I have a crazy high kill count for someone who is not a professional.
In 2015, I was getting ready to go to the gym. I reached into the closet in the entry, picked up my sneakers, and recoiled in confusion as I felt something foreign brush against my wedding ring finger. Was it a burr caught in my shoe? A piece of glass? All these questions occurred in the split second before my hand exploded in pain. The sensation seared through me as though someone had slammed my hand in a car door repeatedly. That’s when it dawned on me that there was a scorpion in my left sneaker. I saw its tail retreat deeper into the shoe as it tried to hide from my imminent retaliation.
It’s been many years since then, and I’ve learned a lot about scorpions. I learned how to hunt them and kill them either in the freezer or the sun. I learned that flushing them doesn’t necessarily kill them as they can survive in water up to 40 days. I even donated some to a BYU researcher. I also learned that my house had a LOT of scorpions. They carry their babies on their backs, often as many as 30 scorplings to one adult. My largest kill night was 90 scorpions thanks to a prolific mating season. That was this summer.
We moved a month ago, and I discovered that our new house also has a lot of scorpions. They mostly live in the cinderblock walls and rocks that surround Arizona yards and neighborhoods. At first, I continued to cull the scorpion population, figuring I was keeping my family safe. It’s always been ostensibly about “protecting my family,” but it’s also been about revenge and about segregation, about not wanting to share “my” space with these little a-holes.
I have friends who are vegan for ethical reasons, and some of them have encouraged me to relocate the scorpions rather than kill them. I used to joke that I was happy to toss them into the neighbor’s yard. Driving a jar of scorpions into a desert preserve felt a little weird to me, and can you imagine if I accidentally spilled them in my car? But the ethical question of scorpiocide has weighed on me.
I started to notice that these creatures behaved a lot like my cats when I chased them with my glow-in-the-dark tweezers (for clarity, I don’t chase the cats with tweezers, but they are often easily startled). They were skittish. They didn’t want to be caught. They weren’t stupid. They knew the jig was up. In my jar of death, they would swarm over each other in rage, looking for an escape. The last time I caught one, a few weeks ago, it was still alive by noon the next day, so I took pity, and finally just tossed it over the wall into the runoff next to our property. It immediately perked up and ran into my wall again, relieved to be out of the murderous sun.[1]
In addition to more scorpions, my new neighborhood also has a lot more Trump supporters. Even yesterday, we were surprised to see a very long “Trump train” of trucks and cars roll past as we drove home.[2] This election season has been fraught as I’ve seen them in every store, every restaurant, and while entering the home and garden show, heard one of them shout-whispering through his mandatory mask to the entering crowd “Covid isn’t ree-al!” It’s been hard to get the gumption to go to a new ward in an area so full of people whose values and perception of reality I reject. Seeing Utah’s election results was both an embarrassment and completely dispiriting, particularly in the wake of Mike Lee’s foolish statements, Covid-spreading, and comparing Trump to Captain Moroni.[3]
Before the election, being surrounded by all these Trump supporters reminded me of something someone said in an interview I listened to. This person was a white Christian nationalist. The interviewer asked if she would rather all votes be counted, even if that meant she lost, or was it more important to hold onto power, even through anti-democratic means. She paused in reflection and said in crushing honesty, “I’m not sure. I guess that’s something I will have to think about.”
I thought about that often throughout this election, and I had decided that if the majority of Americans (well, electoral votes anyway, since we all knew the actual majority of Americans would vote Biden Harris) voted for a second Trump term, I would accept that rather than wishing we could subvert democracy. The will of the people is the basis for our government, even when those people are fearful, foolish or engorged on soothing propaganda, as people often are. For me, it wasn’t really a question. The votes are the votes. If you can’t persuade voters, you don’t win. That’s what I’ve believed my whole life.
After the election as the red mirage was turning blue in battleground states, including ours, we stopped at Red Robin for an early plexiglass-separated dinner. When I walked through the restaurant, I noticed that the mood was similar to the mood in my scorpion cup. There was hostility, fear, and desperation.
A couple sitting near us was talking about their anger over the election and another woman sitting across from them jumped into their conversation, upset that Arizona might vote blue, not believing that it was even possible that such a thing could happen. She said she didn’t like to talk about these things in front of her son, who looked to be about ten years old, and then she continued to tersely talk about them to these strangers. When I got up to go to the restroom, I passed a man in a MAGA hat staring defiantly at the TV screen. I saw another couple sitting side by side in a booth [4] watching the results come in with a nervous tension in their faces, seeing their candidate’s slipping lead. I was part of the silent barely-majority that quietly walked through their midst without standing up and shouting “I voted Biden Harris! You aren’t the only people in this state!” I didn’t have a flag on my car or a bumper sticker or a tee shirt or a hat. I didn’t look any different on the outside.
I have friends for whom their fellow Church members’ support of Trump has been the straw that broke the camel’s back. They won’t be going back. I feel similarly most days. Seeing the Utah results is a terrible reflection on the Church, although obviously the membership is not a monolith (whether the Church wants it to be or not). It’s hard to square that with the scripture “By their fruits, ye shall know them.” Mostly, I know that if my first impression of them is based on their anger over losing this election, I will never be able to get past that to a place where I see them as friends and fellow disciples. And Mormons in general did turn out for Trump yet again. He garnered 71% of the Mormon vote, according to this poll, which was only smaller than his support among Evangelicals of 81% (my new area of Phoenix is right by the largest Evangelical campus in the state).
For many of the president’s followers, the past four years have been one long, quasi-religious exercise in suspending disbelief. To adhere to the Church of Trumpism was to reject anything that might challenge its orthodoxies. The news was fake. The polls were fake. The investigations and scandals and fact-checks were fake. It only stood to reason that if Trump lost his bid for reelection, the defeat would be fake as well. . .
The question of whether Trumpism has a long-term future in the GOP will be debated at length in the coming months. What’s certain is that it won’t be vanquished by Trump’s impending defeat alone—if anything, his most devoted supporters may be further radicalized.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/11/trump-bannon-election-party/617020/
There’s been a call to give Trump supporters the space they need to grieve as we all needed to grieve in 2016. A difference that’s been pointed out is that they are grieving losing their ability to discriminate against marginalized groups without being called out; they are upset about loss of privilege. Nevertheless, I am pretty sure most of them don’t see it that way. They would describe their views very differently. That probably matters, whether it’s accurate or not.
