Ever get so annoyed, disgusted, fed up, appalled, worn out, or simply bored out of your mind enough to want to put the whole religion/church thing in the rear-view mirror once and for all? Yeah, me too.
But then, there always seem to be some kind of mitigating circumstances. We stay because of the spouse, or the kids, or the extended family/clan. Or maybe it’s for social or professional reasons or it’s just that’s what we do. Tradition. Heritage. Familiarity. While the pandemic the last two years has given us all a taste of what life might be like without church and its responsibilities and demands (as well as its opportunities and blessings, let’s not forget), this still isn’t a decision that should be rushed.
For some folks, unfortunately, their only option is to keep their butts in the same pews as usual on Sunday, even while their minds and souls wander elsewhere. If that describes you, please pay close attention to your spiritual and mental health. I’m told some readers of Wheat & Tares use this blog as a safe place to either blow off some steam (i.e., righteous indignation) or retreat to a “happy place.” As good as an online community can be, it’s still not quite the same as having a trusted community “in the flesh,” so to speak.
In any event, well-known Christian author Brian D. McLaren’s newest book may be just what all of us fence-sitters have needed: Do I Stay Christian? A Guide for the Doubters, the Disappointed, and the Disillusioned.
I’ve read several of his previous books, most notably A New Kind of Christian and Faith After Doubt. This book is a natural extention of those two.
He spends the first 10 chapters enumerating all the reasons for saying a final NO to Christianity. It’s thorough and quite persuasive. He begins with Christianity’s 2,000-year record of anti-Semitism. Let’s be honest; what Hitler and the Nazis did in the 1930s and 1940s didn’t just appear out of nowhere. The Christian church viciously brutalized its “Mother” almost from the beginning. These days Evangelical Christians (think John Hagee, Franklin Graham, and Jerry Falwell Jr., among others) practice “philosemitism.” They essentially pretend to be Israel’s best friends, but only to further their Last Days, “end of the world” theology that, truth be told once Jesus comes back as an ultimate warrior, will require Jews to either accept Jesus Christ as personal savior or be sent to hell.
I don’t have room to go into all the other nine chapters in detail. Just to mention a few: the Crusades (“let’s kill some Muslims for Jesus!”), the papal Doctrine of Discovery (that’s how we got White European colonialism and the enslavement of people of color), American Protestants’ Manifest Destiny (ostensibly to create a New Jerusalem, which required wiping out Indigenous People in North America), authoritarianism, White Patriarchy, anti-intellectualism, and a deeply embedded love of money (even though Jesus probably had more to say about money than any other topic, but well, you know, priorities). And let’s not forget American Evangelicals love affair with Donald Trump and White Christian Nationalism.
After about eight chapters I began to get pretty depressed, and maybe you will, too. Keep on reading!
If you can make it through those first 10 chapters without bolting Christianity, McLaren offers another 10 chapters with reasons why you should stay. These are more nuanced and begin to reveal his nondualistic way of thinking (there’s really a whole range of options between Go and Stay). Perhaps my favorite of his Yes reasons is, “Because it would be a shame to leave a religion in its infancy.” What if Christianity is just getting started? What if, now that Christianity has screwed up so badly for 2,000 years, it’s finally getting its act together in new, previously unimaginable ways?
McLaren points out that leaving defiantly or staying compliantly are not the only options. There are plenty of folks out there hard at work to change Christianity for the better. Why abandon them when they need help the most?
But the most important question is not, after all, to leave, stay, or something in-between. Rather, the key is HOW do we live our lives from now on. It’s the questions, not the answers, that matter most. McLaren starts off Part 3 of his book with this quote:
I want to beg you, as much as I can, dear sir, to be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves like locked rooms and like books that are written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.
–from Rainer Maria Rilke’s 1903 letter to Franz Xaver Kappus
Sure, Christians both individually and through the institutions they’ve created to promote and organize Christianity, have royally screwed up, forgetting the words and life example of Jesus. Of course there have been good things along the way, too. And we could spend a lot of time and energy debating the balance or whether our “sunk cost” is worth our continued involvement.
McLaren, though, is calling for a fresh start and an honest appraisal of who we are and whose we are. For some, the weight of the past will just be too much to continue to bear. We need to accept, understand, and continue to love those folks. Correspondingly, we need to do the same for those desiring to keep the status quo (I personally need to work on that, a lot).
Others may need to change their “brand” of Christianity, if they no longer feel welcome in their denominaton for any reason or if it’s become hostile or toxic. But if you choose to leave, do it on good terms. Be honest and forthcoming, and most of all continue to love your neighbor.
- What are the primary questions involved in your own relationship with either Christianity as a whole or your current denominational involvement?
- McLaren contends the best place to be in a religious organization is somewhere on its edge, preferably just inside. Do you agree?
- What (or who) is keeping you in the church or driving you out?
Wheat & Tares 
For me, I didn’t find “the best place to be in a religious organization is somewhere on its edge, preferably just inside” to work well. I suppose it depends on what you’re looking for in a religion. While I wholly bought into all the doctrine (which apparently in reality is mostly just policies), the community aspect when you’re just inside the edge is sorely lacking and I wanted that. It’s lonely when you’re kept on the fringes despite following all the rules and wanting to be part of the community. My situation was a part member family. There are a whole slew of other reasons you’re pushed to the fringe and I wonder sometimes if the fringe people outnumber the inner circle. That said, the inner circle rules all. But, if being part of the community isn’t important to you, and you’re comfortable with your beliefs even if they differ from the expected norm, then being on the edge is probably a good place to be.
I think fanilywomen hits the nail on the head. If you’re comfortable in your beliefs, really don’t care what other people think about them, and have other forms of community beyond church then being on the edge is good. I really think the church will be a different experience if/when more people get comfortable being openly in different places on the belief and orthodoxy spectrum.
I haven’t read Brian’s new book but am currently listening to the podcast series he’s doing about the book and concept. I really enjoy his perspective and think he’s one of the key voices in contemplative Christianity today.
Thank you for the recommendation, I’ll have to read this book. Christianity has failed in many ways but I think that while Christ wouldn’t approve he wouldn’t be surprised either. I think He understood that everyone has a good side and a dark side.
My latest fantasy is to achieve the a) service aspects of Christianity by volunteering at a food bank weekly and b) getting the community needs met by riding with my cycling friends every Sunday. And yet I go to church every Sunday, not volunteering often enough not riding often enough.
Perhaps the counterpoint to the song “should I stay or should I go” is Tevya’s “Tradition” from Fiddler on the Roof.
Toad: I don’t say this often online or IRL, but perhaps it’s time to act on those fantasies 😉
Religion CAN be a positive force in the world. We could all provide examples. But religion is very divisive currently, historically, nationally, and throughout the world. I hate to sound like John Lennon but imagine a world without the “us vs. them” mentality of religion. Imagine the state of Utah.
Everyone has a different experience. Here’s mine: I miss the community that I had when I was active in the Church. But the net effect of leaving has been overwhelmingly positive. I view my neighbors differently. I view the rest of the community differently. I no longer have a “saint vs. gentile” outlook and it has (hopefully) made me a better person.
Should you stay or should you go? If you’re on the fence, please consider my experience. I know it’s scary but believe me when I tell you it’s a great world out there if you let yourself find it. And religion has nothing to do with it.
This line:
To put it succinctly, this kind of thinking falls apart when one comes to the realization that they cannot consider religious communities as a trusted community any longer..
