Over the years, I have probably sat in over 300 interviews by church leaders with authority/stewardship over me. I was the “interviewee” in these cases. This includes youth interviews, Temple Recommend interviews, Mission Pres interviews, interviews for callings, Home teaching Personal Priesthood Interviews (PPIs), and monthly interviews by my Stake President while I was bishop. In not one of these interviews did the person doing the interview show any apparent “discernment” about the truthfulness of what I was telling him (and it was ALWAYS a him!). There was never a case of the interviewer saying “the spirit tells me……..”. Not even my bishop during my teenage years had any discernment when questions about my little factory production rates were often answered by me with “carefully worded denials”. [1]
On the other hand, I have probably been the “interviewer” over 2000 times. This includes interviewing people for baptism as a district and zone leader while on my mission, conducting PPIs as an EQP (twice), being a bishops councilor (twice, once in a YSA ward) and then Bishop for five years. Towards the end of my time as bishop , I became really good at “reading people”. I could tell from their body language when they were being less than truthful. I could tell when they were telling part of the truth, but were withholding something. But I never attributed this talent to spiritual discernment, or to some power endowed upon me due to my calling. I just got good at reading people.
My discernment capabilities are about the same as a person in Human Resources that does job interviews for a living.
I think confirmation bias plays a roles in this. When a leader does “discern” that a person is not being truthful, and then it comes out they were right, it sticks to their memory, and reinforces the idea of discernment. But when they get it wrong, they soon forget it.
Have you seen examples of discernment from a church leader? Have any of you felt the spirit give you discernment as part of your calling? And if so, how did you differentiate that from just human intuition that any good parent has when dealing with a teenage child?
[1] this is the phrase used in the essay on plural marriage used to explain Joseph Smith’s lies about polygamy.
Wheat & Tares 
See D&C 46:27 (and 1 Cor. 12:10). The gift of discernment given to bishops and other leaders has nothing to do with discerning whether members are honest in interviews generally, according to our scripture. But like a few other matters, the gift of discernment has become unrooted from its scriptural basis and has collected meanings from cultural Mormonism. Some portion of this cultural baggage is likely error, so our common understanding of the gift of discernment likely includes some error.
I’ve been told that I have an expressive face, but in my experience, people very often misread my expressions. (They think I’m angry, or tired, or upset, when in reality I am just thinking hard about something.) This goes for bishops, too. They sometimes incorrectly assume stuff about what is going on with me. So I am skeptical about this gift of discernment thing. Perhaps some bishops have it, but I haven’t really seen it in interviews.
Back in my newbie missionary days, we had a general authority come visit us. In so many ways he was hugely inspirational to me. But one of the things he did was line us all up and walk down that line, shaking hands and looking us each deep in the eye. He’d visited before, so I was warned in advance that he was going to do this. The other missionaries called it something like using his prophetic gift of discernment. The whole thing scared the living daylights out of me. I really thought he’d be able to read my mind and spent a ton of time repenting beforehand so I had nothing for him to see. Then when it was my turn and he looked in my eyes, I STILL felt this overwhelming guilt for not being a good enough missionary.
Afterwards, I realized that it was all for show. I happened to know that there were missionaries in my zone with some serious problems breaking some serious rules. The GA didn’t catch any of that. And perhaps he never meant to. My guess is he meant to do exactly what he did do: Manipulated/Scare us emotionally to get us to examine our behavior ourselves. It worked on me, a missionary who was genuinely giving her all to begin with. It seemed to make no difference to the missionaries with girlfriends who spent all day, every day hanging out at the arcades.
At the end of the day, I think ji is right and the way I was taught ‘discernment’ isn’t related to the original idea.
And emotional manipulation is just wrong.
I had this all answered, then it vanished. Well, second time around will be more succinct anyway.
“Have you seen examples of discernment from a church leader?”
Yes; dramatically so at times but I would also rate it as rare to extremely rare.
“Have any of you felt the spirit give you discernment as part of your calling?”
Yes to that, too; and not always as part of a calling per se. Parenting, giving a talk at church, sensing the actual spiritual authority of a leader.
“And if so, how did you differentiate that from just human intuition that any good parent has when dealing with a teenage child?”
