Last week, I did something I haven’t done since I was a teenager; I took an official BYU campus tour. Even though I graduated from BYU in 1992, as an alumnus living out of state, I have seldom been back to the campus. Some things have changed a lot, while other things were about the same. I couldn’t help but reminisce as we toured. There’s where I saw Au Revoir Les Enfants. There’s where I got in a fight with my roommate’s friend who owed me money. There’s that racist statue. There’s where my friend slid on the icy stairs, taking me out in the process along with two random strangers.
But the point of this series is to discuss why these unique Mormon practices exist, so back to business. Why does the Church operate a highly subsidized university? Here are some possibilities to consider:
Cheap Tuition. To make education affordable for church members, resulting in more grads and more financial success. Pres Benson famously said, “The world would take people out of the slums. Christ would take the slums out of people, and then they would take themselves out of the slums.” Education is one way to improve a person’s self-perception and their marketable skills in ways that will open opportunities for them that they previously didn’t envision. Those who are more jaded might interpret this a little differently:
- To increase tithing. Obviously if college grads earn more than non-grads, then they are higher contributors and don’t rely on the welfare system to the same degree. There could be a financial side benefit, even if this is not a main reason for the Church to want a higher educated membership.
- To improve church reputation. This is a big benefit of a higher educated congregation, especially since Pew keeps saying that conservative religions are usually less educated, implying that only rubes and buffoons would fall for that. Oh yeah, well our rubes and buffoons are college grads, so take that, Pew!
This one has a lot of support as we have many church leaders on record encouraging church members–of both sexes–to get as much education as possible. We also have expanded the satellite BYU campuses significantly to allow for more students, and added a lot of online courses for those unable to attend in person, particularly those in other countries or those returning to finish their education in adulthood. As my son explained it when he was taking an online BYU class, he was the only 20 year old male in a class of 50 year old housewives, but he found Dorothy and Karen totally relatable peers.
Religion Classes. To control educational content to the extent possible, particularly but not exclusively religious indoctrination. Most privately owned universities probably start this way; they have a vision of how they think higher education should be different from how it is elsewhere. My first job was at Church of the Brethren founded Elizabethtown College, and it didn’t seem like a very religious school when I was there. It’s original mission had probably been somewhat diluted over the century since its 1899 foundation. Religion classes are a feature of a BYU education (as our tour guide claimed, or some might say drawback…) that the school requires of all students. When I attended it was a total of 14 credit hours, designed so that most students would take one religion class per semester, and four of these needed to be related to the standard works, like seminary was. The core curriculum has changed since then, and there are 4 required classes: The Eternal Family (barf), Foundations of the Restoration (instead of D&C I guess?), Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel (there goes the New Testament class!), and Teachings and Doctrine of the Book of Mormon.
Students who transfer away from BYU always lament that these classes lack sufficient academic rigor to be counted at other schools, so they end up being lost credits (our tour guide pointed out that the most popular class is one on Judaism and Islam, which I suspect was the World Religions class when I attended, one that generally is transferable). That points to the notion that one purpose of running a Church-owned university is to continue the religious indoctrination that us done in seminary for high school students. But beyond its religion classes, all faculty at BYU are required to include “spiritual” content in their classes, regardless the subject matter, and they are evaluated on how well they accomplish this. For more secular topics, teachers would frequently set aside one class per semester to deliberately point out that they were meeting that requirement because the students are policing it, and if their evaluations say they didn’t do it, good luck getting tenure. And you’d better believe that there are some self-appointed spiritual Gestapo in every class, just waiting to trip up a teacher they think is insufficiently religious or espouses liberal views.
There’s a lot of evidence for ideological purity being a reason the Church runs BYU, particularly given the ratcheting up of ecclesiastical endorsements for both students and faculty since I attended. If not, if it were just that we value education, the Church has plenty of money to instead offer members tuition reimbursement or scholarships or other subsidies, regardless their university (which sounds like a pretty great idea if you ask me).