You have to really re-evaluate the entire premise. It’s now: “why voluntarily engage with a community whom you distrust and who distrusts you?” There’s plenty of involuntary interactions we have to get through that are like this (and I understand that because of family, friends, etc., religion may be such an involuntary relationship. To flip your earlier statement: “We stay because of the spouse, or the kids, or the extended family/clan”…I get the sense that you mean this in a “Family, spouse, kids, are positive things in a sea of negatives about religion,” but what happens when religion turns family, spouse, kids, etc., against one? So now you’re walking on eggshells to avoid upsetting spouse, breaking apart family, etc.,?)
If there are involuntary interactions of distrust, why would we add yet another one voluntarily?
Andrew S: I think we’re probably on the same page. The key element in a community, particularly religious ones, is trust. Without that it’s really not so much a community as it is just a grouping of people, random or intentional. And, of course, a trusted community can break down for any number of reasons and begin to cause considerable harm.
There was a meme making the rounds on social media during the recent July 4th holiday that said “Tradition: peer pressure from dead people.” When I shared this with my wife she laughed out loud. I’ve decided tradition is a bad reason to do things for me personally.
Everyone’s answer to this post will be different. For me, if I was where I am now in my last ward, there was nothing there for me or my family. We were literally fading away. Then there was a multi-stake re-arrangement of boundaries earlier this year and, voila, our street was put back with the rest of our neighborhood’s church boundaries (instead of this wonky carve out that previously had put us and our SP into a project ward that he never attended and literally was destroying us). Our new community serves many of our family’s needs. So we engage with it when we can.
I’ve had the same vision as Toad: replace my church time with volunteering and my exercise community. We came so close to pulling that trigger and then our new ward reached out and made us busy with actual callings we wanted, so we have shelved the vision for the time being to serve in callings we actually want. But the dream is still there. I look forward to the day when it’s right to realize it.
And Josh h has nailed it. IMO, religion does more harm than good. I still hope that can change.
familywomen: There was a psychometric test that was making the rounds about two decades ago called the FIRO-B that assessed how much a person was oriented toward needing to feel belonging and association. I scored really low on that, although obviously everyone needs some sense of community on some level, but I think your observation is accurate that the lower one’s need to participate or feel part of something, the more comfortable one will be with staying in but on the fringe or the edge. Most people pulling the levers are going to be joiners, I suspect, but when a non-joiner gets put in charge, they might be more OK with breaking norms with exciting results.
josh h: Your experience reminds me of something an exMo Twitter person said, that they felt like they were hanging on by their fingernails off the edge of a cliff for a long time, and when they finally let go, they realized they only fell about two inches.
I agree completely with Andrew S that a community that has lost our trust is no community to join, I honestly don’t know how to participate in a community that wants my adult child to not exist, that believes I don’t deserve rights because I’m a woman (and that sees my–and my daughter’s–eternal reward as eternally second class), that “backs the boys in blue” for barely veiled racist reasons, and that wants to expand theocratic rule and “religious freedom” so far beyond its original borders that all non-believers are stripped of equal dignity and access to goods and services in society. If we set aside the political stuff (which I would love to, but it sure does creep back in since so many feel comfortable expressing their conservative political views openly and asserting their “godliness”), what’s left? Leader worship instead of Christianity, and an assertion that following leaders is the same thing as following Jesus, which is patently absurd and leads to all sorts of problematic issues given that the current top leaders are extremely autocratic and don’t believe they need to persuade, teach or convince anyone of anything, just issue edicts and expect unquestioning obedience. We no longer make moral arguments. We’ve got Bednar explaining away agency by claiming that covenants made at age 8 remove the possibility of individual moral choice or exceptions to leader edicts. Sorry, but this is not the Christianity Jesus taught.
One of the purposes of organized Christian religion is to teach moral values, Christian values. Hearing weekly lessons/talks/uplifting stories that teach Christian values has great benefits to the individual, to families and to society as a whole. I hear people say that they don’t need organized religion’s help in this regard. They can do these things on their own. They can read and study on their own. People on this forum sometimes say that they have chosen to do service projects of their own choosing, pay “tithes and offerings” to causes of their own choosing, participate in other communities rather than church communities. This is all great and commendable. I think this W&T community is different than the average Christian out there though. It takes a very self-disciplined person to continue to do volunteer work, contribute to charitable causes, and basically be a selfless person without help, without regular reminders, without the things that organized religion offers.
So while a large majority of W&T members have this self-discipline and/or commitment to Christ, I would suggest that only a small minority of the general population would do these types of selfless acts regularly and on an ongoing basis without regular, weekly reminders and encouragement. And close to 100% of children and youth would do these things without reminders, prodding, etc.
Some of us say “I want to do it my way” but Christ says, “I am the way. Follow me.” Christ organized a church when He was here and invited all to be baptized as members of His church. If that church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then join it and attend regularly. If that church is the Catholic church, attend it. If it’s Lutheran, Methodist, Pentacostal, Evangelical, … then attend regularly. Jesus wants us at church. Find one that teaches Christ and attend it.
familywomen’s comment was quite profound. I know this defies conventional thinking, but in my opinion those on the fringes of a faith community are frequently stronger spiritually and more comfortable with those of other faiths than those on the inside. Those on the social fringes often have a greater grasp of what is valuable in their belief system than those seated in the comfortable chairs in the church. I suppose that those on the fringes can more readily reach those in need and serve as actual covenant-keeping Christians than those figuring out which church calling or office is most prestigious. Unfortunately, those positioned on the social fringe often experience painful interactions with the those on the inside.
“McLaren contends the best place to be in a religious organization is somewhere on its edge, preferably just inside. Do you agree?”
Haha. Yes. He is quite right. I feel like I get special treatment all the time by being on the edge. If people know they can rely on you, they 1) give you more work to do and 2) can see results from you by sending you on guilt trips. I have repeatedly turned down callings and people asking me to do things like help out with primary or something. Guilt trips don’t work on me, either. And the leaders know that. So they treat me extra kindly instead. I can’t complain.
“What (or who) is keeping you in the church or driving you out?”
My wife and my family keep me on the fringes. I follow the path of least resistance, meaning it is just easier for me to casually attend and not create any stirs about doctrine or teachings. I push back only when an invitation, request, or demand crosses my line. But that has rarely happened. With my wife I have pushed back a couple of times claiming that 1) callings and participation to some extent require you to profess belief or at least it put you in a position where people around you assume that you believe as they do, 2) it is wrong to pretend to believe things you don’t, 3) church community is based on belief in the existence of a claimed reality to some degree and is not a bunch of feel-good metaphors (at the very least Jesus has to be real, otherwise there is no basis for the religion at all), 4) I have no reason to believe the most significant doctrines of the church on merit because apologists make bad arguments and their defenses of core beliefs have never gained any traction in any non-Mormon scholarly community, and 5) most members say they believe because of some feeling or special experience (not because of the truth claims on their merits), and I have never felt or experienced anything personally that I would interpret as incontrovertible evidence of the reality of church’s truth claims. My wife and I have found a way that works. I hope it continues to work.
On what is driving me out, there are many aspects of the culture that I find insufferable. In fact, I can only stomach church by attending a Spanish ward. I’ve been to a few English-ward activities in South Jordan and they’re really not my crowd. Even my somewhat believing but wanting-to-remain-active wife finds the culture in the English-wards in South Jordan somewhat jarring (too many folks, not all but many, are entitled whites and come off as unaccepting of other non-white cultures). But I guess all cultures have their benefits and downsides. The church’s non-transparency in finances I find troubling. But most of all, the church’s truth claims are simply too fantastic for me to stake any sort of belief in.
“Some of us say ‘I want to do it my way’ but Christ says, ‘I am the way. Follow me.'”
