Today, we have a new guest post from Faith:
Obedience brings blessings
In my youth, I was taught Ammon and Aaron, from the Book of Mormon, were one of the greatest missionary companionships. They served the Lord and the people. They baptized the King and all his household. Ammon and Aaron were the missionary role models. We were told, If we, as missionaries, worked harder, sacrificed more, repented of our sins and had more faith that we would, also, baptize thousands. We were also taught, “I, the Lord, am bound when you do what I say; but when you do not what I say, ye have no promise.” (1) and “There is a strong correlation between personal worthiness and success in the mission field. Prospective missionaries must properly repent of past sins before entering the mission field. (2) The unsaid was, if you are not baptizing more, it is your own fault.
I served a mission during the historical convert peak of 1990. We worked hard, my companions and I, and were literally 100% obedient. However, the more we baptized, it was never enough, and the mission office always wanted more. We rarely baptized the 9-year-olds, but I saw many companionships who did. We watched 90% of the new converts go inactive within 1-month of conversion. The church system abandoned them, pressing for more baptisms. There would be an occasional hyperbole article/talk on retaining converts, but with minimal wherewithal and then blaming us for the new inactivity. Even as a young, inexperienced 19-year-old, I saw the institutional problems. It broke my heart. I lived with cognitive dissonance which was accompanied with fluctuating sadness, depression, frustration, and anger. We were not Ammon, but we could have not done more than we did. I believed, if only SLC knew they would fix it. We just had a rogue Mission President. If I ever had the chance to let SLC know of what was happening, or better yet to be in a calling in my future to run the system as it should be, I would. At the time I tried to explain this to my RM father, but he did not experience this on his 3-year mission in 1960. The New Era had not yet arrived in his mission. He did not understand but was empathetic. (He was a companion with Henry Moyle’s son) The mission changed me, and thousands like me, traumatized for decades. Over the years, I learned I was not alone, and this problematic system started 30 years prior to my mission. It was not my mission solely; it became baked into the institution. The infamous baseball baptism program was the forerunner to my mission experiences.
Baseball Baptisms
To explain the origins of the baseball baptism problem in brief. Henry Moyle was in the First Presidency. He indebted the church financially. He wanted to build more chapels instead of renting locales. He wanted more converts to occupy the seats. The rush to baptize was accompanied with the establishment of baptism quotas for missionaries and memorized missionary discussions. Baseball baptism and its derivatives were preached from the pulpit. The apostles, at the time, were largely opposed to these changes. Moyle was relieved of his responsibilities in the missionary department, but the system and variations of it stayed in place and continue to the present. If you want to really understand the issue, I strongly encourage you to start with these sources.
https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/093-30-44.pdf
https://www.cumorah.com/articles/ldsGrowthCaseStudies/476
https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/mormon-stories-101-103-dr-ted-lyon-on-change-mission-in-latin-america-and-thoughtful-faith/
Celestial Companionship
Quentin Cook arrived at the London, England mission in September 1960. The LDS Church had just dropped the missionary age for young men to 19. Cook was one of the last 20-year-old missionaries. Jeff Holland arrived a few weeks later in London, as one of the first 19-year-old missionaries. Cook is actually 3 months older than Holland (3). They were companions. Their first mission President was T. Bowring Woodbury. Their 2nd Mission President was Marion Hanks, who later became a GA. I find it interesting that most the church articles about their missions emphasize Hanks as their mission president, with minimal mention of Woodbury. At the time, Woodbury was one of the big proponents of baseball baptism. He wanted to be promoted to a General Authority office. A few months prior to their mission, the first UK stake was created and quickly the number of UK missions grew to four. By 1963, four more stakes were also added in the UK. In 1962, their mission produced 12,000 converts alone (4) . As a mission they were baptizing enough to create 6 stakes a year, “más o menos”, but it never happened. Cook and Holland were participants in the New Era of baseball baptisms.
In church publications Cook and Holland praise each other for their historic missions. They called each other “the best missionary of our generation.” “There was no harder-working missionary ever.” “He had tremendous success, even legendary success.” (3) There is no public data on how many people they personally baptized, however it is documented the church had mission competitions among missions and companionships (4) Numbers aside, where are their stories, if they were one of the best missionary companionships of their generation? Holland has an academic background as a teacher. They have the pulpit every 6 months. Instead of sharing half-truth faith promoting stories (5), they should share their own of which they would personally know all the facts and teach us. We know the story of Ammon. We know about Dan Jones (6) Having their details, may allow us to be better missionaries. However, the rare comment we receive is about Holland praising Cook, with Cook praising Holland.