But it’s also clear that many, Trump included, are still in the denial phase of grieving. When Mitch McConnell and other Republicans say we are in a “republic” they mean that we have a system based on elite, minority rule, in their minds, the GOP. That’s kind of how the electoral college works. But we are also built on democratic principles. We believe that the votes of the people count, albeit with some weird caveats to just how they are counted. The word “republic” is definitely a dog whistle for upholding conservative power rather than pure democracy which involves winning in the marketplace of ideas and ensuring that everyone has a say in our government.
I was listening to a podcast with Ezra Klein talking about Biden’s growth over the years. One of his strengths that they discussed is that he really listens to others and assumes that nobody else is an idiot. He goes out to meet them where they are, literally waiting for them in the Senate gym or restaurants they frequent. He befriends those who see things differently and tries to ensure they can also get what they want in a deal.
At the 2013 White House Correspondents Association Dinner, Obama outlined the state of affairs with McConnell: “Some folks still don’t think I spend enough time with Congress. ‘Why don’t you get a drink with Mitch McConnell?’ they ask. Really? Why don’t you get a drink with Mitch McConnell?”
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-06-22/the-obama-mcconnell-relationship-demonstrates-washington-gridlock
By contrast, Biden was willing to befriend McConnell (?). [6] He’s made friends with all kinds of people he fundamentally disagrees with. He believes in relationships, not just in ideological purity. He has repeatedly said he’ll be a President for all Americans, whether they voted for him or not, that this is the job.
It’s politics, so I understand skepticism about his sincerity. We’ve had four years of a President saying the opposite of that, withholding aid from “blue states” and whipping up fear of liberals, creating two Americas. He didn’t create that from nothing, but he made the rift wider than it was by saying the quiet part out loud and spreading disinformation and conspiracy theories.
I deliberately didn’t look at the Next Door app in the days during the election count, but when I finally did, I was somewhat pleasantly surprised. Before the election, nearly all the posts were about Trump supporters getting together, buying merch, putting up signs, being mad at people with Biden Harris signs, and a lot of bickering about marijuana legislation. After the election, I mostly saw people saying “Hey, it’s time to come together. Let’s move on. We are neighbors after all. We have more in common with each other than with any rich politician.” It was better than I expected. It was a totally different vibe than in that very red Red Robin. Maybe these folks were Biden Harris supporters, maybe they were Trump supporters who were over it. Maybe they’ve reversed course now and are storming the capital demanding a recount.
I don’t know if we can really heal as a nation from the last four years. There’s a lot of work to do. I have less hope that we can heal as a Church given the overwhelmingly open support of Trump in our congregations, and the tendency to vilify those who vote Democrat that has only gotten more common in the last four years. Even with friends with established relationships, it wasn’t easy to hear some of their justifications and beliefs that were so out of step with my own, to realize just how little we had in common after all. It was even harder to get past some of the conspiracy theorist beliefs being espoused openly. If they are gullible enough to believe that, what does it say about our Church’s narratives? Trying to build a relationship in a Trump-heavy place where we don’t know anyone feels futile and unappealing. I’m not sure it’s worth it.[5] Pres. Oaks expressed that members should abide by election results, even if they don’t like them. While obviously I agree and was prepared to do so, the fact that so many Church members don’t like the result, and the degree to which some of them don’t like it, is still a problem for me. A big one.
- What has post-election felt like in your area? In your ward?
- Do you think we can get past these political divides and come together? How long do you think it will take for more unity as Americans? What will it take to get there?
- What does this election, combined with the pandemic, bode for the Church? Has it had any effect on your view of the Church?
Discuss.
[1] Like vampires, scorpions can’t survive in direct sunlight.
[2] Don’t they know they lost? No, they don’t.
[3] Although in fairness, both Trump and Captain Moroni do seem like poster boys for toxic masculinity.
[4] Always seriously weird to me. Just sit across the table from each other like normal people.
[5] I’m actually enjoying the lawsuit spectacle which I don’t expect to bear fruit for conservatives, but it only drags out this non-healing period, and further erodes my respect for those who believe some of the crazy, easily-debunked claims Trump is making.
[6] Which sounds a lot like befriending Emperor Palpatine to me.
Wheat & Tares 
I do not live in the west or in a red state, and have not had any experience similar to your Red Robin episode. There are always disappointed people after an election — but the anger we have seen following this election (and the last one) is scary to me, as it puts our republic at risk.
Regarding fellow citizens, including fellow Saints (but excluding scorpions), I see a good example in Abraham Lincoln’s thought of “…with malice toward none; with charity for all…” I think this is the best course, although in no way does our circumstance today compare to the national trauma of the civil war (really, there is no comparison). I recommended this after the 2016 election, and I recommend it again now. The message is universal, for all Americans of whatever political preference.
Living in the Phoenix area I have many scorpions around my home. My son was stung twice in one night by one that crawled in his bed. I’m environmentally conscious but draw the line w scorpions. I completely redid the landscaping to make it less scorpion friendly and I kill them when given the chance.
Where I live is 50/50 blue / red. The difficulty for me is not only the church but also my family (parents and siblings), who are all-in Trumpists. I don’t want to have Thanksgiving with them because of Covid but I can imagine them thinking “it figures that our liberal son/brother is too stuck up and fearful to eat dinner w us.” It goes way beyond church.
I do wonder how the Q15 voted but I probably don’t want to know. With so many LDS voting Trump it makes me worry about the future of the church. I’m trying to adopt the attitude that dissenting voices are needed now more than ever but it gets tiresome.
I almost didn’t finish reading your article, Hawkgirl, because I was so creeped out by the Scorpions. But I’m so glad I hung in there.
I am in Utah County central. I am in the heart of Trump country. I am so disillusioned with the church members, neighbors, etc. Talk about sore losers.
My next door neighbor’s husband is in our bishopric. Her facebook comments have been so over the top. I pat myself on the back for not making any comments to her posts, including conspiracy theories, what a wonderful man Trump is, etc., etc. Then the election results became known. Her next fb post was more conspiracy theory nonsense, that the votes were miscounted, Biden has dementia (and she feels so sorry for him), and that oil prices would soar. This was one of many posts. I finally had enough. I bit back and told her that it was a time to heal, a time to be positive, a time to look forward to a change and a chance to start over. I immediately felt guilt for commenting on HER fb page. So I will be taking a hiatus from fb to give myself a break. Oh, and she plays the organ in sacrament meeting. I’m not sure if she had anything to do with the song choice last Sunday, but I’ll bet she did: “Master the Tempest is Raging”. LOL
In the meantime, church last Sunday. I got there early to get my usual spot for my husband and I (last row). In walks one of our ward’s finest. His MAGA hat, bandana on this face, and farm jacket. He sat and then immediately pulled the bandana down around his neck. No covering the mouth or nose for this gun-toting dude. Plus, he always has a toothpick hanging out his mouth, so I’m sure the facemask thing has been a real problem when part of your apparel is a toothpick. Of course I let it bother me. He sat in front of us (one row mandatorily empty in between), bandana down around his neck, and coughed his dry, hacky cough the entire time.
