Another Latter-day Saint podcaster has been excommunicated. Julie Rowe caused a commotion several years ago when she was widely publicized as one of several people inspiring a massive prepper craze in September 2015. Although she’s kept a lower profile in recent years, Julie continues to share her visions in podcasts, books, and media interviews. She also practices and teaches the Emotion Code, a holistic method combining energy healing and muscle testing. It appears that both her teachings and involvement in energy work were factors in her April 9th excommunication.
Background
Julie Rowe first came to the public’s attention in 2014 with the publication of her first two books, A Greater Tomorrow: My Journey Beyond the Veil and The Time is Now. These books describe what she experienced and witnessed during a near-death experience in 2004.[1] Her first book, A Greater Tomorrow, was released in May 2014 and was wildly successful. Publisher Chad Daybell said in 2016, “The first printing sold out within a month, and the eBook version smashed my book distributor’s all-time records.” The two decided she should follow up with a second book, The Time is Now, which would include “quotes from LDS prophets concerning the future, as well as answer many questions Julie had been asked on how to prepare spiritually and temporally for troubled times.” That book was released in November 2014 and proved to be just as popular as its predecessor.
Seagull Book, one of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ for-profit companies, loved Julie’s books. Daybell explained that Deseret Book had been burned on the whole near-death experiences topic with the controversial 2012 book Visions of Glory: One Man’s Astonishing Account of the Last Days[2], but Seagull Book buyers had no such qualms. In 2015, Seagull contacted Daybell to increase advertisement space for Julie’s books. Daybell said,
I was elated, because the only books that receive that much space are typically written by General Authorities. The larger advertisement boosted sales even more. By August 2015, Julie’s books had been featured in 13 straight Seagull Book catalogs, which is almost unheard of.
“Behind the Scenes of the Julie Rowe Media Frenzy” by Chad Daybell, President of Spring Creek Book Company
But then the Church released an interior memo to Church Educational System instructors in late August, specifically calling out Julie’s first book, A Greater Tomorrow, as inappropriate for classroom use. Although people assumed teachers were tempted to use Julie’s book for her end times predictions, Julie’s publisher later hypothesized that it was her visions of Old Testament events that were the real concern.
Well, the new seminary year was just underway, and the students were studying the Old Testament. As readers know, Julie spends several pages in “A Greater Tomorrow” describing what she saw concerning ancient prophets. Julie gives detailed accounts about Adam and Eve, Noah’s Ark. Abraham and Isaac, and even Potiphar’s lustful wife that aren’t in the scriptures or in the seminary manuals. Undoubtedly many instructors had read the book during the previous year and were supplementing their lessons with these very interesting tidbits.
I still have never received any explanation from the Church about the internal memo, but that’s my assessment of why a “caution” was issued. Julie and I wholeheartedly agree with the Church’s stance that these accounts should not be shared in seminary or institute classes. Please note that Julie’s second book “The Time is Now” was not included in that statement, which lends credence to my Old Testament theory.
“Behind the Scenes of the Julie Rowe Media Frenzy” by Chad Daybell, President of Spring Creek Book Company
Unfortunately, the Church’s warning against Julie’s book came out when people were on edge about the apocalyptic “Blood Moon” of September 2015. Two Christian pastors, John Hagee and Mark Blitz, popularized the theory that the “series of four consecutive lunar eclipses” between August 2014 and September 2015 signaled the “beginning of the end times.” Since news outlets already assumed the Church disliked Julie’s books due to end times predictions, it was easy to merge her story with the wider hysteria of doomsday preppers. When news outlets reached out to the Church for comment, the Church responded with a summary of the Church’s position on emergency preparedness, ending with, “The writings and speculations of individual Church members, some of which have gained currency recently, should be considered as personal accounts or positions that do not reflect Church doctrine.”[3]
After the Media Frenzy
September came and went, but the preparations didn’t slacken. Julie formed the non-profit Greater Tomorrow Relief Fund in November 2015. One description on her blog stated,
As conditions in the United States worsen due to natural disasters and civil unrest, millions of innocent people will be affected. They may be forced to leave their homes, taking with them only those items they can carry.
The Greater Tomorrow Relief Fund has been established in preparation for such situations. It is a non-profit 501c3 organization headquartered in Overland Park, Kansas. A network of volunteers have been organized in communities across the United States to help those in need.
Any donations will be used to buy supplies and other items needed for disaster relief efforts. These items will be stored at secure locations across the United States, ready to be distributed when needed. These goods and services will serve the poor, the weak, the homeless, and the hungry.
“The Greater Tomorrow Relief Fund” post on julieroweprepare.com
Julie released another book in March 2016, From Tragedy to Destiny: A Vision of America’s Future. She kept the book non-denominational to appeal to a broader audience. In it, she shared a message the Founding Fathers had revealed to her in her 2004 NDE. “They expressed their worries about the country’s eroding moral fabric, and she promised to share their counsel and warnings when she returned to earth… Earthquakes, famines, plagues, and wars are coming to the United States, but Julie saw how God is preparing places of safety to protect righteous people from the coming calamities.” Apparently, all proceeds from that book go towards Julie’s Greater Tomorrow Relief Fund.
She continued to do media interviews. In May 2016, Julie talked about the “Wasatch Wake Up” on a radio interview, forecasting a large earthquake to occur along the Wasatch Front.
My understanding right now is this interview that I’m having with you Bryan, is the last opportunity I have to essentially publicly testify and witness of our Savior Jesus Christ, testify of His plan, and warn many of our brothers and sisters that there is a very imminent earthquake on the Wasatch Front. What I’ve been shown and told is this is my last opportunity to do a live interview before that earthquake is going to happen. After that earthquake happens, which is happening very soon, then I’m going to get hit by a whirlwind of media.