Mrs Degrees. To provide match-making for young Mormons, particularly those who grew up in areas with few Mormons to date or potentially marry. Otherwise, where would all those RMs go to find the hot wives their disgusting mission presidents promised them as a reward for faithful service? The school is very effective at pairing up spouses, and since Mormon culture never shuts up about marriage anymore, and since the Proclamation and so many in the Church assume that only women care for children while men earn the money to support the family, graduation rates at BYU reflect these assumptions. Although more women than men enter the school, more men by far graduate with a four year degree and more men go on to graduate level studies. For these reasons, sexist BYU co-ed jokes were the norm when I attended there, because apparently nothing is funnier than mocking women who are supposedly husband hunting under the guise of self-improvement and educational attainment. Hopefully, those are trends that have changed in the last few decades. I’ll be honest, I had a roommate at BYU who literally only had enough money for one semester, and her sole goal was to be engaged by the time her money ran out. She made it just under the wire, but our apartment was a never-ending rotation of random dudes being plied with Southern cooking and back massages. That was a weird semester.
Bringing a student body together that is 99% Mormon is one way to avoid the mixed faith marriages that are more likely to occur in a more religiously diverse university. Making the bar for entry and the behavior code unappealing to non-Mormons is a great strategy to pair Mormons with other Mormons.
Honor Code Living. To give young Mormons a wholesome alternative to the party atmosphere on secular campuses. Mormon students and their parents are often rightly worried about the university cultures they may encounter at other schools, especially if they have had a sheltered upbringing and/or would like to keep one. They may not be ready for the social scene among peers who are drinking, doing recreational drugs, and hooking up, or they may find this kind of atmosphere counter-productive to their studies or their personal comfort and happiness.
So what do you think?
- Did you or your kids attend BYU? If so, what were your reasons? If not, why not?
- Do you think BYU is a good value?
Discuss.
Wheat & Tares 
I did not attend BYU, even though my 2 best friends from high school chose to go to BYU. Specifically, I remember thinking I didn’t want to go somewhere that feels the need to control me. I grew up in the Salt Lake Valley, why would I need to go somewhere where there was even a higher concentration of of Mormons? At the time I thought BYU might be a logical choice for young people living in other states where the concentration of Mormons is lower. (I ended up graduating from USU)..
I left Utah after graduating.
Only 1 of my 3 children attended and graduated from BYU.
My son, a non-Mormon, thought of attending BYU School of Law. He didn’t apply and when asked why he stated: “I hear you can get in trouble for having a cup of coffee.”
Whether true or not, that’s the impression he had. Today he is a high ranking JAG in the USAF. Thank you University of Idaho.
All of the survey reasons are valid; but I, somewhat cynically, vote for marriage opportunities for people that don’t live in the mormon corridor as the currently most significant. I don’t mean this to be sexist; I think it applies equally to men and women.
The biography David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism has a whole chapter on the church education system, and I can’t really do it justice, but the history is informative. So what follows is based largely on my memory of that history; please forgive any errors.
Most of the now-universities and colleges in Utah and one in Idaho started as church-run schools. In addition to BYU, I think this included Snow College, University of Utah, Utah State University, Dixie State University, Weber State University, and Ricks College (now BYU-Idaho). I don’t know if BYU-Hawaii existed at this time, but I think it did exist in a smaller form.
At one point in time, church leaders wanted all college-bound members to attend church-run schools. Probably most of the reasons in the OP applied. Church leaders wanted to protect their young adults, keep them out of immoral environments, provide religious instruction along with a college education, and provide a safe place for them to date and marry others within the church.
One motivation that may not have been considered in the OP was curriculum control. There was a time when church leadership debated how scientific theories such as evolution and the age of the earth should be taught in the church-run institutions. For the most part, science won: evolution is taught at BYU, although some of the religion teachers might oppose it. So even if curriculum control may have been a motivation for church-run education in the beginning, I think we see that it is no longer a concern, for the most part.
Eventually, leaders decided that the church could not or should not run enough universities to handle all the LDS students, so they did two things, but I’m not sure what order they did them in. One, through negotiations with state legislatures, the church transferred ownership of most of the schools to become state run institutions. Two, they built LDS institutes at universities wherever there were enough LDS students to justify it. The church made an effort to transfer Ricks College to the state of Idaho, but it never happened, and was eventually converted into a four-year school and renamed BYU-Idaho. In Utah, I think all the schools except BYU were transferred to state control.