I am tired of the anger. I am tired of “turning the other cheek”. I am tired of a current President who won’t grow up, grow a set , and get his fanny on the road to his compound in Florida. Malania will head to New York, I’m sure. I can’t wait to read her book when the two part ways.
I am embarrassed by how this has turned out. We are the laughing stock of the world. I am bewildered that so many (about half) of the country seem to think Trump is a hero. I just don’t get it.
I don’t know if we can heal. I hope for a change and wish President-Elect Biden the best as he tries to fix a country divided.
A church divided is also a reality. I grew up in Utah County central. I have only lived in Utah or Wyoming. And southwestern Wyoming is more LDS-concentrated than Utah. I would LOVE to live in an LDS-area where there was diversity, differing opinions, and non-judgment.
Enough of my rambling. Onward, ever onward.
I feel like the burden is always placed on the liberals and Democrats to extend the olive branch. Can we not expect that of conservatives? This time I’m waiting for the Trump-supporters to extend an olive branch to me and other liberals.
I differentiate between conservatives who reluctantly voted for Trump and the Trump cultists. The former group I think we can move forward with, the latter group we cannot. I hope we can push the Trump cultists back to the margins and the fringe where they came from and where they belong.
Moving forward, let’s never stop emphasizing the importance of the constitution which outlines how the government is to be chosen and how power transitions are to take place. For the Trump supporters claim to be the true representatives of the US constitution. And they simply cannot claim to be such if they think that Trump should still be in power after January 20, 2021. If he is, he is there illegitimately and unconstitutionally.
Yeah. Just yeah. America has a problem because of Trump and Trumpism. The LDS Church has a problem because Trumpism has bled over into Mormonism. It’s the bitter fruit of the long trend of politicizing the Church that the leadership has unwittingly pursued. The “Democrats are not welcome in the Church” line that conservative Mormons have mouthed on Sunday from time to time has suddenly become a reality. It is all very sad and tragic, both for America and for the LDS Church. Biden can fix America. I’m not sure anyone can fix the Church.
I’m far more concerned about the national security breech the Trump administration is creating by failing to cooperate in a transition to the Biden administration. Trump and his toadies are deliberately creating the conditions in which we are the scorpions in the jar awaiting a fate that’s out of our control and not likely to turn out well. …but then this is the same administration that’s spent the last year shouting that Covid is a hoax. …a “hoax” which nearly a quarter million Americans have died from.
How do we learn to live and let live with people who have made the specific choice to immunize themselves from reality? I really do not know the answer to that question.
Fellow Arizonan and our experience mirrors yours. We voted Biden/Harris and tend to vote for more moderate to progressive candidates. We absolutely are the black sheep of our Ward. Our Ward is overtly political, not shy about it and very involved. Elected politicians reside in our Ward and Stake. Sunday School often devolves to politics. It’s truly very difficult to bear. My wife and I often just have to tune out and read a book while shaking our heads for speaking out against would isolate us even further. We haven’t been to church since Sac Mtg started back up due to health concerns and also the fact that not everyone in the congregation are wearing masks while attending.
I went down the rabbit hole of a political fb post of a former Stake Pres the other night and was just disgusted by the behavior, views, conspiracy and vitriol being spewed by fellow members. It was very disappointing.
Our sincere question is how do we return to worship with and serve side by side with these people? It’s a real conundrum…
Susan,
Where I am, masks are required for limited-attendance sacrament meetings. I don’t know if it is the bishop personally (he is a physician) or direction from above, but I agree. To me, a person with a cough (even from emphysema or bronchitis) should not attend public meetings. If your bishop will do nothing, my thought would be to go home myself — that would be honorable.
In my brother’s ward far away, his bishop has received revelation that his ward should resume in-person second-hour meetings. There is not unanimity on the ward council for this action, but as I said, the bishop has received revelation. And, his bishop says he doesn’t need the stake president’s permission to resume in-person second-hour meetings. Oh, and they don’t mandate masks, either. So my brother has some dissonance regarding his family’s Sunday attendance. He wants to be loyal, but he also wants to be reasonable. If it were me, I simply would not attend (remember, the First Presidency still allows individuals to stay home even if local meetings resume) — but he thinks a little differently than I do.
Each of us has to make our own decisions, even while others are making their own decisions. I think this is good — messy for right now, but good for the long-term health of the church. And it goes along with what President Nelson has been saying about how each of us needs to get our own personal revelation (even while others are receiving their own personal revelation).
Lucky for us we’re not bound by the errors of the good rabbi. The Lord commands us to forgive all, irrespective of whether they’ve repented.
“Our sincere question is how do we return to worship with and serve side by side with these people? It’s a real conundrum…”
This is a fair question, and it being asked by people on both sides. I do not have a dispositive answer. But I’ll quote Abraham Lincoln again: “We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.”
I offer this with sincerity. Best wishes…
One conclusion I’ve drawn after reading this: I’m never moving to Arizona. Forget politics—scorpions are scary!
As a life-long conservative Republican and member of the Church, I think I can speak with some credibility when I criticize my fellow Republican Church members who blindly support Trump. Like John W. says above, there are Trump cultists and then there are Trump voters who reluctantly supported Trump. I understand the latter, I really do. If you’ve grown up a conservative and/or an active member of the Church, you’re probably going to have a really difficult time voting for a Dem for the first time in your life. Whether it’s abortion or some other issue, many Church members believe it’s their duty to vote straight R. Sad but true.
What I can not understand is the former, the Trump cultists. It’s hard for me to understand how otherwise rational and intelligent people can employ so much confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance in their world views. I know a couple of very intelligent, very accomplished older gentlemen who, up until now, I would have have trusted in almost any setting (Church, business, politics, etc.). But after talking with them about Trump, I’ve lost virtually all my trust in their judgement. They ignore the statements by and actions of Trump that they find unpleasant. They believe in every conspiracy theory against Trump. It’s really an amazing thing to watch.
Again, I am a Ronald Reagan Republican (OK maybe I’m a little more liberal on social issues but back in the 80s nobody was discussing gay marriage, etc.). What I’ve seen from some of my fellow LDS conservatives is truly shocking. Let me leave you with one final example of exactly what I am talking about:
I sent one of these two gentleman a link to the Mike Lee comments (via SL Trib) comparing Trump to Captain Moroni. My friend’s response? He said he was glad that the SL Tribune was going out of business. What????????
