the high-minded elitism of the institution is undeniable. Our religious education has become gimmicky, shallow, and driven by behavioral management. Leadership seems to think they can produce generic, Reader’s Digest-style pep talks that stir emotion, in order to control behavior. The “Come Follow Me” manuals tell you how to think and feel about scriptures taken out of context. It is the strongest evidence that leadership lacks inspiration.
The CES is responsible for the general feeding of the flock—which is scattered and starved. The CES is a paid clergy of ravenous wolves. I have first-hand experience with CES wolves at BYUH (at the ecclesiastical and administrative level): boldface liars, bearers of false witness, bureaucratically corrupt, full of unrighteous dominion. I never could have imagined the calculated evil I witnessed by professors Aaron Shumway, Matthew Bowen, Rebecca Strain, James Faustino, and a few cowardly administrators I won’t name. Absolute corruption at BYUH.
Todd and Anon,
I think these verses from Section 76 set forth in a clear and succinct manner is required in order to receive eternal life:
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
That said, being the near universalist that I am–I believe that everyone will have ample opportunity to “overcome by faith.” And so, while it’s my opinion that the vast majority of people will not be able to resist the love of God forever–that’s not to say that it doesn’t matter in the long run which path we take. End the end there’s only one way to return to the Father–and that’s by following the Savior through the process set forth in the above verses.
Travis,
You know that I’ve enjoyed reading some of your comments–but I’ve gotta disagree with you on your last comment. What you’re saying is purely subjective–and I wouldn’t be surprised if hundreds or even thousands of folks out there could give a glowing positive report of their experience working and studying with the faculty you mention above.
Disciple writes: “Anna hits the bullseye: The church is too cheap. The reason for the cheapness is the church has been taken over by lawyers and accountants and financiers.” Couldn’t agree more. Why? It seems to be all about risk avoidance–to decrease risk of lawsuits, we eliminate all programs and activities. We need to manage risk, not avoid it, but the lawyers have won the day. One wouldn’t let lawyers run Ford Motor Company, or make decisions for a football team, or run a daycare business. They should advise leaders, but good leaders sometimes need to disregard their attorneys, who by nature want to avoid risk instead of manage it.
Travis, I don’t know anything about the people that you named, but I wholeheartedly agree that our religious education is dismally poor, due largely to CES and to the curriculum people (who are also CES people). Come to Sunday School and what do you often hear at the beginning? “What did you find interesting in this week’s reading?” We might never read a single verse, but people might share what they felt, and we call that “Teaching in the Savior’s Way” or “Teaching as the Savior Taught.” Sorry, but in the 4 gospels and 3 Nephi, I see nowhere where Jesus arrived on scene and asked the people how they felt about some passage of scripture, or how they were feeling about anything at all. He taught the people with power, and not as the scribes taught. We have scribes today, the professional teachers in CES, but also those who cite other leaders consistently instead of making the scriptures come alive. Jesus never said that this learnèd Pharisee said this, and that learnèd scribe said that. He taught the two disciples on the road to Emmaus about what the scriptures said about Him, not what this or that esteemed Pharisee had said about the scriptures, and their hearts burned as they heard His teaching.
@Jack, the faculty at BYUH is made up of some of the best professors I’ve ever come across. No question. Many, many good Latter-Day Saints.
But at the end of the day, the BYUH administration and a few professors in the Religious Education Department are unquestionably corrupt and mock the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. My comment is not subjective: the exercise of righteous dominion is objective. The problem with good LDS men like yourself is that you lack the courage to be honest: if institutional corruption harms the congregation, good Latter-Day Saints need to call it out. It is the duty of royal king-priests to “speak for those who cannot speak.” The fraternal culture of a priesthood, who censor, collude, and combine to persecute or cast out other saints for speaking out is not of God. This culture runs from the Strengthening Church Membership Committee, to the CES. If a fellow LDS is censored and cast out for speaking uncomfortable truth, and nobody is willing to right-the-wrong, unrighteous dominion wins.