One story we get from Cook is about Dr. Ebeid Sarofim, not a baseball baptism statistic. He was not one of Cook’s own investigators, but he tells the story of Sarofim’s baptism tied to the Book of Mormon. (7) What is not shared is that Dr. Ebeid Sarofim was engaged in polygamous marriage when he was baptized and living with his one of his polygamous wives in London. This was 70 years after the 1890 Manifesto. He apparently received special permission to violate the Manifesto. (8,9) Dr. Sarofim was even a noted guest at the April 1962 General Conference.(10) We can only assume that Cook and Holland baptized many of the young men, who were soon to be excommunicated (4). Holland and Cook, two future apostles, based on the promises of obedience, worthiness, and hard work must have baptized thousands.
Michael Quinn also served his mission in England, also under Marion Hanks. Quinn started his mission in 1963. (6). However, Michael Quinn gave us the truth of the baseball baptism experience and then as a leader, he shined light on the actual history.
Double Speak
Today Cook and Holland continue to push an agenda of baptizing and church growth. They scare and shame youth into possibly ruining their lives if they come home early or do not serve. (11) Elder Holland taught: “Missionaries sometimes become so preoccupied with the ordinance of baptism as their purpose that they may slide over effectively teaching the preliminary gospel principles that prepare for baptism as well as why baptism is absolutely essential.” and “ Teach every step on the path of salvation or you may find your friends unprepared to take the big step of baptism.” and finally “Baptism is not primarily for the purpose of joining the Church but rather comes after faith and repentance.” Some missionaries will arrive in the field eager to take on the world and convert thousands. (12)
Does this sound familiar? Has the baseball baptism culture changed or is it just softer and less noticeable? Who is responsible for the preoccupation of baptism? Where do missionaries get the “wonderful zeal” that they will convert thousands ?
Ongoing Missionary Pressure Sentiment
Today Cook and Holland have the reins of the church in their hands. They experienced the numbers game on their missions. However, there is still a culture of statistics and guilt under their leadership in 2023. The following are anonymous excerpts from former a recently released missionary and an investigator found online:
Obviously the Q15 want both quality converts AND high baptisms but they must know the problems when trying to push unrealistic goals will not produce both. They must know that the rates of conversion can’t possibly increase too much more than they get. I get they probably think you have to push them to get them to work harder but if you push mission presidents and mission presidents TOO hard to produce unrealistic numbers, its simply going to backfire. Are they really that clueless? I feel like there is a disconnect between the Q15 and realistic expectation of convert potential and what it’s really like “on the ground.” I can’t help but wonder how involved Jeff was in these practices. His missionary work is far different from today’s missionary work. His missionary work was exciting to him because they had tangible results due to the perpetuation of unethical sales tactics and persuasion. Our depressing form of missionary work requires persuasion (we like to say it does) with the actual theology, which provides zero results and an empty feeling of neglect from those missionaries who pedal the message. Jeff’s perception of missionary work is likely corrupt. (13)
So, I met the church this year and since then I’ve been questioned a lot to be baptized and became a member of the church. I don’t believe 100% in the BoM and I struggle to believe in somethings. I don’t think I’m ready to be baptized but missionaries and some members are always talking about that and in their perspective, I should take the risk right now even if I’m not sure about it. I know it’s their job to do that but I think it’s too much for me……and were saying that is time for me to make a decision. They were saying that it’s useless for me to take sacrament because I’m not baptized and I’m no longer visiting, it’s time to become a member. They were comparing missionaries with Jesus and were telling that I wouldn’t refuse an invite of Jesus so I shouldn’t refuse missionaries’ invite, because in the end of the day they are representants of Jesus. (14)
Discussion
Was the Cook / Holland companionship historical?
What are your thoughts on their participation in baseball baptisms?
What have they done, now 60 years later, when in a decision-making capacity to improve the system?
Sources:
- Doctrine and Covenants 82:10
- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/missionary-preparation-student-manual/chapter-2-personal-worthiness?lang=eng
- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/elders-holland-and-cook-reflect-on-missionary-service-together-in-england?lang=eng
- https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/093-30-44.pdf
- https://www.deseret.com/2017/7/31/20616729/elder-holland-withdraws-church-news-missionary-story
- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/missionary-preparation-student-manual/chapter-1-called-to-serve?lang=eng
- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2012/05/saturday-afternoon-session/in-tune-with-the-music-of-faith?lang=eng
- https://sunstone.org/background-and-fallout/
- https://sunstone.org/background-and-fallout/
- https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1962sa/page/n5/mode/2up?q=Dr.+Ebeid+Sarofim
- https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/04/22/historian-d-micheal-quinn/
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s5Wq4Z4kMk
- https://www.thechurchnews.com/2022/6/27/23218763/elder-holland-seminar-new-mission-leaders-scriptures-book-mormon
- https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/pzkwza/lds_missions_policy_pressure_to_baptize/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/comments/vd725e/pressure_to_be_baptized/
Wheat & Tares 
Tokyo South mission 1980-82 had a thousand or more baptisms each month, influenced in part by Elder Kikuchi. The “converts” were mostly young adult men who were baptized the very first day they met the missionaries. No need for baseball. I was in another Japanese mission at the time. We received regular reports on the other missions in Japan. Fortunately, our mission president was not so numbers-driven.