How exactly we follow Jesus has been the question of Christianity, and one that it has never fully answered, since the death of Jesus. For Christianity seemed to split almost from the beginning and remains significantly divided. If we were having this exchange in the 1980s or even 1990s, I can only imagine that you would be railing against the Protestant denominations as heretical and apostate. It would be unthinkable for you to even remotely consider the Catholic church as at all valid but would be more acceptable to think of it something that was close to satanic. It is only due to a general decline of participation and belief in organized religion that different denominations of Christianity have begun to see each other as allies in the fight against irreligion, none-ism, agnosticism, and atheism, which are on the rise in the US, especially among the younger populace. But I can’t see why someone couldn’t consider themselves to be following Jesus in their own interpretation and not be an adherent to any denomination.
JohnW: …” it is wrong to pretend to believe things you don’t.”
Excellent point. If everyone involved in a church was this honest, how many folks would be left. 😉
I used to think being on the edge was the thing to do but what I learned during Covid-19 is that no one what’s to listen to what I have to say, even if it agrees with the prophet. Now I figure I’d rather be alone than having to have nightmares about confronting fellow ward members about anything.
John W: “But I can’t see why someone couldn’t consider themselves to be following Jesus in their own interpretation and not be an adherent to any denomination.”
Yes I agree that this is possible and happens for lots of people. However, I’m arguing that organized religion has historically helped people “stick with it” for longer periods of time, and for many people, for their entire lives. I suppose to legitimately argue for this, I would need some statistics, studies, research, so maybe I’m not really arguing, it’s just my gut feeling that this is the case 😉
Also great point about the shift in the argument now as compared to the 80’s and 90’s. Today, it is less about which religion you choose and more about just choosing some religion, any religion, and be a faithful contributor. Any religion that fosters and teaches moral values is better than none at all.
bwbarnett, “I’m arguing that organized religion has historically helped people “stick with it” for longer periods of time”
I don’t disagree
How much do Christian churches today represent the core teachings of Christ’s ministry? So, why would we then make attending church a priority and why do we assume Christ wants us in church? Most all are Pharisaical organizations that amass wealth–a complete deal breaker by the standard of Christ’s teachings–and use it to centralize power and maintain boundaries. Hard pass.
Angela C – “We no longer make moral arguments.”
This is what I’m finally coming around to on my journey. With leader worship (equating prophets with Christ – “patently absurd”) there is precious little about right/wrong/let’s discuss. It’s about obedience vs. disobedience. And we can’t have any real discussion of moral issues in our history.
From OP: “But if you choose to leave, do it on good terms.” — Is this you or McLaren? Because I love the idea.
However, as I have been around discussions of faith transitions for those who leave the LDS Church, there is frequent reference (near inevitability??) of an “angry phase.” I don’t want to invalidate anyone else’s experience, but, as I look at myself (currently still “on the edge of inside”) and contemplate what might happen if I choose to leave the Church, I don’t foresee an angry phase. After your post, I might even go so far as to say that, should I end up choosing to leave, I aspire to do so amicably without the need for an angry phase.
If I were looking for further discussion, I might ask questions like these (recognizing the McLaren is speaking into a more generic Christian audience, where I am seeing this mostly through an LDS-centric lens):
1) Is an “angry phase” necessary or inevitable? Why or why not? What determines if one goes through an angry phase?
2) Is part of it whether one is leaving a “high demand” denomination/congregation or a “low demand” (LDS is definitely high demand)?
3) Because I am sometimes all about practical application, what can individuals and churches do so that it is easier for congregants to leave on good terms?
MrShorty- I think it’s standard advice in therapeutic communities to deal with life’s inevitable conflicts up front before resentments and misunderstanding develop, compound themselves and generalize beyond their actual sources. Following that advice I believe amicable departures certainly are possible.
I hope, if you decide to do that, it will work out that way for you. I’m sure with good planning, good intentions and some diligence and social graces you’ll achieve just that.
But let’s be fair to a group of pioneers (yes, I think they were indeed pioneers!) who left in the post Prop H8 era when enormous social pressures kept them attached far longer than was good for them and who faced a torrent of repercussions which could and often did includ loss of their marriages, jobs and their entire communities. Because of them that path became a road and the way is far easier now both for those who go and those who have to let them.
I wish you well in whatever choices you make. I hope those you encounter along the way will show equal grace.
McShorty: It’s McLaren’s advice, to which I agree.
Of course, you can’t control others’ response. In any group with exclusive truth claims there’s a high likelihood of some righteous fury expressed by those staying against those leaving.
jaredsbrother – “Most all are Pharisaical organizations that amass wealth–a complete deal breaker by the standard of Christ’s teachings–and use it to centralize power and maintain boundaries.”
I’m glad you said “Most all”. That means there must be some that are not Pharisaical and that do represent Christ’s core teachings. Why not seek out and attend those churches with our families or as individuals? I know how difficult it can be to carve out time to teach our children. In the past decade, we have done a few years of home schooling with some of our children. It was incredibly time consuming and a disruption to what we were accustomed to. Most of us outsource some of the teaching of our children. But where do they get regular Christian values from if not from church? Some of us have the discipline to teach these things regularly to our children. But even for those who do, why not add to that the insights and teachings of other Christian teachers?
Find a non-Pharisaical church, take an hour or two each Sunday and let someone else teach us and our families.
bwbarnett, There is something in your thinking that concerns me. Your insistence on finding churches that teach Christian values leaves out non- Christian churches and secular programs, such as Uplift, that teach universal moral values. This insistence on following “Christian” values seems , well, almost Pharisaical.
MrShorty’s questions:
1) Is an “angry phase” necessary or inevitable? Why or why not? What determines if one goes through an angry phase?
I didn’t expect an ‘angry phase’ after I left. I’d processed most of my issues while still attending regularly and I didn’t quit angry. But then I had an angry phase anyway. I did not vent it on anyone – mostly it stayed in my journal. Anger is a way of separating from something that caused harm. It puts distance between you and the source of the harm. It’s a protection, really, if you use it right. Anger can be destructive, but if you take it as a signal that something/someone hurt you and you’re never going to let that happen again, anger is actually a healthy phase in personal growth.
2) Is part of it whether one is leaving a “high demand” denomination/congregation or a “low demand” (LDS is definitely high demand)?
I’d guess anger is more common when leaving a ‘high demand’ religions just because it’s SO much more a part of your life. I’d sunk a lot of time, money and emotional energy into Church. I wish I had that money back. I wish I hadn’t wasted all that emotional energy feeling guilty that I couldn’t measure up. And all the time, of course. There were good things about Church, but I don’t think I would have been as angry if Church was just a place to be for a bit on Sundays, as compared to what it actually was.
3) Because I am sometimes all about practical application, what can individuals and churches do so that it is easier for congregants to leave on good terms?
My ward handled it well, and so did I. A few people came over to express love and concern. I listened to them, thanked them, and didn’t get into the real reasons I was leaving. My bishop heard the whole story, and just shared his own story about being inactive for a decade and asked me to stay in touch. No guilt at all. My visiting teachers still come over sometimes, and we chitchat about life and such. My home teacher checks in by text. I’m fine with all this – none of them are heavy handed or demanding. It’s just a connection, and I like having it. I think they’ve struck a good note. Stay in touch and don’t push.
Now a more general comment: When I first left, I fully intended to find another church to attend. I liked the Methodist church the most. Then Covid. I have no desire to go to any church now, and I don’t think much about Christ or Christianity anymore, other than checking in here and at other church blogs once in a while. However, the rest of my life has filled up with so many good things to do. My career puts me in a place where I can insist on fair treatment for the poor at times. I’ve got friends who need financial help and I can help. I’ve got some hobbies that other people view as miraculous skills and they’re so happy when I make them something. None of this is stuff that I would have considered “Christlike service” in my Mormon years, yet it feels GOOD, like deep down, real connection with people GOOD. From Church, I picked up the idea that true service meant you hated what you were doing (a widow’s yard work) and true worship meant being bored in a meeting and true sacrifice meant handing over money to an organization rather than to someone who genuinely needed it.
