“The greatest dignity the church can give people who suffer is to tell them that their cries of anguish are worthy of God’s ear.
The most shameful thing the church can do is tell people who suffer that there is something wrong with them for suffering.”
—Matthew Richard Schlimm.
The point is that an honest reading of the Old Testament teaches:
- Tragedy strikes everyone.
- Honest prayer includes your anger and sorrow and honest prayer is needed to communicate with God.
- With honesty, faith can survive tragedy and loss.
Reading the Old Testament you will find many, many prayers that express suffering and loss. Lamentations. Almost a third of Psalms. Habakkuk and Jeremiah.
When Job complains God validates him as speaking what is right (Job 42:6-8).
There are two approaches. One is to deny tragedy and loss. That leaves to a religion and faith that is inadequate to adversity, inadequate for real life.
The other approach is to read and remember the scriptures as giving honest voice to the pain and grief that people truly feel and the journey that includes finding honest communication with God that makes possible an honest hope.
And that hope can sustain faith in tragedy and loss.
Wheat & Tares 
And, like some of God’s best friends in the Old Testament, you can argue with Him.
One of the most transformative works of literature I’ve read is Ellie Wiesel’s “The Trial of God.” Reading the script of the play sometimes in my late 20s, I recognized for the first time that one might simultaneously believe in and rail against God, that a sometimes contentious relationship with diety was possible, and that this sort of honesty could transform me in ways that trying to maintain an attitude of adoration towards diety never could. It taught me to trust my moral compass, instead of trying to perform the mental gymnastics required to find something worthy of adoration in the depravity around me.
To your point of there being two approaches. Life is not a problem to be solved but rather, something to be lived.
I recently listened back to the Q&A session of Elder Bednar at the National Press Club in May, 2022. I was gob smacked by a few of his responses, but none more than the following:
Reporter – Given the significant financial strain that tithing is for those in war and abject poverty, is there any discussion within the Church about not requiring that for people in those situations?
Elder Bednar – The pathway out of poverty is keeping the commandments of God, including tithing. The Church doesn’t need their money, but those people need the blessings that come from obeying God’s commandments.
His answer, in context of your post on suffering, specifically promotes the “Prosperity Gospel”. Poverty is one of the most pervasive forms of suffering that has existed throughout time, and Elder Bednar’s answer is deeply disconnected from reality and extremely disingenuous. By his logic, suffering (specifically poverty) is evidence for a lack of obedience to God’s commandments.
Which also suggests that wealth is a symbol of righteousness. His statement contains the same flaw as the question posed by Jesus’ disciples, they asked, Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind. For them and apparently Elder Bednar, suffering was a ready explanation for sin, instead of a call for them to be merciful.
To say that the pathway out of poverty (suffering) is keeping the commandments of God is a radical fallacy, and a cheapening of the Gospel purpose. For Jesus to utter the words, I AM the way, the truth and the life, is making your posts point. The gospel is not the way to escape suffering, but the way to respond to it, without causing more harm, that suffering can be given meaning, purpose and possibility.
Todd – Brilliant!
Todd’s commentary is well stated. Bednar’s remarks were absurd. How does he rationalize the suffering of the obedient? Are we to assume that if a bishop or his family member dies suddenly, that this is an indicator of disobedience? We all suffer, regardless of our status in the Mormon hierarchy.
Serious question: Does Bednar speak for the entire Q15? If so, Mormonism continues to define itself primarily as a religion based on OT philosophies (i.e. pay your tithing or die) than on the mission of Christ and the Atonement.
As someone who has had to deal with health challenges for much of my life I appreciate this OP. My sister and I both ended up with most of the “genetic joy” (our family’s euphemism for the crappy genes that both of my parents passed on to my sibs and me). When either of us have had to fill out our family’s medical history doctors and nurses usually comment on how surprised they are by the number of boxes we have checked off on the list of familial diseases and health issues we have inherited. It has been a difficult journey to say the least.
One day some years ago the two of us were visiting with our mom, and we were both quite discouraged by our health situation. Our mom, who was the queen of the TBMs, blithely told us that she absolutely KNEW 100% that we’d chosen to have these challenges in the pre existence. To say that we were gob smacked was an understatement! No empathy whatsoever even though we were her own children. When our dad found out he was furious because he’d just been diagnosed with Parkinson’s Disease, and following her logic that meant that he’d also chosen to suffer with it in the pre existence.🤬
I don’t know why I had never noticed the extent of how common this false doctrine was in church belief until then when this happened to me. Frankly, it was and continues to be shocking and disheartening to hear such callous claims from church leadership at all levels and TBMs. Rather than responding with the supreme love and compassion that Jesus demonstrated throughout his ministry and that he has asked us as his followers to show for all people who struggle with physical and mental health issues, divorce, abuse of all forms, loss of a job, etc. it’s easier for these leaders and members to simply tell those who are struggling and suffering that they “chose” this burden in the pre existence. By doing so, they absolve themselves from having to help bear another person’s burdens. This is absolutely NOT the doctrine of Christ! When my mother’s heart began to fail her and she began to have mini strokes a part of me was momentarily tempted to tell her that she too had chosen these problems in the pre existence. However, the hurt and anger that I’d felt the first time she’d made her terrible comment to my sister and me reminded me that I would never wish someone else to be treated the way that I’d been and I swallowed my retort.