I served 88-89 in what was the Albuquerque NM mission which included El Paso at the time. I hated the emphasis on numbers, said so early in my mission and was called to repentance by my zone leader. My mission president was a car salesman and it showed in his approach. I would leave every zone meeting in tears that we couldn’t do what we were asked. I remember one time I was in a great companionship, had a baptism the week previous and one scheduled for the next and still felt shamed at zone meeting. I concluded those talks must be for elders, not sisters, because speaking to me that way didn’t help me share the gospel.
It wasn’t until a district leader towards the end of my mission spoke truth to me that I understood that the numbers aren’t really about the missionary. They are about the agency of the convert.
In my area about 10 years ago I heard the mission president preaching invitations. He said a missionary should focus on what they can control which is the invitations they offer. People considering the church have their agency and make their decisions. This is an emotionally healthy approach. Too bad it has rarely been used in our history.
I served in Uruguay in 2010-2012. My mission president placed immense pressure on us to baptize. I developed depression and anxiety for the first time in my life and still live with it 10 years later. The most successful missionary was like a machine. He’d find people who met the bare minimum requirements for baptism, dunk them, and then never talk to them again. And he was held up as a role model for the rest of us. It broke my heart. I internalized the message that my own faith, my own sin, was the root cause of my failure. I doubt much has changed since in the mission field.
I served a mission in the early 90s in Ukraine. I remember a Zone Conference in which our mission president taught Alma 26:22. “Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such … it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance,.” Just a little bit of pressure there. If we could only repent enough and exercise enough faith and so on and so forth, we could baptize thousands.
We had mission baptism goals by the month. I was a rule-follower, and even while I thought it would be better to have a potential convert attend Church for, say, three months before baptism, the guidance was to baptize someone as soon as they felt the Spirit. I saw several of the people I’d taught quit Church shortly after baptism. In my TBM mindset, I was sorrowful that they’d rejected the Spirit and become chaff instead of wheat. When I talked out the issue with a priesthood holder, he told me to be obedient and let the chips fall where they may, essentially. In other words, keep with the baptism fast-track and what happens after baptism is between the convert and the Spirit. So that’s what I continued to do. It was years and years later that I learned to regret that, and wished I’d had the courage to push back rather than just follow rules.
I didn’t know Holland and Cook were mission companions before this post. It’s so interesting to find out more about the Q15. Thanks for researching and writing this post.
Why do too many new members fall away quickly after baptism? Maybe from not following the scriptural pattern. As quoted above, Elder Holland said: “Baptism is not primarily for the purpose of joining the Church but rather comes after faith and repentance.” So baptism is the natural fruit or result of faith and repentance. D&C 20:68 is (in my mind) exquisitely clear: baptisees should not be confirmed same day, or even next week or maybe next month. After baptism, the elders or priests (of the ward, not the full-time missionaries in my reading) “are to have a sufficient time to expound all things concerning the church of Christ to their [the newly baptized people’s] understanding, previous to their [the newly baptized people’s] partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed by the laying on of the hands of the elders, so that all things may be done in order.” I think that the scriptural pattern, if I read correctly, is it is OK to baptize after faith and repentance, and they do become members of the Church, but confirmation might take a couple of week or even months, until the teaching in v. 68 is done, and until the newly baptized person exhibits “a godly walk and conversation” in v. 69.
What should happen to those baptized who (a) are never taught, or (b) do not exhibit a godly walk and converstation? I don’t know. Maybe they cease to be members of the Church, which Elder Holland said is not the primary purpose of baptism anyway. Maybe after 180 days, or 1 year, or some period of time the non-confirmed membership simply lapses. And it could be extended on a case-by-case basis if the non-confirmed member is working toward progress. But if the non-confirmed baptisee is not making progress, the decent thing is to let him go, and no longer count him on our rolls. We should respect his decision not to what is necessary to be confirmed.