Christianity feels manipulative now — look how much Christ suffered for you! To show how grateful you are, you need to jump through these hoops and follow these rules. Well no. Something I’ve found is that the ‘natural man’ is not an enemy to God. I like helping people. What I naturally enjoy doing is actually decent stuff and it makes the world a better place. I don’t need someone constantly telling me how I should make the world a better place; I just need to follow my own instincts.
This is kind of a reply to bwbarnett. Not really a disagreement, just a different way of looking at things. I agree that organized religion can absolutely help people give some structure to their innate desire to help others and be good. So this isn’t criticizing your comments at all.
I guess it’s more of a pushback against John Charity Spring (who hasn’t been here in a while), and his insistence that religion is the only thing standing between us and a blood-soaked orgy of murder, drugs and sex. I mean, personally I’ve already killed everyone I want to kill (which is no one) and taken all the drugs I want to take (doctor prescribed) and slept with everyone I’m ever going to have sex with (my husband). I am now a lawless apostate, and I’m quite well-behaved, thank you.
Anyway, one of the neat side effects of leaving organized religion is that I got to discover who I was when no one was telling me exactly how to be good. I am good in different ways than I ever thought, but the great thing is that it doesn’t exhaust me. I’m not going to burn out the way I burned out of church callings, because I’m doing good things that align with my own personal values and talents.
So here’s a quote that really made me think and reevaluate whether I truly believe that “the natural man is an enemy to God”. I pulled it off Tumblr:
people talk all the time about “primal instincts” and it’s usually about violence or sexual temptations or something, but your humanity comes with a lot of different stuff that we do without really thinking about, that we do without being told to or prompted to
your average human comes pre-installed with instincts to:
Befriend
Tell story
Make Thing
Investigate
Share knowledge
Laugh
Sing
Dance
Empathize with
Create
we are chalk full of survival instincts that revolve around connecting to others and making things with our hands
your primal instincts are not bathed in blood- they are layered in people telling stories to each other around a fire over and over and putting devices together through trial and error over and over and reaching for someone and something every moment of the way
~“Your primal instincts are not bathed in blood.”
My god this is beautiful. Such a refreshing change of pace to the constant glorification of instinctual human violence.
Does McLaren ever consider that there are multiple “off the shelf” religions out there? Or that it is possible to “roll your own” (as the neo-pagans do)? It’s not just (Evangelical) Christianity or nothing. I suppose the idea is that most of his readers will have an ancestral connection to it, but how salient is that as a basis for making decisions? We don’t get all upset when we read that the Freemasons, Rotary Club, and Boy Scouts are declining in popularity.
McLaren has come a long, long way from his Evangelical beginnings and now celebrates the validity of far more religions than just Christianity. As well, there are good, decent, moral atheists and agnostics. Maybe we can learn how to get along and make the world a better place.
MrShorty:
A therapist told my friend to expect to process leaving a high demand religion in years. For every decade you were in, expect a year of processing. Which means I’m still processing years later. I definitely had an angry phrase, but was lucky to have my wife and some close associates assist me in processing that anger. I still have not taken out that anger on the internet, my congregation, or my believing family. But for those whose anger is more pronounced, more clunky, and more visible, I simply presume they are processing alone. So I try and hold space for them. Anger is a valid emotion. But for those who can manage without an angry phase, even better.
bwbarnett: I live in Southern California. My neighbors are Mormon, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic, Jewish, or none of the above. They are ALL raising families with values. They may not write their values on a document and hang it on the wall like we do with the Family Proclamation, but I’m going to guess they convey those values to their children simply by living them. I mean, considering how small Mormonism is in the world, and how many good people there are, let’s at least agree that you can teach values outside the walls of a 70’s-style cinder-block chapel.
Amen! to Old Woman, Janey, Zla’od and Chadwick. And thank you for all those thoughtful and brave contributions!
@Old Woman – I was not intentionally trying to be insensitive or exclude non-Christian religions in my use of “Christian values”, but I can see how it has come across that way. Out of curiosity, can you provide me some “universal moral values” that are not “Christian values” just so I can understand what you’re referring to? I’m guessing if we made a semi-exhaustive list of both, there would be a huge overlap.
@Janey – Thanks for your reply. Always nice to have additional points of view to consider.
@Chadwick – Totally agree! Values can be taught outside church buildings. Sounds like you live in a wonderful neighborhood. You’re very fortunate.
BWB, some universal moral values
Help your family
Help your group
Help those less fortunate
Return favors
Divide resources evenly
Respect others property
Don’t try to impose your views on others
Don’t vote republican especially trump
Religion has caused many wars because they imposed their morals on the universal morality.
Some more universal moral values:
Men are the leaders, women should obey us.
Gays are bad.
Long boring rituals are good for your soul.
PS. Tedentious supernatural beliefs are a fine basis for a group identity.
I add a second Amen to alice. There have been some terrific, thoughtful comments here on this thread. Thanks to all.
I’d like to note why I stay:
1. Because I try to be an example of a believer who trusts science and knows history.
2. Because I enjoy ministering to people entering a faith crisis. (It’s rarely the Bishop.) I let them know that boundaries blur and that beautiful vistas open up after it subsides.
3. Because elements of LDS doctrine set my soul on fire.
4. Because as aggravating as my faith community is, I love them. Even the ones I avoid because they are untrustworthy or toxic. But the love I do feel defines me.
@Geoff
Most of these are Christian values as well.
Help your family
1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Help your group
Luke 10 – Parable of the good Samaritan
Help those less fortunate
Matt 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Return favors
Matt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them:
Respect others property
Philippians 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Don’t try to impose your views on others
Matt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
Divide resources evenly
Not exactly sure what is meant here. I suspect it is partially covered in helping of the less fortunate, but you probably mean something more than this, so this one may not be considered a “Christian value”.
Don’t vote republican especially trump
Haha! I would love to hear a non-Christian religious leader teaching his congregation this “value”.
@Zla’od
I’m assuming your list of “universal morals” are meant to be morals that you have witnessed in Christians, maybe specifically LDS people, and I can appreciate you sharing these. These are not “Christian values” as taught by Christ, but I know they show up in Christian society. They also show up in Jewish and Muslim societies, so it’s not just a Christian thing. Regardless of where they might show up, they are not good.
Yes BWB Christ taught universal truths, but they were universal truths before he taught them. They are not religious, gravity is a universal truth for example. Your conservative philosophy keeps wanting to own morality as religious. Religion often taints morality, as in Zla’ods examples of discrimination.
Don’t discriminate is a universal truth
Provide resources so individuals can achive their ambitions, especially for minorities.
Care for the earth v exploiting it for profit, another.
Thats why I included the republican/trump, so much immorality.
Geoff – I’m 100% onboard with universal truth and that universal truths existed prior to Christ teaching them. My point was that organized religion was one of the best institutions where these truths can be taught and re-taught regularly. Calling them Christian truths has led you, Old Woman, and others to assume I was claiming ownership via religion, my bad. Christ thought all of these universal truths, including the ones you have enumerated, were so important, that he organized an effort (a church) to teach them to everyone.
Regarding the republican/trump jab, as always it seems to me to be an unfair characterization of the masses based on the actions of a few. Immorality of all kinds, including the few you listed, are found everywhere, among all peoples, political parties, religions, races, etc. So calling out one group of people like that seems like you’re isolating these problems to this one group or even suggesting that the majority of these immoralities are due to conservatives in America. That’s a pretty poor claim in my estimation.
bwbarnett, I meant them as “universal” (well, more or less) across religions, not just within Christianity. Okay, there are a few exceptions (the CoC avoids a couple of these, as do UUs of course), and practical differences of emphasis (e.g. anti-gay rhetoric is not unknown in Buddhist tradition, but is mostly ignored, and gays tend to find Buddhism congenial). But there seems to be some sociological principle(s) that favor morally regressive religions.