I think a fruitful question to ask is, “How could the church fix its unhealthy attachment to the GOP?” A few Sunday School lessons with quotes in the manual about there being good in both parties would help. The annual letter sent before elections could be more direct. (For example, “Members of the church should not vote ONLY based on one issue; just because a candidate is pro-life does not make them a better candidate. Members of the Church should consider the totality of a candidate’s platform.” ) Not that it would ever happen, but perhaps the best remedy would be to have a few General Authorities (who are not Elder Uchtdorf) stand in conference and declare who they voted for, explain why they voted the way they did, and end by stating, whether their candidate won or lost, that they accept the results of the election. A full-throated denunciation of cable news outlets like Fox News and CNN would also help
I am not even active, and it is still a problem among Mormon family. How do I have Thanksgiving with people who are out right out of touch with reality? I don’t want to be around their crazy conspiracy talk. I don’t want to be around people who believe that COVID is a big hoax, and where a mask is required, wear a mesh mask that won’t stop the spray from a cough, on purpose just to flaunt their rebellion against “libral rules.” I don’t want to hear one more, “How are y’all going to feel when it is proven that Trump won the election?” I am sick of keeping my mouth shut to avoid a fight while they feel perfectly free to run their trap about how Trump is going to save the world from socialists who run a pedophile ring. I am tired of being careful not to post anything political on Facebook because I don’t want to offend friends, while some of them bombard me with anti-vax lies and how there will be a micro chip put into the vaccine. I carefully bit my lip when the “Oh, COVID is no worse than the flu and if you eat right and exercise you won’t get it” got it. How can you continue to love someone who is a danger to your health? My husband and I are both high risk. We should not be around people who purposely ignore how infectious this new virus is. They have become the scorpions. To protect myself, I have to stay away. How do you continue to respect someone who is living in conspiracy theories? How do you trust someone who believes obvious lies? How do you even have a conversation when they like to tell you how evil people like you are, and don’t even realize that you are one of “them”?
I live in So-Cal, and it’s actually not clear to me who won my ward’s vote. Probably Trump, but I’m not sure. There is a group of vocal Trump supporters, but I’ve engaged with them on Facebook and received many private messages from other ward members who’ve appreciated my “voice of reason”. While I’m about as anti-Trump as you can get, I’ve tried not too be too combative and I don’t name-call, I resist sarcasm, and I direct my fire at arguments, not people. With few exceptions, I don’t think I’ve hurt my relationships with people. I think I’ve gotten away with that because of how long I’ve lived and served in the ward (ward cred). Besides, I’m a conservative (and I cannot fathom how a true conservative could vote for Trump).
I think it’s extremely important not to mistreat Trump supporters. I remember how awful I felt after 2016 and how I was treated (I had a family member call me a “snowflake”). I also remember how upset I was election night when the “blue wave” was nothing but fiction, and how scared and horrified I felt that Trump might actually win. I couldn’t sleep and rode my bike 76 miles the next morning, trying to move through my dark thoughts. It occurred to me that if I was so upset and so angry with people who hadn’t directly done me harm, how in the world could I actually be a Christian who could “turn the other cheek” and “love [my] enemies”? Good grief, there are Holocaust survivors who could forgive the guards that abused them, and I had such dark feelings for people who simply voted for a repugnant man? I’m better now (it sure helps that Trump has lost), but I really feel like Trump-supporters need to be left to grieve and sort through their feelings and that we should show kindness rather than contempt. But again, I’m a conservative and sympathize with some of their feelings if not their candidate.
Lastly, I am no Mike Lee fan, but when he said democracy is not the goal, I agree with that statement (if not whatever he meant by it). Democracy is tyranny of the majority. We installed a democracy in Iraq. They had democracy in Venezuela. Democracy, in and of itself, is not the goal. Democracy only works if the people who vote in the democracy are guided by the principles our founding fathers attempted to enshrine in the constitution and which have been perpetuated in its amendments. The rule of law is paramount, but eventually, it will be the principles that are shared within a democratic population that will determine whether it succeeds.
Will there be any healing? I sincerely doubt it. What incentive do GOP leaders have to make common cause with Biden when Trump policies (or lack of enthusiasm for Democratic priorities – or maybe both?) led to holding onto the Senate (I don’t think Democrats will be able to get voter turnout needed to win the Georgia special election) and gaining seats in the House? I’m sure they are debating amongst themselves who they can find who can energize voters like Trump without some of the self-destructive tendendies that cost Trump re-election. None of this screams “unity.”
Meanwhile, reading various stories in the wake of the Democratic Congressional call last week, it appears Democrats are thoroughly not on the same page with one another. Some, led by Ocasio-Cortez, want to push on with progressive ideas like the Green New Deal, remaking law enforcement, and expanding Medicare to all. Others like Abigail Spanberger from Virginia would like things like “socialism” and “defund the police” to disappear from Democratic talking points forever. Add to that calls from some liberal circles for a “Truth and Reconciliation” committee and identifying amd going after those who funded and supported Trump (I sincerely hope that is merely bluster) and the next few years don’t look too good for unity.
We have not been a country with a shared sense of values for a long time. I don’t expect that to change anytime soon.
Martin: Nice to meet a fellow cyclist! I’m more in the 10 miles / day range, but still, definitely my favorite way to stay active.
I am concerned about the anti-democratic statements made by conservatives, because there is already conservative bias baked into our democracy. When Republicans deliberately strategize to reduce voters through suppression, intimidation, mail stoppage, false claims of fraud, disinformation campaigns, and disenfranchisement, rather than trying to win through the marketplace of ideas, that’s when I have a problem with their behavior. Unfortunately, while Trump didn’t invent those things, he certainly expanded on them, and he (more than any other R leader in the past) said them aloud.
I think our ideal goal would be something close to 100% voter turnout by finding ways to make voting easier and more likely, use of public funding for campaigns (not donors and private funding), and far more reaching across the aisle to solve problems together. Obstructionism like McConnell’s, gerrymandering, profiteering, and the like are huge turnoffs to me. I’m interested in solutions that are progressive, but that involve the input of conservative thinkers to keep them smarter and better.