I served in the Indiana Indianapolis Mission from 1973 – 1975. My experience was similar to those that prior commentors have had. From what I have seen and heard since, it seems as if not much has changed. I want to give another interesting source for the baseball baptism events in England. the book by Gregory A. Prince and Wm. Robert Wright, David O. McKay and the rise of of Modern Mormonism.
It seems like you are trying to tie Elder Holland and Elder Cook to “baseball baptisms” without any evidence that they personally were involved in the practice other than the fact that they were in England around the same time. That is very thin gruel.
@BabaYogi, thank you for your input.
You are correct that are no public direct stories of Holland and Cook being involved in the baseball baptisms in 1960, just a polygamist one (by association). Just as many of us were in the environment of being pushed to baptize for numbers, does not mean we willingly participated.
If Cook/Holland did not participate then great ! If they did, then the discussion ensues. They had to have observed the problems of the mission system. Now in a decision making capacity they can stop the practice. The facts show many gullible British youth were baptized and then later “excommunicated”. The facts show the baseball baptism culture was replicated throughout missions throughout the world. Competitions and awards to missionaries continue for numbers. If Cook/Holland were such great missionaries, who did they baptize? Which teaching methods did they use to baptize to attain the title of “greatest missionary” or is that a faux ? Where are their stories? The recipe of statistic oriented baptisms continues 60+ years later, throughout a majority of LDS missions. I would be interested to hear your defense of their leadership in allowing the practice to continue. They are “tied” to baseball baptisms, even if is now in a different form, (most converts are not ready for baptism, other wise most would remain active or understand the commitments) if they do not condone and cease the practice.
I love these personal stories from the readers and encourage everyone to share their experiences.
While it’s certain that some missionaries have been involved in doubtful practices to boost their numbers–my sense is that those sorts of tactics are not as widespread as some folks believe–or some folks (like John Dehlin) would like us to believe. In my mission (81-83) the primary focus had to do with finding people to teach. Yes we had collective goals that we tried to reach–but I don’t remember feeling like we were placing goals ahead of people.
That said, I wonder if some of the criticism we hear on this issue comes from honest folks who have a hard time with the goal setting culture of 40 years ago. President Kimball famously said, “a goal not written is only a wish.” That was the mentality of the day. And though it may not resonate with some people–including myself–we should be careful not to suppose that there must be something sinister in such a mentality. Any virtue can be taken to an extreme or used to gain advantage over others.
I had an immediate family member (IFM) serve in Southern Europe in the 90s. Beach Karate Baptism was the conversion game in vogue there at that time. Due to this IFM’s gender, participation was not mandatory. Turning a blind eye was. Another IFM served in Central America in the 2010s. Dunking for Food was the big draw there. Earned a MP & an AS both promotions for their efforts to cook the books. No food was forthcoming from the local wards/branches, so the converts quickly de-converted. My IFM refused to participate, was bullied, traumatized, & returned home early. He has lost his appetite for the church’s offerings.
EagleLady, Can you name the MP and AS? Doing so may be helpful for improvement/correction.
I served in Brisbane Australia in 1992 ans 1993. Mission President was a businessman, and ran the mission like one. You got results, you got promoted. I can’t fault him for it, it was the system he knew.
I quickly noticed a few things that I was not able to articulate until after I had returned home, and I endeavor to teach these lessons to every missionary the leaves from my family.
These lessons are that you will be told that obedience leads to blessings, esp baptism. The number of times I was told to be obedient and we would baptize. This is absolute hogwash. The true secret to baptism is charisma. If you have a charismatic companion, or if you are charismatic, you will baptize. I had companionships where we worked 12 hour days for weeks on end, and never baptized. Other companionships, we just did whatever, and we baptized 3 and even 4 times in 2 months, which for Australia, was phenomenal. This companion was the Zone Leader, because of course. He had charisma, and thus got results. And results meant promotion. So, ignore the baloney about obedience, and enjoy the mission. Do the touristy things. It’s ok to take in a special cultural treat. Ad when you have that charismatic companion, be the steady end that prepares them for the reality of church membership. And when you don’t have that charismatic companion, it’s gonna be rough, but roll with the punches, laugh a lot and enjoy the ability to learn another langugae and culture.
France 1990-91 baptized just a few individuals, feel free to draw conclusions here, never did I find and baptize someone on my own from the upper middle class but I was so naive then that income levels (and sexual orientation) were never obvious to me or I was blind to it and focused on “three stakes in three years” as requested by our Harvard MBA mission president who is now a GA. I have no clue how many of these people remain active three decades later.