I graduated from BYU, but I’ve actually been dissuading my high school son from applying. I don’t think it’s an overall high quality experience. I knew so many people (and myself) who never felt like we belonged. I wasn’t there for my MRS degree, my life plan wasn’t a SAHM.
I had a much better education, and experience, when I got a second Bachelor’s at a different school. My aspirations felt more welcome.
Here’s terrible evidence of the MRS Degree theory: https://qz.com/1778333/the-brigham-young-university-wage-gap-tells-the-story-of-mormon-feminism/?fbclid=IwAR0RaWHo3CCaZmxz-u0RbOMqJ4w4XQ7MSi_isMnul5ggLoFlWDYDi_kwEfE
On average, men who graduate make 90x more than women. Let that sink in. The average male BYU grad is earning $71K within 10 years. The average female grad is earning $800 PER YEAR in the same time frame. Now, obviously, that’s because the majority of these women fell for the line that they can use their degree as an insurance policy that somehow will turn into an instant career if their husband dies or is otherwise unable to continue in their career. With no work experience, though, that’s not going to replace the income of someone who has worked on a career that whole time.
Instead, it would be great if we could start teaching men that they are fully equal partners in the home and in child rearing, not that they are “primarily” responsible to earn and only to help out as needed. Guess what? They aren’t going to pony up at home unless it becomes the norm and a religious imperative. Instead, we are forcing women into poverty with this current strategy. At least they avoid student debt if they get their unused degrees at BYU.
I was going to link to that Quartz story myself.
There are many reasons why the gender/wage gap is so overwhelming but it’s still both sobering and an enormous waste of talent and opportunity.
The core purpose of BYU is to provide a unifying core cultural experience for members. A common contact point in a church that more and more lacks them.
Angela,
Are you suggesting that men and women should be equal partners both in the home and in the workplace? Because I can get behind that. The idea that men should do both and women should still mainly act as homemakers doesn’t sit quite right with me. It seems like an unequal division of labor, but as a single male, I don’t know a whole lot about what goes into having families, so I’m open to learning more. I’d imagine the equality of a division of labor has a lot to do with various factors such as number of kids, age of kids, church and community responsibilities, etc. In other words, there are a lot of variables, and perhaps every situation is different.
Trust me– I’m trying to overcome any prejudices I might have, so I’m open to correction.
A Person: yes, I am absolutely suggesting that. When we assume women all do everything in the home and men all do everything that earns money to support the home, neither is equipped to adapt if needed, and it’s unfair to both. It is poor planning. That wasn’t the case when women were largely barred from the workplace by open, legal discrimination like in decades past. We are failing to deal with reality by sticking to ideas that don’t work.
Well yes, it’s clear that the Mrs. degree happens, that some women attend BYU primarily to land a husband with no intention of graduating, or intending to graduate with a degree only as a backup plan. And yes, I think this is sexist, that it hurts both men and women, and it leaves many women dependent on men.
But that doesn’t require a BYU, or any particular school, or a church school at all. There are plenty of LDS women attending USU, UVU, SUU, Dixie State, with the same intention.
On the other hand, looking at the history I mentioned earlier, I think one can make a case that BYU exists primarily as a dating arena for mormons, both men and women, outside of Utah.
Initially, church universities were necessary to provide education in the isolated Utah territory, with cheaper, faster travel, and a stronger state government, that was no longer necessary.
There may have been a perceived need to maintain church schools to control the curriculum and not teach things like evolution, but BYU eventually fell in line and has taught the generally accepted science for a long time.
Church leaders may have wanted to maintain church schools to further religious education, but that is now largely handled by LDS institutes.
There are two things BYU can do that I really don’t think can be done without a BYU. One is enforce the honor code, attempting to keep students from partying, drinking, etc. But if the honor code were that important, I think we would see the church using its resources to maintain more universities and encouraging students to attend church schools from the pulpit.