There was also an article explaining the huge Trump support among Mormons. It coincides with an overlap with White Christian Nationalism. IOW, Church members now are more like Evangelicals than they were when I was growing up, by a lot, despite the fact that Evangelicals would most certainly consider that Mormons aren’t Christian and don’t deserve the preferential treatment they themselves crave through this movement. White Christian Nationalism is a huge existential threat to our country, and even after Jan 20, it is an insidious force that will remain in politics in coming elections. We are ripe for more authoritarian populists in future. https://religioninpublic.blog/2020/11/10/latter-day-saint-support-for-trump-is-strongly-connected-to-christian-nationalism/?fbclid=IwAR2cL0apnu_j6fe6jOi8H_sbK_aruIK4DlcVuPs44JkGL39Eq4XPxPuIQf8
The tenets of WCN philosophy from the article include these beliefs:
1. The success of the United States is part of God’s plan. (Mormons 76% agreed, Evangelicals 85% agreed)
2. The federal govt should allow the display of religious symbols in public places. (Mormons 76%, Evangelicals 63%)
3. The federal govt should allow prayer in public schools. (Mormons 71%, Evangelicals 82%)
4. The federal govt should enforce the separation of Church & state. (Mormons 67%, Evangelicals 53%)
5. The federal govt should advocate Christian values. (Mormons 65%, Evangelicals 69%)
6. The federal govt should declare the United States a Christian nation. (Mormons 45%, Evangelicals 53%)
#1 is straight from the Book of Mormon, clearly a comfort to those 19th C folks who were taking native lands from indigenous people. In the wake of 2016, I’m not sure I can believe that one anymore. The only one of these things I agree with is #4, and the article explained that this is not because they agree that these should be two separate spheres allowing for a pluralistic society (as I believe), but that State should defer to / get out of the way of their religious mandates, even if those infringe on others’ rights (e.g. gay rights, reproductive rights of citizens not belonging to their faith). IOW, they believe it insofar as it preferences their views, not reins them in.
Sorry, not sorry for this comment:
After WWII the German people didn’t just “kiss and make up.” Citizens were required to view holocaust evidence. Falsehoods were corrected in schools and public forums and free speech was curtailed (Nazi propoganda became illegal). Germany had to be rebuild from the ground up, and that was the context used for essentially what was a massive cult de-programming. We aren’t at that rock bottom (yet), our technology/social media is a run-away freight train, free speech is a constitutional right, and like most churches and organizations- our church doesn’t want to touch this rift with a ten foot pole (despite having us sing “do what is right let the consequence follow” for decades).
At some point we are going to have to address the rift otherwise it’s going to fester and re-emerge stronger than before.
Loving our Trump-supporting neighbors does not mean conceding or compromising to the racism, hatred, “alternative facts”, etc. of the Trumpism. It means teaching them, standing up to them, and refusing to let it just be forgotten.
Godwin’s Law?
Ji,
Accusing Godwin’s doesn’t work anymore. The shoe fits.
Yep, it seems Godwin’s Law still holds.
Do you really see your “Trump-supporting neighbors” as your enemy? Like unto Nazis? Oh, my. I do not.
I prefer to see both sides as fellow citizens, fellow neighbors, and fellow Saints. I am hopeful that individuals on both sides will be charitable and gracious to the other. I am even hopeful that Mr. Biden’s inauguration committee will invite the Tabernacle Choir to sing at the festivities (if the virus situation allows for such) — I was supportive of the choir’s decision last inauguration, and will be this time, too. Be happy, Mortimer — your candidate won! And all citizens can celebrate the inauguration (with or without the choir) as evidence that our Constitutional process works, as it has every four years since the first presidential inauguration. No good comes from demonizing fellow Saints, whichever way it flows. I am hopeful that someone, anyone, on one side or the other, will show graciousness and help break this negative cycle we are in.
Above, I have been speaking of fellow Saints. I have not been speaking of Mr. Trump himself. I am much dismayed by his demeanor and his disparaging of our electoral process. He is still the president, but soon will no longer be. I hope for a smooth transition before and on inauguration day.
Angela, I agree that the tactics the GOP has employed to maintain power are completely unacceptable and is a big reason why I found Trump’s ascendancy to be so alarming. The GOP elevated party loyalty as their most important value back in the Gingrich days, and Trump simply took it to the level of mafia don. His cleaning house in the Defense Dept and Pentagon and installing loyal replacements worries me a great deal. I don’t THINK he has a chance to pull off a coup, but given the direction our country is headed, I could see the GOP’s next guy having an outside shot at it. Trump is still in office, and the damage he could do on his way out is enormous.
That said, I’ve never been sympathetic to the the “get out the vote” drives. Democrats have always been in favor of them because the greater the turnout, the better they’ve done. I’m not sure that’ll be the case going forward, judging from how the Dems got trounced in the biggest turnout ever (excepting Trump himself, of course). The fact is that a huge portion of our country hasn’t the foggiest notion what or who they’re voting for. A lot of them are simply soundbite or meme voters. California always has a huge number of propositions on the ballot put there by special interests that the average voter knows almost nothing about, and yet they quickly read a summary and pass judgment on billions of dollars of obligation bonds or the establishment or destruction of entire industries. If you’re not going to put in the time to know what it is you’re voting about, you shouldn’t vote. Period. Otherwise, you’re simply a dupe for whoever can best manipulate your short attention span. Part of the idea in a Republic is that you vote in representatives who you consider fair and civic-minded who are actually going to put in that time, and they’re supposed to make those decisions (ie., a representative to a legislature). The idea behind a constitutional republic is that rights of the minority are supposed to be preserved in spite of the wishes of the majority.
I think a great deal of the problem our country faces is the two-party system. I favor immediate run-off voting. A voter should rank each candidate in order of preference. If the results show her preferred candidate has fewer votes than two or more others, then her preferred candidate is dropped and her vote goes to her second choice candidate. If this candidate also has fewer votes than two or more remaining candidates, he is also dropped and her vote goes to her third choice. In this way, voters could vote for 3rd party candidates without “throwing away their vote”. Without worrying about “throwing away your vote”, I think we might be surprised how many 3rd party candidates would show up in state legislatures and eventually in the US House of Reps. That would weaken the two-party stranglehold and encourage good candidates to run who otherwise wouldn’t bother.
As for the WCN tenets, I think I agree with all of them except #6. But it’s a measured agreement, depending how they’re interpreted. It is absolutely possible to celebrate the history and culture of the majority without infringing on the rights of the minority, but you have to be very careful. I have no problem with the 10 commandments being posted in an Alabama courthouse, for example, if that’s what the majority of the people there want. I don’t consider that to be an establishment of religion. However, if there were persecution of a Hindu, say, for praying at before her Shiva figure, that would be unacceptable. That Hindu should be able to walk into that courthouse and receive equal treatment under constitutional law, and should not be offended that the cultural values and history are displayed on its walls. I’m obviously not a progressive.