1-African man
2-husband of a lady from Peru who was a member
3-wife of a man from Africa who was a member
4-one of the town drunks
5-a guy from Portugal
Fast forward ten years later and I am a ward mission leader somewhere in New England – the missionaries baptized a US postal employee whose concerned family then gave him the book by Fawn Brodie – honestly he might have stayed if we had done better as a ward to fellowship him but of course now I still want to read that book !!
Son of a friend is currently serving in NYC and has had some “success” with the downtrodden but not so much in a new transfer to a gentrified area of Brooklyn.
Also thinking of Ryan “Ken” Gosling, Amy Adams, Aaron Eckhart, Kevin Rahm (google him) and other Hollywood people who have left the faith.
The stone cut out of the mountain is actually made of thin glass dated somewhere from 1820-1850 and has been shattered by the truth of what actually happened…
I served in South America in the 1990s, and the older missionaries in my mission often bragged about the previous mission president who presided over the highest baptizing mission in the world. But when I looked at branch membership records, it became clear that most of the baptisms from those years were children who weren’t active. I felt sick thinking about how the sacred ordinance of baptism was treated so casually.
That mission president who presided over those unethical baptisms soon became a general authority, and eventually one of the presidency of the 70. It seems like he was rewarded for high numbers that didn’t actually build the church. I bet a lot of his missionaries were disillusioned after their missions.
This post brings to mind the horrible book, “Drawing on the powers of heaven” by Grant Von Harrison. Anyone else fall victim to that awful tract? Sadly, I still see it for sale at Deseret Book online. It’s a how-to manual for gaslighting missionaries (and others) into thinking that if they’re not baptizing enough (or getting their wish list of blessings), it’s *their* own lack of faith and obedience that’s the problem.
I literally weep when I read some of the comments. I am not blind to the excesses and outright ungodly practices that have arisen from time to time. I literally lived with the aftermath in Chile. I served in NYC 77-79. Never once did I feel pressure to baptize. In fact, on one occasion we took a man we were teaching to the old NYC visitors center where at the conclusion of the tour he requested baptism. In my youthful exuberance, I called the MP and asked if we could baptize him that day. He wisely said: “No, let’s make sure he has all the lessons and has attended church several times.” I know that maybe was not the practice in other missions. After returning home I heard horror stories of Tokyo South and others. l Iived with the aftermath of the disastrous practices of the past in Chile.
One thing I can say unequivocally is that, at least in this era, these practices of the past do not in any way come from the Q15. I dealt a lot with Elder Holland and Elder Cook, both were products of Hanks and not Woodbury. Elder Holland was sent to Chile not for a vacation, but to try and fix the problems of the past. Of course, there are some MPs that served missions in places and under MPs that did dumb things and have been influenced by them. We have all dealt with some leaders that have been humble, Christlike, and inspiring and who cared about feeding the Lord’s sheep. We have all dealt with the opposite. That’s the human condition. Ten people can sit in the same meeting and come away with 10 different interpretations.
I served as a counselor to 4 mission presidents in the Northeast. Some inspiring, some not so much. I recall on one occasion a GA70 visited the mission. In a meeting, he “challenged the MP to set a goal to baptize 90 people in 90 days in celebration of ETBs 90th birthday, and then to engrave the names on a plaque and send it to Pres. Benson. I objected. The MP hated the idea but felt pressured by the GA. BTW the GA was from my hometown and my parents had known him for years. He was marginally active as a youth and never served a mission. It was clear that he was looking for recognition. So yes, I get it there are some dumb humans out there. But let’s not assume that the church of 30-40 years ago is the same today. It aint. To imply that Holland and Cook are responsible for baseball baptisms and high pressure tactics is wrong, not true, and perpetuates a myth that we are the same today as a church as we were generations ago.
My son is currently serving a mission in Europe. Last Christmas they were under intense pressure from the mission to double, triple and quadruple their finding numbers, and were told to double or triple their baptism goals for December.
Why such pressure? This is what leads to flash on the pan conversion-free baptisms. How does this strengthen the church?
The reason given was something along the lines of people being more likely to get baptized at Christmas. I’ve not seen this in my life, but, okay.
My son and his comp prayerfully changed a goal to a much, much, higher number and the zone leaders called and asked why it wasn’t higher. ZLs (middle management at its worst) suggested he double the goal yet again. When he resisted, the MP called asking why he lacked the faith to do what the Lord wanted.
When I heard this, I realize nothing has changed since I served. I told him to say, “we prayerfully set this goal. If that is not acceptable, tell me what number you want me to write down.”
Stateside, we have to set annual and monthly baptismal goals at the ward and stake level. We are currently under pressure to “double the size of the church” in the next ten years.
So much for setting goals that are within our own agency.