From transcription of Julie Rowe’s May 3, 2016 interview with Bryan Hyde published on julieroweprepare.com
A year later, in May 2017, Julie began a podcast series, “The Julie Rowe Show.” The first episode talked about this “Wasatch Wake Up” and Julie confirmed that the earthquake is still “right around the corner.”[4] Other podcasts also talked about her visions of the coming challenges ahead of the Second Coming. For example, her fifth podcast, “What I See on the West Coast,” talked about Russian and Chinese troops invading the western coasts of Canada and the United States (see transcript here). The podcasts seemed to have had a decent following. As of October 2017, her first episode had been viewed over 14k times.
In 2018, Julie came out with two more books, The Julie Rowe Show: Volume 1 (Podcasts 1-10) and Rising Above the Flames: My Untold Story (as told to Eric J. Smith).
Energy Healing
It seems that a significant amount of Julie’s time, though, has been devoted to energy work. Julie described her 2012 exposure to Dr. Bradley Nelson’s Emotion Code holistic approach in the appendix to her second book, The Time is Now. In her NDE and in subsequent visions, she was told about energy healing, and she was even given the name of the doctor and specific type of holistic approach to search for. “It was made known to me that I was to research Dr. Nelson and The Emotion Code and The Body Code. I was shown repeatedly that I was to be involved in this work in helping myself, my family, and others heal from illness and disease. It was made clear to me that this work would not only benefit me, but also my ancestors on the other side of the veil. It was made clear to me that this form of energy healing would be used in the tent cities, as well as in the New Jerusalem and into the Millennium.”
Julie has been doing energy sessions with clients for several years now, releasing “trapped emotions and other negative energy which inflict the body.” She also travels to different cities and teaches group classes in the method. (For those unfamiliar with the price schedules of energy healing, this will shed some light.)
Why talk about the energy work? Well, the Church hasn’t been so wild about energy healing in the past few years. In September 2016, a Salt Lake City-based television station ran a story on Christ-centered energy healing and asked the Church for a statement. Church spokesman Eric Hawkins responded, “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises-in exchange for money-miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.” Does that statement sound familiar? It should. Elder Ballard repeated it verbatim in a general conference talk a year later.[5] He added, “Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful.” (In the same address Ballard also talked about not being deceived by men or women when it came to looking for signs of the Second Coming.)
Church Discipline
On May 26, 2019, Julie released a podcast titled “Unrighteous Dominion” which gave a detailed overview of the events leading up to her disciplinary council. Julie Rowe first shared that she tried to get in touch with her stake president over two years ago when she first moved to her current location in Kansas, but he never responded. It was thus a surprise when he texted her husband for a meeting with Julie this last January (her discussion of this meeting begins around the 19:50 minute mark).
On the morning of Sunday, January 6th (Julie’s birthday), she sat in a room with four men (her husband, her bishop, the stake president, and a counselor in the stake presidency) and had an unpleasant conversation. The stake president informed her that he’d been contacted by a member of the Area Presidency. Julie said she was accused of teaching false doctrine, and that the stake president expressed dislike for her podcasts, books, blog, and energy work (although she blamed the last on his bias as an MD/allopathic doctor). She said that he stated repeatedly, “You realize I’m your judge.” Later in the podcast (about 35:08) it comes out that the stake president apparently told her in this meeting to stop all energy healings, classes, or sessions where she began with a prayer and cast out spirits. Not only did she refuse to do so but quipped, “As a doctor, if you prayed before you went to work, before you went in to see your patients, and you cast out, you would be a lot better at your job!” She sure showed him.
Due to scheduling conflicts, Julie did not speak again with her stake president until March when he took away her temple recommend and put her on probation. She affirmed that it was NOT the stake president but God, however, that told her to temporarily take down all her podcasts on March 11th and to stop selling her books (she’s not even listed as an author on the Spring Creek Book Company’s website anymore).
She was given only a couple days notice before her disciplinary council on Tuesday, April 9th. At the two-hour council meeting it was declared that she would be excommunicated based on the charges of (1) apostasy, (2) teaching false doctrine, (3) priestcraft, and (4) defaming the good name of the Church. She insists she was falsely accused.
Okay, stepping back from Julie’s account, it’s not difficult to see where her local leadership may have felt they were on solid ground for excommunication (aside from the fact that higher-ups were irritated). Although we don’t know WHY the Area Presidency decided to go after her now, it only takes this May 26th podcast to see possible arguments of all the different charges local leaders levied against her (which is helpful because access to her other podcasts is difficult right now).
- Apostasy: In 2014, the First Presidency released an interesting definition of apostasy after the prominent excommunication of Ordain Women founder Kate Kelly. They said, “Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.” Some people have taken that a step further, that doing anything after a church leader has counseled you to stop counts as apostasy (see this example of a
GAstake president declaring a woman is in apostasy because she refused to stop talking about her divorce). So, Julie’s leaders could easily see her refusal to stop practicing energy work as apostasy. - Teaching False doctrine: It’s also possible that Julie was considered in a state of apostasy simply because she refused to correct “false doctrine.” (She did mention the false doctrine thing in the January meeting.) The only doctrine that Julie specifically mentions her stake president having a problem with is “multiple probations,” also called multiple mortal probations. It’s a Mormon version of reincarnation, where a single spirit goes through several different turns on earth before moving on to the afterlife. You can learn more about it here.[6]
- Priestcraft: The traditional LDS definition of priestcraft comes from the Book of Mormon, “Men preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.” (2 Nephi 26:29). If “gain” is interpreted as money, then they could be thinking of her profiting off her visions and supernatural healings. (Though it sets an interesting precedent. Could anyone who does energy healing get charged with priestcraft, or is this unique because of the additional component of Julie’s visions?) They could also just say that she’s setting herself up for a “light to the world” because she’s claiming to have messages from God. (This charge of priestcraft likely inspired Julie’s friend, Eric, to write a rebuttal against those who would accuse her. His post was published in April a few days after her excommunication.)