IKE Ha-has anybody read that the Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey, you know? (Helen and Polly shake their heads no) I read this in the newspaper. (Waving his fist) We should go down there, get some guys together, you know, get some bricks and baseball bats and really explain things to ’em.
JERRY There was this devastating satirical piece on that on the Op-Ed page of the Times. It was devastating.
IKE W-e-e-ell, a satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point down there.
HELEN (Overlapping) Oh, but really biting satire is always better than physical force.
IKE But true physical force is always better with Nazis, uh … because it’s hard to satirize a guy with, uh, shiny boots on.
For me what is missing from a lot f the discourse is the reality that real people, with real concerns, chose Trump over Biden and only a percentage or two more chose Biden over Trump. These are not a separate group of “those people.” They are our neighbors, family and fellow saints. Instead of teaching them they are wrong, we should try learning from them. Why did they support Trump? What values do they see at risk under a Biden presidency? Why are those values so important to them? Neither side seems interested in learning, just teaching and resisting. Somebody has to start the conversation.
I have a colleague in North Carolina who is very liberal. Her response after the blue wave did not occur in her state was refreshing. She noted that Trump actually added to the percentage of minorities that voted for him in her state, then she reflected that obviously these people of color saw something in a man she knew was racist, and voted for him anyway. Instead of declaring they were just deluded, she recognized that maybe she was missing something that was valuable to those voters who disagreed with her position. I appreciated her humility in that moment. Too often we just dismiss ideas we don’t like and discredit those who believe them. Do we need to forget our differences? No, but we should take time to learn from our neighbors who disagree with us. Trump is a lightning rod, but there is a reason he is attractive to a lot of people that may not be due to racism or misogyny. It would go a long way to listen to those concerns and take them seriously. It is from a place of privilege that we believe we have the right to teach others how to think and believe, especially when we will not take the time to hear them and learn from their perspective.
9 November 2016 – Salt Lake City
News Release
First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Congratulate U.S. President-Elect
This would have been on the call of the media, like Bidens win is now.
I was thinking it would be good to have the church congratulate Biden on winning, and that might calm the voter fraud conspiracies. So I looked up to see if they did that kind of thing.
There was one on the 6th for Obama.
Perhaps as they have not, they to are waiting for a Trump victory? Or perhaps they don’t want to make conservative members choose whether they are members first or trump first? No other gods before them?
The Prime minister of Australia has congratulated Biden on his win, as have most other world leaders, including Israel, but not China or Russia.
My wife has had to block members here who think being a Trump supporter is part of being a good member, and continue to say he will win, and how evil the democrats are.
A little humor is needed, for goodness’ sake. In addition to making some serious and well-reasoned points, Hawkgrrrl’s post was actually funny, and I thank her for that. I enjoyed the humor of her noting that in addition to having to deal with more scorpions, she is having to deal with more Trump supporters in her neighborhood. Not a very subtle parallel, but actually rather apt , given the toxicity of the Trump Cult.
I lived in Asia for 14 years and had to deal with poisonous snakes. The thought of weighing the ethics of serpenticide never even crossed my mind.
So, as a person who is 68 years old, I voted for a D-e-m-o-c-r-a-t for the first time in my life, and breathed a sigh of relief when Biden won. (Have usually voted Republican, but voted twice for the Libertarian, and for Evan McMullin.). I do not understand the people who voted for Trump, because he is so awful. But almost 48 percent of Americans did.
It might be emotionally satisfying, a la Hillary Clinton, to regard Trump’s supporters as “deplorables.” But I guarantee it will not improve the divided nature of our Republic.
Liberals and progressives often have a problem with being gracious in victory, as is shown in many of the comments for this post. Defeated people (Trump’s supporters) know when they are despised, and then, lo and behold, the despisers wind up being shocked when the deplorables regain their strength, and wind up winning again at some future date.
Lincoln’s second inaugural address pointed the way for our Republic to survive. He gave it about one month before the South surrendered in the Civil War. He reminded us, with malice toward none, with charity toward all. Even toward the guy in Susan Brown’s sacrament service whom she described so vividly.
Let’s lighten up and be happy that Biden won.
(First, no way could/would I live with scorpions having free reign in my house. It’s not like scorpions are endangered and dying out are they? When we moved into our current house we had an earwig problem. The night an earwig fell from the wall above where I was sleeping and landed on my face was the beginning of the end for the earwigs. First, we tried taking care of it ourselves with stuff we purchased from the hardware store. Didn’t work. We then enlisted the help of a professional pest control company. That took care of it fast.)
I grew up in UT and left after graduating from college. The rest of my life I’ve lived on the east and west coasts.
For sure, no matter where I’ve lived, the majority of church members were conservative/Republican.
Years ago I started listening to right-wing am radio after hearing a discussion at Relief Society dinner/activity between 2 or 3 women and wondering if they were accurately interpreting/reporting what they had heard or if they had somehow misunderstood what they heard. I soon discovered, no, they were accurately reporting what was being said on their am radio programs, but unlike them, I was dismayed and disturbed about what was being said on those am radio programs. It is worse now with the advent of social media and the internet.
Not hard to find garbage and nonsense for the incurious and the uninformed.
We’ve had Zoom church for the past few months. Recently they began in-person meetings but are continuing the Zoom meetings. For sure I won’t resume attending until the pandemic is under control via dissemination of a vaccine. Though masks are mandated at church and in our state I know there are ward people who likely don’t follow the precautions when going about their lives (even though some of them are at extremely high risk of dying should they catch it).
I’m not sure about my relationship with the church going forward. Prop 8 was a hard one, especially where we live, when the Stk leadership thought it appropriate to use the Sunday meeting block to present material containing misleading and untrue information.
Now I’m wondering what organized religion has to offer society, if it doesn’t help people draw a line on unacceptable behavior, such that they turn a blind eye to it only because the person is on their “team.” Once again, the ends justifies any means. I also imagined that organized religion would stand for truth and honesty, fairness, charity, etc etc. There is no way I would vote for a person such as Trump even if he were on my “team.” He is and was just flat out unfit–and unsafe. When he got elected, I hoped he would prove me wrong, because, above all, I want our country, our society to be successful. It is shocking that so many have turned a blind eye to what he says, what he does. I don’t want to be associated with the church Mike Lee is promoting.
I’ve felt for a long while that our church stands more for the church institution than the principles it purportedly supports. Rarely is there a talk on the basics—like found in the Sermon on the Mount.