It was pushed heavily partway through my mission. As someone who was trying hard to “do it right” I really thought was it was presenting was true. Took me a long time to come to terms with the harmful false doctrine it presents. I think this book is one of the most harmful things ever published with respect to missionary work.
Lawrence
You won leadership roulette.
I had the same issues in stake after stake, in multiple states of spiritual abuse. I have seen unreasonable MP across the country. These are not isolatwd issues from time to time. my last straw was early morning seminary and requiring kids to get up at 5am for a 530 am class which is not required in Utah and a unreasonable SP.. Many of us lost leadership roulette, and until the Q15 allows members a voice, we will speak with our feet and walk away. But still tied to church with family and culture.
The church sure calls “a lot of dumb humans/dopps to leadership ,”
When the church works it can be a great experience, and when it does not work, it is cognitive dissonance peril.
I love that you are participating on this blog. My push back is not to you but the system. If all members were aware of the problems the church, they would clean up the system. the church responds to bad press and embarrassment, hence one purpose of my posts.
Chet,
I served in the France Paris mission in the late 1980s. In the first year of my mission my record was quite sad. I participated in the following baptisms:
First baptism was of a married couple who had been taught by previous missionaries and after some delay and out of the blue called and asked to be baptized. They literally never showed up to church afterwards. I have no idea what made them do this.
Next baptism was of a young woman who immediately demanded the companion who did the baptism marry her and take her to the United States.
Last baptisms of my first year were of two teenage girl a previous companionship had taught. Never saw them afterwards.
What really stands out about my first year in France is how pathetic we were at finding people to teach. We were either the worst evangelists in the history of Christianity or France in 1987 was under a dark spell.
Second year was better and in one area we had real growth and retention. Two people I taught and baptized married in the temple and served in the church for decades afterwards. Several others stayed active for at least a year. I was not good at keeping track.
My mission presidents were good, compassionate men. But we had some GAs show up who were clueless about how difficult the missionary effort was. They would express their dismay at our low numbers. I so desperately wanted to stand up and tell the GA to put up or shut-up. Let’s have the GA spend a month in France and find, teach and baptize a few people. Then, if he did it it he could scold the missionaries for not doing what he had done.
I have mixed feelings about missionary work to find and convert people. I see positives in young people spending time gaining spiritual self-reliance and learning to have empathy for others. I see negatives both in the institutional pressure to baptize people who are not converted and in the missionary program itself that seems to exploit the cheap labor of full-time missionaries. If missionaries had to be paid by the church no way would the church tolerate the inefficient, time wasting program that is currently followed.
There are people in the world who, once made aware of the LDS restoration message, embrace it and become good, contributing church members. But the best means of reaching these people seems to elude the Church leadership, which is rather disappointing. After 193 years of trying one would think the organization would have a better idea of how to effectively do missionary work.
Disciple: “We were either the worst evangelists in the history of Christianity or France in 1987 was under a dark spell.” Or, third option, the message is trying to solve the wrong problems, and not trying to solve the right ones. By this I mean the Church’s message, not the gospel message in general, but the way the Church presents it. It is very focused on two things that get in the way of other aspects of the gospel: 1) patriarchy (winning fathers so the entire family is *theoretically* retained as if he’s the only one in the family worth “getting” which feels like we’ve got a boatload of assumptions tied to that: who pays tithing/earns money, who “controls” the others), and 2) the needs of the local wards (to find people that fit in ready made, firmly middle class, not the damaged diamonds in the rough who seek out the missionaries). But your mindset of it being either the missionaries’ fault or a “dark spell” over the locals is familiar to those of us who served missions. Looking back as an adult, I can see that there were a lot of gaps in what we were teaching and offering to people who often needed other things.
Faith: Re the church calling a lot of dunderheads into leadership, which is undeniably true, it can’t be divorced from the limitations we put on who *can* be called: upper middle class non-divorced middle aged men. The majority of Church members are women, first of all, many of whom (most?) are equally or better qualified than the pool of men we pull from, but they are barred. Then we also cut out all the divorced and single men, anyone with a lapsed TR (or a history of such lapses), anyone with LGBTQ kids or sympathies, anyone who’s not conservative enough, previously anyone who hadn’t advanced to the High Priest group from the EQ group, anyone the SP doesn’t like (often this means we cut out anyone who isn’t a yes man), anyone whose job prevents the time commitment or who has a rocky marriage or whose wife is deemed unsuitable (or a feminist or who has a career), and what are we left with? 3-5 of the ward to choose from? Less? Of course we’re going to get bad results that are obvious to the rest of us. We aren’t even close to picking the best and brightest.