- Defaming the good name of the Church. Defaming the good name of the Church means defaming the good name of Church leaders.[7] I’m not sure what she said before her stake president talked to her, but she’s definitely not painting Church leadership in a positive light right now. A theme seems to be that there church leaders who aren’t what they appear to be (not President Nelson or the First Presidency, but… others). For example, at 45:50 Julie says, “And if these men who are corrupt that are in the church think they can get rid of me, they’re wrong. And when they listen to this I hope they hear me loud and clear. I’m not going anywhere.” She claimed that in her disciplinary council, Satan himself was whispering in her stake president’s ear. In a more recent podcast, at about 16:08, Julie mentions crime families “cloaked” within the LDS hierarchy “clear up into the Seventies and, dare I say, more so. In time, you will see that this is going to be exposed.”
So what’s happened since the disciplinary council? Julie continues to travel for her energy healing workshops and appear on radio shows. She and her husband have both filed appeal letters to the First Presidency, though she expects them to be denied. It won’t be until after a significant number of Church leaders apostatize and what’s left of the church moves to Rexburg when church leaders will finally ask her forgiveness.[8]
Discuss.[9]
[1] Some contend her 2004 experience was more of a vision than a near-death experience because she was just in a “weakened state,” not actually dead. If you’d like to read a chapter from A Greater Tomorrow, click here.
[2] Visions of Glory records the near-death experience of a man named “Spencer” as told to Latter-day Saint author John Pontius. (Pontius passed away December 2012, a month after the book was published.) The back cover states, “In this true account of near-death experiences, we learn about the miracles of the millennium, the return of the Ten Tribes, the building of the New Jerusalem and temple, and many other astonishing events long prophesied in scripture but never before described in such vivid detail. Visions of Glory is a mesmerizing and fascinating read that you will not be able to put down.” In January 2014, emeritus BYU professor D. Kelly Ogden wrote an article about the book for Meridian Magazine. He noted, “Speaking with the publisher early in December 2013, I learned that over eighty thousand copies had already been sold, and it is possible that the total exceeded one hundred thousand copies by Christmas. It appears to be a sensation.” It’s interesting to note that the apologetic site FairMormon began sounding alarm bells about Visions of Glory as early as May 2013.
[3] The Church was NOT happy when journalists reported that the media statement was meant to alleviate doomsday fears in church members. Church Newsroom staff later reported on September 29, 2015, “This misinterpretation by the Associated Press that the statement was to reassure members rather than to correct misinformation from the news media (see text of statement) resulted in many inaccurate headlines…” To be honest, I’m still trying to understand why the Church was so adamant about this distinction.
[4] As of May 26, 2019, Julie still says the Wasatch Front earthquake is “imminent.” See Episode #77 – Unrighteous Dominion at 53:17.
[5] It’s interesting to see the reaction of energy healers to the Church’s statement. Basically, they argue their practices are not in conflict with that statement or the Church in general. You can read Tammy Ward’s response (the subject of the 2016 news article) here. Dr. Bradley Nelson’s response (inventor of the Emotion Code) is here. His angle is a little different than Ward’s. Where she argues it’s always wise to use caution with health practices in general, he boldly says that “anyone in the healing profession that makes a promise of healing, miraculous or otherwise, is foolish.” He further states, “From the point of view of Western medicine, alternative medicine may be suspect, but there are healing practices that are so ethically and legally questionable in Western medicine that I am left to speculate what Elder Ballard was actually referring to.” So… yeah.
[6] Proponents of this theory tend to like the 2011 compilation Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives. This teaching was referenced in a 2017 MormonLeaks document where a member of a stake presidency reports to higher authorities on the actions of several members of his stake who he believes are in a state of apostasy. Those members were also into energy healing and end times visions, among many other things.
[7] Bill Reel’s podcast calling out Elder Holland as a liar is widely seen as what precipitated his December 2018 excommunication.
[8] You think I’m joking? Listen in at 43:33.
[9] Big thanks to commenter Rockwell who alerted me to Julie’s excommunication.
Wheat & Tares 
Mary Ann, Thanks for the overview and analysis. I did note that the 2014 definition of “apostasy” you linked to is a slight rewording* of the first two parts of the Handbook 1, number 6.7.3 definition of “apostasy” as used for purposes of determining what a disciplinary council is mandatory. It purports to state what “[a]postasy is” — not to define it merely as used for the purpose of that section of Handbook 1. It adds a qualifier as to which Church leaders are not to be repeatedly, publicly opposed. It fails to qualify from whom the correction of teaching false doctrine comes. It also fails to clarify that “teaching false doctrine” means (in Handbook 1) “teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine.” It also omits other things the Handbook includes in its special purpose definition.
It did not appear from the content of the November 2015 update that those first two parts of the Handbook definition had been updated to conform with the 2014 announcement. I suspect the 2014 definition was merely an instance of humans being less than very careful with words, rather than an intended modification of the Handbook. BTW, Have you seen a revision of 6.7.3 since the April announcement of the deletion of the November 2015 addition (“[a]re in a same-gender marriage”) ? I have not.
*Compare:
“Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.” from 2014 announcement
with
“When a Disciplinary Council is Mandatory Apostasy
As used here, apostasy refers to members who:
1.Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
3….” from Handbook 1, number 6.7.3
So to really make some money, a TBR (true believer in Rowe) should be buying real estate in Rexburg. That’s sort of the prepper version of insiders with some access to GA info about where temples are going to be built buying real estate near the projected or planned sites.
And here’s a link with more details on the woman who violated the “a woman who won’t stop talking when told to shut up by her Stake President is in apostasy” rule.
https://kutv.com/news/local/church-removes-womans-temple-recommend-after-refusing-keep-quiet-about-her-divorce
Interesting stuff. Regarding the woman who defied a gag order, I’d followed this story when it was leaked and only knew of her stake president labeling her as in apostasy. Did a GA really back him up on that?
Here are some causes for disciplinary action you may not know of: “Deliberate disregard of church law as expressed through church bylaws…….”
“Deliberate disregard of the properly exercised authority, action, or direction of a presiding administrative church officer.”
“False, misleading, or malicious statements meant to harm the church. This includes print, broadcast, and social media (electronic) communications.”
“Deliberate failure to preserve confidential information….”