Discernment by the power of the Holy Ghost has a difficult to describe quality to it; clarity, purity, focus. As this is a gift of God, it really is just your own discernment but augmented as needed. If you have excellent natural discernment you won’t really need the Holy Ghost. I have very little natural discernment and rely on the Holy Ghost for many things.
Discernment is often just a cover for other sources. For example, on my mission, my companion read my journal and outed me as gay to everyone in the mission without my knowledge. At my next interview with the mission president, he straight up asked me if I was gay, pretending that it was just a hunch he’d received from the Spirit. It took me months to learn that I had been outed and that my mission president had an earthly source. Still a little upset about that.
I spent a good part of my career teaching both line managers and human resource professionals on how to conduct employment interviews. Early on in my career I worked with one of the pioneers in the area of employment interviews Dr. Tom Janz. Our research and that of others lead to the development of what is called behaviour description interviewing.
What I can tell you from the research is that every person that we have ever studied fails miserably when it comes to interviewing skills. Yet they all say the same thing. They say they can fool most interviewers and at the same time they say that they can detect liars better than most. This very human tendency is called the fundamental attribution error and the whole field of social psychology is based on researching the consequences of this fact.
Now does this mean that the “spirit of discernment” isn’t a real thing? And the answer is of course not. But without any objective data there is no way of knowing for sure. So until we have some metric we will have to take it on faith the question of whether the spirit of discernment is real or not.
But to suggest that the spirit of discernment is real in your life and not that of your fellow bishops given the fact of the fundamental attribution error gives me pause.
All the best,
Bob
I’m sorry to hear examples of unrighteous dominion and unethical bahavioir masquerading as discernment. I know it happens.
I lament the fact that discernment is frequently missing from our ranks. Why did Helmut Hubner’s leaders excommunicate him? Why did LDS voters enthusiastically vote in a state attorney general with an unparalleled web of corruption? (I’m referring to a recent former AG.) Why do we (of all people) have a massive problem with affinity fraud? And finally, what is going on with our institutional and popular support for a particular political movement and politician exploiting Christian identity for frigtenengly wicked ends? It seems that if something is wrapped in the cross or a flag, we can’t help but signing up.
All I can say is that I think that despite the fact we are completely inept ans at times unwilling to weird this Gift, I believe that true discernment exists. It’s rare, but I don’t deny it. I have known LDS people who I can only compare to Yoda. I have seen miracles where patriarchs and parents, individuals and leaders have seen with spiritual eyes- when service is required or when some humbly seek truth and aren’t willing to take shortcuts.
Mortimer writes “Why do we (of all people) have a massive problem with affinity fraud?”
I’d love to answer but I have no idea what is affinity fraud. Seems to be this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_fraud
Ah so, the problem starts with “we”. Since I am not a we I seem to be unaffected by this phenomenon.
“what is going on with our institutional and popular support for a particular political movement and politician exploiting Christian identity for frigtenengly wicked ends?”
Each person’s answer is likely to be very different but obtaining similar results.
As you have revealed little in your question I will reveal little in my answer: It seems to be a difference between a candidate that is definitely hostile to my religion and wishes to wipe out some fundamental liberties versus one that pretends somewhat to honor my religion and liberties. Seems pretty easy to me.
I hate the concept of using body language as a lie detector. Someone like me has extreme anxiety being 1 on 1, especially with Leadership. That causes fidgeting, sweating and other manifestations of anxiety. Now throw in the idea that the leader is possibly reading that as me being guilty and that just exacerbates the situation… that’s where I start to wonder if church is really worth it. Thank goodness they moved Temple Recommends to every 2 years.
I haven’t yet made up my mind about discernment, at least in an LDS spiritual context. I have concluded, though, that bishops/SPs/MPs/GAs do not possess divinely bestowed lie detecting abilities or clairvoyance in connection with their priesthood keys and offices, and we should be working to dispel this myth, especially among our impressionable young people. As a youth, I remember being scared to death of bishops interviews, believing that he could read my thoughts–I hadn’t done anything inappropriate, but I had the active imagination of a typical teenage boy and I internalized fear-based lessons about thinking about sins being as bad as doing them, and of sexual sins being next to murder. With age, I learned that bishops are just imperfect men muddling along with the rest of us, and ultimately they don’t know anything you don’t tell them. And I don’t have to tell him anything I don’t want to.