Faith – I agree. I’ve seen some marginal at best. I’ve seen MP, SP, B released for what I would call spiritual abuse or utter incompetence. I can tell you that letters to the Q12 or the 70 from parents get attention. I was involved in two situations where two MPs were way off the reservation. It was letters from the parents of missionaries that caused the change. In the area where we served, there were 26 missions. I knew most of the MPs well. Most were really good but a couple not so good. Example – MPs get an early return report quarterly. It lists all of the various reasons for early return. I think its a dumb report. In one meeting a particularly rigid MP took to task those with low early return numbers. He said others were allowing unworthy missionaries to make a mockery of missionary work. I fumed. The senior member of the area presidency took him to task and said low return rates are what we should have and some of you are being too harsh. I get all of the complaints expressed in this entire thread. I have seen most of them. But my point is that there is no area of our lives where we deal with perfect humans. And just because someone is “called” doesn’t mean they don’t bring with them their own weakness and style. So yes I’ve seen some leadership disasters but I’ve seen some incredibly good, humble, and inspiring leaders as well. At all levels!
For example, our mission was a new mission and was made up of missionaries from 2 different missions. The culture of the two were astoundingly different. One super strict and the other pretty lax. We had an AP from each and they were asking me all the time “President what’s the rule for _______.” Finally, I said “Look I’m not Moses, and your not the Children of Isreal. Just get the spirit and do what’s right.” It took a few months for the cultures to level out but when they did and we had missionaries that could govern themselves our return rate plunged to next to nothing.
I have done a lot of interfaith work for the last 30 years and am close to a lot of pastors. I’ve done a lot of legal work for various churches.. Our problems are no different than theirs and sometimes theirs are even worse. That is the nature of organizations.
@Lawrence, thanks for listening and letting me tell part of my story. I love reading others stories knowing I am not alone and to get other perspectives. I would like to respond:
You are right in the nature of organizations. However if I do not like or gel with a job or a place I can move on and forget and avoid that circumstance. Learning life’s lessons. However, many religions do not allow that, especially those of your heritage, without taking away your dignity. We are tied to Mormonism by the generations and can not just walk away. My first ancestor joined LDS in 1831.
However we were taught the LDS is not just an organization, it is God’s kingdom on earth. The church says many bold points, but then backs off later or gaslights, denying the prior teachings, or stating they are just men and give them a break. So which is it?
Part of the issue was growing up as a black and white thinker; was that my doing or the church’s? I was the obidient child, a product of my time. I have seen more non-BW thinkers are staying in the church ,and the BW ones realize it does not add up and have a hard time understanding nuance since we were not taught such. Some of my active family do not believe in JS, or many aspects of the restoration and go every week to church. That is why the CES letter or the like do not affect them. They do not pay attention to church or the anti (they are mostly uninformed, and happy in their ignorance), they just go to church to go. Maybe if I were not such an avid reader I would be still in the bliss.
I have seen members from my youth who partied and broke all the rules (sex, drugs,alcohol) and are now stake presidents. They know how to play the mormon social game. The abusive MP’s go on to be GA. I would state church calling promotion is based on cliques, nepotism and yes men. I have seen it over and over.
I would guess (but you will probally disgree ), you got it, spoke the truth and stopped your journey as GA candidate. we should be seeking the callings, but look what comes from many GA and the system once they have power. One GA told his brother (my former HT) he wanted everyone to see him on the GenConf stand. (By the way he was in charge of the strengtheing church members committe). Many, not all, of GA’s are arrogant. When I needed help from my pain and church problems caused by decison makers (not leaders) on my mission, through many points of life and finally early morning seminary, SLC ignored my requests, i was told to shut up and be obidient and SLC promoted those causing the spiritual abuse up the ranks. One of my old bishops was a GA and when we spoke to him, he stated that is wrong, but nothing changed. Well this obedient boy had received enough abuse over decades, and the gloves came off.
That is my reality, not my perception. I do not want more people to suffer, hence I now speak up. I really do not believe the missionary number games are over, if Cook and Holland wanted to stop it they would. This system is ongoing for 60 years. I wish more people would have told their mission stories , but the life of this specific blog is passing. Look how many people told their truth of spiritual abuse and number baseball baptisms.
My kids were on missions in 2016 and 2020, the system is still corrupt. The ivory tower people can think it is over ,but they only deceive themselves.
The LDS church literally broke me and my family after we gave it literally everything. There are thousands like me
I have found more peace in my second half of life. I still have most family members in church and still have to deal with the LDS church, and can not just throw it away like a lemon car even though it would be refreshing to disengage.