The other is provide cheap tuition to out of state students who can then travel to Utah and attend college with other LDS students, and yes, get married. State universities can’t do this because their tuition is not controlled by the church. It isn’t necessary, however, for the church to maintain universities in every geographical area, hence the turning over of other church schools to the state(s) to run.
And as BYU has become more selective, it has been handy to have Ricks College/BYU-Idaho, and maybe BYU-Hawaii, I don’t know their selection criteria, to provide similar opportunities to a wider range of applicant.
BYU subsidizes university educational expenses for middle class members. Let’s do more for members in developing countries. How about a BYU-Africa? Maybe in Accra, Ghana.
I attended BYU after my mission in 1984. I was a gay Mormon boy from a predominantly Methodist community in Appalachia. I felt I had entered the twilight zone and lasted one semester before transferring to the University of Utah. In my opinion, that was a much better, more normal experience.
My baby boomer parents pushed me toward BYU, as if there were no other honorable option for post secondary education. It was not a matter of affordability, since I lived in a state where the public universities were less expensive than BYU back then, and still are in some cases. They claimed that secular schools were full of “liberals with dangerous agendas” and BYU would support our values. But I didn’t like crazy rules and I didn’t really fit in with other Mormons, so I went to a state university for undergrad and later for grad school. I went to institute as an undergrad and was surprised to learn that not every LDS parent is trying to force BYU down their kids’ throats. I found a wonderful, close-knit LDS social group there, which would not have been possible in a church school environment where everyone is assumed Mormon until proven otherwise. When we got together, we incessantly mocked BYU students and their weird ways, honor code, etc. When our team beat BYU at football, we celebrated, as it confirmed our educational choices as being superior.
For a time, I resented my parents for being so single-minded about pushing BYU on me. I later decided that they just wanted me to have an enjoyable college experience like they did, and they weren’t aware that such a thing was possible at a secular university, especially considering that they went to college in an era of violent protests, activism and drug use happening everywhere (except BYU). I wish the leaders of the church would instead encourage young people to attend college in their home states and their respective institute programs rather than promoting BYU as the be-all and end-all educational experiences.
I attended BYU for both my BS and MS degrees in the 90s, with a mission in between the two. I LOVED my time there and think I got a fantastic education and one that has enabled me to have a (mostly) full-time career, even after having two children in my mid 30s. I hope my own children can get in for many of the reasons you mentioned, though my husband and I will definitely (and already have) counter the prevailing message about the reasons for women to go to college. I largely avoided a lot of that messaging by being in the honor’s dorm my freshman year, socializing with others who were mainly at school for an education, and for staying in a STEM field. I definitely did not go to BYU just to get married. It wasn’t on my radar, and I had no desire to get married before graduating.
Separately, I read the linked article in the comments…I appreciate the main points and agree we as a culture have a LONG way to go. But I take issue with Ms. Kelly’s comment on the beginning that the point of Mormon women going to college is to find a spouse. I also take issue with her invoking 70 -era counsel for women to stay home and leading the reader to think that’s current counsel. I’m not trying to gaslight anyone who is still hearing that message. Maybe it’s still being given and I’ve largely ignored it because it wasn’t applicable in my situation. That all said, though, I appreciate the points raised in the linked article and agree we have a long road ahead.
My wife and I graduated BYU and my daughter is there now. My other three kids won’t even consider it. I have a graduate degree from a rigorous school back east so I feel I have some ability to compare. I consider BYU in Provo to be a great deal for getting a quality higher education. It prepared me well for another degree and has an excellent alumni network.
The LDS church’s stance on education is one aspect that I very much appreciate. It seems to genuinely believe it because BYUI and Pathways are inexpensive ways for some to graduate college who wouldn’t otherwise finish.
That being said I think the main reason the church spends so much money on its schools is because I suspect that graduates are much more likely to stick with the church and become future church leaders. It seems that there was a leaked presentation from church headquarters to that end.
Church schools are decidedly not for everyone. The culture can overwhelm even a fairly orthodox LDS student. I handled it ok as TBM 25 years ago but today I couldn’t go back today – but I feel grateful for the opportunities BYU gave me because as a poor kid from rural Arizona I otherwise would have gone a much different route.