Think these came from those close-minded General Authorities of the LDS Church? WRONG; They are part of World Conference Resolution 1316, adopted April 11, 2019 by the Community of Christ; who tout open-mindedness, tolerance, and diversity. Although WCR 1316 concerns priesthood, I have no doubt it extends to members who don’t toe the line of progressive doctrine.
Irrational, unreasonable attitudes occur on both sides of the theological fence.
Laurel, looks like I made a mistake on that one. I think I mixed up her stake president (Russ Clayton) with a GA that’s been involved in some Church discipline (L. Whitney Clayton). I’ll fix that in the post.
The lds stakes in Kansas city are so hypocritical. Multiple people on high councils, in the temple presidencies, and other authorities have their own property in the area set aside for the last days and the gathering. If slc did a real investigation they would find the lds leadership here is corrupt.
They themselves were promoting Rowe’s ideas. But now they will back slc.
The truth will come out.
Tje stake president that ex julie is trying to climb the leadership ladder and be a general authority the do every thing as numbers .
The church should excommunicate the leadership I’m kc…along with julie.
While I’m not a fan of ex-communication for apostasy, this one I have a bit more sympathy toward the church’s side of things. And that’s mostly because every once in a while I’ve listened to Rowe’s interviews/podcasts and every single time it set off all my professional detectors for fraud. I could be wrong about that, but at the point where she is using fear to influence people to drastically change their lives (the prepper or earthquake movement) or fundraising for a private non-profit (is the accounting public on this?), I get suspicious.
That said, I have no problem with energy healings and such. I am again a bit suspicious when there is money involved as here too can be found quite a bit of fraud but I don’t know enough about what she does to know if what she is doing is reasonably legitimate vs profiting off of someone else’s sense of hope.
The whole Julie Rowe thing is super fascinating to me. One of my guilty pleasures is lurking on the LDS Freed0m F0rum, where she has been an item of vigorous debate for years.
markagblog, the proof is in the pudding: you say that you have “no doubt [WCR 1316] extends to members who don’t toe the line of progressive doctrine,” but do you know of any CoC members who have actually been disciplined? To my knowledge, many if not most churches have processes in place for disciplinary action for similar kinds of things. The difference is in how often they are invoked and how broadly they are interpreted.
ReTx wrote: “I don’t know enough about what she does to know if what she is doing is reasonably legitimate vs. profiting off of someone else’s sense of hope.”
I find myself confronted with the same dilemma thinking about the church itself these days. It’s somewhat ironic that Ms. Rowe has been excommunicated for things that, 150 years ago in the church (if she was of another gender) would have gotten her apostle status. Interesting times.
JR, I haven’t seen an updated image from Handbook 1 since the exclusion policy was revoked. I get that the 28 June 2014 letter is a layman’s version of the stipulations in Handbook 1, but it was released to help explain to both media and members the reasoning behind Kate Kelly’s 23 June 2014 excommunication. The letter also has the backing of both the FP and Q12 (something Elder Ballard made sure to point out when he quoted it at the October 2014 general conference). The other reason I think the letter is significant is that it is publicly available (as opposed to Handbook 1 which is not). The only other publicly available mention of personal apostasy by the Church I can find is from the Gospel Topics section, where it more describes how to *prevent* personal apostasy (keep covenants, obey commandments, follow Church leaders, partake of sacrament, and strengthening testimony via scripture study, prayer, and service). Again, the idea of following Church leaders really jumps out to me as the main sticking point with Julie Rowe. (Not following counsel of local Church leaders was mentioned multiple times in Kate Kelly’s excommunication.)
Conrad, “The difference is in how often they are invoked and how broadly they are interpreted.” This is also key in discussions of LDS disciplinary action among various members of the Church. In the case of Gina Colvin, charges were dropped after many of her friends protested. In the cases of Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, and Sam Young, they caused a significant amount of bad publicity to the Church prior to the excommunication. But the threat of even more negative publicity postponed Dehlin’s discipline (and completely stopped Thomas Murphy’s discipline). Cases like Bill Reel, Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, Mike Stroud, and Julie Rowe seem to take quite a bit longer to rise to the surface, and they really only are targeted when they are highly influential to a growing niche of believers. For the most part, the general membership is unaware of these individuals. A really confusing one to me is Jeremy Runnells – his 2013 CES Letter did major damage almost immediately, but it was years before he was ever disciplined. There just doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of consistency to these disciplinary actions.
The discussion seems pretty legalistic to me, is that what we’ve become? I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be tramelled.
But, for what it’s worth, I am talking about something a little bit different. Right now I am a member of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), which is one of the most liberal protestant denominations in the nation. The denomination’s book of church order says that you can be disciplined fro anything contrary to the scriptures or the constitution of the denomination, which sounds heavy-handed and authoritarian and someone like markagblog might imagine PC(USA) members being disciplined for not toeing the line on progressive matters. But that straight-up does not happen, ever. As far as I know, church discipline in the PC(USA) is really reserved for clergy who disrupt the denomination’s organization (e.g., set up rogue churches outside of their jurisdiction, take a clergy post in another denomination without going through the right procedures) or engage in serious misconduct, but never for issues of doctrine or teaching or for political positions.
Not to downplay the reality of “leadership roulette” in the LDS church, but some inconsistency in application across a large denomination is going to be inevitable. i’m sure that a meaningful appeals process would temper that a little, but only one way–you can’t really appeal the decision not to discipline someone.
Silfo, fair criticism. I think disciplinary actions are always going to feel legalistic when dealing with a charge like apostasy (as opposed to breaking obvious commandments, like adultery or murder). I think one reason I’m drawn to discussing these cases is because they *seem* like they should be tied simply to inward belief (based on the every day understanding of apostasy), but in reality they are responses to outward actions of individuals (when the statements and actions of those individuals have the power to influence the beliefs of others).
Although you could say julie as borderline “fraud”. She was taking advantage of a system that mormon culture created. From ezra t benson, to boyd packer and their dreams of watchman on tower and they can see the future. the current leadership is not speaking to that group and she filled in the vacuum.
Just like polygamy the church demands people practice and believe, but then changes the policy and punishes those that keep practicing polygamy.