Instead, we preach obedience ad nauseam–to the Prophets. We’ve created a safe environment for authoritarians and their followers.
I do believe we can find some common ground with each other. The hard part is always where to draw the line when trying to solve problems. We won’t get there if we nurture our most extreme elements. I feel the Republican Party for years has been nurturing the extreme, culminating with the election of Trump. At least I hope he represents the bottom for the Republican Party–that they come back to their senses.
(I’m not too optimistic about that prospect. Maybe if they’d lost resoundingly–House, Senate and Presidency?)
Agree with Gilgamesh, was asking two partners in a business I work with if they had voted yet and who for and why? One thought Trump is better for business which is most likely true.
Personally I could never vote for Trump. I look for good moral values and good policies regardless of political party. Trump fails on both counts for me, but so do many democratic and Republican candidates for election
The liberals in my family know who we are and confine ourselves to hushed conversations at family gatherings and supportive private messages. My sister-in-law recently said that liberals don’t reveal themselves in Utah wards because they’re worried about being ostracized. I thought she was being understanding of our plight, but then she added, clueless of my political leanings, “They SHOULD be ostracized.” And then she treated our family to ice cream and dinner and an item from a gift shop I’d been eyeing. That gift is a beautiful reminder to me that there are more sides to her than the one who voted for Trump.
I remember being thoroughly disgusted with the conservatives who gloated after last election, and I’m disappointed that I see so much now from liberals (even while I laugh at the funnier memes). I’m trying to figure out what “mourn with those who mourn” means in this context, when I don’t even understand what Trumpers are mourning.
After years of torturing myself, I finally conceded to living in a liberal bubble and echo chamber by unfriending or blocking notifications from die-hard conservatives in the interest of both my sanity and preserving real-life relationships. I really can’t help but fact check their memes, and they’re never as appreciative of my services as I would like. And I realize I’d rather not know the extent to which my ward members vilify my kind.
I see posts from both sides saying, in effect, “We’ve been nice for too long; it’s time to play dirty like them.” The vitriol on both sides scares me. We need to stop treating the entire other side as if it were its worst representatives.
So nobody recognizes MANHATTAN?
Gilgamesh, I would love to understand why members vote for trump. When I ask all I get are vague references to gadianton robbers, references to conspirancy theories, and the only concrete one is abortion.
Can anyone clarify?
For many members of the Church, it was a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea (pun intended?). I would guess that most of the people who voted for Trump (which includes most members of my immediate and extended family) did so reluctantly even unwillingly but did so on the assumption that Trump would at least tacitly support a conservative agenda that is reflective of their values (even if Trump is not). In 2016, a colleague of mine that I respect tremendously told me he voted for Trump. He did so ruefully explaining his vote with two words: the Supreme Court. You might find that other members of the Church would be able to explain their votes fairly simply with words like ” repeal abortion”, “religious freedom” and “economic security.” Some people voted their eyes blinkered to the reality that was Trump but I’d be willing to bet that many voted looking at the reality of Trump squarely in the face, wincing as they marked his name on the ballot. Sure, there’s some blind adulation out there (there was for the Clintons as well during their heyday) but most of the people I know recognized Trump’s weaknesses and voted “Party” rather than “Man.”
I feel I need to start my comment by stating that I also voted for Biden this election and did not vote for Trump in 2016. Although I lean more conservative than many posters and commenters here, I have no love for Trump and his ilk. While I agree with much of what Angela wrote here, I was troubled by the following paragraph:
“There’s been a call to give Trump supporters the space they need to grieve as we all needed to grieve in 2016. A difference that’s been pointed out is that they are grieving losing their ability to discriminate against marginalized groups without being called out; they are upset about loss of privilege. Nevertheless, I am pretty sure most of them don’t see it that way. They would describe their views very differently. That probably matters, whether it’s accurate or not.”
Angela talks a lot about healing and getting past the damage that was done by Trump’s presidency, but how is that that possible if we are unwilling to accept that those we disagree with are being authentic? To me, Angela’s statement is no different than non-members saying they trust what their preacher says about Mormon beliefs more than what their Mormon friends say because Mormons don’t really know what they believe. Everything that Gilgamesh wrote is spot on but trying to understand the other side is a fruitless endeavor if we refuse to believe that the other side is being authentic and we think we understand their true beliefs and intentions better than they do.
I think the right should accept these next 4 years and behave exactly as the left behaved the past 4 years.
TC, there’s a big difference. The Democrats didn’t elect someone who wants to randomly tear apart our republic for personal gain. The GOP obstructed everything Obama tried to do. The GOP, even when they controlled the White House, the Senate, and the House, couldn’t agree with themselves on any significant legislation except for a tax cut for the wealthy. This is a party that has gone over the edge of insanity and is ready to throw everything out the window, and for what? A spoiled, narcissistic, corrupt demagogue. I’ve said it before, and I’ll keep saying it: I think most Latter-day Saints are more Republican than they are LDS, and their vote in this election proved it.
DB: When I say that those who voted for Trump may not be accurate in explaining their reasons why, that’s because 1) our reasons for our actions are nearly always post hoc justifications rather than our real reasons–it is very hard to really understand our reasons, and 2) in my discussions with friends whose votes don’t make sense to me, I am finding that many of their claims are inaccurate, and when I point out the flaws or the reasons or the bad source material, they become belligerent and double down.
Several people I’ve known for years have posted about abortion, but they’ve done so while spouting all kinds of misinformation from disreputable sites. They also ignore the statement that both Democrats and Republicans want fewer abortions, and that most people have common ground on this topic if we could just talk about the real issues. The caricature of Democrats murdering babies post-delivery is just too appealing to them. To Democrats, the caricature of Republicans creating a misogynist state that punishes and controls women is too appealing. I don’t know how we can get back to having rational discussions when it’s all about hating the other party and defending one’s own party.
One friend I know who fits this description voted Hillary in 2016, so something happened in the meantime to flip the switch, and I suspect it wasn’t really abortion. Sure enough, after the fact, I saw a post of his decrying something I knew he was upset about during the Obama years, that his health insurance rates went up due to pre-existing conditions being covered for other people. Well, that’s true for all of us as small business owners. It’s because we don’t work for a corporation that pays 50%+ of our premiums. That’s (IMO) because health insurance companies exist and charge the maximum they can while paying out the minimum they can, and it needs to be addressed through ACA reform, but it doesn’t mean that we should throw out the entire ACA protections for pre-existing conditions or that “Obama and the Dems” made his rates go up (he’s nearly 65, mind you). It means that we need to start having some grown up conversations about healthcare in this country, a thing nobody’s been willing to do. From where I’m sitting, if he wants reform, he can either vote Dem and hope they make the right reforms (not sure I think they will) or he can vote Trump, hope he makes good on his promise to get rid of the ACA and replace it with his non-existent plan. Since Trump has said he would get rid of coverage for pre-existing conditions, I’m personally not thrilled about that option, but I’m also not thrilled with healthcare being tied to one’s employment. I liked Bernie’s idea.