BYU is vital to the church’s sustainability. Its main purpose is to be a place to unite the LDS church’s youth to help them shape a believing Mormon identity and find a marriage partner. It gives then interaction with believing scholars, and gives them a mental path of being “in the world but not of the world” as people commonly say. It gives young adults a place where they have lots of people with shared experiences. College is a place where people can lifelong friends and connections. BYU is vital to the Mormon professional network that many of us have benefited from.
Rockwell,
“Most of the now-universities and colleges in Utah and one in Idaho started as church-run schools. In addition to BYU, I think this included Snow College, University of Utah, Utah State University, Dixie State University, Weber State University, and Ricks College (now BYU-Idaho). I don’t know if BYU-Hawaii existed at this time, but I think it did exist in a smaller form.”
I can’t say for sure about the others, but Utah State University was never a church school. It was a Land Grant school, part of the Morrill Land-Grant Colleges Act. The U was originally named the University of Deseret, I don’t know if that’s because it was established when Utah was still called Deseret or if the Church had a hand in it, but in that iteration, it only lasted three terms . I won’t argue that the Church may have had a heavy hand in administration if only by default in that it had a heavy hand in just about everything that went on in the state at the time period.
I never attended BYU (It would have made my dad very sad, as he was an Aggie thru and thru) but nearly all my family on my mom’s side did and my maternal Grandmother was on faculty. I have three children that also have no plans to do so. But we do have many friends from our years in the military who are sending their kids there. I think it’s purpose it twofold, a) “Educated the Saints”, as an educated populace is a productive populace and b) keep them with like minded people while they are in their most impressionable years.
I only completed an associate degree, and while the pathways program has a very tempting tuition rate, I just can’t bring myself to attache my name to a BYU diploma. Plus, I have no desire to take religion classes.
Toad, I was also a poor kid from rural Arizona. My nonmember parents sent me to BYU in part to shield me from the hippie rebellion of the late 60’s early 70’s. Little did they know that California Mormons were sending their wild-ass hippie kids to BYU to straighten them out! I never had so much fun in my life, and it took several years before the Wilkinson Admin. understood this dynamic. Of course I fell in love w/ a Mormon girl, which totally confused and appalled both my parents and hers: I became a reluctant trouble-making Mormon which I remain to this day. Incredibly the marriage still works – 47 years this coming July. Doctrinal etc. disagreements notwithstanding I give the church much credit for the quality of my wife.
… and thus (after further consideration) for the quality of my life.
Cloves, as far as I can tell, you are right about USU, and most likely UofU was also not started be the church, although Brigham Young as governor or whatever founded it. Snow College was definitely founded by Mormon settlers, so says its website. I think it was run by the church. I’m not sure about Weber state University, but it was originally named Weber Stake Academy. Anyway, I’m not going to go through them all. I knew I might be wrong on some points, I think I said so, and I thank you for the correction.
Rockwell, not a problem, I just couldn’t leave my Aggies being wronged in that way. 😉
Stephen, I don’t think BYU can provide a common cultural experience for Mormons anymore. The membership is too large to accommodate it. That’s the reason for Institute (and I guess singles wards to some extent). I didn’t even apply to BYU and neither my bishop nor my stake president (who lived in our ward and knew me well) ever brought it up (and they knew my SAT score and grades would have gotten me in quite easily).
It’s also worth pondering whether the various BYU campuses really serve the same purposes. Hawaii and Idaho are much more focused on “educating the world” than BYU with its higher entrance requirements and exstensive graduate and professional programs.
As to the question about generating a leadership corps, how many of our area, stake, and ward leaders have any clue where you went to school? And if they do, do they really take into account whether we went to Florida State, Gonzaga, or Cornell and not BYU?
JohnW
“ gives them a mental path of being “in the world but not of the world”
I‘ve often wondered what that phrase means?
“ how many of our area, stake, and ward leaders have any clue where you went to school?”
Or where you are going to school?..
When my youngest graduated from high school (2nd in his class), and got accepted to his first choice— one of the best for his major— but not BYU—it became fodder for the leaders.