Same with race and priesthood, same with use of “I m a mormon”.
They say one thing. Then change their minds and punish those who keep up the old policy.
The church should teach love and kindness. When the emphasis of the church is kindness and not obidence they will continue this loop self infliction with their own history.
As I had before those own leaders here in Kansas city have land and spoke the julie talk in lds meetings and also amongst themselves. Now they go after julie for the same things they themselves have promoted among local members.
The stake pres who excommunicated her, his father was stake pres of the same stake 20 years prior. He apple polished slc to the calling. And does what they say
What happened to excommunication are done on a local level and not directed by slc.
Frankly the whole lds church culture and leadership is a trainwreck and this is a direct manifestation of that.
Alma 30:53 comes to mind:
But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.
How does Julie *know* that visitations were of the real, actual founders of America and not some other spirits merely proclaiming to be so? I doubt any mechanism exists to be certain of this; and that is true for visits from God Himself; save only that “sheep know their shepherd’s voice” — beware, there be more than one shepherd.
Regarding the reader comment that Julie could be accused of fear-mongering (which I agree with): doesn’t church leadership in many instances actively do the same thing? Is it more a case, as other have inferred, that perhaps it’s not what she did, but who she is (or isn’t) while doing it, that’s the problem?
I think when it comes to excommunication for apostasy, leadership roulette plays a huge part. Some might be overzealous to take action, but I’d guess most don’t want to deal with it and hope the problem goes away on it’s own. It would be interesting to know how much involvement area presidencies or higher have in kicking local leaders into gear.
Mary Ann,
I enjoyed your article and I thought your inward vs outward comment was thought provoking, thank you. I guess I’m struggling with the idea of Jesus directing or wanting this kind of outcome.
I like how you guys make fun of this lady when she is no more kooky than Joseph Smith and definitely a whole lot less perverted.
“Regarding the reader comment that Julie could be accused of fear-mongering (which I agree with): doesn’t church leadership in many instances actively do the same thing?”
Yes. It’s a time honored method of motivation within humanity. https://www.npr.org/2019/05/16/723937257/how-to-see-the-future-no-crystal-ball-needed
Fear-mongering should be a big red flag to take a harder look at the person/organization doing the talking. Where one places one’s trust and loyalty is huge.
“do you know of any CoC members who have actually been disciplined? To my knowledge, many if not most churches have processes in place for disciplinary action for similar kinds of things. ”
There are *many* accounts of RLDS who were “silenced” for expressing concerns/doubts to their bishops in the liberalization of the RLDS Church. Some have found homes in other organizations in the Restoration Movement.
Why can’t the church just call it insubordination? That’s the correct term.
Any books outside of Church published materials and/or the Standard Works are not appropriate to supplement Sunday School lessons. If you listen to Podcast 77 it is readily evident that Julie Rowe is Prideful, defiant, and accusatory none of which would indicate a spirit of meekness or someone that might easily be entreated. I am astounded at the number of people that are drinking the “Kool-Aid” she is selling for money and getting quite well-off from! There is a spirit of division and apostasy that emanates from her lips… Ye shall know them by their fruits!
Thanks for this MaryAnn. Always so well researched and clearly presented.
[7] Bill Reel’s podcast calling out Elder Holland as a liar is widely seen as what precipitated his December 2018 excommunication.
Even as it appears he actually lied…… multiple times
Conrad and jpv: Here’s what I noticed in my final years of membership in the RLDS.
Violation of church issues that were viewed as traditional/conservative were handled with a lot of leniency, while violation of Liberal issues were dealt with swiftly and severely. I have examples of both if anyone is interested in knowing.
“Even as it appears he actually lied…… multiple times”
“In conclusion one is left with their jaw on the floor trying to figure out why Elder Jeffrey R Holland is an habitual liar.” [https:]//mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/10/mormon-discussion-premium-elder-holland-liar-liar-pants-on-fire/
No doubt the same reason everyone is a habitual liar to varying degree. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/06/lying-hoax-false-fibs-science/
For what its worth, I also did not make “penalty oaths” in the temple in the 1980s but I prevaricate — the only penalty mentioned was if you don’t live up to the covenants you make in this temple this day you’ll be in Satans power but that’s not an oath.
I have to say, I’ve really enjoyed the discussion in these comments; good points on all sides. I just wanted to add my two cents about this topic:
The first is from Joseph Smith (which Silfo already partially quoted), in a fairly similar situation: A man was brought up to the High Council (the only ones authorized to enact church courts for excommunication and other local matters, according to Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (TPJS), p. 74) for publicly teaching some weird stuff about the Book of Revelation. Joseph said in reply, “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammelled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” (TPJS, p. 288)
The second is actually from a Pharisee in the New Testament, telling the other Pharisees to quit attacking Peter and the other apostles: they had detained these apostles for their apostate preaching about this Jesus fellow who was already dead. While they debated how to kill these guys, the Pharisee/Lawyer Gamaliel reminded them of the futility of attacking the apostles. “If this counsel or this work be of men,” he said, “it will come to naught. But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.” (Acts 5: 38-39)
This seems sensible to me: let people have and teach whatever it is they want to teach. If the teachings aren’t of God (and as Nephi often taught, asking God directly seems to clear that up; 1 Nephi 10: 19), those who follow will be frustrated, and the movement will fail all on its own. If those who put their trust in men rather than God allow themselves to be led by men to break the commandments of God, then punishment would be more fitting. But giving people their own agency, and allowing them to follow God in the way they think best, could very well lead to more people like Joseph Smith, who pierce the veil and receive the teachings God wants “even the least saint” to enjoy (TPJS, 149). If it’s not what we agree with, we have guidance on how to act in that situation: “Ye ought to say in your hearts, Let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.” (D&C 64: 9-11). Even if their deeds include “weird” teachings that makes some of us uncomfortable.
Then again, didn’t Enoch offend literally everybody at one point in his ministry? (Moses 6: 37) Should we be so afraid of becoming offended or uncomfortable in the Gospel?