In another instance, I fudged my way through a temple recommend interview once, using “carefully worded denials” (to be fair, the bishop was taking liberties with the questions, going off script and probing deeper than he should have) so I told him what I thought he wanted to hear, nothing more. At the end of the interview, he said to me, smiling, “Brother Hughes, I believe you meet the standards of worthiness to enter the House of the Lord, and the Spirit has confirmed to me the same.” I left the meeting with a recommend in my hand and even more doubt about the supposed power of discernment.
As a bishop once and counselor in two bishoprics I didn’t feel discernment or prompting when someone was lying but like the OP said I developed a bit of a sixth sense when I felt something wasn’t connecting. If it was a situation in which I was trying to help them (e.g. counseling or mentoring) I often asked follow – up questions, but during worthiness interviews I rarely did. If someone didn’t want to tell me they weren’t paying a full tithe or a teenager was accelerating his “little factory” I rarely asking for more than a yes/no. The main exception to this was pre-mission interviews, knowing that the MTC is a pressure cooker of guilt. I honestly did it trying to do them a favor, not wanting them to come home early because they “forgot” to tell their bishop something.
I will say that in my experience as bishop many people assume you automatically know if they are lying or not. It’s very weird to be talking to someone when they think you have a supernatural power to discern whether they are telling the truth.
It’s interesting that so much of ‘discernment’ as used in the church is about catching someone doing something wrong. That seems so off when thinking of discernment as a gift of the spirit. I can’t imagine Christ saying, “I bless you with the gift to catch all the errors of your fellow man so you can judge him.’
ReTx writes “That seems so off when thinking of discernment as a gift of the spirit.”
I agree. I believe God and Jesus are not interested in your personal sins being known to others (and aren’t particularly interested in them at all).
So what exactly is being discerned? Spirits. Remember this was a time when many people were claiming to have revelations and visits from spirits. They exist in vast numbers and vary in intelligence and holiness.
Discernment is sufficiently difficult and rare that Jesus advised to not try to test spirits, but rather look at the fruit that is eventually borne. A good tree bears good fruit. If you don’t know whether the tree is good or bad, wait for the fruit. But sometimes that might be waiting a long time (and your judgment of fruit might be off a bit).
Gift of discernment of spirits (it isn’t a lie detector): 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The way I see it, if you humble yourself and confess Jesus is come in the flesh (it must be said exactly that way to persuade an inerrantist, otherwise some variation of it will suffice) will reveal that your spirit is godly even if you also have sins, maybe grievous sins. Conversely if you imagine yourself sinless, or nearly so, yet fail to humble yourself or acknowledge Jesus Christ, then your spirit, or the one you heed, is not of God.
It has essentially nothing to do with sins and it is not a “lie detector”.. A good example for study is Korihor; Alma discerns that Korihor has been deceived. In that particular case, Korihor ought to have wondered that if this spirit can appear and say there is no God, how is it that there’s a spirit? God is simply the chiefest of spirits. I also wonder why Korihor went to the trouble; but it seems he developed a following and probably enjoyed the attention he was getting.
I think it definitely happens. I won’t relate the experiences I’ve had on both sides of things. (I’ve thankfully never been a Bishop or even Elders Quorum President but have felt like I’ve had discernment in personal events or giving blessing numerous times) The best example I can think of that I’d be willing to relate was when I was 12 and giving my first talk at Church. When I got up to the stand I found out that the closing speaker was none other than Pres. Tanner (counselor in the 1st Presidency a few months before his death). I was terribly nervous and couldn’t help but think of everything bad I’d done that week. I felt like he could see right through me. While that could easily be psychologically explained on me projecting, the way he seemed to know exactly what to say to me. It was an amazing experience that has stuck with me all the years since.
Discounting for body language, microexpressions, and street savvy, I still think there have been some spiritual discernment occasions in my life. However, in retrospect those few occasions are unpredictable, and my interpretation has turned out wrong at least as much as right. So I wouldn’t say “never” but I sure wouldn’t build a practice or principle around “discernment.”