I notice that many commenters still have TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome). Why is there so much focus on the previous White House buffoon when the current White House buffoon is doing so much damage? Even the Washington Post and NY Times acknowledge Biden is a disaster.
BWB, No, republican party now and trump are not like everyone else. Haven’t you been listening to the Jan 6 reports. This is much more than a jab, it is questioning a moral vacume.
Has there ever been a president who said he would not accept the result of the election unless he won? Effectively saying I want to be your dictator vote me in.
Has there ever been a president who tried to persuade governers to change the result?
Has there ever been a president who expected his vice president to change the result?
Has there ever been a president who incited an insurrection?
Has there ever been a president who refused to attend his successors inaugeration?
Has there ever been a republican party that refused to install a judge nominated by the previous president, and then stacked the court with ultra conservatives?
Trump had so alienated NATO, and befriended dictators like Putin that it is good Putin didn’t invade Ukraine while trump held power, he could very well have backed Putin.
Trump created division and discord, and undermined important institutions like the press, the health authorities, and the beaucracy generally. He also undermined relations with other allies.
The republicans have been redirecting wealth away from the ordinary people to the wealthy for 50 years. Top rate of tax was 70% in 70s, trump reduced again to 37%. Corporate tax rate was reduced to 46% by Raigan, to 21% by trump, but very few companies pay that. Morality?
Republican solution to Abortion is a disaster for women, and an attack on womens rights, especially the poor.
Trump was not moral and not comparable to democrats, and yet the majority of members did, not have the moral judgement to see this, and like you, try to normalize this behaviour. There are so many moral questions here, that seem to be accepted and he would again get members votes if he ran. Even voting republican without trump requires acceptance of so much that offends basic moraltity. Imagine voting to take services and money from people living in poverty to make wealthy more wealthy So yes every republican voter will be held accountable. And if they vote for trump again? Imagine justifying that at the judgement?
Enviromental vandalism, and underming attempts to organized saving the world from destruction by climate change. Are you having extreme weather, we are?
The republican party is so much further to the right than right wing parties in other first world countries and it’s followers more fanatical. But trump?
Geoff – I want the truth. I don’t know what that is right now. Nearly impossible to know the voices you can trust. If all the claims you spew against Trump and republicans are true, I want to know and voice my disdain along with you. But unlike you, I am not trusting the garbage churned out by the mass media nor even the people under oath testifying. The leaders of America, both republican and democrat, have all lied. I don’t necessarily want your claims to be false, I just want the truth. If I need to, I think I can muster an “I was wrong about Trump, the stolen election, the left agenda to impeach, etc.” I’m not so blindly committed to the right that I can’t admit error, at least I think I’m not.
The problem though is like I said, “How do we find out the truth?”. I’m afraid it may not come until Christ comes to set things straight. I also think we may have quite a bit to discuss before Biden’s term ends. We’ll see.
Geoff – Regarding all of your “Has there ever been” questions, I’ll add a few of my own which might explain some of yours.
Have you ever seen so much negative publicity from the MMM against a sitting president in his first 2 years that it:
– prevented him from doing much else but fight back against it?
caused enough people to vote Democrat so that they took over Congress?
Editing and accidentally submitted last one
Geoff – Regarding all of your “Has there ever been” questions, I’ll add a few of my own which might explain some of yours.
Have you ever seen so much negative publicity from the MMM against a sitting president in his first 2 years that it:
– prevented him from doing much else but fight back against it?
– caused enough people to vote Democrat so that they took over Congress?
Have you ever gone to bed during a presidential election where one candidate had a comfortable lead in 5 or 6 swing states and then woke up and ALL of those states were now in favor of the other candidate?
Have you ever seen a situation where most of the idiotic behavior of the winning presidential candidate and his family (son), are ignored by MMM and therefore nobody really knows about the true character of who they voted for?
Gotta go, maybe if I thought a bit more, I could come up with a few more. The impeachment stuff was a HUGE joke as well.
bwbarnett, you’re revealing your ignorance here. Republican pollsters (like all pollsters) know (and knew) that mail-in and absentee ballots lean Democratic and so those big swings were predicted to happen. Also, your later questions also apply to Trump and his family. What is happening here is that your comments further and further reveal that despite your protestations, you really don’t have much of a handle on ‘truth.’ You’ve clearly listened to too much RWM. You’re much more stuck in your bubble than you know. Quite revealing, actually. Thank you continuing your comments so we could see it.
BWB: Brian makes some excellent points. Thanks to the 1/6 Committee, we know Trump was told about absentee and mail-in ballots to be counted late but he chose to perpetuate a falsehood.
There may be times to engage in “both-sidesism” but this isn’t it. Trump chose to be 1st president in US history to violently rage against the peaceful transfer of power. That alone was a breach of his oath to uphold the Constitution.
And anyway, we’re getting WAY off topic for this thread.
@Brian “Thank you continuing your comments so we could see it.”
My pleasure 😉
“Have you ever gone to bed during a presidential election where one candidate had a comfortable lead in 5 or 6 swing states and then woke up and ALL of those states were now in favor of the other candidate?”
Actually yes I have. I went to bed in 2016 thinking Hillary Clinton was going to be our first (and long overdue) woman president, only to wake up and realize she did not win. The pollsters got it wrong. It happens to both sides.
@Chadwick The 2016 election does not compare at all. I didn’t ask if you went to bed thinking one thing and then woke up surprised to find another. I asked if you went to bed with your candidate having a comfortable lead in 5 or 6 swing states, then woke up to find that ALL of those swing states now favored the other candidate. Hillary’s situation was not like that at all. Yeah the pollsters got it wrong that year, but I was talking about pollsters with my “Have you ever” addition.
Timeline: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/08/presidential-election-updates-trump-clinton-news
Now it would be a similar thing if I had awoken the next day in 2016 to see that Hillary was in the lead in all the states where Trump had already won the night before.
Anyone who listens to the evidence of the Jan 6 hearings and can come to any other conclusion than that Trump fully intended to overthrow a properly and lawfully conducted election that unambiguously dismissed him is engaging in willful ignorance. Maybe there’s a more diplomatic way of putting it but I don’t know how to make overwhelming facts sound palatable to someone who chooses not to be swayed by them.
There are folks in this country who have allowed themselves to be lied to and manipulated. I’m tired of questioning if it’s a matter of naïveté or choice. I don’t care. I just won’t put up with it anymore.
I have grandchildren and I’d like them to grow up in a democracy that survived almost 250 years but won’t make it to that important anniversary if QAnon/Fox News/Trump and his white nationalists and Christian fundamentalists (all active parts of the same thing at this point) are not identified for what they are and stopped.
If you cannot accept election results, that says more about you than the process. It means you are a sore loser.
All of these swing states underwent election audits to validate their results. Many of these audits were conducted or overseen by conservatives/Trump supporters/Trump appointees.
But sure, we are all wrong and you are right. Makes total sense.
BWB:
I’m sorry to go all Jack Nicholson here, but apparently you can’t handle the truth
Haha, Rich 🙂 For me it’s more like I don’t know what/who to believe anymore. To be honest, the main reason I still question the election results is due to the Ezra’s Eagle prophecy in 2 Esdras chapters 11-12. It really has little to do with being a sore loser, naïveté, or that I don’t believe all the evidence. In the prophecy, Trump’s presidency is linked with a “short feather” of the eagle, which has been interpreted to mean that his presidency would be cut short by unnatural means. I was thinking his impeachment and subsequent removal from office would be this event, but it turns out he wasn’t removed from office. The prophecy continues by saying the next feather (president) would be away sooner than the previous, which has been interpreted to mean that Biden would not serve as long as Trump. So, if Biden serves a full four-year term, thus not serving for a shorter time than Trump like the prophecy says, then I’ll accept the 2020 election results! 😉
Oh, good lord, BWB, is this a joke?