The last ward social function I attended, a family sat down at the table where I was sitting. The husband, whom I barely knew, after a few minutes asked me if I was “Will’s” mom? I said “yes.” He then asked if I was aware that the university my son would be attending was the only school in the U.S. that had a “clothing optional” policy.?
Pure hogwash and utter nonsense.
Little did he know that the purported “clothing optional” university happened to have an institute for LDS students right across the street from campus.
“The world” has some fantastic people in it and so does the church. The world has some ignorant and unkind, uncharitable and evil people. So does the church.
What I don’t understand is, for a church that sends young people all over the world, (to convince people to join the church) why there remains such ignorance, such narrowness.
BYU was amazing for me. Two degrees, met wife, dream job, lifelong friends, no student debt. What more could you ask for?
I don’t think BYU has never had only a singular purpose and has changed over time and may continue to change. As others have said, I assume it mainly started due to logistical issues and needing a local university.
I think another good question is how effectively it is doing in each of the areas. I know that I have a few kids that attended, but were so burned out on the culture that it has seriously negatively affected their view of LDS culture and even the church.
As long as the BYU student body is overwhelmingly white, middle-class privileged American, rather than a reflection of the diverse global Church membership, I consider their efforts at making education more accessible to be a dismal failure.
The by-product of that effort is instead a classist, tiered system:
-BYU-P has selective admissions and serves the most privileged members, giving them a place to meet and marry other privileged Church members and perpetuate future generations of privilege, pomposity and prosperity gospel attitudes
-BYU-I has become a “school of last resort”, a glorified junior college where mediocre Latter-day Saints meet and marry each other and perpetuate future generations of mediocrity
-BYU-H is either a party school for American members, or a place for Asian and Polynesian members to get green card marriages while they are made to display their cultures like zoo animals for paying customers
I didn’t attend BYU. I have 2 older sisters and one younger brother who all graduated from BYU and only my brother got married while at BYU. When I was applying to law school, a woman in my Mesa, Arizona ward was almost in shock that I was not applying to BYU law school. I simply didn’t want to go there. You need ivy-league credentials to get into school there, whether undergrad or any graduate school, but you do not graduate with ivy-league credentials to secure a post-graduate job. I have gotten a world class education going to schools like Ohio State University, Arizona State University, and the University of Nebraska Law School, and I had no difficulty getting married. Twice. I have 5 kids, and I think there is only one that might want to go to BYU. I am not going to prevent him from going, if that is the experience he wants to have. I’ll leave that decision up to him. Its definitely not for everyone.
10% of your income for life is not cheap tuition,
Jan, That’s clever, but nobody forces BYU grads to keep paying tithing in order to avoid revocation of their degrees. 🙂
My impression of BYU—superficial rules for rule’s sake was confirmed by my son’s experience there.
Current BYU Provo dress code:
“ Sideburns should not extend below the earlobe or onto the cheek. If worn, moustaches should be neatly trimmed and may not extend beyond or below the corners of the mouth. Men are expected to be clean-shaven; beards are not acceptable”
(Does this mean BYU has relaxed its facial hair standards to allow mustaches)?
My only child to attend BYU was denied breakfast his first day of class. He had shaved late afternoon the day before school started. (He has very sensitive skin, and dark hair—often develops a rash after shaving, but has always maintained a clean shaven appearance). When he arrived at the cafeteria he was told he had to return to his room and shave.
(Of course, he didn’t have time to do that’s d make it to class on time) so he went without).
The rules of the Honor Code are truly out of control and were apparently written in the 70s when facial hair meant you were a hippie (they say it was written by the students, but BYU has made many untrustworthy statements that are laughable in the past). There haven’t been any reasonable improvements to the standards since then, but what do you expect from a Church that often dictates facial hair restrictions to adult men it wants to put in leadership roles? If they asked current students to vote on the Honor Code today, there is no way that a facial hair and leggings ban would hold. My daughter is interested in attending there, but is very upset that leggings are not allowed. She will need an entirely new wardrobe. My son often had to shave twice a day at BYU to be able to do simple things like take a test (particularly difficult since he lived way off campus), and the dress code standards are often the basis for male students to harass female students or turn them away from testing.