If we’re comfortable in our doctrines and beliefs, should that be a warning sign to us? (2 Nephi 28: 21)
Knight writes “This seems sensible to me: let people have and teach whatever it is they want to teach.”
The founder of any belief system is perfectly free to believe anything at all, “untrammeled” is the word you used. But that person’s followers do not have that liberty. You can follow, or you can lead, but doing both at the same time is chaos. It is four ponies at a carnival walking in a circle, each following AND leading and going nowhere.
A bit too hasty, I wish there was a way to edit. In truth, all should follow and lead, but the scope of leadership is confined to one’s stewardship and my willingness to follow depends on you staying within your stewardship, all the way up and down the chain of command.
I lead in small things and follow in greater things, and the person I follow is leading in those greater things but that person is following yet greater things; until ultimately at the top of the food chain you have God, who leads all but still follows principles.
In my Navy career this principle is manifest by who can grant me leave and liberty (as an example). Not just anyone, but the designated person only. Even a captain, not in my chain of command, cannot grant me leave or liberty. There was one time I tested those waters, asked a sailor if I could take the afternoon off. “Yes”. So, off I went. When eventually located and challenged, I said, “but he said I could go!” and that produced a lecture on chain of command. But I got the afternoon off. Its an excuse, sort of, that works only once.
Fear-mongering should be a big red flag to take a harder look at the person/organization doing the talking. Where one places one’s trust and loyalty is huge.
Applies to critics of the Church too I should note. Hard not to read exmo sites such as at reddit and not see a ridiculous amount of fear mongering.
Michael 2, thanks for your replies. The “chain of command” logic does make sense, and it is what we see in all the organized churches God has instituted among men. However, it might be that such logic is only a condescension for our benefit, and is not what God truly wants for us. After all, when Moses was told by Joshua that two men (who weren’t among the Seventy that went up the mountain to talk with God; Numbers 11: 16-25) were out prophesying in the camp, he didn’t rebuke them as Joshua requested; instead, he said “Enviest thou for my sake? Would God that all men were prophets, and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them! (Numbers 11: 26-29)” Moses already tried to get all of Israel to join him on the mountain with the Lord (Exodus 19: 10-13), and they refused (Exodus 20: 18-21). In the D&C and the New Testament, this is called the “Provocation,” because the Lord wanted to make them “a kingdom of Priests,” and for them to be able to see Him as Moses had, but they refused. Likewise, Joseph Smith said “God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them” (TPJS, p. 149). True, the Lord sets up chains of command, but He seems to be at full liberty to break the chain and come directly to us, just like He did with Eldad and Medad in Moses’ time; as Paul and Nephi put it, God is no respecter of persons. The founder of a religion and that religion’s believer are the same to God.
Ultimately, rather than be considered the Head Commander of the Chain of Command, God would rather have us call Him “Father.” From the scriptures, it seems that His entire goal is to return us to His family, and for all of us to be one family with Him as the head. Even in the D&C, where the Lord details how church hierarchy ought to go, He breaks off into a tangent of way-back-when, during the time of Adam when God’s Priesthood and His Gospel was handed down in purity from father to son, in effect having a family of God, and a community of equals among these “fathers” (Abraham 1: 3). In fact, the description of Zion reflects this equality: “the Lord called His people ZION, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them” (Moses 7: 18). If there were no poor among them, it would be because they had “all things common among them (like what happened in 4 Nephi 1: 3). Knowledge of the mysteries of God is a thing. Leadership is a thing. If every “thing” we seek after, whether in the Gospel or in mortal needs, was held in equal among them, who was the leader? Did this people need to have a fellow mortal above them to tell them “know ye the Lord”? Or were they able to know the Lord for themselves? Were they able to endure Christ’s presence and be led by Him directly?
Was this a Chain of Command, or was this a Family Tree of Life?
It may be asked “But who else are we to get knowledge from? Who are we, to get knowledge from God? Aren’t the prophets supposed to lead this ship, and we just clean the deck?” Of course, such logic is assuming everyone who’s still on the ship will be promised a place at the harbor; and that the man who haphazardly did his duties, and was only kept from jumping ship by his own apathy, will earn the same reward as the captain of the boat who did all the work in steering the boat and finding the harbor. I mean, maybe he’d get a few stripes for his laziness, but he’s still there, right? It might be a little more accurate to see our condition as everyone in their own ship, listening to the cacophony of voices saying “Lo, land here!” and “Lo, land there!” and trying to get you to follow them into the rocks where they can steal your food; while a noble few say “There’s the Lighthouse. You can see it for yourself, if you’re pointed in the right way. I’ve seen it, and can describe which way you need to face, but you need to row yourself to it. But as you get closer to it, you’ll see and understand yourself and your surroundings with much greater clarity. It’ll be worth it. Trust the Light.”
In a nutshell, that’s what Joseph published in the second issue of the “Evening and Morning Star:” “Search the Scriptures–Search the revelations which we publish, and ask your Heavenly Father, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to manifest the truth unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His glory, nothing doubting, He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit. You will then know for yourselves, and not for another. You will not then be dependent on man for the knowledge of God . . . Fellow sojourners upon earth (so Joseph apparently didn’t see himself as any different than those who hearkened to his teachings), it is your privilege to purify yourselves and come up to the same glory, and SEE for yourselves, and KNOW for yourselves. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” (TPJS, p. 12-13, emphasis added)
I apologize for how long this got; when I get writing on a topic, I end up writing and writing and writing . . . and then realize I apparently had a lot to say. I mean, if something here seems correct and worthwhile, don’t forget to pray about it to make sure it’s actually from God; for all I know, this is just my opinion. But I do believe it’s true. I believe God’s goal for us is to recreate the society of equals which Zion possessed. I believe the Restoration begun through Joseph Smith wasn’t merely the restoration of ancient truths and scriptures (though it certainly did that); I believe it was also the Restoration of Joseph to the presence of God, as had happened with the Brother of Jared (Ether 2-3). And I believe such a Restoration wasn’t intended to happen to Joseph alone.