No, not a joke. Calm down dude. I have my beliefs and you have yours.
You do, clearly, have your beliefs, but by posting things like this, you seem to be saying, “My beliefs deserve as much respect as yours.” And they just don’t. They are couched in irrational goggledygook that you cannot demonstrate any support for. So when you say that you just can’t figure out what the truth is about something like elections that incorporate a rational process to determine accuracy and truth, perhaps look back at your embrace of things like the Ezra’s Eaqle prophecy as an explanation for why truth seems to evade your grasp.
^ Exactly. If your best explanation for how Trump actually won the election is a highly dubious interpretation of an obscure prophecy in the Apocrypha, that’s just crazy talk and you haven’t a leg to stand on. That’s even past Four Seasons Landscaping and “release the Kraken” crazy. This is a case where the internet adage that sarcasm must be marked as such to be interpreted as such seems to strongly apply.
Thank you, jaredsbrother! Very well stated!
I agree that bwbarnett can hold whatever beliefs he cares to but to think that our democracy could be bound by beliefs like that — and I don’t think much of the MAGA process is different in kind or quality of thought — is nothing short of frightening! [PS I’m refraining from the strategic use of all caps but I hope the urgency is there.]
Do you know anything about the Ezra’s Eagle prophecy? A document originating from a dream received about 2500 years ago that describes pretty accurately a series of 16 US presidents, including FDRs 4-term presidency, a Constitutional amendment preventing anyone else from serving that long again, and JFK’s and Nixon’s prematurely ended presidencies. All these things in the right order. Then Trump’s prematurely ended presidency and finally Biden’s presidency that ends sooner than Trump’s. It seems like it is at least worth considering that these last two items could be true given the previous accuracy of the prophecy. I don’t think it is “irrational goggledygook”. What are the chances of getting these events correct prior to them occurring? Incredibly low! That’s why I’m still waiting to see.
“Rational’ is not usually a term that follows a statement like “A document originating from a dream’ that predicts the future. I mean, many, many religious beliefs (in all sorts of religions) are based on such things, but to imply those beliefs are ‘rational’ is something else. Perhaps ‘valid in the context of religious belief’ might work. But not rational. I mean, we’re talking about interpreting a metaphor here. Very tricky stuff, especially if it’s from a text 2,500 years old originating in a different language and culture. I bet an enormous amount of money, I could, with a little research, make that ‘prophecy’ be about the evolution of ice cream flavors, the history of board gaming, or the colonization of Africa. But I have three graduate degrees in literature and creative writing, so there’s that.
Well, I just read 2 Esdras 11-12. Can confirm that there’s a vision involving eagles, lions, and relative feather lengths. Chapter 12 interprets this as a string of future kings, some of whom have short reigns, some of whom die, etc.
To think that this obscure apocalyptic vision was given with the intent of predicting Donald Trump and Joe Biden’s presidencies requires not only a healthy dose of imagination (they’re not even kings!) but also the same hubris that all generations have possessed—the belief that our generation is the last one, that we are living in the end times. Daniel thought this way, Ezra thought this way, Jesus thought this way, Joseph Smith thought this way, and RMN thinks this way. They were all wrong.
To the people dunking on bwbarnett, come on folks. We who have sung about hieing to Kolob have no right to be throwing around words like “irrational gobbledegook.”
To bwbarnett, I would suggest letting go of this idea of Ezra’s Eagle and any other prophecies about the “last days.” They’re so nebulous that they’re more like Rorschach tests than any kind of actual wisdom. I don’t mean to sound condescending, you just seemed genuinely concerned about finding the truth. If you want the truth, I would suggest getting into science. It’s not as sexy as prophecy and such, but it will give you results that you can test, can fact-check, can repeat. And scientific thinking, when applied to social issues and politics, produces much better outcomes than relying on anecdotes, prophecies, and strong emotions. Science is responsible for every benefit we enjoy from the Enlightenment and it doesn’t get enough credit for strengthening our understanding not only of the physical universe, but the moral universe as well. Science is the best.
Thanks Kirkstall, I appreciate your response and approach.
“Then Trump’s prematurely ended presidency ”
Again, only you see it this way. For you, this matter is settled. That’s fine. But we don’t agree. He lost. He joins the ranks of one-term presidents. He’s not the first one-term president (that would be John Adams, 250 years ago), and he won’t be the last. That’s my prophetic prediction. Put that on your plate.
I’m also curious in what way Trump’s term in office was shortened.
He was impeached. Twice. For specific charges. We all are aware of that. But Republican members of the Senate refused — with the same sort of reasoning and rationalizations we’ve seen here — to remove him. So how was his full 4-year term shortened? And how does that fit the construct that we’re supposed to take seriously?
I’m of a mind with Brian that there are these devices — Ezra’s Eagle, Nostradamus, the I Ching, identifiable shapes in clouds — that we can force analogies from. But to interpret them as fact is to rely on the same level of reasoning (desperation?) that a child uses to hold onto the belief in Santa Claus. No matter if it’s just yourself you’re satisfying or soothing. Choose delusion for personal matters. But our democracy is at stake! One group after another has already been disenfranchised. Trump had to be talked down from measures that sound like martial law. This is no time for emotional validation of what we want to believe is true.
@ gesmith60, have you been watching the House January 6 Committee hearings? Former President Trump is. Or at least he’s reading the transcripts. They are enlightening.
@ bwbarnett, I am genuinely curious, where does one find interpretations such as for the one in 2 Esdras that you reference?
BWB curious does the present government serve 2 terms? Will trump be back? Is there anything else coming after 24 or 28? Do the feathers tell you that?
I agree that my one-paragraph description of the Ezra’s Eagle prophecy could sound looney, but I’m not looney. I think things through, weigh them out in my mind (against my standard Christian belief system), and try to determine reasonableness. I’m not some wacko gun-wielding, or even sign-wielding, Trumper yelling on a corner somewhere. I’m not passing out QAnon pamphlets.
There are a couple of people I’ve listened to, or read their books, regarding the Ezra’s Eagle prophecy – Michael Rush and James Prout. And like some of you have said, it’s NOT science, but a very reasonable interpretation has been suggested. There are no other interpretations that make sense, at least nobody has put one forth.
If you have no stomach for this type of thing, like Kirkstall, then yes it sounds like a silly “obscure apocalyptic vision”. And that’s fine. Pass it off as lunacy and move on. Or maybe just keep it in the back of your mind and if Biden does not make it through a full 4-year term, maybe have a look again at it.
Look, I’m not saying to anyone, not even close family members, that this thing is a lock. I’m not actively promulgating it with people I associate with. I mentioned it here only because it is why I’m still on the fence about the legitimacy of the 2020 election. I’m just watching it. I’m considering it.
@Sasso – my main resource has been Michael Rush. NOTE: He’s selling books, so some call it priestcraft. I believe he does have free audio versions?? I have a copy of his Remnant Shall Return book. If you’re in Utah and want to borrow it for free, I can make it available.
@alice – “I’m also curious in what way Trump’s term in office was shortened.” JFK’s term was cut short by a bullet. Nixon’s was cut short by resignation. Trump’s was cut short by a stolen election. At least that’s the suggestion based on Ezra’s Eagle.