Our tour guide naively boasted that there was an Honor Code to prevent students from cheating. He seemed unaware that EVERY university and college has an anti-cheating honor code. What’s unique about the Honor Code is (mostly) not good, and what’s good about it isn’t unique. Well, perhaps the one positive thing I think most LDS students appreciate is that the housing rules prevent a party atmosphere in your living quarters by making overnight opposite sex guests and alcohol consumption against the rules and grounds for discipline up to and including expulsion. I could see students voting to keep that rule in the Honor Code, which would preserve a unique atmosphere at the Y. At least it causes those who break that rule to do so on the down low with consideration for roommates.
As a Utah graduate, I am probably biased against BYU (okay, not probably) and I did not have the quintessential college experience at the U. University life was, however, a time of great exploration and change. I was able to test different perspectives and modes of living, make more than a few mistakes, and get a feel for what my capabilities are. I met people from many different places and learned that they saw the world differently. I was no longer sheltered and monitored–my life was mine to screw up if I chose to. And I tried, sometimes. I drank way too much and puked in somebody’s hedge. I fumbled in the dark with willing female classmates. I’m still glad I had those experiences because they contribute to what I know now and I make wiser decisions because I made mistakes then.
The idea that college is a time of trial and error, and a time to make mistakes, seems completely absent at BYU. Indeed, the tremendously awful honor code seems designed to prevent exploration. If college is part educational experience and part personal boundary testing, then BYU is not a complete college experience. It’s designed to keep the latter from happening. In that sense it’s like a mission: Indoctrinate during an uncertain time in life and the indoctrinated are more likely to remain.
I will say that the low tuition rates and generally quality education are absolute goods. Student loans are burying too many graduates, and if the church is helping young members avoid that trap, so much the better. Does that benefit balance out the far-reaching efforts to enforce conformity? I think not.
is the photo you used a stock PR photo from BYU itself? Just wondering because your chances of seeing more than a couple of African or African American students on campus in a given day are pretty low. Looks like typical diversity propaganda
josh h – the gowns are not blue, so I would assume by that alone gives a clue. But your clue is just as strong.
Josh H, you mean this BYU promo video is not representative?
“nobody forces BYU grads to keep paying tithing in order to avoid revocation of their degrees”
BYU grads are more likely to remain active in the church. They often meet their spouse there and build Mormon networks there, that they continue to maintain contact with and rely on post-graduation. BYU students are highly likely to become increasingly socialized in the church and that socialization will exert pressure on them to pay tithing. The LDS church doesn’t have a $100 billion unwittingly. They are keen investors and business administrators who know very well lots of subtle tactics to keep people paying. BYU’s cheapness has long been an incentive to enroll Mormonism’s best and brightest, socialize them more deeply in Mormonism, and train them to become leaders in their respective Mormon communities. The deeper they go into Mormonism, the harder it is to leave. The ex-Mormon subreddit is replete with stories that show just how difficult is can be for many BYU grads to leave the church and stop paying tithing.
Josh H: BYU does not allow free use of its images, so that photo is from royalty free images stock available online. It is not from BYU.
Lois: “Clothing optional” university? Right. Some people will believe anything, but if only more Mormons had read David Sedaris’s book Naked, they would know how impractical such a policy would be (not to mention…disgusting). In short, I highly recommend reading it.
Yes USU was a land grant college. Yes University of Deseret was founded by Brigham Young. Yes Weber College and Dixie College were junior colleges started by the LDS Church.
My parents were California kids who attended BYU in the 60s when local options were quite a bit less church-friendly. They opted to raise their family in Utah. Most of my siblings attended BYU, so it was just my expectation for myself. It was not a popular decision among my high school associates. One specifically told me I was choosing to throw my life and brain away to become a stay-at-home wife if I chose the Y. I’d always planned to be a working mom, like my own BYU-grad mom, so the charge was laughable.
Honestly, I loved my time at BYU. I met Mormons who came from various backgrounds, and they helped me expand my intellectual horizons. I loved my anthropology/archaeology major where I met people who had no issue reconciling a belief in evolution with their belief in the church, and I saw how careful they were knowing that not everyone could comfortably do that reconciliation in their minds. I loved my Jerusalem study abroad experience where I was taught by both a Jewish Rabbi and a Palestinian Muslim.