Perhaps it is just my own situation, but I feel that the church and many of its active members have become more and more callous towards our brothers and sisters who struggle on a daily basis. Members who used to be able to get financial support from the ward/branch during a time of financial distress or serious illness are now often turned away with a lecture on pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. Members with long term mental or physical health issues are lectured on the need to attend ALL of their meetings regardless of the pain and/or downright negative results that they would experience if they did so. The church has billions of dollars in its coffers that could be used to great effect to help the poor, the sick, the disabled, the under educated or illiterate and the homeless at home and abroad. It could be a shining example of living Christ’s command to feed his sheep everywhere. Instead, there are homeless people who camp outside of Temple Square and the church office complex and the 3 billion dollar high end mall across the street from these places. The Savior and our Heavenly Parents must weep to see this.
A Poor Wafering Stranger, the appropriate response to such comments about we choose our trials/disease/suffering in the pre-existence, is to inform them that they obviously choose to help and comfort us in the pre-existence. Then, demand the help and comfort that they promised to give to you while they were in the pre-existence.
With that one, at least we are sure they promised to mourn with us when they got baptized.
And Bednar’s horrible comment has been preached before by general authorities. It is just an excuse for the church to puts its greed before the needs of members. The other, “you choose this in the pre-existence” is just an excuse to avoid giving help and comfort, or sheer laziness. Saying that the poor must not be as righteous as the rich is just an excuse not to give them some of your own money. All of these responses are very unChristlike.
Stephen, Do you intend this to apply politically as well? So many right wing policies have harmful/unkind consequences, at levels more extreme than in other first world countries. My impression is that Americans are less inclined to make this connection than others. Our conservative party is virtually unelectable at present because of inaction on climate change, and it’s treatment of women particularly.
I had not heard the expression crap jeans until recently, when a daughter ironically thanked he mother for hers. Malignant hypothermia, and restless legs.
This is my central concern with the church. We can fail to teach people compassion and love when we teach self reliance as a form of prosperity gospel. In my opinion it’s part of the trend to warp our spiritual understanding to fit our political tribe. Politics, in the end, has become more powerful than love.
1. Yes, suffering strikes everybody, but obviously to different degrees. My suffering has been minimal compared to what many other have endured.
2. Yes, prayer should include anger and sorrow. But if God isn’t “stirring the pot,” it’s more a form of meditation more than communication.
3. I don’t what that sentence even means. It sounds nonsensical. What does honesty have to do with suffering?
Turning to the OT for guidance or understanding on suffering seems wrong. I’m not a believer in the OT, except as literature, and then only a few books. The NT provide a message of hope. But the scriptures are not all they are cracked up to be.
The Church should be actively engaged with helping those who suffer. But their track record is spotty at best. Telling people the pray and read the scriptures to overcome suffering is not useful.
Once we understand ACE’s, the connection of adverse childhood experiences, to health outcomes in adults, it’s hard to continue to believe the prosperity gospel. Look up the TED Talk by Nadine Burke Harris, “How Childhood Trauma Affects Health Across a Lifetime.”
Link in next comment.
Last night at 3.00am I was up to the toilet (old man) when I heard noise in the house. I went out and found 2 young men in the house. When I turned on the lights they ran out, taking with them my wallet, and 2 of my wife’s handbags. We think they were looking for car keys, to steal a car.
I filed a police report online which took an hour, and cancelled our credit and debit cards.
We were impressed when a forensic police officer turned up at 10.30.
And even more impressed when a CID police officer phoned at 2.00pm, and told us they had arrested one of the young men and were still investigating. Asked if I had security cameras, or my neighbours might. We will be able to pick up whichever of our possessions are recovered later in the week.
This is the first time we have been burgled.
We are thankful to live in a country where burglers don’t carry weapons. 12 times more likely to die by firearms in USA.
We will not be voting for law and order politicians, as a result of this experience. Because we are aware that the consequences of that are that incredible numbers of people are suffering in prison. The average in first world is less than 1 in 1000. USA 5.31 /1000. Canada 0.88/1000. Why are 6 times as many Americans in prison as Canadians?
In my experience, Judaism, a religion based upon Old Testament teachings and the tradition of arguing with God and each other, is far more compassionate than the LDS faith.