I do take my friend’s concerns seriously, and I care about these same things, but talking to him is fruitless. I’m reading between the lines to figure out what his real issues are. All I’m saying is that we can’t take people at their word for the substance of their reasons to vote for Trump. Trump makes visceral appeals that are hard for people to defend in a rational argument, but they cause them to pull the lever for him anyway.
A recent podcast I was listening to talked about why people enable demagogues, and the person being interviewed said it’s usually because they believe their view of democracy has already lost or is over, and so burning it all down is OK. Just because that fear is felt doesn’t make it real.
Angela and Martin are correct. “… we can’t take people at their word for the substance of their reasons to vote for Trump, ” AND “The fact is that a huge portion of our country hasn’t the foggiest notion what or who they’re voting for.”
It’s a brave new world. The Internet is Pandora’s box where the information is considered legitimate simply because it confirms my pre-existing beliefs and it appears bright and shiny before my dazzled eyes. Moving forward, as a society we have a real problem. Will there be reconciliation? Not a chance. Both sides think they are right, but one side is FAR more proficient at identifying BS and calling it out.
I’ve heard friends and acquaintances explain that they voted for Trump because they’re against socialism, because North Korea hasn’t tested a missile in a while, because he’s a Christian, because he tells it like it is, because he’s a successful businessman, because he isn’t taking a salary and is just president because he loves America, because he stopped illegal immigration, because he’s a fighter. They adopted those views because they heard them or read them somewhere and cannot think critically about whether or not they’re true. All of them require an asterisk and further explanation or are demonstrably false. Some people will admit that they think he’s an awful human being without acknowledging that it is a virtual impossibility to be that and still magnanimously offer up your skills to save the nation free of charge.
I heard an interesting NPR story a while back about standardized testing and how American students don’t perform all that well in comparison with kids in other developed economies. They mentioned that testing now goes beyond reading, writing, ‘rythmatic and includes critical thinking, specifically reading passages and separating news stories from opinion pieces. According to the article, only 15 percent of students could successfully distinguish one from the other.
Can we find a way to reconcile that does not at least acknowledge that much of the information available to us is crap and that both sides fervently believe the other side is shoveling it? I’m skeptical.
Wally,
Ah, we all have our reasons – good and bad, fake or real – for acting like rabid dogs, but a key difference here is the shoe is now on the other foot.
Angela:
Your observation that most people’s reasons for their actions are post hoc justifications is unfortunately all too accurate.
Most people’s explanations of their beliefs are also post hoc justifications for gut-level emotions often made at a tribal level. True for religion, also true for politics.
That is why attempts to persuade people that they are in error on a given issue almost always fail. One of my Stake Presidents (a man whom I did not like, but who was nevertheless quite clear-headed and practical) once told me that with some people, all you could do was to stand by and watch them self-destruct, then step in and help them pick up the pieces, afterwards. That remark made an impression on me that stuck. I am hoping that Biden’s election signals a slowing down of America’s self-destruction, and an attempt to pick up the pieces.
Quoting the English poet A. E. Housman:
To think that two and two are four,
And neither five nor three,
The heart of man has long been sore,
And like ‘tis long to be.
It is amazing that the human race has progressed at all.
Appreciated your comments:
70% of Republicans still believe Trump won the election. How can this be? Are they not able to find the facts? I guess they have been trained to accept unquestioningly what they are told by Trump, and they continue to accept his lies.
What happens when Biden is confirmed?
Geoff, if you read the article, first, it says that 70% of Republicans thought the elections were not “free and fair” not whether they thoughtTrump actually won. What percentage further thought Trump really won is not stated (at least in the source I found). The story also says that only 52% of Democratic voters believed the election would be “free and fair” when polled before the election. That magically jumped to 96% after the election. What that tells me is that Americans don’t like it when their candidate loses. Last time around, many Democrats blamed their loss on “Russian interference” that, when investigated, amounted to a bunch of Facebook ads when the simple fact was that Democrats ran a candidate who was deeply unpopular in large swaths of the country. This time around, it’s “voter fraud” even though the number of suspect ballots appear to be nowhere near enough to turn the election results in any of the currently contested states and the vote turnout is prettily easily explained by Trump’s knack for shooting himself in the foot on a range of issues. I’m sure there will be something for the loser to blame it on in 2024.
“ Last time around, many Democrats blamed their loss on “Russian interference” that, when investigated, amounted to a bunch of Facebook ads when the simple fact was that Democrats ran a candidate who was deeply unpopular”
Both were true.
Russians did interfere and Hillary was unpopular, and, I might add, the polls predicting she would win by a landslide very likely suppressed her vote as well.
Lois, no one is saying Russia didn’t interfere, but it’s more than fair to characterize that interference as feeble at best. Unfortunately, no one does election interference quite like the U.S. Just ask Latin America.
Geoff-Aus: I honestly can’t fathom how they believe that he won except that they hate Democrats and believe Trump without actually looking into his claims. Another factor may be that many staunch Conservatives have left mainstream social media for emerging alt-platforms that don’t fact-check / censor baseless claims. They are rife with unchecked conspiracy theories as a result. Here’s a rundown of the alt-social media platforms US Conservatives are flocking to:
Twitter = Parler
Facebook = MeWe & Gab (Facebook, run by Zuckerberg who is reviled by Dems)
YouTube = Rumble (srlsy, YouTube? Where you can watch 10 anti-vax vids in a row just by looking up “how vaccines work”??)
Fox News = AON & Newsmax (Yes, Fox News has been declared too liberal because they called AZ early).
FB Messenger = Signal Messenger
Google = Brave VPN and Duck Duck Go
So, remember how Russian bots created misinformation that spread like wildfire, and social media algorithms kept teeing up the pablum people clicked? Yeah, that times a million now, in a complete self-sealed echo chamber.
There was a time when my liberal friends supported these kinds of moves:
FB Messenger = Signal Messenger
Google = Brave VPN and Duck Duck Go
Don’t we have a responsibility to find truth? Thou shalt not bear false withess.
For God’s sake….give it a rest….