@Geoff – The interpretation of the prophecy suggests that Biden will not serve as long as Trump (not a 4-year term) and that the next two feathers who would take his place, like the VP and Speaker of the House, will be stopped (killed) by the eagle heads that “wake up”. They have previously been sleeping. The three eagle heads will then assume control. Some think of them as 3 individuals, some think they are 3 countries.
Trump’s term was 4 years just like every other President.
The election was not stolen. I simply wasn’t no matter how many 2 year olds put their fingers in their ears and throw temper tantrums.
“Look, I’m not basing my claim that the election was stolen on factual evidence. I believe the election was stolen because of some 2,500 yr old text.” That is, in fact, lunacy. And dangerous as hell.
Just to be clear. This describes my own father very, very well: “I think things through, weigh them out in my mind (against my standard Christian belief system), and try to determine reasonableness. I’m not some wacko gun-wielding, or even sign-wielding, Trumper yelling on a corner somewhere. I’m not passing out QAnon pamphlets.”
These claim may seem to imply a sense of “rationality.” But here’s the rub: one can be a conspiracy theorist nonetheless. And we all know the Church has no shortage of them. And also that the debate continues as to whether such individuals are made or simply strengthened in such beliefs because of the Church. Indeed, the desire to be “in the know” is strong in the Church. The temple propagates it, of course. But being ‘in the know’ is also how conspiracies are formed, secret combinations are built, cults are organized, and radicals are made, all while convincing their followers that it’s all rational.
BWB, Do we all loose our free agency because of the interpretation of this passage?
Trump does not seem to figure in the future unless he is one of the heads that kill Kamala Harris and take over?
If that happens America is a dictatorship with trump as dictator? You can’t kill the president and take over in a democracy, can you?
Is that desirable and can you try to stop it, Or do you help it happen? Do you have any control/responsibility?
The other 2 heads could be china and russia. America is no longer the leader of the free world, the 3 dictator superpowers are working together?
Are you responsible to stop this happening, or has agency been replaced?
I worry that linking a 2,500 year old prophesy to today is actually intended to justify a religious, authoritarian take over of our government. Along with it, destroying the democratic republic that has allowed our pluralistic society to thrive, that ideally helps us recognize other people as our “brothers”, fellow children of God, all valued members of the human race.
An authoritarian take over should be absurd, but then we have the January 6 insurrection attempt right in front of us. Christian nationalism was strongly represented among the rioters. We have religious people embracing, even elevating a man who self identifies with several world dictators, a man who publicly mocks disabled people, a man who doesn’t pay his contractors, etc.
On Monday, the NPR program 1A (title refers to the First Amendment) reported on the Christian nationalism movement, something I find antithetical to the ideals of the America I grew up in. (Link to follow.)
On June 29, By Common Consent had a piece about how France became a secular nation. To paraphrase, secularism became the common, public solution that allowed people with religious differences, with a history of civil wars and violence and suppression, to be able to work and live compatibly. (Link follows.)
Respecting all is an aspirational value.
Studio 1A 7/11/2022:
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/11/1110949385/christian-nationalisms-influence-on-american-politics
By Common Consent 6/29/2022:
https://bycommonconsent.com/2022/06/29/a-french-perspective-on-secularism/
Geoff,
Here are some of my thoughts on your questions.
“Do we all lose our free agency because of the interpretation of this passage?”
Great question. People have been asking this question for thousands of years. Google something like “god’s foreknowledge and free will” and you’ll get lots of reading material on the subject. I tried to find a speech/article from Neal A Maxwell on the subject that I had read a few years ago, but I couldn’t find it. There was one called “Meeting the Challenges of Today” from him, which discussed this subject a bit, but it wasn’t the one I was hoping to find.
“Trump does not seem to figure in the future unless he is one of the heads that kill Kamala Harris and take over?”
My best guess is that he does not figure into the future. The three eagle heads being asleep up until Biden’s term ends suggests to me that Trump isn’t one of them.
“If that happens America is a dictatorship with trump as dictator? You can’t kill the president and take over in a democracy, can you?”
If Esdras’ dream is true and it actually was about last-days America, I believe the end of Biden’s presidency is the end of the American democracy, or at a minimum a severe change from what it is currently. If Esdras’ dream is “irrational goggledygook”, I suppose we’ll have 4 more years of Biden, or whoever steps up on the Democratic ticket.
“Is that desirable and can you try to stop it, Or do you help it happen? Do you have any control/responsibility?”
This question fits in with the question about free will and God’s foreknowledge, so it is highly philosophical and has been debated for a long time among people much smarter than I. If I believed that it was my responsibility to try to stop it from happening, any actions I took to prevent its occurrence would most likely land me in jail or dead on the side of the road somewhere. I don’t believe that is what God would want for me, so I’ll do what I can to prepare myself and my family. All that being said, an all-knowing God would also have foreseen my attempt, and perhaps thousands of others’ attempts to stop it and yet it still happened.
“The other 2 heads could be china and russia. America is no longer the leader of the free world, the 3 dictator superpowers are working together?”
You have to weave in the last-days prophecies of Daniel, Isaiah, John (Revelations), and others, but “yes” the USA as we know it today goes away in some fashion and the leader of the free world changes hands. Eventually the anti-christ or “stout horn” takes control.
“Are you responsible to stop this happening, or has agency been replaced?”
Again, part of the “free will vs God’s foreknowledge” discussion. I’m not sure if you wanted to engage here in this philosophical discussion or not? I’ve just done a small amount of reading on it over the last few years. Not sure I’m up for it, but your questions have definitely got me thinking about it again 😉
To me it is clear that trump and republicans are doing the undermining of democracy. Was there talk of democracy ending before trump? If the ezra thing doesn’t prove out you still have this reality to deal with.
Should you not at least be voting democrat at every opportunity to reduce the probability of this happening soon? If republicans control the house and senate after November are you closer to the end of democracy than if democrats control them?
We think very differently; I am a builder, I solve problems. I don’t understand how you think but it does not seem to solve problems? So no not interested in philosophical discussions. Looking for solutions.
I believe America can remain a democracy (and that would be best for America and the whole world) and as many Americans as possible should be voting to maintain that. There needs to be a stronger democrat majority after November to prevent a republican dictatorship. Can you help?
“To me it is clear that trump and republicans are doing the undermining of democracy.”
If I believed everything I here from the mass media, this might be clear to me too. But right now, it is not clear to me.
“Was there talk of democracy ending before trump?”
As far as I know, there have been warnings from the Apostles back when I was born in the ’60s. Maybe further back than that?? David O McKay and some with whom he associated talked about threats to our democracy. It has been a concern for a long time. Freedoms have been eroding slowly since that time, but have picked up more quickly in recent years.
“If the ezra thing doesn’t prove out you still have this reality to deal with.”
Absolutely!
“Should you not at least be voting democrat at every opportunity to reduce the probability of this happening soon? If republicans control the house and senate after November are you closer to the end of democracy than if democrats control them?”
Both republican and democrat leadership is corrupt at the highest levels. It seems like we have a choice, but we really don’t. It’s pretty much all corruption.
“Problem solver. Looking for solutions.”
Don’t get me wrong, I would love to keep American freedom and democracy alive. Right now though, I see it more like a jumbo jet taking a spinning nosedive with one wing broken off and the other wing on fire. So while it’s admirable to say you’re looking for solutions and that you’re a problem solver, good luck saving that plane. My efforts are more along the lines of bracing for impact, or making my way toward the exit door with my parachute ready to go. My point is that sometimes the problem isn’t solvable in the ways you might be thinking. Sometimes the crash is the only solution. Granted this viewpoint seems pretty dismal, but my hope is placed in what happens at some point after the crash – the REAL SOLUTION – Jesus Christ returns.