But, I also became the stereotype. I met my future husband when I was only 18, at the beginning of my sophomore year. After two years of dating we finally married, but I still felt way too young getting hitched at 20. I got my B.A., but grad school and career ambitions took a back seat to my husband’s career. I indeed became a stay-at-home mom at the age of 23. I don’t regret the decision (it was the best for our family situation), but I was definitely haunted for years about it. Now my kids are getting older and I’m trying to figure out again what I want to do when I grow up. But my kids (especially my two girls) already know that I expect them to attend college and get a degree, even if their ultimate desire is to be a stay-at-home mom. As the daughter of a working mom, I was keenly aware of the church rhetoric against it growing up. Thankfully, I don’t see my daughters experiencing that same animosity.
BYU exists now for sports. And to waggle their finger to the world at how awesome the honor code is when high profile athletes like Brandon Davies mess up and BYU can thump its chest – “why yes, we don’t care that we have a once in a generation athlete like jimmer – we will show the world that Brandon messed up! “
Sports allows them to bring in high value donors to wine and dine as well.
The reality now is that BYU is way behind in recruiting and continue to hold on to an antiquated belief that coaches must be LDS. As a lifelong fan, they deserve their mediocrity And are in huge denial of how far the programs have fallen
In our lifetime, BYUs awfulness will be the catalyst to Push leaders to relax the honor code and allow BYU to start recruiting non LDS athletes as Premier LDS athletes no longer come to BYU.
Institutions such as BYU can be used as instruments of social justice or instruments of social control. Sometimes even a little of each. Right now, BYU might be in part an instrument of social control, perhaps at odds with its original mission.
The honor code has changed drastically in past decades in less-than-desirable ways.
The church gains a state-certified police force via its support of BYU which in recent years has been shown to have overstepped its bounds in worrisome ways (and perhaps not under the umbrella of a church–BYU can have regular campus security or allow Provo police to do the policing. Having a church in charge of a police force is going to get messy and isn’t in the mission of the church).
BYU restricts academic freedom which impacts both students and professors. Phi Beta Kappa won’t grant BYU a chapter in their prestigious honor society out of concerns that they place restrictions on academic freedom. Restricting academic freedom often backfires on those issuing the restrictions. Why restrict free inquiry? We all benefit when new ideas enter the public arena, even if it’s painful at first to encounter a new paradigm. Will there be mistakes? Yes. But we are still better off if we use empirical means of exploring ideas.
A lot of wonderful professors through the years have built up a fine institution. I would love to see academic freedom supported, the honor code brought in line with those at other universities, and state certified police entities held fully accountable to the public. Other religious groups have found ways to accomplish these goals and I have faith that we can, as well.
I remember seeing a BYU football player taking a very cheap shot at someone’s head when play had been stopped. Not enough of a sports fan to remember details. In fact, I wish I could forget the whole thing. It was cruel, impulsive, grossly unsportsmanlike and could have caused real permanent damage. I don’t know who would be chest thumping about behavior like that!
FWIW, the “no leggings” thing is not really enforced beyond getting an ID card at BYU (it’s much more strictly enforced at BYU-I I hear). I never had an issue.
latias
I appreciate that the the no-leggings rule is not really enforced. But this raises the issue of using selective reinforcement as a mechanism to expel or discipline students ostensibly for dress code violations, but in reality for other undisclosed reasons. Why have the rule in the first place? It can be a cover for discrimination. And it can suddenly be enforced at a crucial time, ending up harming a student who is attempting to take a test, for example.
When I was at BYU doing my MBA in 1993, we had a banquet where Elder M. Russell Ballard was the guest of honor. When he spoke to us he specifically pointed out that the lord wants us to be successful and pay our tithing on our earnings. He basically told us that the church needs the finances to operate schools, build chapels and temples, and to do good in the world. Of course this is many years before Ensign Peak Advisors and our now supposed $100Billion+. So yeah, BYU also exsists to educate people and send them out so they can make a lot of money and pay tithing.