Jonathan Green and Chad Nielson at Times & Seasons are cut from the same fabric—they will censor a faithful comment if it rubs their sensitivities, regardless of truth. Unrighteous dominion pollutes the priesthood. It’s our responsibility to right-the-wrong. I applaud folks here at wheatandtares for being willing to engage and communicate openly—it represents the kind of culture advocated by beloved Elder Henry B. Eyring, apostle of the Lord, who encourages openness and argumentation and a culture where the primary aim is to seek truth:
Georgis,
The Lord spoke with authority because he is God–he has the final word. In the Book of Mormon we have prophets quoting prophets as well as teaching from their own lights. It is appropriate to quote both the scriptures and the living prophets when teaching the gospel–plus wisdom from beyond that circle when it is appropriate. Now if all we’re doing is quoting scholars (when teaching the gospel) then something’s wrong. But that’s not my experience in the church.
Travis: “…if institutional corruption harms the congregation, good Latter-Day Saints need to call it out.”
First you have to prove that the institution is hurting its own. I don’t see it.
The institution, though perhaps limited by the weakness of its leaders and congregants, has help millions of people get their feet on the path that leads to eternal life. Now perhaps it has not done as well with some of the more “peripheral” elements of building the Kingdom–such as educating the saints and so forth. Even so it isn’t the church’s job to make theologians or historians or even scriptorians of its members. Its primary duty is to teach and preach the gospel. The church is far more interested in building faith than it is in teaching facts. And a faithful people will–generally speaking–search the scriptures. But even so, they will do it to enrich their lives with gospel knowledge–the kind of knowledge the brings transformation. And so, in that sense, CES does a good job of utilizing the scriptures as wellspring of living knowledge–the kind of knowledge that produces faith and builds testimony.
There are too many smart people criticizing the church’s efforts in teaching the gospel. And in my opinion it ought to be a simple thing to understand what the primary objectives of the Kingdom are. And one of them is to help us understand what we need to do to inherit eternal life. And among the things that we need to do–becoming a scholar is nowhere to be found. And for those who disagree–you show me a better way to get on the high road to eternal life than by the means that the church both teaches and provides.
@Jack,
If you cannot see that the corrupt culture of the institution harms the congregation, it only proves that your loyalty to the institution takes precedent over your loyalty to the congregation. It’s a common position of LDS, who worship power and authority of men. As for me, my loyalty is to the congregation and to the Brethren.
After witnessing the actions of corrupt BYUH Religious Education professors and administrators, I can resolutely testify of the collective dishonesty. I have it documented. I wish it weren’t so, I never would have imagined it, except that I experienced it. Many opportunities were presented to right the wrong, but instead, cover-up and damage control was employed, false witness borne. The administration was more concerned with protecting itself from legal fallout and litigation than with simple restitution. Shameful behavior, unbecoming of Latter-Day Saints, no way around it. Lord rebuke them.
Jack, you missed my point. When talking about how the scribes taught, by referring to each other rather than to the scriptures, I was not talking about constantly citing scholars. I was talking about our pattern of quoting general authorities all over the place. Elder x said this and Elder y said that. Very nice, and sometimes very helpful and appropriate, but that doesn’t make the scriptures burn within our hearts. What do you think it means when we read that Jesus taught with authority and power, and not as the scribes? I think it meant citing contemporary religious leaders and knowing all what they said, but not teaching from the deep well of truth that is the scriptures. I think that focusing on what contemporary leaders say, if that is as far as we go (and that is true for many members) is too shallow. Maybe it is enough, but I don’t think that it gives enough foundation to withstand trials. Follow the prophet is part of the gospel, but in some quarters it is almost the whole gospel, and I respectfully do not think that that is healthy. Follow the prophet, and only the current prophet, focuses us on the what-to-do, instead of on the why. If people can figure out the why, they will then figure out the what on their own. That is where real spiritual growth can come.