Some people comment that this WT blog is negative. I disagree. These blogs allow people to realize others issues, express empathy and help others emotionally. The church only gives the flowery unrealistic faith promoting stories which are not based in reality. The church does not allow critizism, even when true. I plan to continue my series in writing about LDS leaders and their follies and the systems follies based on the facts until change is made and they make true penance for all the past. You can not dispute the facts I have placed, just some of my side commentary is opion/experienced based. If they would humble themselves and admit mistakes much of this would go away. You do not see the Osler brothers or the compassionate types getting placed in decision making capacity. it is the yes men like Bednar who continue to cause pain and heart ache from their non Christlike actions and comments that dominate their narrative. The way this organization
is administered, has little resemblance to what Christ taught or would act.
@Janey, I was also in Ukraine in the early 1990s (Kyiv 1991-1992, Kharkiv early 1993). I’m curious whether we know each other. I’m not a super frequent reader of this blog but get here now and then.
I was in the Kyiv mission under the late Howard Biddulph my whole mission, completing my mission shortly before the first mission split in the summer of 1993. I have really positive memories of him. In terms of pressure to baptize, my perception was that the need to baptize was most certainly preached in zone conferences, perhaps to a greater degree at times by the APs than by the mission president himself, but I didn’t personally feel the kind of pressure I’ve heard others describe from their mission experiences. At the time Ukraine was experiencing much higher baptism rates than nearly all neighboring countries, so perhaps that helped keep the pressure off. I do remember going through periods where there was an emphasis on pushing the baptismal commitment as early as possible in the discussions. Being introverted and an avoider of confrontation, I’m not sure I actually followed through, but the practice was in fact suggested in writing right in the discussions, yet today’s Q15 suddenly wonder aloud where everyone got the idea.
I remember after a while there was more emphasis on searching for priesthood leadership. It turns out some charismatic young American guys can convert a whole lot of teenage girls in short order, and that led to some imbalances in some branches. I’m not sure how I feel about that push for converting men. It’s sort of transparently sexist on one level, based on the sexism that is baked into Mormonism from the beginning, but it’s also not a terrible idea to want more families to join the church together or to have gender balance.
Faith – I do not doubt your experience. We are all a product to a degree of the environment we came up in, be it family, church, school, mission, politics, etc. I feel really lucky. Doubting and questioning of authority was never off the table. My mom was the granddaughter of one of the more liberal apostles, the child of disaffected parents, raised by “faithful” grandparents. Dad was a convert. who questioned everything and encouraged us to do the same. I’ve just never had an illusion of infallibility or hero worship. Of course I’ve had some GA really disappointment by their attitudes, arrogance, and actions. But I have also had close relationships with some humble and Christlike GAs. Fortunately, that has been the majority of my experience. I have to laugh at the comment that I stopped my journey to GA. Was never a concern of mine. During the mission, I was pretty outspoken on some issues and received nothing but support from Q12 while one member of the AP was clearly plotting his future and tired to push me and the mission in a direction I refused to go. At the urging of my kids I just started writing my personal history. It’s a fun and cathartic trip down memory lane. I frankly marvel at the difference in my church life experience to so many others. BTW, I know the Ostlers. Great men who have held substantial leadership roles and have never been marginalized by the leadership.
Good luck to you and thank you for your candor.
No offense to this guest poster, but I can’t make head nor tails of what he/she is trying to say. I’ve read it three times. Makes no sense.
This was so interesting because I had recently been reading about the baseball baptisms in the book on David O’McKay that another commenter mentioned. It’s interesting to me too for another reason because my mother joined the church in the early 50s in London, England in the days when teaching investigators was a lengthy process. I remember both Presidents Woodbury and Hanks, even though I was very young at the time. Pres Woodbury came across as a very slick, wealthy American, Pres Hanks was very genuine and he and his family were very much loved by the people. As a teen in a more central London branch of the church there were youth that came to activities and sometimes church but we never saw their parents and I think they probably got baptized through that program. I remember one particular boy who looked white but apparently had some black parentage and hearing that he couldn’t have the priesthood. I felt so uncomfortable about that and didn’t understand it at all. I often wondered what happened to him. Not long after that we started attending a newly formed branch closer to where I lived and when I turned 18 I was called to be the YW president and that’s where I first heard about the fallout from the baseball baptisms. We were given lists of youth to try to contact about their membership – I can’t remember what we were to do or say, but being so young myself I was really uncomfortable about it..Thankfully my counselor was a mature woman and she took on the challenge but I don’t remember what happened after that.
Two of my children served missions and I think they both won the leadership roulette because they had good MPs and positive experience but I’ve also heard some horrific stories and experiences of others and it really bothers me.