In other words, you prefer to curse the darkness instead of lighting a candle. Or perhaps you simply prefer to hoard rather than working towards a sustainable future?
“My efforts are more along the lines of bracing for impact, or making my way toward the exit door with my parachute ready to go. My point is that sometimes the problem isn’t solvable in the ways you might be thinking. Sometimes the crash is the only solution.”
Question to the W&T commentariat: On a scale of 1 to 10, how much does this quote sound like a 1/6 rioter?
(You’re not a 1/6 rioter, bwbarnett, but I bet that’s exactly the kind of thing most of them would say. What a dismal outlook you profess to have.)
@vajra2 – I prefer to light a candle, and I prefer to work towards a sustainable future. I’m not just sitting in my apocalypse bunker with all my hoarded supplies. I go about doing all the good I can, mainly among family, friends and community.
@Pontius – I think the consensus here is that the 1/6 rioters want to accelerate the plane crash and/or actively contribute to its demise. Thanks for saying “you’re not a 1/6 rioter, bwbarnett”. That is definitely true.
“What a dismal outlook you profess to have.” – Short-term yes, long-term no.
How would you categorize Mormon based on this passage?
Mormon 3:12 Behold, I had led them, notwithstanding their wickedness I had led them many times to battle, and had loved them, according to the love of God which was in me, with all my heart; and my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long for them; nevertheless, it was without faith, because of the hardness of their hearts.
He says he prayed for them, but it was without faith, probably also meaning that it was without hope. Mormon sensed something inevitable was going to happen. Dismal outlook??
For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors* do the same?
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?*
For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors* do the same?
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?*
What is your point in quoting that scripture vajra2?
bwb
If I believed everything I here from the mass media, this might be clear to me too. But right now, it is not clear to me.
This seems to be one of your main problems, so I assume these are some of the mass media:
New York Times started 1851
Washington post started 1877
ABC News started 1945
NBC started 1926
CNN started 1980
All of these have over the years been trusted because they present honest and balanced reporting and still do. Some of them have fact checking services where they ask independent experts to confirm what is true or not.
Now compare that to Fox News. Started in 1996 by Rupert Murdock who is an Australian media and Casino owner. Murdock who is one of the richest men in the world, is in divorce proceedings with his 4th wife who is 25 years his junior. He always supports the conservative candidate in an election, and does everything to undermine the progressives. He is being stripped of his right to run casinos in Aus because of integrity issues, and there are enquiries about his fitness to own media.
Murdock and Trump are made for each other. A team.
You are comparing the credibility of old media which has always provided honest and balanced reporting, with (Fox and similar) that provide biased commentary, and doubting those with the good record. If your right wing media source is britebart or some other just for now call them fox.
When the old media started fact checking what trump was saying rather than apologise for the mistake as other politicians have done in the past, he came up with “alternative facts” and then “fake news”. Fox supported trump in this. Trump has sought, with the support of Fox (biased media) to undermine the credibility of not only the established media, but many of the institutions of America society. You seem to have bought into the lies.
An example when watergate was exposed (before Fox news or trump) there was no talk of fake news, the old media were respected/believed, Nixon eventually left office. The media were not attacked, and nor should they be now when they report the truth, as they do.
Church leaders were talking about communism, and percieved threats to religious freedom, as the threat; not a republican party who if it continues to support trump is declaring the will of the people not important. No excuse.
There is no credible evidence the leadership of the democrat Biden government is corrupt. Biased news will seek to undermine but nothing credible. No excuse?
You can trust the old media, you can trust that the present government is trying to do its best for America, you can support that effort, or you can support those who no longer trust the people/democracy, and would implement a dictatorship instead.
Doing nothing but hoping for the second coming, is coppingout of your democratic responsibility. One side of politics is trying to keep America a democracy, the other is offering America the dictatorship. Stand up and be counted defending democracy! No excuses!
Geoff,
“honest and balanced reporting”
I’ll agree with honest (with a huge caveat*), but not balanced. My bigger concern though is what the “old media” chooses to NOT report on. I could provide a list of non-reported things, but I’ll forbear. It seems naïve to think that liberal media outlets, outlets owned/controlled by liberal people, don’t engage in the same tactics as media outlets owned/controlled by conservative people. I can admit this, can you?
* Regarding honesty though, it’s a strange kind of honesty. It’s an honesty whose purpose falls in line with the objectives and agendas of the owners. It’s not the whole truth, but just bits and pieces whose intention is to lead readers and listeners to false assumptions and conclusions. So, the bits and pieces are definitely true, but it makes it very easy and natural to come to false conclusions. Maybe “false” is too strong a word here. “Incomplete” maybe?? Not enough truth to make an accurate conclusion??
Hot off the presses!!
THE JERUSALEM TIMES (Owned/controlled by a wealthy Pharisee)
SELF-PROCLAIMED SON OF GOD SAVED OTHERS BUT COULD NOT SAVE HIMSELF
Jesus, a man who called himself the son of God, was sentenced to death and killed yesterday. Both believers and non-believers wondered why he could not save himself after hearing reports of him previously saving others. Regarding the reports of Jesus’s saving others, The Jerusalem Times has been unable to substantiate these reports. It should also be noted that during our investigation, we discovered that his parents are Joseph and Mary, calling into question his claim as the son of God.
LOYALTY OF JESUS’S CLOSEST ASSOCIATES IN QUESTION
It has been discovered that two of Jesus’s closest associates may not have been as loyal to his cause as one would expect, bringing into question for many people whether or not this new Christianity movement is for real. Judas Iscariot, one of Jesus’s apostles, turned him over to the authorities two nights ago. Another apostle, Peter, has been identified by three witnesses who contacted the Jerusalem Times after each had a short interaction with him. They testified as having seen Peter sneaking around in the shadows during Jesus’s questioning and trial. Then when they questioned Peter about his relationship with Jesus, he got angry and denied knowing him at all.
JESUS’S APOSTLES – “GONE A FISHING”
Merely a week after Jesus’s death, some of Jesus’s most faithful followers abandon their discipleship and return to their previous lives. Peter, Thomas, Nathaniel and two other disciples were seen entering a fishing boat last night. One eyewitness reported overhearing the five men talking about the death of their leader, Jesus. Shortly afterward, Thomas asked Peter, “What do we do now?” Peter responded, “I go a fishing”. Another witness commented, “I wouldn’t have expected this response from men who professed to be dedicated and committed followers of Jesus.”
Carefully selected bits and pieces of the truth woven together to lead the average reader to the wrong conclusions.
@bwbarnett So funny! Not your made up new releases (as I didn’t read those), but the funny claim at the end of your comment and the implications you are suggesting about yourself.
Brian, What am I implying about myself?
@bwbarnett, I thought of a less unflattering comparison of your words. Maybe you don’t sound like a 1/6 rioter, maybe you just sound like Hari Seldon in Isaac Asimov’s “Foundation”. Hari Seldon understands that the Galactic Empire will fall no matter what, and he sets about building a movement that will restore a successor state after a mere one millennium of chaos instead of thirty. He does this as a wise philosopher-priest-king through his magic superscience of psychohistory that predicts the future from the characteristics of human psychology and demography. In the real world, there is no psychohistory. It is impossible to predict and direct the future by means of psychohistory, and Donald J Trump is no wise philosopher-priest-king despite the most fervent admiration of his greatest supporters. We must work within the system we have, now, to stabilize the system we have, now. That means not voting for someone who did his darndest to violently overthrow a legal and lawful election, which would have ended nearly 250 years of democracy in the USA. I repeat, you are no Hari Seldon, and Trump isn’t either.
You claimed to be seeking the truth, but when told the truth you revert to trump facts which are lies.
So long as you are a minority America is reasably safe, but you and your family are sadly damaged
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