Knight writes (wonderfully well) “However, it might be that such logic is only a condescension for our benefit, and is not what God truly wants for us.”
I agree wholeheartedly that what God wants for each of his children is as you say. Problems arise in actually getting there. “Church” exists as an institution and there never yet was an institution without order. Through that church, money is collected, scriptures are published, and now websites and modern multi-media preach the word of God.
I’ve had some powerful miracles in my life, but I don’t use them to set myself up as a preacher or to judge members of the church (or at least I hope I don’t). I am very happy for someone else to be bishop. If I were an Enoch, a translated being, I would still be grateful for a 12 year old boy to bring me the tokens of the redeemer’s sacrifice, in fact, I would be more humbled by it than many other things.
That’s a very good picture you paint, Michael2; that would be humbling and edifying indeed. And there certainly are problems that arise when people attempt to act as full equals one with another, without an outside order and authority directing such action. We can see that quite a bit throughout history, and we can see the benefits of the institution which Joseph Smith founded as plentiful.
To be short in writing, here are three final notes that came to mind while I read your response:
1) The Lord’s definition of Church is fairly different from how we normally consider it, according to D&C 10: 67.
2) If an institutional “Church” is unlike the society of equals envisioned in Zion, perhaps Zion will require a shift away from institutions and run off of a completely different structure. Or is it possible for a society of equals to naturally evolve from a structured, hierarchical society?
3) There actually is a movement going on (the “remnant movement,” for lack of a better term) that is attempting to do just that: they are collecting money for the poor among themselves, are currently publishing scriptures, host websites and YouTube channels for multi-media presentations, and are working to do this without any centralized leaders or structured hierarchy. I haven’t attended their fellowships, so I don’t know exactly how that’s going, but the fact that some are practicing this chaos at all, while yet finding order and balance and truth within it, does lead me to hope for Zion.
The problem with MS and JR is that both publicly announced their excommunication, but neither gave specific details/accusations brought against them and we are left fill in the blanks and possibly get angry with the brethren who cannot defend themselves. In the end, it’s good to try and understand, but it is not our place to take sides.
Another problem is that members and nonmembers think excommunication is about punishment, when in reality, it is about removing someone from their covenants to help the offender from continuing in their condemnation for taking the Sacrament unworthily and for fighting the brethren who are trying to help them. The good news is you can come back.
MS was not excommunicated for his podcasts. He was not teaching false doctrines, he was associating with apostates who were giving him material and teaching activities that are not authorized by the church. MS has expressed his sorrow and is on his way to recovering his membership.
JR on the other hand was not humble, tried to avoid being called in, forced the brethren’s hands and when she was allowed to speak she was full of rebellion and disrespect. She too, can come in alignment with the gospel principles and recover her membership, but she most likely will not.
There is a lot about JR that is not made “public” because those who denounced her to begin with were flogged in LDS circles, banned from AVOW, and kicked from FB pages. Why? Because most LDS members don’t know their doctrines well enough to know when someone is peddling false doctrines. Here are some things that convict JR.
1. She contradicts herself. She uses inflammatory language. She sets herself up as a prophetess and seer and sells her gifts. (I highly doubt she has any gifts.) The “visions” are just click bait to get you to buy something.
2. A group of AVOW members early on complained that her book was “their visions” and they were told to stop complaining and even banned (an admin was even banned). The message of the book was more important that the validity! Then, that group approached JR and asked her about a made up vision and JR said, “Oh yes, I saw that too.” They had what they needed to prove she was making it up as she went along. She even lied on the radio that she didn’t read other visions, yet she was on AVOW for three years before she wrote a book, and not once did she mention her visions until her book.
3. She was promoting behind the scenes for her place of refuge that for $1000 you can become a captain. She would harass the people she approached by phone, “The Lord sent me to tell you that you are a captain of our place of refuge, but we need $1k from you.” If they said “no”, she would hurl insults at them, “You are not a worthy priesthood holder, you are weak, you don’t fully understand what God is saying to you and you will not get another chance.” THAT IS AFFINITY FRAUD. Using your religion to entice others to buy something.
4. At her Weber State event she was either on medication or just out of this world. When 1/3 of the room got up and left, she blamed them for bringing in bad spirits and she needed them to leave.
5. Someone needs to ask her why she fired her bookkeeper. Where did she get the $$ for her 22 acre ranch in KS shortly after he was fired? Who is auditing the foundation? (No one.) She told Hector someone would betray her and the next day she fired the bookkeeper.
6. She told a private group in Rexburg that she was sealed to 140 men in the pre-mortal live and the church will practice polyandry someday. She is a Joan of Arc and her haters will kill her in she will be resurrected in 4 days after. She admitted she is hearing from John the Revelator about events. She is really sick and confused and people just keep feeding her approval because it gives them the approval they need to continue in their own priestcraft and divination practices.
There is more, this is just scratch, but it is enough to show the brethren are very concerned and she needs to be stopped since she didn’t heed their warnings to stop. It is apostasy, it is priestcraft, and it is hurting the image and name of the church to have someone defiant and slinging mud at the brethren.
The real problem here isn’t Julie, it’s that the Church attracts or breeds such a wide variety of fringe or marginal groups. Be they anti-science (disbelievers in evolution, global warming deniers, anti-vaxxers, etc), preppers, survivalists, OT literalists, end-of-dayers, quacks, etc. Church leaders need to ask why. It needs to come out firmly on the side of science. Apostle John A. Widtsoe understood this, but no leader since.
Knight writes “There actually is a movement going on (the “remnant movement,” … without any centralized leaders or structured hierarchy.”
That sort of thing cannot be sustained. Leaders always arise and take over; hierarchies arise naturally and inevitably. That is the message of George Orwell’s “Animal Farm” and while he’s not a prophet, I have yet to see an exception to his observations. An example is “Snufferites”. Why is it Snufferites? Well it emanates from Denver Snuffer. Is he “equal” or is he “more equal”? Any time you have followers you also have a leader.
He might not have chosen to be a leader, just as Martin Luther seems not to have intended to be the founder of the Lutheran church.
The appeal of “equal” is lost on me. The impossibility of it seems clear enough.
Michael2, when you have a leadership of 15 white, elderly, male oligarchs, “equal” starts to sound very attractive.
Roger Hansen writes “when you have a leadership of 15 white, elderly, male oligarchs, equal starts to sound very attractive.”
Not to me, it is neither attractive nor unattractive. Would it be better or worse with 14 or 16? If so, why?
So Michael is it your contention that there is a defined hierarchy in Zion or the city of Enoch? What about Melchizedek’s group ? Hierarchy always fails . Our religious hierarchy has had 200 years to bring about Zion but it has failed to do so . Isn’t it time to try the one paradigm that has actually worked ?
I saw a comment about Elder Whitney Clayton being disciplined by the church. Does any one know anything about this?
Lisa, I haven’t heard anything. I would be very surprised if it were true. He spoke in public just a few months ago. https://www.mtdemocrat.com/prospecting/second-conference-on-religious-freedom/
I read Julie’s first book and barely finished reading it. It seemed to be written for 5th graders and I had extreme difficulty finishing it. I had to put it down repeatedly because it had no credibility and was patently false. Someone had given me copies of all her books and I used them for kindling. She needed to be ex’d.
It’s about time the Church recognized Julie Rowe as a fraud, but I’d say more mentally ill. Her books are silly, anyone reading them should be able to determine this. Also, I listened to her pod cast #77 on youtube, it’s almost laughable – she talks about the Savior being in the Stake Presidents office touching her shoulder when they were holding her church court and telling her it was O.K. and she claims to have seen Saten standing next to the brethern who were conducting the court. REALLY, COME ON PEOPLE, is she serious!! She claims to have had thousands of visions and saw everything about her excommunication years prior in one of her thousand visions. OK then lets ask ourselves – did the prophet Jospeh Smith have a vision of the Savior touching his shoulder through all his trials – I don’t recall Joseph Smith writing about the Savior touching his shoulder when he was being held in Liberty or the Carthage Jail. Oh, I guess the Savior only apears to Julie Rowe when she has trials, but not to Jospeh Smith!! Who was facing death!! Good one Julie Rowe – it sums it all up to one thing, Julie Rowe is mentally ill, a liar, a swindler on good peoples desparation to find healing, and a fraud – period!
Julie says says she is a messenger from God. Russell M. Nelson speaks to God. One of them no longer a member of the Church. Are they both speaking to the same God? Major conflict of interest here. My bible says when I am sick to call for the Elders to anoint me with oil and pray over me, not an energy healer. My bible tells no story that Jesus Christ ever charged anyone money to heal the sick and afflicted physically, mentally, emotionally, possessed, nor took money/set up classes with limited seating to teach others how to heal. Julie charges large sums of money to heal and to teach using gifts from God? Again, which God?
Julie Rowe lost me at multiple probations. She hasn’t talked about this before as being too sacred. Eric was initially, and rightfully disturbed by this. It fundamentally runs counter to the doctrine of Salvation. I had a girl friend in college who was clairvoyant, who seen things we normally cannot see that are other worldly. She had a dream one time where she was a lady in a 16th century setting and could describe all the articles of clothing and items. What Julie is referring to, is no different from today’s New Agers belief in reincarnation of fritting from one life to another.
Robert Monroe of the Monroe institute, that studies states of consciousness, has stated that at night we go out of body and even are able to visit other peoples lives in this state as well as many other things. Many mistake this for past lives. Memories are not destroyed, they are all recorded.
My first clue was that Julie believed that Trump had signed on to the dark side to do his bidding in this life. I can see that with Obama, Hillary and many others. But there is nothing about Trump that would set off anything more than typical flawed carnal man but with honest and good intentions, even though Constitutionally and politically ignorant. My assessment is that Julie is being deceived. Satan can tell 9 truths to get us to accept that 1 lie that has more influence at damage than all the other truths given.
I journeyed into spiritualism a few years ago and gained a greater understanding of the machinations of the spirit world. I particularly enjoyed the Automatic writings of James Padgett and George Vale Owens. I only mention these to add context to my story. Bottom line is, there are just as many agendas in the spirit realms as there are on earth. Proponents of these agendas find, or are attracted to incarnates with whom they can establish a rapport. Folk like Julie Rowe are easy targets for those spirits with a doomsday belief. Spirits are free to retain the same beliefs they had on earth and some do so stubbornly. Even though I was impressed by Julie with her first book, I now realise she was influenced by dark spirits. BTW, these spirits are more psychic than we are, given the cognitive limitations of the eartly body are removed and such pyschic abilities may impress.
I gave up on Julie and Bill Reel, years ago. They are both manifestations of the same dark energy. I would never spend my life pulling down anothers belief. Love is a much more positive force.
Julie Rowe should be looked at when it comes to Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell. all of the missing money and dead bodies piling up…. it’s pretty clear the motive is money. And oh my, collecting on life insurance policies is easy way to get large sums of money fast.
JR teaches her believers to change their lives and to buy real estate in rexburg.
Julie:
I love you. You are a beautiful spirit and your excommunication just proves that men sometimes make wrong decisions. The Lord gave you your gifts just to bless the lives of many of us. Was The Lord wrongfully making this promise in Joel 2:28? “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall have visions”. I wish we had more daughters like you prophesying, more old men dreaming dreams and more young men having visions. I have come to God in long fasting and prayer, begging Him to receive a gift like yours…. any gift of the Spirit. I got nothing, but an increased appreciation for spirits like you who are not only a voice of warning but a comforting voice in the tough times ahead, when God will transform us into His terrestrial and celestial people by taking us through the purifying wilderness. You are accomplishing your mission and many of us appreciate your effort. Blessings.
After experiencing a worldwide pandemic, a look back makes us all realize that instead of being asked to leave everything behind, we were all told repeatedly for over a year to shelter in place= the exact opposite of all that Julie Rowe preaches. Julie Rowe is a clueless space cadet and all UT idiots, including psycho path Mormon family members are willing victims of her toxic end of the world deceitful spew.